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Dan Dare
04-04-2008, 02:49 AM
Knowing how big a big fan you’ve become of David Goodhart, BC, I wonder what you make of this piece which is a follow-up in a sense to the earlier one on ‘Progressive Nationalism’ (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1785220,00.html ) which got the hard-core leftie-liberals all in a tizzy.

The argument is basically that, since citizenship makes little sense without a nation-state to confer it, immigration policies only make sense insofar as they put the interests of present citizens ahead of anyone else. As Goodhart puts it: “Without fellow-citizen favouritism, the nation-state ceases to have much meaning.” And again per Goodhart “… most of the things that liberals desire - democracy, redistribution, welfare states, human rights - only work when one can assume the shared norms and solidarities of national communities.” (ie nation-states).

As far as I can see the only the philosophical distinction between Goodhart’s position and the BNP’s vis-à-vis immigration is that the former favours ‘citizens’ while the latter favours ‘indigenes’.

Would you agree?


The baby-boomers finally see sense on immigration

David Goodhart, The Observer, Sunday February 24 2008

Last week's green paper on immigration and citizenship used a rhetoric that would have been unthinkable 10 years ago. Jacqui Smith, the Home Secretary, talked about 'earned citizenship' and restricting certain welfare benefits to those who have achieved full citizenship, after at least six years 'on probation'. This is the same government that has overseen the biggest-ever migration into Britain and has been more positive about minority rights, multiculturalism and an 'open Britain' than any in our history. Grasping this apparent conflict requires an understanding of the learning curve of the liberal, baby-boom generation.

Most of today's cabinet were students in the 1970s and 1980s. If their student union had been debating the motion 'The nation-state is a bloodstained anachronism', most of them would probably have voted for it. And why not? I was there too and we were growing up in the shadow of nationalism's 20th-century horrors. Indeed, we liberal baby-boomers were children of a historic shift in Western political attitudes in which the ancient ideal of the moral equality of all humans came to be enshrined in both national and international law, most famously in the UN Declaration of Human Rights in 1948. Only 30 years before, a proposal that a clause on racial equality be included in the covenant of the League of Nations was rejected by all the major Western powers. Yet by the 1950s, after two world wars and the Holocaust, nationalism, at least in the West, had been partly discredited and the legitimacy of racial and even social hierarchies was shattered. For the first time, the idea of equal citizenship, both within and between countries, began to become a reality; indeed, it was one of the driving forces behind the generational upheaval of the 1960s.

Link to full article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/feb/24/immigration.immigrationpolicy)

Baron_Corvo
04-04-2008, 10:10 AM
Thanks for that piece Dan; the comments section following the article is (taken in combination with it) enough reading for a weekend. I'll get back to you.

Felix the Cat
04-04-2008, 10:32 AM
The obvious reason for this sudden change of heart is the escalating conflict between a large section of the immigrant population and the middle class lefties who were their traditional allies and protectors

Baron_Corvo
04-08-2008, 08:48 PM
I don't really have a lot to say about this. Basically yes, you're right, but the devil is in the detail; many of those people (citizens but not indigenes) have made lives, brought up families and built up careers here which have made contributions to our society. Booting them out of the UK is a very different matter from not allowing any more of their erstwhile countrymen into the UK.

I was very impressed with the "Comments" section though, which covered pretty much everything we discuss on MSF where the UK is concerned. I often find (some of) the comments in the Guardian's CiF are better than the original article.