'One in three Provos was a British agent'

[Felix the Cat]

'One in three Provos was a British agent' (http://www.sundaylife.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=677366)

UP to 30pc of the IRA's membership were on the payroll of British Intelligence.

That's the startling claim made by intelligence expert and author Nigel West.

West - the former Tory MP Rupert Allason - suggests that, in the run-up to the IRA's 1994 ceasefire and the peace process that followed, a staggering one-in-three Provos was working for the British.

West claims they were being controlled by the shadowy intelligence unit the Joint Services Group (JSG) and its forerunner, the Force Research Unit (FRU).

The claim of 30pc penetration of the IRA is made in West's new book, which reveals the secret stories of his A-to-Z of espionage.

In a reference to the Joint Services Group, West claims: "This organisation played a big role in the penetration and elimination of the Provisional IRA.

"By the time the peace process has been initiated, it was estimated that up to 30pc of the Provisionals' membership were on the British payroll."

Throughout the Troubles, the republican movement was plagued by agents working for the Security Services while also being card-carrying members of the IRA and Sinn Fein.

They included:

• Eamon Collins - a former IRA man who was battered to death in Newry in January 1999;

• Gregory Burns, John Dignam and Aidan Starrs - murdered and dumped by the roadside in south Armagh in July 1992, and, most recently;

• Denis Donaldson - Sinn Fein's head of administration at Stormont who was unmasked before Christmas.

[Basil Fawlty]

Gregory Burns, John Dignam and Aidan Starrs - murdered and dumped by the roadside in south Armagh in July 1992, and, most recently;If they were spies then they were executed not murdered.

[Arthur Daley]

There's I've no real doubt that the IRA is riddled with spies; just as I know that Tory MP's - & spy experts - are inveterate liars...

[cerberus]

If they were spies then they were executed not murdered.
As far as I am aware , the various paramilitary groupings are not part of the legal system in Ireland ( North or South) and as such their killings are regarded (both North and South) as being murder.
The people who disappeared into bogs and sand dunes , were these people "executed" ?
"Executed" is just a nice word for murdered.
When you wait 25 years to bury your mother it must be comforting to know that she was not murdered , merely "executed".
Very "comforting".
http://irelandsown.net/mcconville.html

http://www.cain.ulster.ac.uk/issues/violence/mckittrick.htm

A book worth buying if you don't already have it , nothing clean or nice about what has gone on in the past 30 years.

[Arthur Daley]

Wilfully interfering with a legitamite war of liberation is indeed an excecution.
The sentiments of the relatives, though most unfortunate, should not be a distraction.

I believe the McConville woman was warned on many occasions to cease spying for the British which directly jeopardised IRA personel..

[cerberus]

Steve, let's be honest here , that is something which you can't stand over and which Gerry Adams would agree is not factual.
If you wish to believe it that is fine.
Silence and denial for 25 years ,it does tend to errode the "legitamite" action of the "Army" more than a little.

[Arthur Daley]

Steve, let's be honest here , that is something which you can't stand over and which Gerry Adams would agree is not factual.
If you wish to believe it that is fine.
Methinks Adams threads the path of duplicity in respect to the line he presents to the public & the line he gives to the army council. Nevertheless the IRA - an organisation that resists two illegitamite unjust states - on this level I agree with that interpretation - McConville's execution was entirely legitamite especially in light of the exceptional leverage granted to her to desist in supplying information to the authorities. Rather stupidly she ignored that. Its not without tragedy. As I understand it she continued to spy having being prompted by her RUC handlers..

[cerberus]

Your sources are ??

[Arthur Daley]

Your sources are ??
Ed Molloy regales us with the particulars. If his interpretation is accurate then I stand by by my post. If it significantly differs I reserve judgement on the matter.

[cerberus]

I am a doubting Thomas in issues like this.
There is a lot of dirty washing on all sides , most of which won't come out for years , possibly not in my lifetime.
I don't see dirty tricks being a one way street and I don't see PIRA being any different.
It would certainly have been easier for them ( if she were an "operative") to have come out and said so at the time.

[Basil Fawlty]

Spys and traitors are shot in wartime.

[cerberus]

The Irish and British goverments would say otherwise.It could be arugued that the British would not need a yellow card in time of war.
Perhaps the family of Garda McCabe would view this differently ?

[Basil Fawlty]

As I said, spies and traitors are shot in wartime.

It may have escaped the notice of some people, but the legitimacy of the two states on that island has been a matter of dispute since their inception.

[Basil Fawlty]

Naming is all-important. When you call someone a 'terrorist' you are taking sides. For example, those who like to protray the resistance movement in Iraq as 'terrorists' are clearly taking the side of the invader by adopting his rhetoric. In fact it is the invader who is the terrorist, that is, if we insist on using such terms in the first place.

Similarly, those who support partition will obviously support the Crown Forces, British government rhetoric, and that of the free state. Those of us who do not, will use a different set of names to describe these events and groups etc.

[Jonathan]

the IRA - an organisation that resists two illegitamite unjust states
Which are btw?

[Basil Fawlty]

Which are btw?There are only two states on the island, therefore . . .

[Basil Fawlty]

What is important here is the question of naming. The choice of words one uses to describe the same events can radically alter the nature and meaning of those events.

murder - execution
invader - liberator
terrorist - resistance fighter

and so on, one could cataolgue a whole set of these terms in binary fashion where in each case the event itself is not in contention, but the naming.

For example, one could look at the British and Irish newspapers of the period 1916 - 1922 and find (as J.J. Lee did in his now famous book on modern Irish history) that the language of demonisation (of the IRA) is really no different then to what it is now. But no one now except people like Kevin Myers and his fellow travellers would dream of describing the leaders of 1916, or Dan Breen et al as "terrorists" - no more than any American would dream of calling George Washington and his colleagues terrorists.

Modern warfare - warfare in the age of the mass media - relies heavily on propaganda, which often comes down to a simple question of terminology.

[Jonathan]

There are only two states on the island, therefore . . .
Force majeur asside, I think it's a stretch of the imagination to suggest that the Rep. is illegitimate.

[Basil Fawlty]

Force majeur asside, I think it's a stretch of the imagination to suggest that the Rep. is illegitimate.Well, there are a number of ways of coming at this. Firstly, it was a FG teeshock who unilateraly declared the Free State to be the Republic. But the real argument centres on the 1918 general election which was the only time the whole island was consulted together. The mandate was very clear on that ocassion. By legitimacy here I mean primarily moral legitimacy which must be there in order for the legal kind to have more than the status of force majeur.

My view is that De Valera was acutely aware of the illegitimacy issue arising from partition, and the failure to implement the 1918 mandate which is why he included 2+3 in the 1937 Constitution. This granted the present state a kind of conditional legitimacy which was a very clever move by Dev. But the GFA and the removal of those articles by a portion of the populace removes the last vestige of legitimacy.

Personally I acknolwedge the de facto existence of the state here and all that that entails but not its moral existence.

[Jonathan]

Firstly, it was a FG teeshock who unilateraly declared the Free State to be the Republic.
What's wrong with Taoiseach ?

On that decission, do you think that the majority of the population would have been against it, had it been put to a referendum (party loyalties aside) ?

But the GFA and the removal of those articles by a portion of the populace removes the last vestige of legitimacy.
Jurisdiction |Yes |No |Turnout
Northern Ireland |676,966 (71%) |274,879 (29%) |81%
Republic of Ireland |1,442,583 (94%) |85,748 (6%) |56%

Would you not consider that to be a sizeable mandate?

Personally I acknolwedge the de facto existence of the state here and all that that entails but not its moral existence.
Fair enough.

[Basil Fawlty]

What's wrong with Taoiseach ?Lighten up. :p
What do you think of Tawnishtah?
On that decission, do you think that the majority of the population would have been against it, had it been put to a referendum (party loyalties aside) ?I have no idea.


Jurisdiction |Yes |No |Turnout
Northern Ireland |676,966 (71%) |274,879 (29%) |81%
Republic of Ireland |1,442,583 (94%) |85,748 (6%) |56% Two separate questions put in two separate jurisdictions. I will address this at greater length later on
Would you not consider that to be a sizeable mandate?
No, I do not consider that anything but the evidence of a people (south) duped into voting away the inalienable rights of their separated brethren.

[Jonathan]

Lighten up. :p
What do you think of Tawnishtah?
Please forgive me. I'm a bit touchy these days about the whole Irish Language/West-Brit issue since Enda's new proposal.

Two separate questions put in two separate jurisdictions. I will address this at greater length later on
No rush.

No, I do not consider that anything but the evidence of a people (south) duped into voting away the inalienable rights of their separated brethren.
Duped? Maybe so, but it's the responcibility of the electorate to make a decision. One could argue that any sort of referendum is based on duping people. (Perhaps we'll get to the bones of this when you've expanded on the "two seperate questions issue").

[Jonathan]

Do you think that a majority "no" vote would have been returned if the electorate of the whole Island of Ireland (and it's islands et al.) had been asked the question put to the Rep?

This question isn't just aimed at all the gallery btw.

[Basil Fawlty]

Do you think that a majority "no" vote would have been returned if the electorate of the whole Island of Ireland (and it's islands et al.) had been asked the question put to the Rep?

This question isn't just aimed at all the gallery btw.If it was an all-Ireland plebiscite the question would have been different.

If the question - all-Ireland - was Brits out then the majority would I'm sure have voted that way.

However, I don't have the same love for liberal democracy that you have so it hardly matters.

More later!

[Jonathan]

If it was an all-Ireland plebiscite the question would have been different.
That's not what I asked :p

However, I don't have the same love for liberal democracy that you have so it hardly matters.
Perhaps you should get involved in some of the discussions about Government types that are going on - when you get a break from the whole holocaust/holohoax debacle.

[Basil Fawlty]

That's not what I asked :pBut yours was an artifical question. If the whole island was asked to delete 2+3 the majority would have been greater because every unionist would have been out to vote for it.

But I am vindicated. I said before GFA (in fact right back at the beginning of the so-called "peace process" (read: shafting process) to people that we would pass the thing and they would do absolutely nothing. I was right. We have given up everything from arms right through to sovereignty, they have given up nothing.


Perhaps you should get involved in some of the discussions about Government types that are going on - when you get a break from the whole holocaust/holohoax debacle.Thank you for that thought.
My friend has now taken to calling me a white supremacist!! Can you believe it? :rofl:

[Jonathan]

But yours was an artifical question. If the whole island was asked to delete 2+3 the majority would have been greater because every unionist would have been out to vote for it.
Would the unionists be entitled to vote on it IYO?


Thank you for that thought.
My friend has now taken to calling me a white supremacist!! Can you believe it? :rofl:
That's to be expected. It's nearly always the knee-jerk response. Once upon a time, I was branded "anti-White". Shit happens.

[Basil Fawlty]

Would the unionists be entitled to vote on it IYO?On what?

If there was an all-Ireland plebiscite where the quetsion was 'Brits out' then of course they should vote in it, why not?


That's to be expected. It's nearly always the knee-jerk response. Once upon a time, I was branded "anti-White". Shit happens.Yes I remember that. Rather amusing now in hindsight.
Its really just trouble making for its own sake.

[Jonathan]

On what?
Just any Island wide plebiscite.

If there was an all-Ireland plebiscite where the quetsion was 'Brits out' then of course they should vote in it, why not?
I'm not saying they shouldn't.

Yes I remember that. Rather amusing now in hindsight.
Its really just trouble making for its own sake.
Rather. I don't think dave777 will be back for a long time though. I still keep the last PM he sent me, where he detailed his reasons for leaving. :(

[Basil Fawlty]

Just any Island wide plebiscite.I suppose so.



Rather. I don't think dave777 will be back for a long time though. I still keep the last PM he sent me, where he detailed his reasons for leaving. :(Is that saddness at his departure or for something he said to you in the pm?
He did keep us all amused though (in a slightly irritating sort of way).

[Jonathan]

Is that saddness at his departure or for something he said to you in the pm?
At his departure. The PM was not offensive at all, in fact, it was unusually respectful. I'm not going to post up what he said because that would be unfair to him, but all I'll say is that someone[not me] gave him a bad scare, and that's why he left.

[Basil Fawlty]

At his departure. The PM was not offensive at all, in fact, it was unusually respectful. I'm relieved to hear that because I have to say I really quite liked the guy, for all his loopiness. He always cheered me up with his rep comments and his posts. I'm not going to post up what he said because that would be unfair to him, but all I'll say is that someone[not me] gave him a bad scare, and that's why he left.That's quite understandable.

[Will Scarlet]

but all I'll say is that someone[not me] gave him a bad scare, and that's why he left.


Turnabout is fair play.