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View Full Version : Was the Allied Bombing of Civilians in WWII a Necessity or a Crime? - book review


Hakluyt
02-07-2006, 07:53 PM
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2102-2018820,00.html

The Sunday Times February 05, 2006

Among The Dead Cities: Was the Allied Bombing of Civilians in WWII a Necessity or a Crime? by AC Grayling
Reviewed by MICHAEL BURLEIGH

Bloomsbury £20 pp379

Since the 1990s, the shame regarding the Nazi past that haunted West Germany’s public culture (East Germany had no reason to apologise for German “imperialism and militarism”) has been supplanted by a gathering mood of self-pity. Since the war, of course, the far right has sought to lighten Nazi criminality by darkening the Allied record, the difference being that nowadays a subtler version of this approach has leached into mainstream German culture.

Novelists have invited us to empathise with ethnic German expellees or civilians killed by Allied bombers, although only Bernhard Schlink sought sympathy for an illiterate former concentration-camp guard in his The Reader. Historians have contributed to this sense of German grievance, with studies (again) of the Allied strategic bombing campaign, or the depredations of the invading Red Army. The recent film Downfall depicted not just the German people, but also army and SS men, as hapless victims of a psychotic who regarded them all as expendable.

The media don AC Grayling is fully aware of this German cultural context in his judicial-cum-moral audit of RAF Bomber Command’s strategic bombing campaign. He repeatedly distances himself in Among the Dead Cities from continuing efforts to “relativise” Nazi criminality through reference to German civilian suffering. So far, so good.

From the start, he asserts his local patriotic credentials. The boy Grayling liked to make model fighters or to swoop around with his arms outstretched in imitation of a wartime aircraft. To cover himself from outraged former wing commanders, he strives to imagine the courage of those young airmen who night after night lumbered across the North Sea through flak to drop tons of bombs on enemy cities. With something halfway to self-knowledge, Grayling writes: “To be told after the war, and moreover by people who never had to face the dangers they faced, that they had been party to the commission of a moral crime, and in the retrospective light of subsequent international law a legal crime also, must understandably feel like a bitter insult.” That sentence, with its lawyerly precision, gives the game away regarding what this book seeks to do, although one suspects that it is British and American pilots operating over Afghanistan, Iraq and, perhaps, Iran whom the professor would like to see in the dock rather than the elderly veterans of Bomber Command.

Among the Dead Cities is not a satisfactory historical account of the RAF Bomber Command and USAAF campaigns against Germany and Japan. Anyone looking for that should read the works of, among others, Sebastian Cox, Max Hastings, Richard Overy or Ronald Schaffer, or the histories of specific raids by Martin Middlebrook or Frederick Taylor. In a couple of chapters Grayling takes us from Giulio Gavotti, tossing four grenades out of his cockpit during the Italo-Turkish Libyan war in 1911, to the atom bombs dropped on Japan. Regarding the second world war, Grayling tells the familiar tale whereby the inaccuracy of bombing technologies when employed over cloud-covered northern Europe led both sides to abandon restricted targeting in favour of indiscriminate bombing of civilians. The prospect of a decisive blow, using the only force the British had available to strike directly at Hitler’s Germany, went together with a comprehensible desire to wreak revenge on an enemy that was killing thousands of civilians in British cities. As Arthur “Bomber” Harris commented as he watched flames circling St Paul’s cathedral, “ Well, they are sowing the wind.”

Harris took over at Bomber Command in February 1942, bent on making Germany reap the whirlwind. He dispatched ever-larger fleets of bombers to rain incendiary and high-explosive bombs across entire urban areas, in the belief that such raids would give Nazi Germany the obliterating shock that would collapse its civilian morale and wartime economy. Anything else, whether the tactical use of bombers or an American-style focus on eliminating fuel plants or ball-bearing factories, was a diversionary “panacea”. The campaign assumed a deadly momentum (more vividly conveyed in the 2004 documentary film Fog of War than in Grayling’s book), as the raids on Hamburg in the summer of 1943 and Dresden and Tokyo in 1945 proved to devastating effect.

A more modestly conceived book, Firestorm (Pimlico £8.99) by Paul Addison and a team of experts, examines in detail the fate of Dresden. Defenders of area bombing point to the part the bombing campaign played in showing Stalin that the West was fighting, rather than spectating, as the Soviets suffered huge casualties, and to the German resources it diverted (notably clean-up crews and guns that might otherwise have been deployed against the Russians).

The interdiction of key transport hubs effectively cut the German economy up into disconnected fragments.

Opponents prefer to highlight the lack of impact upon either the German economy, or civilian morale, which in any event was less significant in a totalitarian state than in a democracy. They also echo the minority in wartime Britain who had serious moral reservations about a strategy that, as Grayling concedes, was not a crime under the laws of war at the time. He insinuates that Bomber Command was attempting, not to win a deadly war of national survival, but covertly to implement the long-term destruction of German industrial civilisation as envisaged in the Morgenthau plan to reagrarianise Germany, although he fails to show that Harris and his colleagues were even aware of a project that was soon abandoned.

While Grayling’s discussion of the ethics of bombing does not improve on a rather good book on that very subject by Stephen Garrett, who did not feel the same desire to “iterate” as compulsively as the philosopher, he fully enters into the spirit of his own time, with his lawyerly attempt retrospectively to criminalise Bomber Command under laws that only became explicit after the war in the 1977 Additional Protocol to the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention — that is, 32 years later.

Huge tracts of international law are reprinted by Grayling, their soporific effect only fitfully dispelled by bizarre comparisons between British raids on Hamburg and the atomic bombing of Hiroshima with the terrorist murders of 9/11. While Grayling implicitly regrets that he can’t haul wartime Allied airmen into the International Criminal Court that he dearly wishes to see established, the purpose of his book is to increase the likelihood that contemporary American (and British) pilots will face that prospect every time one of their precision bombs hits a collateral target. Lawyers already abound at the United States Central Command in Florida. If Grayling has his way, they’ll be scuttling along beside the pilots on the runways. Perhaps they should be encouraged to get into the cockpits, giving backseat driving a whole new meaning? And then there’s the matter of compensating the Germans, although Grayling is far too fastidious to connect lawyers with money via the word grabbing.

Dan Dare
02-07-2006, 08:02 PM
A few days early but this may serve to kick off our annual Dresden event.

Fade, did you manage to round up any of the Third Reich nostalgics yet?

Recommended reading (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060006765/qid=1139346104/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/002-8378164-6776821?s=books&v=glance&n=283155)

Sinclair
02-07-2006, 08:18 PM
It wasn't just Germans... The occupied countries got hit as well. Didn't the Western Allies heavily bomb some portions of France in the lead-up to Overlord to convince the Germans they were landing somewhere they weren't?

Necessary, and perhaps good in terms of what was accomplished, and not to be blamed on the individual crewmen, but not right objectively.

Sulla the Dictator
02-07-2006, 09:20 PM
Its impossible to fight a World War with your hands tied behind your back. Considering the behaviour of German soldiers in the field, the slaughter of millions in organized death camps, the bombing and shelling of Allied cities in the Netherlands, Poland, the Ukraine, and Russia, the German people should count themselves lucky that we didn't drop an atomic bomb on them instead of our conventional ones.

Sinclair
02-07-2006, 10:27 PM
Bit over the top there Sulla. Nuking Germany would have been a pretty bad long-term strategic decision.

The American public at the time would probably have objected a lot more to nuking Germans than Japanese. Wasn't public opinion much more negative towards the Japanese than the Germans then?

Thomas777
02-07-2006, 10:33 PM
Bit over the top there Sulla. Nuking Germany would have been a pretty bad long-term strategic decision.

The American public at the time would probably have objected a lot more to nuking Germans than Japanese. Wasn't public opinion much more negative towards the Japanese than the Germans then?

The Manhattan Project was initiated for the purpose of developing an atomic weapon to use against the Third Riech. The OSS was convinced that the Germans were close to developing their own atomic weapons, and Roosevelt (with Churchill's enthusiastic endorsement) adopted a strategic posture of "Germany first" in fighting the Axis powers.

I have no doubt that if the Germans had defeated the Reds at Kursk and if the D-Day landings had failed, the USA would have launched an atomic attack against Germany as soon as the bomb was operational.

cerberus
02-07-2006, 10:48 PM
Without the Mustang the 8th USAF would not have been been able to operate in daylight , they had already been taken to the edge of defeat prior tp its arrival.
The British and the Axis had both found that daylight bombing was beyond them, night bombing was the only alternative.
The only reason why bombing of British Cities did not continue was simple, the Luftwaffe could not be in Russia and on the Channel coast at the same time.
There was no alternative to attacking Germany directly if the war was to be won.
Sadly, the number of Halifax,Lancaster,B-24 and B-17's lost in one week would have made a considerable impact if deployed to anti submarine work.

Kodos
02-07-2006, 10:51 PM
Its impossible to fight a World War with your hands tied behind your back.

Someone needs to tell Dubya.

Sulla the Dictator
02-07-2006, 10:52 PM
Bit over the top there Sulla. Nuking Germany would have been a pretty bad long-term strategic decision.


The bomb was being designed for use against Germany. And 'strategic decision' has nothing to do with what the nation DESERVED by the standards it had set in its treatment of its enemies.


The American public at the time would probably have objected a lot more to nuking Germans than Japanese. Wasn't public opinion much more negative towards the Japanese than the Germans then?

Until the Allies started to find German concentration camps.

Thomas777
02-07-2006, 10:55 PM
The bomb was being designed for use against Germany. And 'strategic decision' has nothing to do with what the nation DESERVED by the standards it had set in its treatment of its enemies.


Strategic bombing is either commensurate with "just war" or it is not...its moral implications do not hinge upon the conduct of the enemy.

cerberus
02-07-2006, 10:59 PM
I have no doubt that if the Germans had defeated the Reds at Kursk and if the D-Day landings had failed, the USA would have launched an atomic attack against Germany as soon as the bomb was operational.
Germany's "saving grace" was that there was never a mission of a vistory at Kursk and but for tank failure on Omaha D-Day was never in doubt.
Do you think Hitler would have refused to drop "the bomb" on London via a V-2 if he had had it , I don't.
Given what the Nazi state was and what it might have become I am glad that no stone was left unturned in defeating it.

Thomas777
02-07-2006, 11:10 PM
Germany's "saving grace" was that there was never a mission of a vistory at Kursk and but for tank failure on Omaha D-Day was never in doubt.
Do you think Hitler would have refused to drop "the bomb" on London via a V-2 if he had had it , I don't.
Given what the Nazi state was and what it might have become I am glad that no stone was left unturned in defeating it.

The Germans could have won at the Kursk...had Hitler not been forced to withdraw forces to defend Italy from American forces, the Soviets would have likely been defeated.

RE: D-Day, Rommel felt that if a forward deployment of panzers had been effected, a successful defense of the beaches would have been possible if not likely.

I don't think that strategic bombing or the use of nuclear weapons is inherently immoral in event of total war. What I take exception to is moral particularism (i.e. "strategic bombing of the Third Reich was OK because the Germans were 'bad guys'")

Sulla the Dictator
02-07-2006, 11:11 PM
Strategic bombing is either commensurate with "just war" or it is not...its moral implications do not hinge upon the conduct of the enemy.

Do moral implications on punishment NOT hinge on the conduct of the individual?

Criminals and non-criminals are, by their deffinition, practitioners of different conduct. Our treatment of them varies in severity depending on that conduct.

Kodos
02-07-2006, 11:12 PM
The Germans could have won at the Kursk...

I did a paper on this... they really couldn't have given that the Russians knew months in advance.

D-Day otoh the allies were very lucky. The movie The Longest Day gives an accurate depiction of the circumstances.

Thomas777
02-07-2006, 11:17 PM
Do moral implications on punishment NOT hinge on the conduct of the individual?

Criminals and non-criminals are, by their deffinition, practitioners of different conduct. Our treatment of them varies in severity depending on that conduct.

The purpose of warfare is to eliminate the enemy's ability to wage war. I think strategic bombing is a legitimate strategy in effecting that goal.

I don't think that measures should be taken to punish enemies in war beyond what is effective in compelling and expediting his defeat and surrender.

It was legitimate for the USAF to bomb Germany for the same reason it was legitimate for the USAF to bomb North Vietnam: America was at war and it fell upon US airmen to kill the enemy and destroy his infrastructure in order to eliminate his capacity to wage war.

Felix the Cat
02-07-2006, 11:19 PM
The Allies had complete air supremacy over France in 1944

Rommel himself was nearly killed by an Allied plane during the fighting there

It's difficult to see what the Germans could have done against this, except pray for bad weather

Thomas777
02-07-2006, 11:19 PM
The Germans could have won at the Kursk...

I did a paper on this... they really couldn't have given that the Russians knew months in advance.


The Germans did not make any effort to hide their plans from the Reds...the Kursk salient was where Stalin was massing the brunt of the Soviet juggernaught and it was inevitable that the Germans would attack it.

Hitler placed great stock in the new Mark VI Tiger tank as well as the fighting ability of the Waffen SS...he believed that his battle hardened troopers, aided by the devastating armor and barrage power of the Tigers would carry the day. Surprising the Russians was never on the agenda.

Dan Dare
02-07-2006, 11:21 PM
...Sadly, the number of Halifax,Lancaster,B-24 and B-17's lost in one week would have made a considerable impact if deployed to anti submarine work.

Surprised at this from you, cerb.

Surely you must remember that until the VLR Liberator came into service *no* Allied aircraft had the range or 'linger time' to deal with U-boats packs in the mid-Atlantic gap.

Lancasters with their 10-tonne payload were far better optimised for the strategic bombing role, as were the others to some extent although the US bombers sacrificed bombload for protective armour.

Fade the Butcher
02-07-2006, 11:29 PM
Just sent Dr. Brandt a PM. I doubt he will show.

Sinclair
02-07-2006, 11:30 PM
The bomb was being designed for use against Germany. And 'strategic decision' has nothing to do with what the nation DESERVED by the standards it had set in its treatment of its enemies.

Until the Allies started to find German concentration camps.

-Of course it was designed for use against Germany. The war was much more desperate before the bomb was finished. And why exactly would the average German civilian deserve flaming death? What % of Germans actually served in the military, even?

-Even after that, I think the Japanese were still less popular.

cerberus
02-08-2006, 12:00 AM
Hitler placed great stock in the new Mark VI Tiger tank as well as the fighting ability of the Waffen SS...he believed that his battle hardened troopers, aided by the devastating armor and barrage power of the Tigers would carry the day.
He really held it back on several to wait for the Panther , manstein who urged for an early attack was by this stage against it as the moment had passed and the opportunity was lost.
The number of Tigers deployed at Kursk was quite small and Soviet tactics rendered the long range gunnery advantage null and void.

cerberus
02-08-2006, 12:07 AM
Surprised at this from you, cerb.

Surely you must remember that until the VLR Liberator came into service *no* Allied aircraft had the range or 'linger time' to deal with U-boats packs in the mid-Atlantic gap.

Lancasters with their 10-tonne payload were far better optimised for the strategic bombing role, as were the others to some extent although the US bombers sacrificed bombload for protective armour.

Dan I would agree with you that the VLRL was the aircraft which was really needed over the Atlantic.
The Halifax proved to be quite useful in its Coastal role.
Believe it or not the Lancaster did se some limited use in Costal Command although you are correct that she was purpose built as a bomber.
(She did sink a U-boat or two, I will look the id of the subs up.)
As a bomber when she caried maxium load the range went down.
To hit Tirpitz from the most northern base in the UK they had to stripe her to the bones.
John Masons book on the Lancaster is top notch.

Basil Fawlty
02-08-2006, 12:09 AM
Do moral implications on punishment NOT hinge on the conduct of the individual?So you admit that the terror bombing of Germany was driven by hateful and vindictive motives, or are you just projecting the contents of your spleen in that direction?

Sulla the Dictator
02-08-2006, 12:21 AM
So you admit that the terror bombing of Germany was driven by hateful and vindictive motives, or are you just projecting the contents of your spleen in that direction?

I'm telling you that I don't pity the Germans in light of what they had been doing to their neighbors, their own inhabitants, and their enemy's populace.

Basil Fawlty
02-08-2006, 12:27 AM
I'm telling you that I don't pity the Germans in light of what they had been doing to their neighbors, their own inhabitants, and their enemy's populace.You believe too much allied propaganda. I suppose it makes you feel justified for hating Germany so much.

Sulla the Dictator
02-08-2006, 12:34 AM
You believe too much allied propaganda. I suppose it makes you feel justified for hating Germany so much.


I don't hate Germany. I have contempt for war criminals.

Felix the Cat
02-08-2006, 12:59 AM
-Of course it was designed for use against Germany. The war was much more desperate before the bomb was finished. And why exactly would the average German civilian deserve flaming death? What % of Germans actually served in the military, even?
At the risk of dragging this discussion off topic, it's worth noting that many more people were killed by the Allied blockade of Germany from 1914-19

But it seems that silent deaths are less noteworthy and regrettable than fiery-explosive ones...

A. Radek
02-08-2006, 01:19 AM
At the risk of dragging this discussion off topic, it's worth noting that many more people were killed by the Allied blockade of Germany from 1914-19

But it seems that silent deaths are less noteworthy and regrettable than fiery-explosive ones...

It wasn't much of a blockade. They had the Baltic to themselves, and so had access to Sweden's foodstuffs. The Allies only restricted the Dutch to selling Germany it's own produce, allowing the Dutch to import food for their own needs, a technicality that allowed the Dutch to sell Germany their entire produce. they attacked and destabilized Russia, losing a large part of Russia's exports. They continued with a war that stripped their farmers from the fields and into uniforms. the German leadership made a conscious decision to starve it's own people, just as it made conscious decisions after the war to keep them broke and starving in order to favor the Junkers and aristocrats and industrialists.

cerberus
02-08-2006, 02:19 AM
You believe too much allied propaganda. I suppose it makes you feel justified for hating Germany so much

Funny , Dr. Brandt levelled the same remarks at myself.
Seems that if you take issue with Hitler's goverment and the way they waged war you are deemed to be hating Germans and Germany.

As far as Allied propaganda goes I think most of us are old enough to propaganda when we see and hear it.
Your problem Reinhold is that you don't know Goebbels propaganda when you see it.

Kodos
02-08-2006, 04:54 AM
It wasn't much of a blockade. They had the Baltic to themselves

Not during the Versailles treaty negotiations...

Kodos
02-08-2006, 04:55 AM
The Germans did not make any effort to hide their plans from the Reds...the Kursk salient was where Stalin was massing the brunt of the Soviet juggernaught and it was inevitable that the Germans would attack it.

The layers of tank defenses went too deep for there to be any prospect of success.

Thomas777
02-08-2006, 05:03 AM
The Germans did not make any effort to hide their plans from the Reds...the Kursk salient was where Stalin was massing the brunt of the Soviet juggernaught and it was inevitable that the Germans would attack it.

The layers of tank defenses went too deep for there to be any prospect of success.

Perhaps, but I think the Germans could have crippled the offensive capacity of the Reds and established an elastic defense that could have kept the enemy at bay indefinately if the Reich had not been forced to contend with the American landing in Italy.

Kodos
02-08-2006, 05:09 AM
Perhaps, but I think the Germans could have crippled the offensive capacity of the Reds

Only by sacrificing their own... and that just would have meant a longer war it would have not changed the outcome( even if you take nuclear weapons out of the picture). Establishing a stable defensive line across the whole of the russian front... would have been pretty hard. If I remember the landings in Italy didn't divert any tanks from the offensive.

Basil Fawlty
02-08-2006, 08:12 AM
I don't hate Germany. I have contempt for war criminals.Nah, that's how you justify it to yourself. You never have a good word to say about them. You're full of hate towards them, Mr. anti-racist/anti-antisemite. :222:

cerberus
02-08-2006, 08:13 AM
Perhaps, but I think the Germans could have crippled the offensive capacity of the Reds and established an elastic defense that could have kept the enemy at bay indefinately if the Reich had not been forced to contend with the American landing in Italy.

Thomas this is exactly what the German forces did not do and the Soviets still had a reserve to go on the offensive at Orel.
The elastic defense was what Manstein was argueing for and what Hitler was totally against.
Hitler said they had to attack for "political reasons".
The German Army had been forced ( by Hitler ) into a battle of attrition which they simply could not win.
The troops sent to Italy could not have prevented the Soviets from advancing in 1943 , the forces which might have made a difference had been destroyed at Kursk , a battleground which had been prepared , in depth for defense.
The battle which manstein and Guderian wanted to fight would have been on ground of their choosing , that is the essential difference.
Kursk had been lost before a single Allied soldier set foot in Italy .
Victory at Kursk , do you really think that Hitler would have been willing to defend ?
He had already rejected what you propose and settled on Citadel. Hitler said that "I have always gone for broke" , he staked everyting on the turn of one card , he did the same in December 1944 and in March 1945.

cerberus
02-08-2006, 08:15 AM
Nah, that's how you justify it to yourself. You never have a good word to say about them.
"If you are not for us you must be against us"

Sulla the Dictator
02-08-2006, 09:23 AM
Nah, that's how you justify it to yourself. You never have a good word to say about them.


:nono:

When we talk about Prussian Germany I'll have nothing but nice things to say about them. :p

Kodos
02-08-2006, 02:54 PM
Thomas this is exactly what the German forces did not do and the Soviets still had a reserve to go on the offensive at Orel.
The elastic defense was what Manstein was argueing for and what Hitler was totally against.

Hitler was correct in the sense that establishing a stable defensive line( even elastic) across the whole of the Russian front would have been nearly impossible. It could have worked if the Germans had paused each winter and advanced slowly and had multiple fall back positions with supply stockpiles slightly to the rear so that it could withstand wave attacks...

cerberus
02-08-2006, 05:32 PM
Hitler did this in "his own way".
He defended strong points areas which he judged to be important even if they beacme surrounded they had to be defended "to the last shell."
The soldiers defending faced either capture or death.

A. Radek
02-09-2006, 02:30 AM
It wasn't much of a blockade. They had the Baltic to themselves

Not during the Versailles treaty negotiations...

I'll have to check dates, but I'm pretty sure Germany hadn't officially conceded anything or disarmed until late in the negotiations.

Sulla the Dictator
02-09-2006, 03:30 PM
At the risk of dragging this discussion off topic, it's worth noting that many more people were killed by the Allied blockade of Germany from 1914-19

But it seems that silent deaths are less noteworthy and regrettable than fiery-explosive ones...


German domestic mismanagement might have caused more damage than the actual blockade.

Sulla the Dictator
02-09-2006, 03:35 PM
Price control prompted farmers to switch to the production of butter and cheese, which were not regulated. The most notorious consequence of this fragmented approach was the so-called 'pig massacre'. By early 1915 potato shortages were attributed to the fodder requirements of pigs, which were consequently deemed to be getting priority over people. Pigs were slaugtered, resulting first in a glut of pork and then in a shortage. Thereafter it was not only the price of pork which rose, but also that of other livestock, to which the farmers and consumers now turned. At the same timethe government held down the prices of bread and potatoes, and therefore paid relatively more to farmers to bring what the latter judged to be animal fodder to the human market 'at a loss'.

--The First World War
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