Treblinka

[Trojan]

Richard Krege, an engineer by trade, conducted a suppossed ground penetrating radar study of the Treblinka site in 1999.

His publication thus far:
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v19/v19n3p20_radar.html

Several years back I started a thread at The Revisionist Forum

http://revforum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=1245&highlight=krege

(note - you only see on the thread what Hannover allowed you to see)

So the question is, as a revisionist, do you find his work credible? Do you feel he has done an adequate job?

Stormfront loves this guy (Jack Boot in particular), Hannover falls all over himself defending his work.

Its been six and a half years and nothing has followed.

[Basil Fawlty]

Richard Krege, an engineer by trade, conducted a suppossed ground penetrating radar study of the Treblinka site in 1999.

His publication thus far:
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v19/v19n3p20_radar.html

Several years back I started a thread at The Revisionist Forum

http://revforum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=1245&highlight=krege

(note - you only see on the thread what Hannover allowed you to see)

So the question is, as a revisionist, do you find his work credible? Do you feel he has done an adequate job?

Stormfront loves this guy (Jack Boot in particular), Hannover falls all over himself defending his work.

Its been six and a half years and nothing has followed.I remember this thread.
I think you raise the sort of questions that are quite valid if something is to be accepted as rigorous and conclusive etc. As a preliminary investigation it is of some value but it cannot satisfy the demand for conclusiveness as things stand. Part of the problem in all this is the resistance by the industry to proper investigations - the kind that are normal in archeology, especially forensic archeology - and the criminalisation that makes such a field trip a dangerous business.
Both J William and Scott Smith make similar points and I would be in general agreement with them. Ultimately the onus is on believers to demonstrate their claims concerning Treblinka and elsewhere.

The claims for Treblinka do not stand up on the basis of what is advanced as evidence, regardless of what one thinks about the Krege question.
When one reads the elaborate descriptions in IMT of the steam chambers of Treblinka (before they changed it to diesel fumes) and listen to the obvious inventions of someone like Abraham Bomba and others, it all rather sags and collapses under the weight of its own imposture.

[Dan Dare]

It's disappointing that Krege or somebody else hasn't been able to follow through on this initial investigation.

IMO Treblinka is the key cornerstone in the Standard Account, since unlike Birkenau it is supposed to have been designed and operated purely as a centre for exterminating Jews. There are no other distractions such as satellite work camps, Russian POWs, gipsys or homosexuals to muddy the waters.

Depending upon which account you prefer, the physical remains of 800,000 or more Jews still lie within the confines of an area less than a couple of hectares and it would seem to be a relatively simple matter for contemporary forensic science to establish their presence or not.

If an independent scientific effort were able to do that it would probably silence the doubters for ever. But curiously enough the Tribunes of the Standard Account never call for such an investigation. It does beg the question, why not?

[Sulla the Dictator]

Ultimately the onus is on believers to demsntrate their claims concerning Treblinka and elsewhere.


The onus is on people who are familiar with actual history to dig through the ashes and bones of the victims of Treblinka to satisfy people like Ernst Zundel?

[Basil Fawlty]

The onus is on people who are familiar with actual history to dig through the ashes and bones of the victims of Treblinka to satisfy people like Ernst Zundel?Question begging.

[Dan Dare]

According to Ingrid Weckert (yeah, I know) the good folks at Yad Vashem also have some anxiety that the case for the greatest Nazi extermination centre rests entirely on the testimony of the likes of Abraham Bomba and Franz Suchomel.

Edit:

Officially-sponsored investigations have been completed quite recently at Belzec, perhaps the less than fully conclusive nature of that effort has been a discouragement?

[cerberus]

Remember, we all used to believe.
I wonder ?
Dr Toben of Adelaide Institute authorized an archeological expedition.

It does sound rather like the titles "Ph D." this and "Prof." that which Hanover took such distaste to.
Dr. Toben is a Doctor "of what" ?
I would think that he has no authority to authorise anything on the Treblinka site.
So still no formal publication of the findings ?
If it is anything like "Freds" report or Rudolf's perhaps the least explaination made about its methodology the better or Mr. Krege's qualifications and experience in this field.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Question begging.

Do you think that historians DON'T believe in the Holocaust and are advancing a fact they know to be false?

[Basil Fawlty]

Do you think that historians DON'T believe in the Holocaust and are advancing a fact they know to be false?Are you suggesting that because someone else apparently believes something, we should believe it?

You are asking an impossible question: what does another person really believe?

[Sulla the Dictator]

Are you suggesting that because someone else apparently believes something, we should believe it?


No, I'm pointing out that regardless of what you think about the Holocaust, the views of myself, Cerebus, Radek, Potyondi, and the historical community are genuine.

We know the Holocaust happened. What you are suggesting is that historians should dig through bones and ash (For the purpose of this question it doesn't matter that you don't believe they're there) to prove something to you or Ernst Zundel.

The question is: why?

[Sulla the Dictator]

You are asking an impossible question: what does another person really believe?

You certainly can't believe that people have dedicated their entire life to writing about, teaching, or learning something they know to be false.

[Basil Fawlty]

No, I'm pointing out that regardless of what you think about the Holocaust, the views of myself, Cerebus, Radek, Potyondi, and the historical community are genuine.You may only legitimately claim that for yourself, you do not have the kind of access to their minds that would be required to sustain such a claim. The most charitable thing that can be said is that you form a community of common belief.

We know the Holocaust happened.You believe it. If it was known then we would not be having this dispute. What you are suggesting is that historians should dig through bones and ash (For the purpose of this question it doesn't matter that you don't believe they're there) to prove something to you or Ernst Zundel.No, not to prove it to me or any other named person, just to prove it for the sake of historical truth. Am I to undertsand that you disapprove of the forensic archeology and post mortems carried out in the Balkans in the late 90's? One might add that the attempted Katyn frame up failed because the Germans had carried out the kind of investigation that is normal and necessary for any crime scene, and the world knew it.
The question is: why?Why what?

[Dan Dare]

You certainly can't believe that people have dedicated their entire life to writing about, teaching, or learning something they know to be false.

It's probably more that establishment historians have observed what happens to those who 'go digging' and conclude that the game is not worth the candle.

[Donny the Punk]

As I recall, Krege's 'study' was subsidised by a Holocaust denial think-tank and his results were never formally published. That he claimed to have found no soil disturbances whatsoever to a depth of six metres while Allied aerial reconnaisance photographs clearly show the camp having been demolished and re-tilled, especially the quarry, is enough to raise even the most rabid Nazi sycophant's eyebrow.

Ah yes, the article is above.

The team carefully examined the entire Treblinka II site, especially the alleged "mass graves" portion, and carried out control examinations of the surrounding area. They found no soil disturbance consistent with the burial of hundreds of thousands of bodies, or even evidence that the ground had ever been disturbed. In addition, Krege and his team found no evidence of individual graves, bone remains, human ashes, or wood ashes.
This reminds me of a primary document I dredged out of memory into a Holocaust debate years ago. I'll see if I can find the scan, but it is a report from the Senior Commander at Ostrow (a town twenty kilometres from Treblinka) reporting "that the Jews in Treblinka are not adequately buried and as a result an unbearable smell of cadavers pollutes the air." One wonders how many Jewish corpses would have to be inadequately buried to create a stench that was offensive at 20km. Perhaps the Nazis spirited away all the remains in their UFOs.

[Dan Dare]

As I recall, Krege's 'study' was subsidised by a Holocaust denial think-tank and his results were never formally published. That he claimed to have found no soil disturbances whatsoever to a depth of six metres while Allied aerial reconnaisance photographs clearly show the camp having been demolished and re-tilled, especially the quarry, is enough to raise even the most rabid Nazi sycophant's eyebrow.

Ah yes, the article is above.

What quarry?

This reminds me of a primary document I dredged out of memory into a Holocaust debate years ago. I'll see if I can find the scan, but it is a report from the Senior Commander at Ostrow (a town twenty kilometres from Treblinka) reporting "that the Jews in Treblinka are not adequately buried and as a result an unbearable smell of cadavers pollutes the air." One wonders how many Jewish corpses would have to be inadequately buried to create a stench that was offensive at 20km. Perhaps the Nazis spirited away all the remains in their UFOs.

Save yourself the trouble looking. All 800,000 corpses are said to have been exhumed and cremated and the remains dispersed on the site. They should still be there.

[cerberus]

Even if Reinhold is going to ignore me.:(
The most charitable thing that can be said is that you form a community of common belief.

The "community of common belief" goes far beyond this forum and the revisionist cause has yet to provide any proof that can be sustained that the "H" did not occur.
If it was known then we would not be having this dispute
That is the strange thing , it is known and we are having or you are having this dispute.
The dispute is not if the Holocaust happened , its a dispute over the totally insincere misue of factual information adorned with misinformation which is put forward to say that it did not happen.
The dispute you think you are having is not the one historians are having.
you do not have the kind of access to their minds that would be required to sustain such a claim.
I think what has been posted by those mentioned by Sulla does sustain rather than refute.
just to prove it for the sake of historical truth
It has been proved - that much is known, there are no doubts, truth has been served.
The words "apparently believe" do not apply.
Belief is to you an article of faith , you believe but you cannot prove.
Historians do not believe in the same sense you believe - the facts even from the perputrators themselves state exactly what took place.
And spare us the brain bashing machine tale - and the steam killing tales - the soap tales - the idea that the "revisionists" alone are charged with reviewing history is self serving at best.

[Donny the Punk]

What quarry?
The quarry at Treblinka I. What do you think all those roads Polish and jewish slaves built were made of?

[Fade the Butcher]

This reminds me. Someone should go fetch jack_boot over at SF.

[Dan Dare]

The quarry at Treblinka I. What do you think all those roads Polish and jewish slaves built were made of?

What does Treblinka I have to do this thread? There are no Jews supposed to been buried there.

[cerberus]

Perhaps the Nazis spirited away all the remains in their UFOs.
That's what happened the bodies went to the South Pole in the UFO's Zundel wrote about.:rolleyes:
Does nail Zundel,s credibility to the mast.

[Dan Dare]

This reminds me. Someone should go fetch jack_boot over at SF.

Qualified Engineer too.;)

Although he's still working overtime with his sliderule trying to figure out where all the lumber came from.

[Donny the Punk]

Jack Boot and I have had this conversation many times. You can tell him to stop chasing his own tail since they used coke and not wood.

Surely you can't be so naïve as to believe that no Nazi slave labour died in situ. It would have been an interesting controlled variable. The obvious point was, however, that hundreds of thousands of kilos of stone were shifted from one camp to the other, if only to build roads, and Krege found no evidence at all. How mysterious.

[Dan Dare]

Jack Boot and I have had this conversation many times. You can tell him to stop chasing his own tail since they used coke and not wood.

Where'd the coke come from?

Surely you can't be so naïve as to believe that no Nazi slave labour died in situ. It would have been an interesting controlled variable. The obvious point was, however, that hundreds of thousands of kilos of stone were shifted from one camp to the other, if only to build roads, and Krege found no evidence at all. How mysterious.

Why would hundreds of thousands of kg of stone be needed for roads in an area of less than 0.25 sq km? When were these roads constructed and by whom?

No-one is disputing the existence of a quarry in the Arbeitslager known as Treblinka I in the officially approved account, but even Arad concedes that the prisoners there were Poles not Jews.

[Donny the Punk]

Where'd the coke come from?
Topf & Sons, Berlin. After ignition, it was a self-sustaining process. Up in smoke, like jack hole's fairy tale about 500 foot-high wooden skyscrapers.

When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room, the doors are shut... Then the corpses are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first floor, where ten large crematoria are located. (Because fresh corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed for the whole process.)
- Notes From Diary of SS-Doctor Kremer, while in Auschwitz ['The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 256-268]


Why would hundreds of thousands of kg of stone be needed for roads in an area of less than 0.25 sq km? When were these roads constructed and by whom?
* Can't do maths. :( Between 1942 and 1944. By Nazi slave labourers.



No-one is disputing the existence of a quarry in the Arbeitslager known as Treblinka I in the officially approved account, but even Arad concedes that the prisoners there were Poles not Jews.
Polish slaves don't leave remains? As I said, controlled variable. Sorry, I'm not familiar with any Arad; I only deal in primary sources.

[A. Radek]

Even if Reinhold is going to ignore me.

Well, he and Dan are very busy promoting a 'Greater Truth'; you know, the one where lying and faking 'evidence' are an acceptable tactic. It's all in the Browning thread, remember.

[Donny the Punk]

By the by, Dan, could you tell me where you got this quizzical little statistic of 0.25km^2 from? It doesn't seem to match my evidence.

http://www.geocities.com/potyond/diagram.txt (open in IE or save as .jpg)

Indeed, 250m^2 is about the size of the average children's playground.

It looks to me as if the camp is about 600m running west to east and 350m north to south, which puts its area at about 210km^2. Care to comment?

[Sulla the Dictator]

You may only legitimately claim that for yourself, you do not have the kind of access to their minds that would be required to sustain such a claim. The most charitable thing that can be said is that you form a community of common belief.


Its a reasonable assumption. The belief that 'everyone is out to get you' by INVENTING a historical event is, to be quite honest, insane.

Therefore, unless you're actually insane, you must make some reasonable choices in this matter. Either 1) The Holocaust happened, or atleast 2) The community of historians do not doubt that the Holocaust happened.


You believe it.


No, I know.


If it was known then we would not be having this dispute.


LMAO There IS no dispute. You're surrounded by an illusion. This board, where this is a 'debatable' issue, as opposed to the wider world, where its more than settled fact.

It is known. There is no dispute. You people honestly don't have academic standing.


No, not to prove it to me or any other named person, just to prove it for the sake of historical truth.


Its already proven, and is not disputed by any serious person.

Maybe you guys would have a better shot if you wern't so deceptive and dishonest with your methods.


Am I to undertsand that you disapprove of the forensic archeology and post mortems carried out in the Balkans in the late 90's?


You mean, am I against an effort to find out how many people were killed or who they were at the request of the victims for the prosecution of the guilty as opposed to being against an effort to harm the children of Holocaust victims by playing sandcastle in their parent's ashes?

Charming.


One might add that the attempted Katyn frame up failed because the Germans had carried out the kind of investigation that is normal and necessary for any crime scene, and the world knew it.


Where are the "Inventing the Holocaust" documents in the Soviet archives?

We found all the documents relating to the Katyn affair, by the by.

[Trojan]

Its also worth noting that while there are records of thousands jews being sent to Treblinka, very few of those jews have ever been found alive. If Treblinka was just a way station on the road to the East, surely some jews would have come forward to say "I traveled trough Treblinka".

[Sulla the Dictator]

Save yourself the trouble looking. All 800,000 corpses are said to have been exhumed and cremated and the remains dispersed on the site. They should still be there.


Is it now the position of Holocaust deniers that even deaths from overwork, disease, and malnurishment didn't happen? Pardon the question, the theories behind Holocaust Denial seem to shift and change after each previous theory is destroyed.

[Donny the Punk]

LMAO There IS no dispute. You're surrounded by an illusion. This board, where this is a 'debatable' issue, as opposed to the wider world, where its more than settled fact.

It is known. There is no dispute. You people honestly don't have academic standing.
Perhaps we only believe in gravity as well. :p Because it's not known, obviously gravity is under serious dispute by scholarly researchers.

[A. Radek]

Yes. Gravity is a purely faith-based concept. Lots of Maharishis will prove this by teaching you how to levitate, for a price, of course.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Perhaps we only believe in gravity as well. :p Because it's not known, obviously gravity is under serious dispute by scholarly researchers.

LOL There's more credibility to Moon Landing Denial. There was atleast an hour long FOX special. :p

[Donny the Punk]

How boring. They used to come thick and fast as locusts in the old days.

[Sulla the Dictator]

How boring. They used to come thick and fast as locusts in the old days.

Holocaust Denial has become more of a 'prayer wheel' thing. :D Only a few people like O'Reilly or Dan or some occassional new arrival is willing to debate it.

The others often sit back and silently rub the prayer beads like a Baptist in Science class. :p

[Fade the Butcher]

I'm still undecided on this issue (having never taken any real interest in the subject), but ad hominem attacks and throwing revisionists in prison for their theories hardly impresses me. If Holocaust advocates have the weight of the evidence behind their position, then why resort to such tactics?

[Dan Dare]

By the by, Dan, could you tell me where you got this quizzical little statistic of 0.25km^2 from? It doesn't seem to match my evidence.

http://www.geocities.com/potyond/diagram.txt (open in IE or save as .jpg)

Indeed, 250m^2 is about the size of the average children's playground.

It looks to me as if the camp is about 600m running west to east and 350m north to south, which puts its area at about 210km^2. Care to comment?

210 sq km is about 90 sq miles.

Have they issued you with special Holocalx?

Since when did 0.25 sq km = 250 sq m?

1 km = 1000 m

1 sq km = 1000 * 1000 m = 10^6 sq m

600 m * 400 m = 240,000 sq m ~= 0.25 sq km.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

And yes, everybody say a big Hallo! to Oberon.

No show without Punch, as they say.

[Donny the Punk]

The price of impawning our sleeping swords of war. :p I wonder if they enjoy swallowing their bile? :D

[Donny the Punk]

210 sq km is about 90 sq miles.

Have they issued you with special Holocalx?

Since when did 0.25 sq km = 250 sq m?

1 km = 1000 m

1 sq km = 1000 * 1000 m = 10^6 sq m

600 m * 400 m = 240,000 sq m ~= 0.25 sq km.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

And yes, everybody say a big Hallo! to Oberon.

No show without Punch, as they say.
Whoops, forgot to divide by square km. Must be sleepy. :D I'll stick with my previous reply.

[Crowley]

When was the last time in Western history that scholars were locked up for challenging received wisdom?

[Crowley]

The establishment does not want to closely examine the Holocaust because there is nothing to be gained by doing so and everything to lose. Probably what would happen is we would all discover that it did indeed happen, but on a vastly smaller scale than has been claimed, thus embarrassing a lot of people. At Treblinka we are not going to discover the remains of 800,000 people, but something like 50,000. The fact that these gadflys are being locked up tells the tale. The establishment is hiding something.

[A. Radek]

Sorry, I'm not familiar with any Arad; I only deal in primary sources.

Not a problem. Dan isn't familiar with him, either.

Dan Dare:I suppose that Yitzhak Arad is an example of one the normative historians you cite, while Juergen Graf would one of the deniers.

Graf's critique of Arad's magnum opus on the AR camps is widely available, and I have yet to see a refutation of any of his claims.



Bold added by me.

Dan isn't even familiar with Holocaust Denier materials; I'm still waiting for him to post these wondrous refutations on another board, as nobody else can find this Juergen Graf's magnificent refutation of Arad's book, and he is loath to provide a link to them. Not surprising, since this refutation doesn't exist.

[Dan Dare]

Whoops, forgot to divide by square km. Must be sleepy. :D I'll stick with my previous reply.

Which previous reply was that then?

[Dan Dare]

Not a problem. Dan isn't familiar with him, either.

Sorry Obie, you're screwed as usual.

I am intimately familiar with Arad, I have his magnum opus on my desk as I write.

Ask me a question.

[Dan Dare]

Anyway, enough of this badinage.

Does anyone have a plausible explanation why there has never been an independent forensic investigation of Treblinka?

The minimal cost and disruption would seem worthwhile if it served to silence the skeptics forever.

What's to lose, already?

[Sulla the Dictator]

Does anyone have a plausible explanation why there has never been an independent forensic investigation of Treblinka?


For the same reason we aren't unearthing the bodies of the victims of the Son of Sam to prove that they actually died.


The minimal cost and disruption would seem worthwhile if it served to silence the skeptics forever.


It wouldn't silence you folks. You would distrust any survey that was contrary to what you already believe. If you argue that academics are deliberately lying to you about the evidence they currently have, why would you trust new evidence from the same source?

Thus, the disruption is not only substantial, its obscene. You're digging through the remains of victims of the Holocaust so that Holocaust Deniers can accuse you of having made a new fabrication.

[Dan Dare]

For the same reason we aren't unearthing the bodies of the victims of the Son of Sam to prove that they actually died.

Not familar with that case, sorry, but I do know that, for example the British police had little compunction about wheeling in the heavy equipment to exhume the remains of the many victims of serial killers Rose and Fred West. And were applauded for doing so.

It wouldn't silence you folks. You would distrust any survey that was contrary to what you already believe. If you argue that academics are deliberately lying to you about the evidence they currently have, why would you trust new evidence from the same source?

Well I can't speak for 'all us folks' obviously. I think the important thing would be to have the operation conducted under the auspices of an organisation that did not have a axe to grind.

Thus, the disruption is not only substantial, its obscene. You're digging through the remains of victims of the Holocaust so that Holocaust Deniers can accuse you of having made a new fabrication.

Do you feel the forensic investigation of the Bosnian victims at Sebrenica was also obscene and should not not have been allowed?

[Donny the Punk]

Which previous reply was that then?
You were asking after coke.

[Dan Dare]

You were asking after coke.

Yes I was.

Where did it come from?

[Donny the Punk]

Sigh. character limit

Topf & Sons, Berlin. After ignition, it was a self-sustaining process. Up in smoke, like jack hole's fairy tale about 500 foot-high wooden skyscrapers.

When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room, the doors are shut... Then the corpses are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first floor, where ten large crematoria are located. (Because fresh corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed for the whole process.)
- Notes From Diary of SS-Doctor Kremer, while in Auschwitz ['The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 256-268]

[Dan Dare]

Sigh. character limit

I thought we were discussing Treblinka.

[Donny the Punk]

We are discussing Treblinka, so respond to the point. You're trying to imply that the amount of energy required to incinerate hundreds of thousands of corpses would require volumes of coke (now that lumber is gone; God know where you got that idea from) physically impossible to obtain.

I am demonstrating that far from being the case, in an enclosed crematoria at Auschwitz, 300-400 carcasses could be burnt using only 50-100 lb. of coke. Averaged, that's 4.6lb. of coke per body in a restricted and an enclosed environment. This is important because corpses at Treblinka were burned on grids of train rails out of doors, with unlimited ventilation and surface area with which to work (the division of the camp dedicated solely to the purpose and which was so enormous that it lead to the Polish wartime report on Treblinka concluding that there was a third camp). Moreover, each corpse added to the pile served to stoke the flames rather than dampen them and require ancillary fuel.

The process of using body fat in an oven was also described by Sonderkommando Filip Müller, who noted that the authorities had found ways to place the bodies in the ovens to maximize fuel efficiency.

In the course of these experiments corpses were selected according to different criteria and then cremated. Thus, the corpses of two Mussulmans [camp slang for emaciated prisoners] were cremated together with those of two children or the bodies of two well nourished men together with that of an emaciated woman, each load consisting of three, or sometimes four, bodies. Members of these groups [SS men and civilian visitors to the crematoria] were especially interested in the amount of coke required to burn corpses of any particular category...

Afterwards all corpses were divided into the above mentioned four categories, the criterion being the amount of coke needed to reduce them to ashes. Thus it was decreed that the most economical and fuel saving procedure would be to burn the bodies of a well-nourished man and an emaciated woman, or vice versa, together with that of a child, because, as the experiments had established, in this combination, once they had caught fire, the dead would continue to burn without further coke being required." [174]
Source of quote:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/body-disposal/

Hopefully you can grasp the inference.

[Dan Dare]

Well certainly I can grasp it.

I can also grasp the fact that nobody in the whole history of Holocaustianity has ever advanced the theory that the cremations at Treblinka were fuelled by coke until you did a few posts ago.

Is this the outcome of some new cutting edge research that even Oberon and Yitzhak Arad are not privy to?

[Donny the Punk]

Well certainly I can grasp it.

I can also grasp the fact that nobody in the whole history of Holocaustianity has ever advanced the theory that the cremations at Treblinka were fuelled by coke until you did a few posts ago.

Is this the outcome of some new cutting edge research that even Oberon and Yitzhak Arad are not privy to?
The only reference I can find online is from your favourite historian who writes:

[…]At first an inflammable liquid was poured onto the bodies to help them burn, but later this was considered unnecessary; the SS men in charge of the cremation became convinced that the corpses burned well enough without extra fuel.
[…]
The bodies of victims brought to Treblinka in transports arriving after the body-burning began were taken directly from the gas chambers of the roasters and were not buried in the ditches. These bodies did not burn as well as those removed from the ditches and had to be sprayed with fuel before they would burn.[…]
Yitzhak Arad, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. The Operation Reinhard Death Camps, pages 173 and following.

Note that he also makes the point about self-sustenance. Do not forget the fact that most of the bodies had been lying in mass graves for some time and were accordingly shrunk and shriveled, without much mass left to burn. Their dryness seems to have lended itself to this phenomenon, along with the chemical products of decomposition.

As for the use of coke, I am recapitulating point I've made in similar debates years ago, though I cannot find my sources from the time because a) I'm IP banned from the principal one, b) even when using a proxy, it seems the thread, being too old, was not indexed into the search results. I'll look through my own books, but as I've not the university library at my disposal until September, I doubt I'll find what I'm looking for. I'll keep you updated, however, in good faith.

[Dan Dare]

The only reference I can find online is from your favourite historian who writes:


Yitzhak Arad, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. The Operation Reinhard Death Camps, pages 173 and following.

Note that he also makes the point about self-sustenance. Do not forget the fact that most of the bodies had been lying in mass graves for some time and were accordingly shrunk and shriveled, without much mass left to burn. Their dryness seems to have lended itself to this phenomenon, along with the chemical products of decomposition.

As for the use of coke, I am recapitulating point I've made in similar debates years ago, though I cannot find my sources from the time because a) I'm IP banned from the principal one, b) even when using a proxy, it seems the thread, being too old, was not indexed into the search results. I'll look through my own books, but as I've not the university library at my disposal until September, I doubt I'll find what I'm looking for. I'll keep you updated, however, in good faith.

Most interesting, we'll await your further dispatches with eager anticipation.

Now, do we have any outstanding matters to deal with on the road-building programme? A back of the envelope calculation indicates that the hundreds of thousands of kilograms of stone that you indicate were shipped to T II from T I would have been sufficient to transform Franz Suchomel's Himmelweg into a ten-lane Autobahn. Does this sound correct? I'll understand if you need to refer to sources.

[Donny the Punk]

It is frustrating. :( Sulla is helping me look for the thread now.

In the meantime, in response to "Does anyone have a plausible explanation why there has never been an independent forensic investigation of Treblinka?", is that I believe it has already been done by the Polish Central Commission for Investigation of German Crimes in Poland, who discovered ashes, bone fragments and other partial remains all over an area of more than 20,000 square meters, buried to a depth of 7.5 meters.

[Donny the Punk]

Now, do we have any outstanding matters to deal with on the road-building programme? A back of the envelope calculation indicates that the hundreds of thousands of kilograms of stone that you indicate were shipped to T II from T I would have been sufficient to transform Franz Suchomel's Himmelweg into a ten-lane Autobahn. Does this sound correct? I'll understand if you need to refer to sources.
The gravel mined at the Treblinka quarry was used to pave Polish roads, not simply the camp itself. The geological footprint left by such activities at TII alone, however, is shown here:

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/Image180.jpg

For Krege to claim that he found no evidence of soil disturbance at all is plainly fiction which was, as I recall, my original point.

[Donny the Punk]

It has turned out that I've made a mistake. I confused two aspects of the Holocaust and placed one where it should not have been because of my lack of proximity to the research. I'd even forgotten that I knew who Arad was (ages ago). That is my fault, for assuming that my recollection of my own Holocaust investigations was still accurate after 2 or so years.

I would like to recommence, addressing Krege specifically and using the older work that Sulla has thankfully recovered for me. Since I have access to the sources now, there should be no more mix-ups. I apologise for my rashness.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following pictures are from an album (entitled "Die schönsten Jahre meines Lebens") that was discovered by west-German investigators in the flat of Kurt Franz, assistant commandant of Treblinka, in December 1959. The album shows numerous photos of Treblinka, such as of a brick tower, of the bakery building, of the menagerie and zoological garden and of the commandant of Treblinka, Franz Stangl. Comparison with an aerial photo and the maps drawn by survivors of Treblinka and Stangl and with eyewitness descriptions indicates that the both the pictures displayed above and those to follow are showing the extermination site.

A panorama of the mass graves at Treblinka being exhumed by an excavator, seen at left:

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bp04.jpg

Burial pits and the excavator at Treblinka:

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bp01.jpg

Now, IHR Holocaust 'Revisionists' Mark Weber and Andrew Allen have done us all the favour of obtaining information regarding the killing sites at Treblinka which effectively scuttles Krege’s extremist position, as follows:

Jewish historian Rachel Auerbach, a member of an official Polish commission that inspected the camp site in November 1945 -- that is, a few months after the end of the war -- reported finding large human bones, "rotted masses of corpses," "pieces of half-rotted corpses," and "fully dressed" corpses, at the Treblinka camp site. (note 62)
[…]
62. R. Auerbach, "In the Fields of Treblinka," in: A. Donat, ed., Death Camp Treblinka, pp. 19, 69, 71, 72.
[...]

In the area where the gas chambers were supposed to have been located, the commission's team of 30 excavation workers reportedly found human remains, partially in the process of decay, and an unspecified amount of ash. Untouched sandy soil was reached at 7.5 meters, at which point the digging was halted. An accompanying photograph of an excavated pit reveals some large bones. (note 63)
[…]
63. Facsimile of report, Nov. 13, 1945, in: Biuletyn Glownej Komisji... (Warsaw), Vol. 26, 1975, pp. 183-185. (Translation provided to the author).; Note also photo of skulls and large bones on p. 151. This is similar to the photo in: A. Donat, ed., Death Camp Treblinka, p. 266.
[…]

Poland's Central Commission for Investigation of German Crimes

reported that large quantities of ashes mixed with sand, among which are numerous human bones, often with the remains of decomposing tissues, were found in the five acre (two hectare) burial area during an examination of the site shortly after the end of the war. (note 64)
[…]
64. Central Commission ..., German Crimes in Poland, Vol. 1, pp. 96-97.

From: http://ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p133_Allen.html

This is the Central Commission to which I referred earlier, and this is the photo referred to in note 63 from among their investigations.
http://proxify.com/p/011010A1000110/x00013803.687474703a2f2f7777772e67656f6369746965732e636f6d2f706f74796f6e642f736b756c6c732e747874
Larger version: http://www.geocities.com/potyond/survivors.txt (open in IE or save as .jpg)

Thanks to this royal 'Revisionist' shot in the foot, we have the data of an investigation commission complete with their photographic evidence on the mass graves of Treblinka (thus conclusively answering your earlier question).
Moreover, Krege’s work is contradicted, explicitly this time, by Weber and Allen, once again:

In spite of its often inconsistent, contradictory and implausible character, testimony indicating that many Jews lost their lives at Treblinka cannot easily be dismissed. Many Jewish prisoners doubtless perished during their rail journey to the camp site, and were almost certainly buried there. Furthermore, it is plausible and even likely that hundreds and perhaps thousands of Jews who were too weak or ill to continue the eastbound journey from the camp were killed there by officials acting on their own authority.

From: http://ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p133_Allen.html

Indeed, it is not only logical that thousands of concentration camp victims, at the very least, died both in transit and in situ at the camps; it is the dogma of Revisionists that tens, even hundreds of thousands of Jews died of disease or, less commonly, at the whim of sadistic camp commandants acting of their own volition and not implicated in any greater programme of extermination. Where forensic evidence cannot be denied, nor photographs of piles upon piles of emaciated corpses tossed haphazardly into massive pits like broken, twisted rag dolls be refuted (as is the case with Auschwitz in particular, where 401 holes were bored up to 3 m deep, and ash, bones and hair were found in 42 sites) inevitably one encounters the argument that they died of massive Typhus epidemics or due to overcrowding in trains (as Auschwitz Revisionist Carlo Mattogno purports). The issue at stake here is not how many died or even how, but whether or not some or even any died and were buried at Treblinka. Even an amateur using Krege’s bumbling techniques would find more evidence of remains in a rural graveyard than he did at what was supposedly a "transit camp", through which hundreds of thousands of Jews (admittedly!) were shuttled to the Eastern Soviet territories occupied by the Germans. So what is the cause of the discrepancy? In the simplest terms, Krege is either hopelessly incompetent or he is lying, as this photograph, taken from page 258 of Donat, Alexander, ed. The Death Camp Treblinka: A Documentary. New York: Holocaust Library, 1979. clearly demonstrates:

http://www.geocities.com/mrpotyondi/trainsmall.txt
Larger version: http://www.geocities.com/potyond/train.txt

[A. Radek]

Sorry Obie, you're screwed as usual.

Not by you ...

I am intimately familiar with Arad, I have his magnum opus on my desk as I write.

Really? Congratulations on finally getting a book by a legitimate revisionist. Maybe one day you will get around to actually reading it ...

He has several books, by the way, not just one ... I thought I would tell you this since you are unaware of most reliable information on this topic of death camps and stuff.

Ask me a question.

Okay.

Do you wear sock garters?

[A. Radek]

Indeed, it is not only logical that thousands of concentration camp victims, at the very least, died both in transit and in situ at the camps;

Death on the trains was very common.

Testimony of Willi Mentz about Treblinka. Quoted in The Good Old Days - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 245-247:

"When I came to Treblinka the camp commandant was a doctor named Dr. Eberl. He was very ambitious. It was said that he ordered more transports than could be "processed" in the camp. That meant that trains had to wait outside the camp because the occupants of the previous transport had not yet all been killed. At the time it was very hot and as a result of the long wait inside the transport trains in the intense heat many people died. At the time whole mountains of bodies lay on the platform. The Hauptsturmführer Christian Wirth came to Treblinka and kicked up a terrific row. And then one day Dr. Eberl was no longer there

http://www.deathcamps.info/testimonies/deathcamps.htm

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/ftp.py?people//m/mentz.willi/treblinka-testimony

[A. Radek]

Holocaust denier is one of those proforma slurs that dullards and sloganeers like Oberon resort to when they encounter an individual or idea that sets them off-kilter.

'Denier' is one of those words people like me and others use to distinguish your juvenile apeing of academic rhetoric, inverted 'logic', and shallow poseurism from real scholarship and revisionism.

[cerberus]

Its been a buy thread since last night.
Intersting post by Potyondi , I recall seeing photgraphs of the same earth moving machine in "Into that Darknress" ( Serney) , I read it back in the mid 1970's .
No evidence of earth moving , I wonder if the survey machine was switched on or if perhaps the extention lead was not quite long enough.
Surely you can't be so naïve as to believe that no Nazi slave labour died in situ. It would have been an interesting controlled variable. The obvious point was, however, that hundreds of thousands of kilos of stone were shifted from one camp to the other, if only to build roads, and Krege found no evidence at all. How mysterious.

Interesting article in current issue of "After The Battle" on Flossenburg.
Some 30,000 died there as a result of the labour and treatment metted out.
Would the gravel works be any more worker friendly ?

[Dan Dare]

The gravel mined at the Treblinka quarry was used to pave Polish roads, not simply the camp itself. The geological footprint left by such activities at TII alone, however, is shown here:

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/Image180.jpg

For Krege to claim that he found no evidence of soil disturbance at all is plainly fiction which was, as I recall, my original point.

I see you have stumbled upon J.C. Ball's "Air Photo Evidence" from Dissecting the Holocaust. Since you have drawn Ball into the discussion, presumably to assist in refuting Krege, permit me to offer the complete text of Ball's submission concerning Treblinka, rather than the selected fragment you have provided here together with your own expert commentary on what we are supposed to be viewing.

From Dissecting the Holocaust, pp 273-4, ISBN 0 967856 09:

4.2. Mass Graves in So-Called Extermination Camps

4.2.1. Treblinka

Illustration 1 shows an air photo of the Treblinka B camp, taken on May 15, 1944.

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/1167/t24405157mf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

This is theplace where, according to the standard literature, 700,000 to 1.2 million people were killed, buried in the southeastern corner of the camp, later dug up again and burned – all between mid-1942 and autumn of 1943. The camp was demolished in late 1943.

This and other photos reveal the following:

• the surrounding land was cultivated right up to the edge of the camp;

• by virtue of the flat, treeless landscape it was possible to see right into the camp from the fields, as well as from the road running northeastward and from the town of Wolka Okraglik, only half a mile away;

• the place in the southeast area of the camp which the witnesses describe as the location of the mass graves is less than 10,000 m2 (108,000 sq.ft.) in area. Therefore no more than 100,000 bodies could have been buried there. Mass graves for about 1,000,000 bodies would have required an area roughly equal to that of the entire camp (about 25 acres);

Illustration 2 shows an air photo from November 1944.

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/3601/t24411017pg.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Here the area is overgrown fairly uniformly with vegetation (grass, weeds). We can see that:

• except in the northernmost areas, there are no signs of any remnants of building foundations. Even if these had been removed, the vegetation would not grow as well over these areas. The massive concrete gas chamber buildings attested to by witnesses were not present here; at most, there may have been temporary barracks without stone or concrete foundations;

• large-scale movements of the soil and mass cremations in the southeastern part of the camp would have resulted in poorer growth of vegetation there than elsewhere in the camp, due to the destruction of the topsoil, i.e., its mixing with deeper soil layers. Since this is not the case, disturbances of the soil as well as cremations can be ruled out for this area of the camp. The same goes for the surrounding agricultural areas;

• contrary to witness accounts, no trees or bushes were planted on the camp grounds for camouflage purposes.


As we see, Ball reaches a dramatically different conclusion than you; who are we to believe?

[Dan Dare]

It has turned out that I've made a mistake. I confused two aspects of the Holocaust and placed one where it should not have been because of my lack of proximity to the research. I'd even forgotten that I knew who Arad was (ages ago). That is my fault, for assuming that my recollection of my own Holocaust investigations was still accurate after 2 or so years.

No worries, we all make mistakes. Except Oberon of course, who is Immaculately Infallible.

I would like to recommence, addressing Krege specifically and using the older work that Sulla has thankfully recovered for me. Since I have access to the sources now, there should be no more mix-ups. I apologise for my rashness.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I am going to respond to the rest of the semi-coherent dogs dinner that followed the above by simply stating that I am quite happy for Krege's frankly amateurish expedition to be excised from the record. You will not catch me claiming that it was any kind of a substitute for a professional forensic investigation of the T II by an internationally credible scientific team, utilising modern techniques and technology.

Sulla's hand-wringing about the 'obscenity' of such a thought notwithstanding, I have yet to hear a plausible reason why such an investigation should not take place. There are any number of precedents, including as you note the crude efforts made by the Poles over sixty years ago.

[cerberus]

Dan , A local lady from the Treblinka area interviewed told how they were afraid to approach ( knowing better than to) yet they knew from the rail traffic going in and from the smell of decaying flesh that something terrible was going on there.

Ball goes along similar lines about Auschwitz , how easy it was for local people to have seen in and how local people passed food to prisoners.
having visited Auschwitz I don't see this as being plausable.
His photographic evidence , did NASA experts not differ from him ?

[Dan Dare]

Dan , A local laday from the Treblinka area interviewed told how they were afraid to approach ( knowing better than to) yet they knew from the rail traffic going in and from the smell of decaying flesh that something terrible was going on there.

Ball goes along similar lines about Auschwitz , how easy it was for local people to have seen in and how local people passed food to prisoners.
having visited Auschwitz I don't see this as being plausable.
His photographic evidence , is it really good ?
I do doubt it NASA didn't think so and his money challange - a kangroo operation.

Nobody is questioning let alone denying that something went on at Treblinka; the question is what. My point, which appears to be being wilfully obfuscated by you and others, is that all the physical evidence necessary to resolve the question one way or another remains on the site.

In this respect Treblinka is an order of magnitude more interesting than Birkenau and deserves at least the same level of scientific attention as the latter. But curiously there has been no investigation for more than sixty years (at least that we know of).

Concerning Ball and his air photo evidence, both of the photos cited above are identified by their archival references in the US National Archives, so whether they is 'good' or not is somewhat irrelevant. They exist and must be taken for what they are.

[Donny the Punk]

Ball's conclusions are based on the notion that soil disturbance is impossible because of the vigorous (and uniform!) growth of underbrush and weeds. I'd give the man $100 if he could point out a weed in that photo. All I can see are striations and scarrings of the earth's surface. What a very flimsy premise upon which to declare 'disturbances of the soil as well as cremations can be ruled out for this area of the camp'.

[Dan Dare]

I thought you told us above that "...the geological footprint left by such activities at TII alone..." were to be seen in the photo of November 1944.

Could you be a little more precise on the nature of the activities, and where exactly we can discern their 'geological footprint' in the picture that you presented.

[Donny the Punk]

I thought you told us above that "...the geological footprint left by such activities at TII alone..." were to be seen in the photo of November 1944.

Could you be a little more precise on the nature of the activities, and where exactly we can discern their 'geological footprint'.
The precise nature of the geological activities are the mass interrments and later exhumations of corpses conducted by excavators which I wrote about in my earlier post, for which we have evidence from Kurt Franz.

I am not a geologist, but not even a qualified expert could tell you what exactly is shown in the pictures except that they are obviously not of virgin landscape. To take the evidence as a whole, then, instead of trying to isolate it and address it at intervals, the best conclusion to draw about the air photos is that that they represent what we otherwise already know to be true from photographic evidence and witness testimony.

I cannot see any compelling reason why one should believe that a picture taken at thousands of metres above the earth warrants making such sweeping statements as there cannot have been any mass burials at Treblinka, especially when it is already admitted by Holocaust deniers that thousands of prisoners died in the camps from 'disease' and caprice. Can you offer any reasons? Can you offer any evidence that the thousands who inevitably died at the 'transit camp' were moved elsewhere to be buried and if so, where to? Why would the commander at Ostrow complain of the stench of insufficiently buried cadavers if there were no bodies being buried?

I'll leave you to answer those three questions before responding further.

[Dan Dare]

The precise nature of the geological activities are the mass interrments and later exhumations of corpses conducted by excavators which I wrote about in my earlier post, for which we have evidence from Kurt Franz.

I am not a geologist, but not even a qualified expert could tell you what exactly is shown in the pictures except that they are obviously not of virgin landscape. To take the evidence as a whole, then, instead of trying to isolate it and address it at intervals, the best conclusion to draw about the air photos is that that they represent what we otherwise already know to be true from photographic evidence and witness testimony.

I take it then that you now wish to withdraw the earlier assertion that evidence of these alleged activities is visible in the air photo that you earlier presented.

Now to the photographic evidence on offer. Can you please provide a photograph of one of the ‘Treblinka excavators’ that can be definitively placed in the so-called Totenlager area of T II, and which is in the process of exhuming bodies.

I cannot see any compelling reason why one should believe that a picture taken at thousands of metres above the earth warrants making such sweeping statements as there cannot have been any mass burials at Treblinka, especially when it is already admitted by Holocaust deniers that thousands of prisoners died in the camps from 'disease' and caprice. Can you offer any reasons?

You chose to present the aerial photograph as evidence of the ‘geological footprint of “activities”’; I am happy to let it rest as merely an interesting data point.

Can you offer any evidence that the thousands who inevitably died at the 'transit camp' were moved elsewhere to be buried and if so, where to?

No, there is no claim that I am aware of of any physical remains being moved offsite, except for one witness who stated that the road between T II and T I was repaved with such material. It would have been remarkably silly for the SS to have done that after supposedly going to so much trouble to conceal the other evidence of their atrocities.

Witness testimony has it that the ash and bone fragments resulting from the cremation of the 800,000 or bodies were placed in the burial pits from which the bodies were exhumed. That being the case, they should still be there.

Why would the commander at Ostrow complain of the stench of insufficiently buried cadavers if there were no bodies being buried?

Who is claiming that there were no bodies being buried? In fact the existence of mass graves of Polish prisoners at T I is well established. How would somebody in Ostrow be able to determine whether the odours emanated from T I or T II?

I'll leave you to answer those three questions before responding further.

Over and out.

[cerberus]

Nobody is questioning let alone denying that something went on at Treblinka; the question is what. My point, which appears to be being wilfully obfuscated by you and others, is that all the physical evidence necessary to resolve the question one way or another remains on the site.

Potyondi makes the point I was actually driving at - its not the photographs - it is the conclusions drawn from them by Ball, that which he maintains did not take place at Treblinka.
(I saw nothing wrong with the photographs themselves).
The interesting point is that historians don't have any major issues with what did happen at Tredlinka - genocide , and they have a lot more evidence on their hands than the massive conclusions drawn from high altitude recon. photos.

[Trojan]

I'm amazed anyone still quotes John Ball's work. This is the same guy the offerred a $100,000 award.

"To Have Three Air Photo Experts Agree That:

1. The 3D Maps are not accurate copies of the air photos; or
2. Marks were not drawn on August 25, 1944 Auschwitz air photos, as shown in Evidence of Air Photo Tampering.

NOTE: Each expert has to submit a written report with conclusions. The three experts each need to state that one of the above two statements are true. The air photo expert's qualifications need approval by those seeking the reward, and by the author."

Then, when experts came forth to clarify the terms, he just fell off the face of the earth.

Another moron - almost as bad as Krege.

[Donny the Punk]

I take it then that you now wish to withdraw the earlier assertion that evidence of these alleged activities is visible in the air photo that you earlier presented.

Now to the photographic evidence on offer. Can you please provide a photograph of one of the ‘Treblinka excavators’ that can be definitively placed in the so-called Totenlager area of T II, and which is in the process of exhuming bodies.
I have already done so. Perhaps you can provide a reason we should believe that photographs of excavators in an album composed solely of other photographs of TII buildings and personalities, including Franz himself, should have come from any place else.

No, there is no claim that I am aware of of any physical remains being moved offsite, except for one witness who stated that the road between T II and T I was repaved with such material. It would have been remarkably silly for the SS to have done that after supposedly going to so much trouble to conceal the other evidence of their atrocities.
Then you would agree that, even if you refuse to believe that Treblinka was an extermination camp, several thousand prisoners at least must have died and been buried there. Why is this location not addressed in Ball's aerial photographic evidence? Where is the location of these graves? How were they dug and by whom if not by excavators in 1943-44?

Witness testimony has it that the ash and bone fragments resulting from the cremation of the 800,000 or bodies were placed in the burial pits from which the bodies were exhumed. That being the case, they should still be there.
I'm sure they are, as the Polish Central Commission discovered in 1946. The question is, why does not your aerial evidence address this triusm? Where does Ball place burial sites, if any?

Who is claiming that there were no bodies being buried? In fact the existence of mass graves of Polish prisoners at T I is well established. How would somebody in Ostrow be able to determine whether the odours emanated from T I or T II?
The existence of mass graves at Treblinka was well established by Rachel Auerbach and her team in 1946. Since Krege's novice sleuthing is at best totally incompetent and at worst an outright fabrication, you should have no problem with both the IHR's and the Polish Central Commission's conclusions regarding the truth of the matter.

The language contained in the Ostrow report is as follows. "Local Commander Ostrow reports that the Jews in Treblinka are not sufficiently buried and therefore an unbearable smell of corpses befouls the air." Not a hint of surprise or dismay, simply a recital of an accepted reality. You claimed that the slave labourers working at the TI quarry were Poles and not Jews, and yet here we have a camp commandant specifcally referring to the mass death of the latter. Isn't that correct? Why the contradiction in your arguments now, Dan? Even more so when we consider that if Jews were not being sent there to die by the hundreds of thousands, there should have been some consternation raised by the unwarranted diminishing of the Nazi slave labour force, wouldn't you say?

[cerberus]

Revisionist websites have a poor history of outting up money for "proving".
IHR lost a heap of money, Ball just ignored things, and Irving being a bit more street wise offers even less money for a paper he knows and everyone else knows will not surface.
I think Ball had a clause in which allowed him to get out , basically he could define what an expert was and his word was final.

[Dan Dare]

I have already done so.

Then I must have overlooked it. Please provide it again [the photo of the excavator in the process of exhuming bodies].

Perhaps you can provide a reason we should believe that photographs of excavators in an album composed solely of other photographs of TII buildings and personalities, including Franz himself, should have come from any place else.

I'm frankly at a loss as to account for how Franz would have dared to disobey all SS standing orders and produce a photo album of the inner workings of a top-secret Nazi extermination facility.

But just a moment, there aren't any photographs of actual bodies or killing facilities in the album, are there? Just a few excavators moving dirt in a nondescript setting, which looks actually rather like a gravel quarry.

Then you would agree that, even if you refuse to believe that Treblinka was an extermination camp, several thousand prisoners at least must have died and been buried there.

It's certainly possible even if T II were indeed merely a transit camp. It seems very likely that the sick, elderly, children and other 'useless eaters' would have been killed off somewhere, perhaps in the 'Lazarett' at T II.

Why is this location not addressed in Ball's aerial photographic evidence? Where is the location of these graves? How were they dug and by whom if not by excavators in 1943-44?

The location, size and number of mass graves is matter of considerable conjecture. Most reasonable calculations show that the total surface of graves large enough to contain 800,000 cadavers is far larger than the 1.4 Ha total area of the Totenlager, which of course is supposed to have contained other structures as well including two gas chamber buildings, barracks, and the two cremation grills.

I'm sure they are, as the Polish Central Commission discovered in 1946. The question is, why does not your aerial evidence address this triusm? Where does Ball place burial sites, if any?

Again, and not to labour the point, the aerial evidence was presented by yourself not by me. I make no representations about Ball's interpretations of the data.

The existence of mass graves at Treblinka was well established by Rachel Auerbach and her team in 1946.

And this is problematic on at least two counts. First, it indicates that the SS made an uncharacteristically sloppy job of eliminating evidence of mass murder. Second, where are those graves today?

Since Krege's novice sleuthing is at best totally incompetent and at worst an outright fabrication, you should have no problem with both the IHR's and the Polish Central Commission's conclusions regarding the truth of the matter.

I won't embarass you further by quoting here the full text of the IHR article from which you cherry-picked a few select items in an attempt to demolish a straw-man of your own construction. Interested readers can follow your own link above.

The language contained in the Ostrow report is as follows. "Local Commander Ostrow reports that the Jews in Treblinka are not sufficiently buried and therefore an unbearable smell of corpses befouls the air." Not a hint of surprise or dismay, simply a recital of an accepted reality. You claimed that the slave labourers working at the TI quarry were Poles and not Jews, and yet here we have a camp commandant specifcally referring to the mass death of the latter.

I would need to see the full text in context before commenting further, but the fact you have felt obliged to weave in this somewhat inconsequential factoid several times now does rather highlight the threadbare nature of your argument.

Isn't that correct? Why the contradiction in your arguments now, Dan? Even more so when we consider that if Jews were not being sent there to die by the hundreds of thousands, there should have been some consternation raised by the unwarranted diminishing of the Nazi slave labour force, wouldn't you say?

Yes, now you come to mention it, the whole notion of an industrial scale extermination centre at Treblinka does seem extremely far-fetched. I'll have to look up when it was that Himmler instructed the Kommandaturs of the KZs to improve living conditions for inmates and reduce the mortality rate so as to preserve the slave labour force. I seem to recall it was around the same time that Treblinka was supposed to be in full 'production'.

[Sulla the Dictator]

I'm frankly at a loss as to account for how Franz would have dared to disobey all SS standing orders and produce a photo album of the inner workings of a top-secret Nazi extermination facility.

But just a moment, there aren't any photographs of actual bodies or killing facilities in the album, are there? Just a few excavators moving dirt in a nondescript setting, which looks actually rather like a gravel quarry.


Actually I'm looking at a picture of an excavator in the yard about fifty yards away from what looks to be a wooden single story building close to a gate. I don't have a scanner, but if you want to pick up a book called "The Good Old Days" by Ernst Klee you can see it yourself.

[Dan Dare]

Actually I'm looking at a picture of an excavator in the yard about fifty yards away from what looks to be a wooden single story building close to a gate. I don't have a scanner, but if you want to pick up a book called "The Good Old Days" by Ernst Klee you can see it yourself.

Got the book, but I don't need to even open it. The building you refer to supposed to be the "old " gas chamber.

There's a whole muss of excavator pics on deathcamps.org.

[Sulla the Dictator]

By the by, Dan, you're familiar with the fact that these photographs have been analyzed using digital technology?

[Dan Dare]

To what end? Did they find any bodies?

Seriously yes I did a report somewhere. Apparently they have proved conclusively that the tree line in the background in some of the photos is identical to that in the area sixty years later.

GIGO?

[Sulla the Dictator]

Seriously yes I did a report somewhere. Apparently they have proved conclusively that the tree line in the background in some of the photos is identical to that in the area sixty years later.


Well, first of all the detailed examination proved that the photographs were not forged or altered, as Ball originally claimed.

I don't know what this tree line business is. Are you sure you're talking about the same report? I'm talking about the fellow who works with NASA.

[Dan Dare]

Ah I see, you're talking about Ball's air photos, I thought you meant the Franz Treblinka album. My mistake.

[Donny the Punk]

Then I must have overlooked it. Please provide it again [the photo of the excavator in the process of exhuming bodies].
And if I did, would you be satisfied or would you further demand that I produce a photograph of Hitler standing on top of a mountain of gassed Jewish corpses, with pyres of burning cadavers in the background exhumed by nearby excavators with human lumbs dangling from their teeth, holding a sign reading "Wir sind, brennend unhuming und die Leichen von Tausenden Juden wir gassed bei Treblinka" in big, bold letters? This is the Revisionist (capital R) tactic of demanding that people with legitimate interests in history, whose goal is not to rehabilitate Nazism as an ideology, be required to provide the name and birthplace of every individual Jew who was exterminated. That like Cadmus, we should be required to make men spring from the ground - complete with testimony corroborated by digital photography of every step along the way - from the sown teeth of exterminated Jews which are all that remain of a process which was devoted as much to concealing its own traces as to annihilating an entire race and religion. It is a devious method of casting doubt on a discipline which by its very nature deals in fragmentary scraps of evidence in an effort to reconstruct a coherent narrative. More proof exists for the Holocaust than for all previous massacres on earth, from the crucifixion of Spartacus and his slave rebels to the Paris Commune, but you won't see Dan and his Nazi ilk disbelieving those on the basis of The Quest for Truth™.

No, you will instead, as someone purporting to provide a logical alternative to a Treblinka extermination narrative, explain why Kurt Franz would have photos in his picture album of excavators from someplace other than Treblinka. You allude here: "Just a few excavators moving dirt in a nondescript setting, which looks actually rather like a gravel quarry." to the possibility that these were in use at the quarry at TI. Is that why so many Polish slave labourers died that their stink could be smelled twenty kilometres away, because they were operating industrial machinery from the comfort of sealed cockpits? Is that what you would have us believe, Dan?


I'm frankly at a loss as to account for how Franz would have dared to disobey all SS standing orders and produce a photo album of the inner workings of a top-secret Nazi extermination facility.
That would be human nature, the same reason why SS doctor Kremer kept a diary of his extermination activities at Auschwitz. But Dan, if there were no extermination facilities and these were only labour or transit camps, why would there be SS standing orders forbidding personnel from discussing them (as you claim)? The Höfle report describes the activities at Treblinka as a "Geheime Reichssache!" - State Secret! Why would a mere resettlement operation be considered state secret, Dan? What were they hiding evidence of, trains deporting Jews to Russia and Bialystok? That was hardly news at the time.

It's certainly possible even if T II were indeed merely a transit camp. It seems very likely that the sick, elderly, children and other 'useless eaters' would have been killed off somewhere, perhaps in the 'Lazarett' at T II.
So, if it is evident that countless Jews were killed off and buried somewhere, and if the 1946 Polish Commission discovered evidence of mass graves, what compelling reason can you offer us to revisit the site forensically? We've already established that Krege is either a liar or a dunce, so he's not much impetus since he doesn't call into question any previous conclusions. Why should we question whether or not there are mass graves when we are already given photographic evidence that they did exist?

The location, size and number of mass graves is matter of considerable conjecture. Most reasonable calculations show that the total surface of graves large enough to contain 800,000 cadavers is far larger than the 1.4 Ha total area of the [i]Totenlager[/i], which of course is supposed to have contained other structures as well including two gas chamber buildings, barracks, and the two cremation grills.
Really? Let us see these reasonable calculations and the evidence upon which they're based. Perhaps you can answer the following for me. How many whole bodies, and how many bodies reduced to ashes and other partial remains, fit into pits 7.5 metres deep in the burial area more than 20,000 square meters long and wide that was found after the war by the Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland? Was there room enough for, say, the 713,555 Jews from the General Government taken to Treblinka until 12 December 1942, according to the Höfle memorandum, or was there not?


Again, and not to labour the point, the aerial evidence was presented by yourself not by me. I make no representations about Ball's interpretations of the data.
Oh no, you just post his conclusions verbatim and then muse aloud, "Why didn't Potyondi arrive at the same ones?" Very sly, Dan, we've all been taken in.

And this is problematic on at least two counts. First, it indicates that the SS made an uncharacteristically sloppy job of eliminating evidence of mass murder.
As opposed to the more efficient jobs they did of disguising other instances of mass murder? The SS, most notably the Einzatzgruppen, were hardly subtle about their activities, and Treblinka camp commandants were surely more concerned about the advancing Red Army than what future historians would have uncovered from their desperate haste.

Second, where are those graves today?
You mean they've moved in 60 years? Is this some new geological phenomenon I'm not familiar with?


I won't embarass you further by quoting here the full text of the IHR article from which you cherry-picked a few select items in an attempt to demolish a straw-man of your own construction. Interested readers can follow your own link above.
Laughable and pathetic. The IHR article, along with the Commission's finding and their photographic proof demolish the bumbling casuist Krege who was, as interested readers will recall, the prompting for all this hullaballoo. Hardly a straw man, just a dumb one.

I would need to see the full text in context before commenting further, but the fact you have felt obliged to weave in this somewhat inconsequential factoid several times now does rather highlight the threadbare nature of your argument.
Not at all, in fact is is quite relevant. That you haven't once tried to address it except to dismiss it out of hand or ascribe it to the mysterious deaths of countless piles of Jewish (sorry, Polish :rolleyes: ) slave labourers at TI without anyone wondering why is fairly representative of your dodgy and inconcistent position on the whole lot. Here's the text in full:

http://proxify.com/p/011010A1000110/x00013482.687474703a2f2f7777772e67656f6369746965732e636f6d2f706f74796f6e642f64696172792e747874
Kriegstagebuch Nr. 1, daily report from Military Commander in the Generalgouvernement. Entry of 24 October 1942 reads, in the original: "OK Ostrow meldet, dass die Juden in Treblinka nicht ausreichend beerdigt seien und infolgedessen ein unerträglicher Kadavergeruch die Luft verpestet." Translated: 'Supreme Command Ostrow informs that the Jews in Treblinka are not adequately buried and that, as a result, an unbearable body stench befouls the air.'

As previously mentioned, Ostrow is 20km away from Treblinka, to the north-west, and on the same railway line that connects both to Warsaw as can be seen in the following map:
http://proxify.com/p/011010A1000110/x00013161.687474703a2f2f7777772e67656f6369746965732e636f6d2f706f74796f6e642f6d6170322e747874

Note a letter dated 28 July 1942 from the State Secretary for the Transportation Ministry, Albert Ganzenmüller, to Himmler's adjutant, Karl Wolff, containing a passage which Prof. Browning, in his expert opinion submitted at the Irving-Lipstadt trial, translated as follows:

"Since July 22, one train with 5,000 Jews departs daily via Malkinia to Treblinka. Moreover, twice per week a train with 5,000 Jews departs Przemysl for Belzec.”

Aside from demonstrating that Treblinka and Belzec were the final destination for these Jewish transports, it also reveals that Ostrow was on the same railway line as the convoys for both. Yet Dan would have us believe that when Supreme Command of Ostrow complains about the stench of dead Jews coming from Treblinka, they are in fact referring to the stench of dead Poles who died from the stress of pushing buttons and levers inside excavators at TI, because German supreme command clearly made no distinctions between Jews and Poles in official documents and so obviously the entry of the war diary is a malapropism due to ignorance, even though the task of ensuring that Jewish 'resettlement to the east' continued as planned was entrusted specifically to sections under its command. That no one expressed any interest or concern over why so mnay Jews were dying that their decomposition could be smelled twenty kilometres away, even though every Nazi official in the area was assiduously devoted to their 'resettlement' into the Russian Steppe. Is that about right, Dan? Is this the story you believe to be so much more plausible than the official historical account? :p

Yes, now you come to mention it, the whole notion of an industrial scale extermination centre at Treblinka does seem extremely far-fetched. I'll have to look up when it was that Himmler instructed the Kommandaturs of the KZs to improve living conditions for inmates and reduce the mortality rate so as to preserve the slave labour force. I seem to recall it was around the same time that Treblinka was supposed to be in full 'production'.
Better to investigate more immediate authorities, which I shall do here for you and remedy the paucity of information we have on account of the vague assertions and shadowy implications you use to support your calumnies instead of any kind of proof.

There are two official correspondences which point to the fact that Treblinka was an extermination camp. One is the Höfle memorandum intercepted and translated by the British decoding service at Bletchley Park.

The original text of the a.m. Höfle report, courtesy of David Irving:

13/15. OLQ de OMQ 1005 83 234 250

Geheime Reichssache! An den Befehlshaber der Sicherheitspol., zu Händen SS Obersturmbannführer HEIM, KRAKAU. Betr. 14-tägige Meldung Einsatz REINHART. Bezug: dort. Fs. Zugang bis 31.12.42, L 12761,B 0, S 515, T 10335 zusammen 23611. Stand ... 31.12.42, L 24733, B 434508, S 101370, T 71355, zusammen 1274166.

SS und Pol.führer LUBLIN, HOEFLE, Sturmbannführer.

Source of quote: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/...143.html#Hofle

The Höfle report as intercepted and translated by the British decoding service at Bletchley Park, courtesy of historians Peter Witte and Stephen Tyas:

13/15. OLQ de OMQ 1005 83 234 250

State Secret!

To the Senior Commander of the Security Police [and the Security Service], for the attention of SS Obersturmbannfuhrer HEIM, CRACOW.

Subject: fortnightly report Einsatz REINHART.

Reference: radio telegram therefrom.

recorded arrivals until December 31, 42,

L [Lublin] 12,761,

B [Belzec] 0,

S [Sobibor] 515,

T [Treblinka] 10 335 [,]

together 23 611

sum total…[as per] December 31, 42,

L 24 733,

B 434 508,

S 101 370,

T 71 355, read: 713 555]

together 1 274 166

SS and Police Leader Lublin, HOFLE, Sturmbannfuhrer
This document tells us that 713,555 Jews from the Polish General Government arrived at "T" (Treblinka) until 31 December 1942. It also tells us where one of the key figures in the report of Himmler’s statistician Richard Korherr, see below, came from.

The other is the letter I quoted above from the State Secretary for the Transportation Ministry, Albert Ganzenmüller, to Himmler's adjutant, Karl Wolff.

Both above quoted documents clearly show two things:
i) People were being taken to Treblinka at a rate of 5,000 per day since 22 July 1942;
ii) Treblinka was the final destination of these transports (as previously stated).

These correspondences are further elucidated by two official reports: the Stroop Report and the Korherr Report. The former is commented upon and transcribed online under the link http://www.holocaust-history.org/stroop-on-treblinka/

It is relevant insofar as Stroop’s references to "T.II", the Treblinka extermination camp, clearly show that it was a place were people were sent in order to be destroyed there. The most illustrative quote in this respect comes from the following page and translates as follows:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/stroop-report/jpg/strp075.jpg?raw=1
Telegram

From: The SS and Police Leader in the Warsaw District

Warsaw, May 24, 1943

Akz.: I ab -St/Gr- 16 07 - Tgb.Nr. 663/43 secret

Subject.: Large scale ghetto action

Reference: Your telegram Number 946 of May 21, 1943

To the

Higher SS and Police Leader East

SS-Obergruppenf¸hrer and general of the Police

Krüger - o.V.i.A.

Cracow

I respond to the telegram referred to above as follows:

On figure 1

[b]Of the overall total of 56,065 captured Jews, about 7,000 have been destroyed in the course of the large-scale action in the former Jewish living quarter. 6,929 Jews were destroyed by transport to T. II, so that overall, 13,929 Jews were destroyed.[/b][Emphasis mine] It is estimated that, in addition to the number of 56,065, 5 - 6,000 Jews were destroyed by explosions and fire.

On figure 2

631 bunkers were destroyed.

On figure 3 (bounty)

7 Polish weapons, 1 USSR weapon, 1 German weapon, 59 pistols of different calibers, several hundred grenades, both Polish and self-made, a few hundred Molotov cocktails, self-made bombs, infernal maschines with detonators.

Large amounts of dynamite, ammunition for weapons of all calibers, including ammunition for automatic weapons.

In respect of the seizure of weapons, it should be remembered that in most cases, the weapons could not be seized, because, before their capture, the bandits and Jews threw them into hiding places and holes that could not be determined or found. Seizure was also made impossible because of the smoke screens set in the bunkers by our men. Since the blowing up of the bunkers had to be undertaken immediately, there was no question of a subsequent capture.

The hand grenades, explosive ammunition and Molotov cocktails seized by us were immediately employed in fighting the bandits.
- SS-Brigadeführer Jürgen Stroop, Warsaw, 24 May 1943, The Stroop Report: The Warsaw Ghetto Is No More

The Stroop Report alone, therefore, intimates that at the very least over 300,000 Jews were transported to Treblinka for "destruction".

The other document is the Korherr Report, prepared at Himmler’s request by his statistician Richard Korherr. A transcription of the original report can be found online under the following link:

http://www.h-ref.de/dk/vern/stats/korherr.shtml
Der Korherr-Bericht

Eine Statistik der Vernichtung

Irgendwann im Jahr 1940 hat Heinrich Himmler es für notwendig gehalten, die Zahlen zu überprüfen, die ihm von seinen Mitarbeitern unterbreitet wurden. Er forderte aus dem Innenministerium den Versicherungsmathematiker Dr. Richard Korherr an, der statistische Daten zur Entwicklung (genauer: zur Dezimierung) der jüdischen Bevölkerung im Einflussbereich der Nazis zusammenstellen sollte.

Diese Daten wurden im Korherr-Bericht zusammengefasst und Himmler vorgelegt. Korherr "galt als Technokrat, der ganz in seiner Arbeit aufging" (Enzyklopädie), und der Historiker Reitlinger bezeichnet Korherrs Bericht als "vollkommen objektiv"(Endlösung, S. 559) und hält ihn für eine ausgezeichnete Quelle.

Eichmann hat bei seinem Prozess in Jerusalem bestätigt, wie nützlich der "Korherr-Bericht" bei der Planung der "Endlösung" für ihn war, denn mit der Hilfe dieser Daten konnte er Transportkapazitäten, das benötige Personal und die aus seiner Sicht jeweils günstigsten Zielorte der Deportationen bestimmen (vgl. Enzyklopädie).

Korherr hat später, nach dem Zusammenbruch des Naziregimes, zwar behauptet, er hätte nichts von den Massentötungen gewusst, und die Zahlen wären übertrieben, aber Reitlinger hat an der erwähnten Stelle deutlich gemacht, dass die Angaben in Wirklichkeit sehr zuverlässig sind.

Der letzte Absatz des Korherr-Berichts ist besonders interessant, weil er eine Formulierung enthält, die auf raffinierte Weise zweideutig und dennoch entlarvend ist:

Insgesamt dürfte das europäische Judentum seit 1933, also im ersten Jahrzehnt der nationalsozialistischen Machtentfaltung, bald die Hälfte seines Bestandes verloren haben. Davon ist wieder nur etwa die Hälfte, also ein Viertel des europäischen Gesamtbestandes von 1937, den anderen Erdteilen zugeflossen.

Korherr-Bericht[1]

Die Hälfte des Judentums war also "verloren", davon wieder die Hälfte durch Auswanderung. Ein Viertel der europäischen Juden hatte demnach Europa verlassen, ein weiteres Viertel hatte Europa aber nicht verlassen und galt dennoch als "verloren".

Wenn jemand "verloren" ist, dann kann das heißen, er ist nicht mehr da. Für die erste Gruppe - die der Auswanderer - ist das zweifellos richtig. Sie waren für das Judentum "verloren", weil sie Europa verlassen hatten.

Bei der zweiten Gruppe bekommt das Wort "verloren" allerdings eine ganz andere Bedeutung. Die Nazis haben etwa ab 1940 die Politik verfolgt, die Juden an möglichst wenigen Punkten in großen Ghettos zu konzentrieren. Diese Konzentration war eine aus logistischer Sicht sinnvolle Vorstufe der Vernichtung. Die Ghettos wurden scharf überwacht, und wer das Ghetto ohne Erlaubnis verlassen hat, konnte auf der Stelle erschossen werden.

Ende 1942 hatten die Nazis fast ganz Europa besetzt, und aus allen Ländern wurden Juden deportiert. Natürlich geschah dies unter strenger Aufsicht der Nazis, denn es war Krieg, und Hitlers Truppen mussten jederzeit mit Feindseligkeiten und Sabotage rechnen.

Wie sollen die Nazis nun ausgerechnet in dieser Zeit, in der die Juden strengstens beaufsichtigt wurden, ein Viertel aller europäischen Juden - wir reden hier über Millionen von Menschen - einfach "verloren" haben? Das ist undenkbar, denn die Nazis haben sich ja gerade - ganz im Gegenteil - große Mühe geben, alle Juden zu finden und in ihre Gewalt zu bekommen.

Das Wort "verloren" muss hier in seiner anderen Bedeutung verstanden werden. "Verloren" kann hier nichts anderes heißen, als dass die Menschen gestorben sind.

Es mag lächerlich und übertrieben pedantisch scheinen, wenn ich diesen Punkt derart ausführlich betone und begründe, aber angesichts der Interpretationsakrobatik, zu der die Holocaust-Leugner manchmal neigen, hielt ich hielt es für notwendig, von vornherein dem Einwand den Wind aus den Segeln zu nehmen, einige Millionen Juden wären tatsächlich "verloren" worden, wie man ein Taschentuch verliert, und beispielsweise heimlich nach Asien entkommen - womöglich aus streng bewachten Ghettos heraus und an der deutsch-russischen Front vorbei; vielleicht nicht unbedingt zu Fuß, denn wir reden hier über Tausende von Kilometern, aber eventuell doch irgendwie unbemerkt in den Zügen, die nach Osten zur Front gefahren sind.

Was hier wie ein geschmackloser Scherz klingt, ist bitterer Ernst. Es gibt tatsächlich Holocaust-Leugner, die behaupten, in Sibirien wären Millionen von Juden "aufgetaucht". Wenn sie aber dort aufgetaucht sein sollen, dann müssen sie vorher unter den gerade eben umrissenen Bedingungen nach Sibirien geflohen sein - und das würde voraussetzen, dass sie im Sinne der ersten Bedeutung des Wortes "verloren" wurden, dass sie also einfach verschwunden sind.

Das ist natürlich absurd. Die richtige und viel einfachere Erklärung für die "verlorenen" Juden ist die, dass sie erst in Ghettos konzentriert und dann in Zügen in die Vernichtungslager befördert und ermordet worden sind.

Korherr war die Situation in Europa bekannt, und ich bin überzeugt, dass Korherr die zweideutige Formulierung absichtlich verwendet hat, um mit einem Wort beide Gruppen gleichzeitig zu erfassen: Die eine Gruppe, die "verloren" wurde, weil sie auswandern konnte, und die andere Gruppe, die "verloren" war, weil die Menschen ermordet worden sind.

Wenn Korherr durchblicken lässt, dass diese Menschen innerhalb von Europa unter strengster Aufsicht der Nazis "verloren" wurden, dann kann dies nur bedeuten, dass sie gestorben sind - und zwar in genau den Vernichtungslagern, von denen Korherr nichts gewußt haben will.

A translation of the Report yields the following passage:

"4. Transportation of Jews from the

eastern provinces to the Russian

East: ............................ 1 449 692 "

The following numbers were sifted

through the camps in the General

government ............. ........ 1 274 166 Jews

through the camps in the Warthegau..... 145 301 Jews"


The "camps in the Warthegau" was Chelmno extermination camp, and the "camps in the General Government" were the Aktion Reinhardt camps Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka and the Lublin-Majdanek camp, the latter obviously because it was considered more practical to send Jews from Lublin to Majdanek as soon as that camp had extermination facilities instead of sending them to far-away Belzec or Sobibor. The figure of 1,274,166 Jews mentioned in that report is obviously the figure from the above quoted Höfle memorandum, which means that Korherr’s figure is broken down as follows:

Lublin-Majdanek 24,733

Belzec 434,508

Sobibor 101,370

Treblinka 713,555

Total 1,274,166

In the original version of the report, Korherr used the term "Sonderbehandlung", i.e. "special treatment", in regard to the Jews mentioned in this item of his report. This term, which was a bureaucratic euphemism for killing commonly used in the context of the "Final Solution", must have become too worn and thus transparent by the time Korherr submitted his report to Himmler, for which reason Himmler’s adjutant Karl Brandt, in a letter dated 10/4/1943 required Korherr to refrain from using the term "Sonderbehandlung" and to word the quoted paragraph as it was finally worded:

Der Reichsführer-SS Feld-Kommandostelle 10.4.1943

Persönlicher Stab

Tgb. Nr. [Stempel: Geheime Reichssache]

-V.

2 Ausfertigungen

2. Ausfertigung


An den

Inspekteur für Statistik, PG. Korherr

B e r l i n

Der Reichsführer SS hat Ihren statistischen

Bericht über "Die Endlösung der europäischen Judenfrage"

erhalten. Er wünscht, dass an keiner Stelle von "Sonderbehand-

lung der Juden" gesprochen wird . Auf Seite 9, Punkt 4, muß es

folgendermaßen heißen:



"Transportierung von Juden aus den

Ostprovinzen nach dem russischen Osten:

Es wurden durchgeschleust

durch die Lager im Generalgouvernement .....

durch die Lager im Warthegau ..............."[1]



Eine andere Formulierung darf nicht genommen werden.

Ich sende das vom Reichsführer-SS bereits abgezeichnete Exemplar

des Berichtes zurück mit der Bitte, diese Seite 9 entsprechend

abzuändern und es wieder zurückzusenden.

SS-Obersturmbannführer

1 Anlage
The new terminology, "transportation to the Russian East", has Dan and other Holocaust 'Revisionists' to maintain that the term is to be taken literally and that those 1,274,166 Jews from the General Government, plus approximately a quarter of a million more sent to the Aktion Reinhardt camps in 1943, were actually transported to somewhere in the occupied territories of the Soviet Union and resettled there, and that Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka were transit camps on the route to those resettlement areas.


Question for for you Dan:

1. According to Gunnar Heinsohn’s Lexikon der Völkermorde (Rowohlt Taschenbuch Verlag GmbH, Hamburg, 1998), there were ca. 3,300,000 Jews living on Polish soil in September, 1939.

2. In a speech on November 16, 1941, Governor of Poland Hans Frank stated the following:

One way or another -- I will tell you quite openly -- we must finish off the Jews. The Fuehrer put it into words once: should united Jewry again succeed in setting off a world war, then the blood sacrifice shall not be made only by the peoples driven into war, but then the Jew of Europe will have met his end.... But what should be done with the Jews? Can you believe that they will be accommodated in settlements in the Ostland? In Berlin we were told: why are you making all this trouble? We don't want them either, not in Ostland nor in the Reichskommissariat; liquidate them yourselves! Gentlemen, I must ask you to steel yourselves against all considerations of compassion. We must destroy the Jews wherever we find them, and wherever it is at all possible, in order to maintain the whole structure of the Reich... The Jews represent for us also extraordinary malignant gluttons. We have now approximately 2,500,000 of them in the General Government [part of Nazi occupied Poland], perhaps with the Jewish mixtures and everything that goes with it, 3,500,000 Jews. We cannot shoot or poison those 3,500,000 Jews, but we shall nevertheless be able to take measures which will lead somehow to their annihilation, and this in connection with the gigantic measures to be determined in discussions with the Reich.

Source of quote: [Documents on the Holocaust - Edited by Y. Arad, Y. Gutman, A. Margaliot, NY, Ktav Pub. House in Association with Yad-Vashem, 1981, p. 247, Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1946 Vol. II p. 634]

3. The protocol of the Wannsee Conference on 20 January 1942, the text of which in German and English can be found under

http://library.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/germ/wanneng.html

mentioned 420,000 Jews living in the “Ostgebiete”, 2,284,000 in the “Generalgouvernement” and 400,000 in “Bialystok” at the beginning of 1942.

4. According to Heinsohn, there were 380,000 Polish Jews left at the end of the war, 60,000 of them on Polish soil. Today, Jews are not even mentioned as an ethnic group in Poland by the CIA World Factbook.

What happened to the 2.920.000 Polish Jews (ca. 88 % of the original population) who disappeared between 1939 and 1945?

Did they emigrate to Palestine (population in 2000: 5,842,454, thereof Europe/America-born 32.1%, according to the CIA World Factbook), the Soviet Union (population of Belorussia in 2000: 10,366,719, thereof Byelorussian 77.9%, Russian 13.2%, Polish 4.1%, Ukrainian 2.9%, other 1.9%; population of Ukraine in 2000: 49,153,027, thereof Ukrainian 73%, Russian 22%, Jewish 1%, other 4%; population of Russia in 2000: 146,001,176, thereof Russian 81.5%, Tatar 3.8%, Ukrainian 3%, Chuvash 1.2%, Bashkir 0.9%, Byelorussian 0.8%, Moldavian 0.7%, other 8.1%; indigenous Jewish population of the Soviet Union in 1942 according to the protocol of the Wannsee conference: 5,000.000) and/or the United States (population in 2000: 275,562,673; thereof 2 % belonging to the Jewish religion), between 1939 and 1945?

If so, how did they manage?

Were they sent to Madagascar?

Did they disappear in the Gulag during the Soviet occupation of Eastern Poland between 1939 and 1941? If so, is there any evidence in that direction?

Did they become collateral casualties of war, or succumb to selective killing of their “intelligentsia”, forced labour, reprisal killings, starvation, disease and hardship, as happened to a much smaller fraction (less than 10 %) of the Polish Gentile population?

Did they succumb to the plague, to an early version of AIDS or to another epidemic that Jews are more susceptible to than Gentiles?

Were they abducted by flying saucers?

Or what is it that happened to them?

A few more questions to keep you busy, asked years ago by friend and Holocaust schaolar Roberto Muehlenkamp, which have never received satisfactory response. Perhaps you can rise to the challenge.

1. Court experts and historians who have assessed the documentary evidence concluded that all pertinent documents – correspondence among officials as well as train schedules, timetables and other transportation documents – clearly point to Belzec, Sobibor or Treblinka as the final destinations. There is not a single document, however detailed, that even hints at the Jews taken to these camps going any further. Why would this be so if the camps were "transit camps" en route to the occupied territories of the Soviet Union?

2. The rail line leading to Treblinka was a sidetrack of the line going from Warsaw to Bialystok in Northeast Poland. Bialystok was the closest point to the Soviet Union, anyone from Treblinka being resettled in the Soviet occupied territory had to pass through there. Yet a German railroad table for Bialystok shows Jews being taken from there to Treblinka, with the empty cars returning to Bialystok. In other words, they were being moved away from the Soviet territories by being sent to Treblinka. Why was this so?

3. The resettlement of ca. 1.5 million people in the occupied territories of the Soviet Union would have been a complex operation, requiring hundreds if not thousands of German officials to carry it out and at least as many people involved in building projects. Yet no one has ever come forward to testify about such a resettlement, even though this would have made an ideal defense at the Nuremberg War Crimes Trial and subsequent trials. Former high-ranking transportation specialists in Germany during the war did not offer Soviet resettlement as a defense in post-war trials, even though they denied having known the real purpose of the train transport. No war crimes defendant actually offered resettlement as a defense, even those who denied knowledge of the genocide. Why was this so?

4. As becomes apparent from a number of documents regarding the "economic aspects" of "Operation Reinhard" (alternatively spelled "Reinhardt" or "Reinhart", I’ll use the "Reinhard" spelling for convenience in the following), the Jews taken to Belzec, Sobibor or Treblinka were stripped of all their belongings there, including their clothing. Why would that have been done if they were going to be resettled – unless "resettlement" was to be to a place where they would need no clothing anymore?

5. Why would the Nazis, concerned as they were about preserving their own resources and robbing the Jews of everything they had, have invested large sums of money – far more than the costs of the killing operation, which are exactly known from Globocnik’s correspondence with Himmler – into a resettlement project? Or are the Jews supposed to have been simply shoved across the border and left there to die of starvation, exposure and disease? If so, wouldn’t that be similar to the way Stalin got rid of the "kulaks" and no less a crime than the mass killing at the extermination camps?

[Dan Dare]

That squeakling sound we hear is only Potty and his pals changing the scenery since the last act didn't play too well.

And if I did, would you be satisfied or would you further demand that I produce a photograph of Hitler standing on top of a mountain of gassed Jewish corpses, with pyres of burning cadavers in the background exhumed by nearby excavators with human lumbs dangling from their teeth, holding a sign reading "Wir sind, brennend unhuming und die Leichen von Tausenden Juden wir gassed bei Treblinka" in big, bold letters?

I'd only be serious buyer if you could get someone to work on the mangled syntax.

And nice to see Höfle making a cameo appearance, it's traditional in threads of this type, but we'll attend to that later.

[Donny the Punk]

Nice to see you making an appearance at all; were I a Holocaust denier, I'd be hiding my face for shame. I do expect answers to my questions, by the way, not more typical Dan Dare kitty litter innuendo and topic shifting.

[Dan Dare]

At least let us agree that, contrary to your earlier assertions, there is no pictorial evidence of excavators engaged in the process of exhumation in the Totenlager at T II and then we can move on.

[Sulla the Dictator]

That squeakling sound we hear is only Potty and his pals changing the scenery since the last act didn't play too well.


Strange. I thought he brought down the house.

A rather thorough refutation, if I'm any judge of such things. Which I am, after this my 100,000th Holocaust thread. :p

[Dan Dare]

Strange. I thought he brought down the house.

A rather thorough refutation, if I'm any judge of such things. Which I am, after this my 100,000th Holocaust thread. :p

refutation of what?:confused:

[Sulla the Dictator]

refutation of what?:confused:

Wasn't it your position that the poorly buried remains which were responsible for an odor for miles was the last resting place of Polish slaves, rather than Jewish undesirables?

[Donny the Punk]

At least let us agree that, contrary to your earlier assertions, there is no pictorial evidence of excavators engaged in the process of exhumation in the Totenlager at T II and then we can move on.
Let us not agree, since you are trying to bundle two things into a package and pass them off as one. I see pictoral evidence for excavators engaged in massive digging operations at T.II which, based on the other non-pictoral evidence, leads me to the conclusion that they are there for the purpose of exhuming corpses. REAL historians, Dan Dare (take note), do not isolate a single fragment of evidence and attempt to prove or disprove massive contentions using only it, and it alone. They combine peripheral and ancillary pieces of evidence, often from disparate sources, to establish an account which best fits them all in a coherent manner as possible.

On top of what we have above, we know that Rudolf Reder testified in 1945 that he had used Menck & Hambrock type Ma excavators at Belzec (whose commission would have come through the same channels as that of all the Aktion Reinhardt extermination camps, likely one of the two bucket excavators to be purchased from a company in Holland, requested by Odilo Globocnik to Untersturmführer Hans Offermann in September of 1942) which, as he testified, "dug the earth out of pits which served as graves for those gassed." When a) there was no quarry at Belzec and b) Reder, who operated nigh identical equipment (Treblinka used cable and not bucket excavators), declares that it was used for digging burial pits, the evidence suggests to me and all other reasonable human beings that they were being used for purposes other than gravel removal, especially when slave labour was on hand to do the job anyway. Eichmann's post-war testimony further corroborates that ditches dug at Belzec by virtually the same equipment were used for corpse disposal, just as in Treblinka, reinforcing the conclusion already arrived at by aforementioned evidence.

So no, we will not be finding any common ground upon which you can peddle your deception. Next.

[Sulla the Dictator]

refutation of what?:confused:

And what is Treblinka other than the focal point for your denial of all the Aktion Reinhardt camps?

[Donny the Punk]

Wasn't it your position that the poorly buried remains which were responsible for an odor for miles was the last resting place of Polish slaves, rather than Jewish undesirables?
It was also his position that "the whole notion of an industrial scale extermination centre at Treblinka does seem extremely far-fetched", although my post wasn't so much a refutation as a pre-emption since he provided no evidence for such a statement.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Don't get me wrong Dan, you seem to be a formidable advocate for your position on this subject. Rivaling O'Reilly, it would seem.

But you've got to admit it was a good post. :p

[Dan Dare]

Let us not agree, since you are trying to bundle two things into a package and pass them off as one.

Not at all. I am merely looking for closure on the following exchange:

Dan Dare: Can you please provide a photograph of one of the ‘Treblinka excavators’ that can be definitively placed in the so-called Totenlager area of T II, and which is in the process of exhuming bodies.

Potyondi: I have already done so.

Dan Dare: Then I must have overlooked it. Please provide it again

PotyondiAnd if I did, would you be satisfied ...

Let's just say it would be an extremely helpful corroborative element.

I see pictoral evidence for excavators engaged in massive digging operations at T.II

Can you demonstrate how you have reached this conclusion?

[Dan Dare]

And what is Treblinka other than the focal point for your denial of all the Aktion Reinhardt camps?

Isn't this what they call in the legal trade a leading question?

You still haven't qualified what it is you feel Potty has refuted so thoroughly.

[Dan Dare]

Wasn't it your position that the poorly buried remains which were responsible for an odor for miles was the last resting place of Polish slaves, rather than Jewish undesirables?

No you have misread the point. It was that someone 20 km away would be hard put to determine whether the odours in question emanated from T I or T II. The two camps were less than two miles apart.

[Donny the Punk]

Not at all. I am merely looking for closure on the following exchange:

Dan Dare: Can you please provide a photograph of one of the ‘Treblinka excavators’ that can be definitively placed in the so-called Totenlager area of T II, and which is in the process of exhuming bodies.

Potyondi: I have already done so.

Dan Dare: Then I must have overlooked it. Please provide it again

PotyondiAnd if I did, would you be satisfied ...

Let's just say it would be an extremely helpful corroborative element.

To accomplish what? Convince you that I'm right? We all know that no amount of evidence will accomplish that. No, rather, I have more than lived up to the onus of an interested if amateur historian to prove that Treblinka was an extermination camp, contrary to your pointed (but unsupported) statements to the contrary. My position does not require any more corroborative elements, as all the available evidence currently points in that one direction alone. "Helpful" resolution of ambiguity in this case would be defined by clarifying some legitimate point of contention where reasonable doubt exists as to what occurred. Thus far I have seen no such points raised, nor any contradictory evidence offered. So Dan, the onus shall be on you and not me to prove whatever is it you're trying to say about the excavators at Treblinka (if you ever get around to specifying exactly what that is).


Can you demonstrate how you have reached this conclusion?
Sorry? I'm not going to repeat myself with cut and pastes. Everything is right there, which is very convenient for you, I might add.

[Dan Dare]

Very well, then let the record show that Potty has declined to rise to the challenge, and we shall now move on to other matters.

It's getting rather late so I shall continue tomorrow.

[Sulla the Dictator]

No you have misread the point. It was that someone 20 km away would be hard put to determine whether the odours in question emanated from T I or T II. The two camps were less than two miles apart.

Thats fine. But what they won't confuse are living people with dead ones. They can't be concerned about adequately burying victims they didn't kill, even if they're mistaking it with different victims.

[Donny the Punk]

Very well, then let the record show that Potty has declined to rise to the challenge, and we shall now move on to other matters.

It's getting rather late so I shall continue tomorrow.
Amusing, in a petty sort of way. There is no challenge here, either to the narrative or to the individual point. Heaps of of physical and testimonial data attest to both, but rather than make an actual case, Dan dare would rather niggle and carp for an hour over a photograph - of a process which was all the while attempting to conceal itself - for not showing him dangling Jew bits everywhere and a big billboard in the back reading "WELCOME TO TREBLINKA" for his satisfaction.

He would present himself as some sort of weird guerrilla attacking 60 years of official propaganda and lies even though no such edifice exists, trying to put truth-tellers eternally on the defensive by implying sweeping and dramatic conclusions are to plucked from gaps (not elisions, it should be noted) in an evidentiary record less fragmentary than most. But when he, in turn, is asked repeatedly to make some counter-claims of his own, or to provide concrete answers to salient questions about 'Revisionism', and to support both with something, anything aside from allusion and metaphor, he grins through broken teeth and declares himself so victorious that he'll not reply at all. Inspiring.

[Fade the Butcher]

Amusing, in a petty sort of way. There is no challenge here, either to the narrative or to the individual point. Heaps of of physical and testimonial data attest to both, but rather than make an actual case, Dan dare would rather niggle and carp for an hour over a photograph - of a process which was all the while attempting to conceal itself - for not showing him dangling Jew bits everywhere and a big billboard in the back reading "WELCOME TO TREBLINKA" for his satisfaction.

He would present himself as some sort of weird guerrilla attacking 60 years of official propaganda and lies even though no such edifice exists, trying to put truth-tellers eternally on the defensive by implying sweeping and dramatic conclusions are to plucked from gaps (not elisions, it should be noted) in an evidentiary record less fragmentary than most. But when he, in turn, is asked repeatedly to make some counter-claims of his own, or to provide concrete answers to salient questions about 'Revisionism', and to support both with something, anything aside from allusion and metaphor, he grins through broken teeth and declares himself so victorious that he'll not reply at all. Inspiring.

A long winded rhetorical flourish from Potyondi. I can only sigh in relief that he finished bellowing out his hot air without going on for another several paragraphs. Few people have ever said so little in so many words. :p

[Dan Dare]

Indeed. we have a saying where I come from:

"Fine words butter no parsnips"

It could have been coined for Potty.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Isn't this what they call in the legal trade a leading question?


A bit coy, no?


You still haven't qualified what it is you feel Potty has refuted so thoroughly.

Dan Dare: No-one is disputing the existence of a quarry in the Arbeitslager known as Treblinka I in the officially approved account, but even Arad concedes that the prisoners there were Poles not Jews.

Dan Dare: Who is claiming that there were no bodies being buried? In fact the existence of mass graves of Polish prisoners at T I is well established. How would somebody in Ostrow be able to determine whether the odours emanated from T I or T II?

Dan Dare: I'm frankly at a loss as to account for how Franz would have dared to disobey all SS standing orders and produce a photo album of the inner workings of a top-secret Nazi extermination facility.

But just a moment, there aren't any photographs of actual bodies or killing facilities in the album, are there? Just a few excavators moving dirt in a nondescript setting, which looks actually rather like a gravel quarry.

Dan Dare: Yes, now you come to mention it, the whole notion of an industrial scale extermination centre at Treblinka does seem extremely far-fetched. I'll have to look up when it was that Himmler instructed the Kommandaturs of the KZs to improve living conditions for inmates and reduce the mortality rate so as to preserve the slave labour force. I seem to recall it was around the same time that Treblinka was supposed to be in full 'production'.


From a cursory browsing of the past couple of pages. These have been countered in argument. It would be gentlemanly to cede the points if you do not wish to rebutt.

[Sulla the Dictator]

A long winded rhetorical flourish from Potyondi. I can only sigh in relief that he finished bellowing out his hot air without going on for another several paragraphs. Few people have ever said so little in so many words.


(Cough) :p

[Dan Dare]

A bit coy, no?

For reasons enunciated throughout this discussison I think that despite Potty's attempts to pull us off course it would best for the present to confine this thread to its original topic viz. Treblinka.



Dan Dare: No-one is disputing the existence of a quarry in the Arbeitslager known as Treblinka I in the officially approved account, but even Arad concedes that the prisoners there were Poles not Jews.

Dan Dare: Who is claiming that there were no bodies being buried? In fact the existence of mass graves of Polish prisoners at T I is well established. How would somebody in Ostrow be able to determine whether the odours emanated from T I or T II?

Dan Dare: I'm frankly at a loss as to account for how Franz would have dared to disobey all SS standing orders and produce a photo album of the inner workings of a top-secret Nazi extermination facility.

But just a moment, there aren't any photographs of actual bodies or killing facilities in the album, are there? Just a few excavators moving dirt in a nondescript setting, which looks actually rather like a gravel quarry.

Dan Dare: Yes, now you come to mention it, the whole notion of an industrial scale extermination centre at Treblinka does seem extremely far-fetched. I'll have to look up when it was that Himmler instructed the Kommandaturs of the KZs to improve living conditions for inmates and reduce the mortality rate so as to preserve the slave labour force. I seem to recall it was around the same time that Treblinka was supposed to be in full 'production'.


From a cursory browsing of the past couple of pages. These have been countered in argument. It would be gentlemanly to cede the points if you do not wish to rebutt.

It would help to have what you feel are Potty's refutations printed against each point above. Thank you.

[Sulla the Dictator]

It would help to have what you feel are Potty's refutations printed against each point above. Thank you.

So you want me to edit Potyondi's argument in summary for you to respond to? :p

[Donny the Punk]

A long winded rhetorical flourish from Potyondi. I can only sigh in relief that he finished bellowing out his hot air without going on for another several paragraphs. Few people have ever said so little in so many words. :p
I consider it my perquisite, as the only individual to have offered any content in this thread. :)

[Fade the Butcher]

And if I did, would you be satisfied or would you further demand that I produce a photograph of Hitler standing on top of a mountain of gassed Jewish corpses, with pyres of burning cadavers in the background exhumed by nearby excavators with human lumbs dangling from their teeth, holding a sign reading "Wir sind, brennend unhuming und die Leichen von Tausenden Juden wir gassed bei Treblinka" in big, bold letters? This is the Revisionist (capital R) tactic of demanding that people with legitimate interests in history, whose goal is not to rehabilitate Nazism as an ideology, be required to provide the name and birthplace of every individual Jew who was exterminated. That like Cadmus, we should be required to make men spring from the ground - complete with testimony corroborated by digital photography of every step along the way - from the sown teeth of exterminated Jews which are all that remain of a process which was devoted as much to concealing its own traces as to annihilating an entire race and religion. It is a devious method of casting doubt on a discipline which by its very nature deals in fragmentary scraps of evidence in an effort to reconstruct a coherent narrative. More proof exists for the Holocaust than for all previous massacres on earth, from the crucifixion of Spartacus and his slave rebels to the Paris Commune, but you won't see Dan and his Nazi ilk disbelieving those on the basis of The Quest for Truth™.

Here too. I don't see anything substantial in the rhetorical lard of this nonresponsive paragraph.

[Dan Dare]

So you want me to edit Potyondi's argument in summary for you to respond to? :p

Since you find them so compelling why not. But please spare us by being as succinct as possible.

Thanks in advance.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Here too. I don't see anything substantial in the rhetorical lard of this nonresponsive paragraph.

He accurately sums up the essence and the technique of Holocaust denial. And if I wasn't subtle enough before, you're one to talk. :p

[Donny the Punk]

Here too. I don't see anything substantial in the rhetorical lard of this nonresponsive paragraph.
Why Fade, what colour are your pom poms? Or were all these cheers and leaps in the air for Dan just your warmup for the doubtless erudite Treblinka criticism to follow?

[Sulla the Dictator]

Since you find them so compelling why not.


Because its bad form. I'm not editing someone elses post for your convenience when they took the time to write it in order to help you come into the fold of legitimate historical analysis. :cool:

[Dan Dare]

Because its bad form. I'm not editing someone elses post for your convenience when they took the time to write it in order to help you come into the fold of legitimate historical analysis. :cool:

Ah right-oh.

I can see how this might put you on the spot. Making silk purses out of sows' ears requires rather more gumption than you appear to have at your disposal.

Perhaps Potty himself might oblige in this case since his chief familiar has demurred?

[Fade the Butcher]

I consider it my perquisite, as the only individual to have offered any content in this thread. :)

You are the only person in this thread who I have seen post the equivilant of five paragraphs of text without making a single substantial point.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Ah right-oh.

I can see how this might put you on the spot. Making silk purses out of sows' ears requires rather more gumption than you appear to have at your disposal.

Perhaps Potty himself might oblige in this case since his chief familiar has demurred?

:rolleyes: Don't blame your laziness on me.

[Fade the Butcher]

Dan Dare: Then I must have overlooked it. Please provide it again [the photo of the excavator in the process of exhuming bodies].

Potyondi: And if I did, would you be satisfied or would you further demand that I produce a photograph of Hitler standing on top of a mountain of gassed Jewish corpses, with pyres of burning cadavers in the background exhumed by nearby excavators with human lumbs dangling from their teeth, holding a sign reading "Wir sind, brennend unhuming und die Leichen von Tausenden Juden wir gassed bei Treblinka" in big, bold letters? This is the Revisionist (capital R) tactic of demanding that people with legitimate interests in history, whose goal is not to rehabilitate Nazism as an ideology, be required to provide the name and birthplace of every individual Jew who was exterminated. That like Cadmus, we should be required to make men spring from the ground - complete with testimony corroborated by digital photography of every step along the way - from the sown teeth of exterminated Jews which are all that remain of a process which was devoted as much to concealing its own traces as to annihilating an entire race and religion. It is a devious method of casting doubt on a discipline which by its very nature deals in fragmentary scraps of evidence in an effort to reconstruct a coherent narrative. More proof exists for the Holocaust than for all previous massacres on earth, from the crucifixion of Spartacus and his slave rebels to the Paris Commune, but you won't see Dan and his Nazi ilk disbelieving those on the basis of The Quest for Truth™.

No, you will instead, as someone purporting to provide a logical alternative to a Treblinka extermination narrative, explain why Kurt Franz would have photos in his picture album of excavators from someplace other than Treblinka. You allude here: "Just a few excavators moving dirt in a nondescript setting, which looks actually rather like a gravel quarry." to the possibility that these were in use at the quarry at TI. Is that why so many Polish slave labourers died that their stink could be smelled twenty kilometres away, because they were operating industrial machinery from the comfort of sealed cockpits? Is that what you would have us believe, Dan?

FadeTheButcher: Where does Potyondi answer the question? :p

[Donny the Punk]

Ah right-oh.

I can see how this might put you on the spot. Making silk purses out of sows' ears requires rather more gumption than you appear to have at your disposal.

Perhaps Potty himself might oblige in this case since his chief familiar has demurred?
There is no compelling reason on earth why I should summarise my work into 'Potyondi's Guide to Treblinka for Dummies' just because you're too lazy to respond in kind. But I've seen this in every thread you and I have ever posted in. When you can't rise to the occasion, which seems to be every occasion, you rather un-surreptitiously deign not to quote the relevant bits in your replies and then feign smugness to compensate. 90% of that landmark post is evidence in the form of primary documents, all of which you are called upon to address. You have questions to answer, Dan. Lots of them, and serious ones, too. Time to put up or shut up.
You are the only person in this thread who I have seen post the equivilant of five paragraphs of text without making a single substantial point.
Aside from Sulla, I am the only person in this thread to have made a single substantial point. Take off the uniform and attend to your own affairs, Fade; you're way out of your league on this one, as is your master Dan. :p

FadeTheButcher: Where does Potyondi answer the question?

To quote you elsewhere, "you should reread my posts in this thread."

[Fade the Butcher]

You have questions to answer, Dan. Time to put up or shut up.

I have noticed this is a common tactic of yours. Dan makes a point. You respond, not by addressing the point, but sometimes either by talking to yourself or asking Dan like fifteen or twenty questions (half of which are retarded). Which one do you want him to answer?

Take off the uniform and attend to your own affairs, Fade; you're way out of your league on this one, as is your master Dan. :p

I don't profess to be an authority on the Holocaust. I don't have any dog in this fight. I'm just trying to follow this debate and learn something here (and, I will be the first to admit, you have made some good points in this discussion). Can you please do us all a favor though and knock off your longwinded pretentious bullshit? Your posts would be more readable if you left that crap out.

Now . . . where is the photo of the excavator in the process of exhuming bodies? Please respond by . . .

A.) Telling us where such a photo can be found (or, better yet, posting it for us all to see) or by saying . . .
B.) Fade, the photo you have requested does not exist.

Thanx. :)

[Fade the Butcher]

To quote you elsewhere, "you should reread my posts in this thread."

Are you saying the answer cannot be found in all of this? :p

And if I did, would you be satisfied or would you further demand that I produce a photograph of Hitler standing on top of a mountain of gassed Jewish corpses, with pyres of burning cadavers in the background exhumed by nearby excavators with human lumbs dangling from their teeth, holding a sign reading "Wir sind, brennend unhuming und die Leichen von Tausenden Juden wir gassed bei Treblinka" in big, bold letters? This is the Revisionist (capital R) tactic of demanding that people with legitimate interests in history, whose goal is not to rehabilitate Nazism as an ideology, be required to provide the name and birthplace of every individual Jew who was exterminated. That like Cadmus, we should be required to make men spring from the ground - complete with testimony corroborated by digital photography of every step along the way - from the sown teeth of exterminated Jews which are all that remain of a process which was devoted as much to concealing its own traces as to annihilating an entire race and religion. It is a devious method of casting doubt on a discipline which by its very nature deals in fragmentary scraps of evidence in an effort to reconstruct a coherent narrative. More proof exists for the Holocaust than for all previous massacres on earth, from the crucifixion of Spartacus and his slave rebels to the Paris Commune, but you won't see Dan and his Nazi ilk disbelieving those on the basis of The Quest for Truth™.

No, you will instead, as someone purporting to provide a logical alternative to a Treblinka extermination narrative, explain why Kurt Franz would have photos in his picture album of excavators from someplace other than Treblinka. You allude here: "Just a few excavators moving dirt in a nondescript setting, which looks actually rather like a gravel quarry." to the possibility that these were in use at the quarry at TI. Is that why so many Polish slave labourers died that their stink could be smelled twenty kilometres away, because they were operating industrial machinery from the comfort of sealed cockpits? Is that what you would have us believe, Dan?

[Donny the Punk]

I have noticed this is a common tactic of yours. Dan makes a point. You respond, not by addressing the point, but sometimes either by talking to yourself or asking Dan like fifteen or twenty questions (half of which are retarded). Which one do you want him to answer?

Really? Name a single point Dan has made concerning his allegation that "the whole notion of an industrial scale extermination centre at Treblinka does seem extremely far-fetched." I'd be interested in seeing one.

I don't profess to be an authority on the Holocaust.
For obvious reasons.
I don't have any dog in this fight.
Lol, spare us, Fade. :p You seem to think everyone was born yesterday. We've all known you for 5 years; you can cut the crap by now.

I'm just trying to follow this debate and learn something here (and, I will be the first to admit, you have made some good points in this discussion). Can you please do us all a favor though and knock off your longwinded pretentious bullshit? Your posts would be more readable if you left that crap out.
What you call longwinded pretentious bullshit was, in the first case, an accurate description of tactics and goals of Holocaust deniers and in later cases, the only response one could make to Dan Dare's utter unrepsonsiveness except to dish out a few insults. Perhaps you can offer an example of the content-rich reply one should make to "Potty has declined to rise to the challenge" or "Making silk purses out of sows' ears requires rather more gumption than you appear to have at your disposal." All the more so considering that all the evidence I need to support my claims in this thread has been provided above, were Dan not too lazy (and, it is beginning to appear, unable) to formulate coherent responses to any of them.

Now . . . where is the photo of the excavator in the process of exhuming bodies? Please respond by . . .

A.) Telling us where such a photo can be found (or, better yet, posting it for us all to see) or by saying . . .
The photo is linked to in one of my earlier posts. You may feel free to find it yourself, but I am not going to spoonfeed you like a child.

B.) Fade, the photo you have requested does not exist.
Ah, but it does, and its sad effects can be seen here:
http://www.geocities.com/potvid/exhume.txt
Donat, p. 263

EDIT: I should like to add that I expended considerable effort and time putting together this body of evidence which exists as a whole to demonstrate a single consistent thesis: that Treblinka, as part of the Aktion Reinhardt programme, was a mass extermination camp for Jews and other undesireables. To have a shirker and his cheerleader spend 20 posts belabouring a point whose essentiality to the greater argument is auxiliary at best despite the fact that I've already made very plain my reasons for upholding that photo for what it is in two separate posts, is not only childish and disrespectful, but annoying. It's tiring enough having to waste my time refuting Holocaust denial, which is much like having to explain to your 5 year-old son why the moon isn't made of cheese even though "nuh uh, Eliot in grade two's dad said it was," but to have to furthermore deal with ungracious opponents too conceited to even acknowledge the evidence presented, all the while dancing around trivialities like pygmies round a bonfire despite the fact that the thread is about Treblinka and not "such and such a photo of an excavator representing one single piece in a massive mosaic of evidence dealing with the real topic of the thread, Treblinka" (in case anyone had forgotten), is a personal affront.

[Fade the Butcher]

EDIT: About fucking time. Finally.

[Dan Dare]

Sorry Potty, but the photo that you presented two posts above does not satisfy the requirements. It does not show an excavator in the operation of exhuming bodies, and there is nothing that identifies the location as the Totenlager in T II.

We can therefore reasonably conclude that you have been unable to locate such a photograph.

I am taking your protestations about having posted the photograph already as referring to the offerings in post #57 above, to wit:

....A panorama of the mass graves at Treblinka being exhumed by an excavator, seen at left:

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bp04.jpg

Burial pits and the excavator at Treblinka:

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bp01.jpg

If this is the case, please show us how either of these two well-known photographs satisfy the requirements that I stated earlier.

[Trojan]

Sorry Potty, but the photo that you presented two posts above does not satisfy the requirements. It does not show an excavator in the operation of exhuming bodies, and there is nothing that identifies the location as the Totenlager in T II.

We can therefore reasonably conclude that you have been unable to locate such a photograph.

I am taking your protestations about having posted the photograph already as referring to the offerings in post #57 above, to wit:



If this is the case, please show us how either of these two well-known photographs satisfy the requirements that I stated earlier.

It must be nice to play the role of judge and jury in any debate - this is the typical revisionist position. Demand proof to your satisfaction, as the proof gets close, move the goal posts.

[Dan Dare]

This might be an opportune point to review the state of play so far. Attentive readers might recall that quite early on, I posed the following question:

…Depending upon which account you prefer, the physical remains of 800,000 or more Jews still lie within the confines of an area less than a couple of hectares and it would seem to be a relatively simple matter for contemporary forensic science to establish their presence or not.

If an independent scientific effort were able to do that it would probably silence the doubters for ever. But curiously enough the Tribunes of the Standard Account never call for such an investigation. It does beg the question, why not?

So far there have only two attempts at a response from believers in the standard historical account.

Sulla has prissily mewled that the very notion of such an investigation is ‘obscene’, notwithstanding the many precedents, including that of the Polish communist authorities themselves in 1945.

Potty, on the other hand, like an aging tart who resorts to increasingly provocative costumes in a desperate attempt to entice the punters, wheels in more and more arcane ‘evidence’ in an effort to convince us that such an investigation is completely redundant, since (according to Potty) we already know everything there is to know about Treblinka.

In support of this position, we had first the coke episode, a characteristic blunder swiftly followed by a retraction and grovelling apology, next the air photos, which after some additional flailing around were also swiftly disowned, and more recently Kurt Franz’s collection of snaps which are purported to depict Vernichtungslager Treblinka in full operation, despite the awkward fact that no dead bodies, no killing facilties, nor even anybody identifiably Jewish is to be seen.

Each of these having failed to make the case, Potty now casts the net even further afield, and with heightened shrillness invites us to review yet again the Höfle telegram, the Korherr report, the Stroop report and sundry other evidentiary titbits that have already been done to death, ad nauseum, on numerous discussion forums.

A non-partisan observer might wonder why Potty is putting himself through all this unnecessary aggravation, while at the same getting up everyone else’s nose with his strident chest-beating and verbal diarroeha when, as noted earlier, all the necessary physical evidence to silence the skeptics forever supposedly remains in situ, and could easily be made available to the world through the application of standard criminal forensic techniques.

Why is Potty, and why are others of his ilk, so dead-set against the idea that such an investigation should proceed at Treblinka? What are they afraid of?

[Donny the Punk]

Sorry Potty, but the photo that you presented two posts above does not satisfy the requirements. It does not show an excavator in the operation of exhuming bodies, and there is nothing that identifies the location as the Totenlager in T II.

We can therefore reasonably conclude that you have been unable to locate such a photograph.

I am taking your protestations about having posted the photograph already as referring to the offerings in post #57 above, to wit:



If this is the case, please show us how either of these two well-known photographs satisfy the requirements that I stated earlier.
Dan, since you won't quit harping on about asides and hiding from the bulk of the thread, I suppose we shall have to indulge you and shatter your feet of clay.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/Treblinka/appendixd/FigureD8.jpg

In depth commentary: http://www.holocaust-history.org/Treblinka/appendixd/

[Donny the Punk]

This might be an opportune point to review the state of play so far. Attentive readers might recall that quite early on, I posed the following question:



So far there have only two attempts at a response from believers in the standard historical account.

Sulla has prissily mewled that the very notion of such an investigation is ‘obscene’, notwithstanding the many precedents, including that of the Polish communist authorities themselves in 1945.

Potty, on the other hand, like an aging tart who resorts to increasingly provocative costumes in a desperate attempt to entice the punters, wheels in more and more arcane ‘evidence’ in an effort to convince us that such an investigation is completely redundant, since (according to Potty) we already know everything there is to know about Treblinka.

In support of this position, we had first the coke episode, a characteristic blunder swiftly followed by a retraction and grovelling apology, next the air photos, which after some additional flailing around were also swiftly disowned, and more recently Kurt Franz’s collection of snaps which are purported to depict Vernichtungslager Treblinka in full operation, despite the awkward fact that no dead bodies, no killing facilties, nor even anybody identifiably Jewish is to be seen.

Each of these having failed to make the case, Potty now casts the net even further afield, and with heightened shrillness invites us to review yet again the Höfle telegram, the Korherr report, the Stroop report and sundry other evidentiary titbits that have already been done to death, ad nauseum, on numerous discussion forums.

A non-partisan observer might wonder why Potty is putting himself through all this unnecessary aggravation, while at the same getting up everyone else’s nose with his strident chest-beating and verbal diarroeha when, as noted earlier, all the necessary physical evidence to silence the skeptics forever supposedly remains in situ, and could easily be made available to the world through the application of standard criminal forensic techniques.

Why is Potty, and why are others of his ilk, so dead-set against the idea that such an investigation should proceed at Treblinka? What are they afraid of?
Feel free to fund an expedition, Dan. I'd be glad to spend a month in Poland. :p Until then,you've offered no compelling reasons why anyone else should spend their money proving what they already know to a gaggle of internet Nazis. Let's get with the programme viz. the rest of the thread, people are beginning to see right through you.

[A. Radek]

No-one is disputing the existence of a quarry in the Arbeitslager known as Treblinka I in the officially approved account, but even Arad concedes that the prisoners there were Poles not Jews.

Sources for this?

Dan, since you won't quit harping on about asides and hiding from the bulk of the thread,

well, Dan's common tactic is to get you to spend large amounts of time responding to his innuendo and BS 'questions'. Same with 'Basil'.

Excavators at several of these camps are testified to by Germans and Poles themselves, in numerous accounts. The Nazis spent quite a bit of time cremating the bodies at Treblinka, as well as crushing the bones and sifitng the ash through screens to cover up their murders, several months in fact. It is up to Dan to prove all the witnesses are liars, pictures or not, so if he wishes to divert the topic to innuendo, don't waste time on that; he has yet to offer any concrete proof otherwise.

Why excavators at the other sites, which had no quarries?

[A. Radek]

Feel free to fund an expedition, Dan. I'd be glad to spend a month in Poland. :p Until then,you've offered no compelling reasons why anyone else should spend their money proving what they already know to a gaggle of internet Nazis. Let's get with the programme viz. the rest of the thread, people are beginning to see right through you.

Yep. We'd all like to see Dan's version of the 'evidence' refuting anything. Surely Mattogno has something lying around his garage that will help Dan out here. Dan has his PDF's from VHO.:rofl:

[Dan Dare]

Dan, since you won't quit harping on about asides and hiding from the bulk of the thread, I suppose we shall have to indulge you and shatter your feet of clay.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/Treblinka/appendixd/FigureD8.jpg

In depth commentary: http://www.holocaust-history.org/Treblinka/appendixd/

I'm quite familiar with this exercise in Creative Supposition. Surprised it took you so long to dredge it up, are your researchers taking the weekend off?

Tell me in your own words what it is about these pictures that definitively places the activity in the Totenlager at T II.

Tell me also what it is that proves that these machines are in the process of digging mass graves, and not doing what excavators commonly do viz. excavating sand and gravel.

I'm assuming that the absence of any bodies means that you are will now be finally abandoning the claims for photographic evidence of excavators involved in exhumations.

[Dan Dare]

Sources for this?

...

Uh-oh now we're in the soup, they've wheeled up the heavy artillery.:D

[Donny the Punk]

I'm quite familiar with this exercise in Creative Supposition. Surprised it took you so long to dredge it up, are your researchers taking the weekend off?
It may amaze you, but I don't spend my life obsessing over every shred of Holocaust evidence on the internet and in books. I perform this more as a civic duty, when it's required, like flood relief or feeding the homeless. :p

Tell me in your own words what it is about these pictures that definitively places the activity in the Totenlager at T II.

Tell me also what it is that proves that these machines are in the process of digging mass graves, and not doing what excavators commonly do viz. excavating sand and gravel.
Amusing, first you want Sulla to summarise my posts for me, and now you want me to summarise holocaut-history.org's. Do you have a reading comprehension problem, Dan? Do you need to be held by the hand like an infant and walked through every sentence step by step? You're a big girl now, Dan, we trust you to be able to understand the historical discussion of grown-ups. Give it a try and impress us all.

I'm assuming that the absence of any bodies means that you are will now be finally abandoning the claims for photographic evidence of excavators involved in exhumations.
I'm assuming that the absence of any posts of substance means that you will now be finally abandoning whatever claims you've tried to make in this thread. :p

[Dan Dare]

It may amaze you, but I don't spend my life obsessing over every shred of Holocaust evidence on the internet and in books. I perform this more as a civic duty, when it's required, like flood relief or feeding the homeless. :p

Amusing, first you want Sulla to summarise my posts for me, and now you want me to summarise holocaut-history.org's. Do you have a reading comprehension problem, Dan? Do you need to be held by the hand like an infant and walked through every sentence step by step? You're a big girl now, Dan, we trust you to be able to understand the historical discussion of grown-ups. Give it a try and impress us all.

I'm assuming that the absence of any posts of substance means that you will now be finally abandoning whatever claims you've tried to make in this thread. :p

May as well admit it Potty, your best shot has turned out to be a damp squib.

May as well drop a note to Yad Vashem telling them you're ready to sign up for a digging holiday. See if Sulla and Oberon want to tag along.

[Donny the Punk]

May as well admit it Potty, your best shot has turned out to be a damp squib.
May as well admit it Danny, you haven't even lifted your cowed head to look at my best shot. :p

May as well drop a note to Yad Vashem telling them you're ready to sign up for a digging holiday. See if Sulla and Oberon want to tag along.
I'd like that. Like I said, I have no objections so long as you and your Nazi pals bankroll it.

[Basil Fawlty]

In view of all the Arad adulation that is going on here, I wonder if one of his fan club would care to explain why in his summary (pp. 354-5) of the November 15 1942 report on Treblinka does he insist on talking about gas chambers when the report is actually talking about steam chambers which are described in quite elaborate technical detail in the report?

This really is the stuff of holoconology.

[Donny the Punk]

In view of all the Arad adulation that is going on here, I wonder if one of his fan club would care to explain why in his summary (pp. 354-5) of the November 15 1942 report on Treblinka does he insist on talking about gas chambers when the report is actually talking about steam chambers which are described in quite elaborate technical detail in the report?

This really is the stuff of holoconology.
Sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about, and I doubt anyone else will. Perhaps the summary and report would help?

[Basil Fawlty]

Sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about, and I doubt anyone else will. Perhaps the summary and report would help?I would have thought an expert like you would have a copy of Arad? I also presume you know what Report I am referring to? A Partisan report called "The Destruction of Jewish Warsaw" which contains a description of Treblinka in the section entitled "Treblinka - The Monument of Eternal Shame to the German People." Therein is a detailed description of the steam chambers of Treblinka. Nuremberg (IMT) also incorporates the steam chamber story http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/12-14-45.htm

[Basil Fawlty]

Mattogno and Graf include the full text http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/3.html
Find: steam

[A. Radek]

Uh-oh now we're in the soup, they've wheeled up the heavy artillery.:D

Just simple questions are all that are required here, Dan ...

Are you trying to say those excavators shown inside the camp are there because that yard is merely a sand and gravel pit?

[Donny the Punk]

I would have thought an expert like you would have a copy of Arad? I also presume you know what Report I am referring to? A Partisan report called "The Destruction of Jewish Warsaw" which contains a description of Treblinka in the section entitled "Treblinka - The Monument of Eternal Shame to the German People." Therein is a detailed description of the steam chambers of Treblinka. Nuremberg (IMT) also incorporates the steam chamber story http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/12-14-45.htm
I have no idea why you lot think that I make my bed on a matress of Holocaust books when I've more than conceded my casual and amateur interest in the field. :p That I have so much more to say than deniers is because the truth is so much more elaborate than bad fiction, and because simulation of a lie can only persist so long before it becomes an encumbrance too heavy to bear any longer.

I'll have a look and respond at my leisure. :)

[Basil Fawlty]

I have no idea why you lot think that I make my bed on a matress of Holocaust books when I've more than conceded my casual and amateur interest in the field. :p That I have so much more to say than deniers is because the truth is so much more elaborate than bad fiction, and because simulation of a lie can only persist so long before it becomes an encumbrance too heavy to bear any longer.You should send that poignant fragment to Arad.
I'll have a look and respond at my leisure. :)Cheerio!

[A. Radek]

Dont' worry about it. 'Basil' is merely being disingenious here; Arad is summarizing many different reports form the underground , and state many are partially incorrect. He refers to the constructions as gas chambers in his summary because he knows what the partisans at the time didn't know. The IMT he cites is also just discussing the Partisan reports, not claiming steam was the actual method of killing. Arad doesn't cite these as the primary evidence, he merely comapres them to what is known and can be verified, and isn't shy about pointing out where they were false, or are from eyewitnesses that are not exact in every detail.

Typical innuendo as usual. You're not missing anything here. It's really simple enough, folks. Their entire argument comes from the small body of Denier tabloids published by a handful of Nazis and their sympathizers. They have no real solid evidence refuting the holocaust or the 'establishment' view; they rely almost totally on minor inconsistencies from a tiny handful of eyewitnesses.

[Fade the Butcher]

Potyondi was making an offensive drive until the turnover at #127 (http://www.thephora.net/forum/showpost.php?p=45478&postcount=127).

[Sulla the Dictator]

I'm quite familiar with this exercise in Creative Supposition. Surprised it took you so long to dredge it up, are your researchers taking the weekend off?


Now now Dan. I understand your previous simpering. It was a large post, and you couldn't possibly respond to its content. So I could see why you hemmed and hawed as you slowly backed out the door. But don't STOP in your tracks if you're not going to PROVIDE AN ARGUMENT.

Thats simply ridiculous.

Dan Dare has not made one STATEMENT in this thread related to a factual matter of the Holocaust.

He's had plenty of questions. He's made tons of innuendo. He's had a lot of 'feelings and doubts'.


Tell me also what it is that proves that these machines are in the process of digging mass graves, and not doing what excavators commonly do viz. excavating sand and gravel.


http://www.holocaust-history.org/Treblinka/appendixd/FigureD4.jpg

Thats a quarry alright.


I'm assuming that the absence of any bodies means that you are will now be finally abandoning the claims for photographic evidence of excavators involved in exhumations.

These excavators are involved in exhumations, Dan. You've been shown them.

[Sulla the Dictator]

In view of all the Arad adulation that is going on here, I wonder if one of his fan club would care to explain why in his summary (pp. 354-5) of the November 15 1942 report on Treblinka does he insist on talking about gas chambers when the report is actually talking about steam chambers which are described in quite elaborate technical detail in the report?


Gallant to ride to the damsel's rescue, but a bit late, Basil. :p

[Sulla the Dictator]

Mattogno and Graf include the full text http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/3.html
Find: steam


Interesting. So when you were citing a page number, what you really meant was you knew of a website?

[Basil Fawlty]

This is what Arad actually says:

Yitazak Arad Belzec, Sobibor Treblinka: The Operation Reinhard Death Camps Indiana University Press: Bloomington, 1987 (1999 PB): 354-355
p. 354

In the document dated November 15, 1942, a long detailed descriptionis given of the Treblinka camp. This document was prepared in the Warsaw ghetto as an appendix to another report, entitled "The Destruction of Jewish Warsaw," and which was transmitted via the Delegatura to London on January 6, 1943. The appendix on Treblinka was entitled "Treblinka - The Monument of Eternal Shame to the German People." In this document there is a description of the construction of the Treblinka extermination camp, its location, its size, and a detailed plan, including a sketch of the (p. 355) area This report includes a description of the dozens of new gas chambers and other structures in the camp. With regard to the camp staff, it states that in addition to the Germans and Ukrainians there are also Jews, whom the document calls "Jewish auxiliaries," who are employed at auxiliary works, in sorting the clothes of the murdered and removing the corpses from the gas chambers and burying them. The document mentions the extremely difficult conditions under which the prisoners are kept, the daily killings among these Jews, and that their life expectancy in this camp was no more than two weeks. In the description of the way the transports were treated, there is reference to the deceptive plays of the Germans and a description of the extermination process from the moment the people disembarked on the platform-the way they were tortured-until they were led into the gas chambers, as well as the system of burying the corpses. In conclusion, it stated that by then two million Jews had been murdered in Treblinka-the majority of Polish Jewry. The report concludes by asking why the new gas chambers were built, as the majority of Polish Jewry had already been killed, and states that, according to one eyewitness, the Germans had already killed a group of Poles in the middle of August.
This report is the first in which there is a comprehensive description of the Treblinka extermination camp. The facts are, for the most part, correct.
Arad is falsifying primary sources by claiming the document describes gas chambers when it is describing steam chambers.

But then what's new, Poliakov, Gilbert, Arad; they're all at it.

[Basil Fawlty]

Dont' worry about it. 'Basil' is merely being disingenious here; Arad is summarizing No, he's falsifying. The IMT he cites is also just discussing the Partisan reports, not claiming steam was the actual method of killing.No, its being entered in evidence
I offer in evidence Document 3311-PS, Exhibit USA-293. This is an official Polish Government Commission report on the investigation of German crimes in Poland. The document describes the concentration camp at Treblinka; and from Page 1, Paragraph 3 and 4, I read as follows:
"In March 1942 the Germans began to erect another camp, Treblinka B. in the neighborhood of Treblinka A, intended to become a place of torment for Jews.
"The erection of this camp was closely connected with the German plans aimed at a complete destruction of the Jewish population in Poland, which necessitated the creation of a machinery by means of which the Polish Jews could be killed in large numbers. Late in April 1942 erection was completed of the first chambers in which these general massacres were to be performed by means of steam. Somewhat later the erection of the real death building, which contains 10 death chambers, was finished. It was opened for wholesale murders early in autumn 1942."

Oberon, you're a desperate fool, making a liar of yourself to cover for another liar.

[A. Radek]

This is what Arad actually says:

Yitazak Arad Belzec, Sobibor Treblinka: The Operation Reinhard Death Camps Indiana University Press: Bloomington, 1987 (1999 PB): 354-355
Arad is falsifying primary sources by claiming the document describes gas chambers when it is describing steam chambers.

But then what's new, Poliakov, Gilbert, Arad; they're all at it.


Wrong. Arad isn't quoting that report. Not that you know the difference. He's summarizing it, as I said. You have nothing here, except of course that 'Greater Truth' of yours. Typical, build up a non-existent 'assertion' of your own making, claim then to knock it down, with the usual selective quoting. This is as weak as your 'defense' of Hannover and Renk.

The only liars and falsifiers here are you and Dan.

[A. Radek]

No, he's falsifying. No, its being entered in evidence

Oberon, you're a desperate fool, making a liar of yourself to cover for another liar.

Only two posts, and the fake veneer of intellect is reduced to namecalling and lying.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Yes, your creative interpretation is that bad, Basil. Stick to reading comics, kid.

Anybody interested in the paragraph that follows ole 'Basils' ridiculous interpretation?

[Basil Fawlty]

Once again for the reading impaired Oberon.

Arad: In the document dated November 15, 1942 . . . This report includes a description of the dozens of new gas chambersNo, it describes steam chambers.

He's falsifying primary sources.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Once again for the reading impaired Oberon.

No, it describes steam chambers.

He's falsifying primary sources.

The proximate stimulus for the Allied resolution was undoubtedly Jan Karski's mission: Karski saw Anthony Eden and Roosevelt late in 1942 and gave what he believed to be an eyewitness accouont of Belzec (which Tom Wood has shown was actually a feeder camp: Karski described people
being loaded onto trains, and surmised that they were being killed by fumes
from quicklime as the trains moved around). Karski also thought that Jews
were being suffocated by steam, while other reports mentioned electrocution.


Similarly:

One eyewitness report claimed that Auschwitz and Birkenau were two entirely separate camps, the latter near Czestochowa, and that Jews in concentration camps had to wear yellow uniforms.

Eyewitnesses from a distance, ie, PARTISANS watching the camp, and people smuggling information out of the country are not the best witnesses. Thankfully, they're not even the MAJORITY of the witnesses available.

Make a declarative statement. Tell us what happened at Treblinka.

[A. Radek]

Again, Basil still can't argue the point , and instead makes loony claims.

As an example of Denier 'logic', we can use Japanese civilian eyewitnesses of the atomic bomb blasts that destroyed Horoshima and Nagasaki. How many of them do you suppose described it as an atomic weapon going off? None did, therefore, the Horoshima and Nagasaki were faked and falsified.:rofl: :rofl:

He claims falsifying of 'primary sources', and even in his own selectively edited 'quote' it's obvious Arad is not citing this report verbatim, or even as a primary source, and is summarizing it's contents. Basil is truly desperate here.

[Basil Fawlty]

We are in the process of dumping Arad for falsification of primary sources.




btw, the Partisans give very detailed descriptions of the steaming apparatus and its operation.

[A. Radek]

The proximate stimulus for the Allied resolution was undoubtedly Jan Karski's mission: Karski saw Anthony Eden and Roosevelt late in 1942 and gave what he believed to be an eyewitness accouont of Belzec (which Tom Wood has shown was actually a feeder camp: Karski described people
being loaded onto trains, and surmised that they were being killed by fumes
from quicklime as the trains moved around). Karski also thought that Jews
were being suffocated by steam, while other reports mentioned electrocution.


Similarly:

One eyewitness report claimed that Auschwitz and Birkenau were two entirely separate camps, the latter near Czestochowa, and that Jews in concentration camps had to wear yellow uniforms.

Eyewitnesses from a distance, ie, PARTISANS watching the camp, and people smuggling information out of the country are not the best witnesses. Thankfully, they're not even the MAJORITY of the witnesses available.

Make a declarative statement. Tell us what happened at Treblinka.

there is no reason for them know exactly what gas was killing those inside the chambers, either. Trying to hinge a 'refutation' on such lame minor inaccuracies is of course par for the course in Denial Land; just as Dan has no coroborating evidence that those excavators are sitting on a 'sand and gravel pit', while there is ample evidence to the fact that they were excavating bodies, not least from German testimony itself.

[A. Radek]

We are in the process of dumping Arad for falsification of primary sources.

Really? Says who, you? We're still waiting for evidence he falsified anythng. You merely claiming he did doesn't hold water.

btw, the Partisans give very detailed descriptions of the steaming apparatus and its operation.

They described the pipes and engines; they had little idea of what the actual kiling agent was. Of course you have nothing but innuendo, yet again.

[Basil Fawlty]

There must be a special medal for you guys, for Outstanding Service to Chutzpah, above and beyond the call of duty. :222:

[Sulla the Dictator]

We are in the process of dumping Arad for falsification of primary sources.


Make a declarative statement about what happened at Treblinka.

[Dan Dare]

....Make a declarative statement. Tell us what happened at Treblinka.

Unlike undiscriminating true believers in the Holy Dogma, the honest answer is that we don't really know but do believe that every effort should be made to establish the truth.

After all we talking about the alleged murder of over 800,000 human beings;881,390 according to Arad's exacting calculations.

Turning for the moment to Potty's latest "find" which Sulla gratefully fresses down as irrefutable proof of Treblinka excavators busy in the act of exhumation (the miraculous absence of any human remains being of no significance), the reality is that this ridiculous farrago of supposition, wild-eyed imaginings, and outright fabrications would have the charlatans who constructed it laughed out of any criminal proceeding.

Consider the following as an indication of the level of 'scholarship' and scientific rigour characteristic of the 'analysis' upon which Potty and Pals are now leaning so heavily:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/Treblinka/appendixd/FigureD2.jpg


In this photogaph, according to our expert commentator, it possible to clearly discern:

"... members of the Jewish work force. Three of them can be seen at the right edge of the photograph. One is standing, two appear to be bent over. Theirs is the task of sieving for bones and of crushing the remnants."

Yes, yellow stars are clearly visible, proving beyond a shadow of any reasonable doubt that these smudgy figures are not Polish prisoners, civilian workers, or even Germans.

The fact they are standing alongside "probable" ash-heaps while bent over operating bone-crushing machinery places the activity definitively in the Totenlager at T II, and thanks to the distinctive pine trees we can definitely conclude that this picture was not taken anywhere else in Poland or Eastern Europe.

See how easy it becomes when you turn the sleuthing over to professionsals?

[Basil Fawlty]

Make a declarative statement about what happened at Treblinka.This is a rather crude attempt to distract attention away from the nothingness of your photo collection and the exposure of Arad as falsifier of primay sources.

[A. Radek]

There must be a special medal for you guys, for Outstanding Service to Chutzpah, above and beyond the call of duty. :222:

Once again, where, in the entire book, does Arad cite the 'steam chamber' report as a primary source, quotes it, and alters the text of it to 'gas chambers'.You do know how to read indexes and footnote numbers, don't you, Basil? I'll be happy to explain it to you, and give the page numbers.

Notes begin on page 407, and end on page 426. The numbers '1, 2, 3,' etc. correspond to numbers in the text. The note are listed by chapter, i.e. Chapter One, Chapter Two, etc. Do we need to fax you copies of this, with written instructions?

Once you get a handle on this, we can expect you to admit you're a liar.

[Fade the Butcher]

The proximate stimulus for the Allied resolution was undoubtedly Jan Karski's mission: Karski saw Anthony Eden and Roosevelt late in 1942 and gave what he believed to be an eyewitness accouont of Belzec (which Tom Wood has shown was actually a feeder camp: Karski described people being loaded onto trains, and surmised that they were being killed by fumes from quicklime as the trains moved around). Karski also thought that Jews were being suffocated by steam, while other reports mentioned electrocution.

Ah! I finally get a chance to throw my own two cents into this debate. You mention above that Roosevelt was informed in late 1942 that the Germans were systematically murdering the Jews. You forgot to mention that FDR dismissed such reports as false. :p

"A report came from the Polish government in exile in June 1942 that 750,000 Polish Jews (one-quarter of the total pre-war Jewish population of the country) had been killed. When Roosevelt's old sometime ally from New York politics, Rabbi Stephen Wise, head of the American Jewish Congress, prevailed upon Justice Felix Frankfurter to visit and remonstrate with the President in September 1942, Roosevelt blandly assured him that he thought most of the deportations were for forced labor rather than extermination."

Conrad Black, Franklin Delano Roosevelt: Champion of Freedom (New York: Public Affairs, 2005), p.815

[Basil Fawlty]

Oberon, at least a semblance of dignified silence would have been the better part of valour for you at this stage.

[A. Radek]

So, you can't find a single instance of Arad falsifying anything. I already knew that.

Why do you keep embarassing yourself over and over, time after time on Holocaust threads? You've been handed your ass so many times even the dullest moron would at least bother to actually read up on the subject.

Now again ...

Where, in the entire book, does Arad cite the 'steam chamber' report as a primary source, quotes it, and alters the text of it to 'gas chambers'.You do know how to read indexes and footnote numbers, don't you, Basil? I'll be happy to explain it to you, and give the page numbers.

Notes begin on page 407, and end on page 426. The numbers '1, 2, 3,' etc. correspond to numbers in the text. The note are listed by chapter, i.e. Chapter One, Chapter Two, etc. Do we need to fax you copies of this?

[Fade the Butcher]

Here is a question for all you Holocaustians. Why weren't the railways to Auschwitz bombed? Why burn German cities to the ground from the sky, but leave Auschwitz alone? Rabbi Wise and others had been telling FDR for years that millions of Jews were being murdered there. Ignorance is thus no excuse. Why did FDR personally veto a mission to bomb Auschwitz and the railways leading there, as Assistant Secretary of War McCloy pointed admitted years later? Was FDR a Holocaust denier? A Nazi sympathizer in the Oval Office? :p

Needless to say, I have enormous difficulty believing that FDR would let millions of Jews die if he had the power to alleviate their suffering. This question has been nagging at me for years and I have never seen it properly answered. It makes no sense. Either FDR wanted the Jews to die or he didn't believe they were being gassed en masse there. If the latter is the case (which seems more probable), then why didn't FDR believe the Holocaust advocates around him that were making so much noise?

[Atlas]

Here is a question for all you Holocaustians. Why weren't the railways to Auschwitz bombed? Why burn German cities to the ground from the sky, but leave the Auschwitz alone? Rabbi Wise and others had been telling FDR for years that millions of Jews were being murdered there.


-Bombing the railways was useless, with the amount of prisoner they had, it would just have taken them some days - not even a week - to rebuild them.
-Churchill was kind of spiteful after London and Coventry bombing and he wanted to kill civilians, he clearly said that, he wanted to makes the germans pay.
-What most WP people call "ZOG" today had not as much influence as today in the USA and UK, the murder of Jews to that time was not a priority for them. The priority was to protect their land from a german attack/invasion.

[Fade the Butcher]

-Bombing the railways was useless, with the amount of prisoner they had, it would just have taken them some days - not even a week - to rebuild them.

If bombing railways was so useless, then why were other railways bombed by the USAF all across Europe, including those that were in the vicinity of Auschwitz?

-What most WP people call "ZOG" today had not as much influence as today in the USA and UK, the murder of Jews to that time was not a priority for them. The priority was to protect their land from a german attack/invasion.

I'm not stupid enough to believe that FDR was controlled by Morgenthau, Frankfurter, Wise, Cohen, ZOG etc. No one who knows anything about FDR's life believes that. What I can't figure out though is why FDR personally vetoed a proposed mission to bomb the railways leading to Auschwitz. This is inexplicable to me. FDR had long been one of the most vocal critics of Nazism and their abuses of the Jews since the early 1930s. Yet here FDR had an obvious opportunity to alleviate Jewish suffering, but he personally deep sixed the operation (why this one?). He did this in spite of the fact that the AJC, Wise, Morgenthau, and virtually every Jew around him was screaming at the top of their lungs and pleading with him to do so.

[A. Radek]

Turning for the moment to Potty's latest "find" which Sulla gratefully fresses down as irrefutable proof of Treblinka excavators busy in the act of exhumation (the miraculous absence of any human remains being of no significance), the reality is that this ridiculous farrago of supposition, wild-eyed imaginings, and outright fabrications would have the charlatans who constructed it laughed out of any criminal proceeding.

nothing 'miraculous' about it; it's all covered in corroborating testimony and eyewitness reports, not only at Treblinka but the other camps as well. Your wishful thinking and innuendo otherwise doesn't mean anything. You've yet to provide any conclusive evidence to the contrary.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Ah! I finally get a chance to throw my own two cents into this debate. You mention above that Roosevelt was informed in late 1942 that the Germans were systematically murdering the Jews. You forgot to mention that FDR dismissed such reports as false. :p

"A report came from the Polish government in exile in June 1942 that 750,000 Polish Jews (one-quarter of the total pre-war Jewish population of the country) had been killed. When Roosevelt's old sometime ally from New York politics, Rabbi Stephen Wise, head of the American Jewish Congress, prevailed upon Justice Felix Frankfurter to visit and remonstrate with the President in September 1942, Roosevelt blandly assured him that he thought most of the deportations were for forced labor rather than extermination."

Conrad Black, Franklin Delano Roosevelt: Champion of Freedom (New York: Public Affairs, 2005), p.815


Well, I didn't mention it because it was irrelevant to the canard of 'steam chambers'. :p

[Sulla the Dictator]

We are in the process of dumping Arad for falsification of primary sources.


Right, you're trying to change the subject. Congrats. But no one is interested.

Oberon is being too polite.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Yes, yellow stars are clearly visible, proving beyond a shadow of any reasonable doubt that these smudgy figures are not Polish prisoners, civilian workers, or even Germans.


No, the tons of evidence Potyondi has already provided for you ALONG WITH those pictures prove beyond a shadow of a doubt there was slaughter going on at Treblinka.

I'll dismiss the rest of your post as irrelevant, according to the protocol of convenience you've established, since you didn't address the picture *I* posted.

[A. Radek]

Here is a question for all you Holocaustians. Why weren't the railways to Auschwitz bombed? Why burn German cities to the ground from the sky, but leave Auschwitz alone? Rabbi Wise and others had been telling FDR for years that millions of Jews were being murdered there. Ignorance is thus no excuse. Why did FDR personally veto a mission to bomb Auschwitz and the railways leading there, as Assistant Secretary of War McCloy pointed admitted years later? Was FDR a Holocaust denier? A Nazi sympathizer in the Oval Office?

What's your point here? Everybody knows Roosevelt had no interest in rescueing Jews from the Nazis? We already know that; after all, he turned away shiploads of refugees from American ports years before the war even started.

On the other hand, he approved bombing missions that were useless in order to score points with partisan groups in countries he hoped to use as allies after the war, in Hungary and elsewhere. In 1944 he had the capacity to bomb some of the camps from Italy, but most Jews were already dead, and the bombings were not the pinpoint accurate miracles claimed at the time, so he could have easily killed them anyway by doing so. The war was nearly over, anyway.

Jews had no state in Europe or anywhere else at the time, nor were they a significant population in any particular state, so their plight were politically meaningless to him or the U.S. Truman did little to assist the newly formed Israel from Arab invasions, neither did Britain, in fact the British had an arms embargo on Jews at the time, the Jewish guerilla bands relied on smuggling in arms from Czechoslavakia, until it was already a given they weren't going to be wiped out by the Arab invasions.

[Dan Dare]

...I'll dismiss the rest of your post as irrelevant, according to the protocol of convenience you've established, since you didn't address the picture *I* posted.

Sorry to have to inconvenience you but I seem to have overlooked your vital item of evidence, please point it out again.

I'm assuming it is going to assist us in definitely placing the excavators in the Totenlager, and is going to conclusively demonstrate exhumation operations in progress.

I'm sure you wouldn't want to waste everyone's time and tax their patience again with yet more unsubstantiated ephemera.

And finally are you in complete accord with the expert witnesses from the Holocaust History project that Potty has put forward above and who have, as mentioned in my earlier post, positively identified the several background figures in the photo that I provided as Jews operating bone-crushing machinery? A simple yes or no will suffice.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Sorry to have to inconvenience you but I seem to have overlooked your vital item of evidence, please point it out again.


I bet you have. Its important for you to 'overlook', 'misplace', and outright ignore posts in order to continue in this thread.

You claimed that these excavators purpose was to work in the quarry. Thats all you would cede. Stop being lazy, scroll back and look at the picture I posted.

Then tell us thats a quarry its working in. If you don't come to that laughable conclusion, please tell us what its doing. Make a declarative statement about the events at Treblinka.

[A. Radek]

Well, Dan has trouble answering without running to some Mattogno tabloid to see if his 'response' is listed; if not, he and Basil both have to ad lib one, or spend 5 or 6 pages avoiding direct answers and hoping everybody has forgotten they've even been asked simple questions, like was he saying that large area inside the the camp itself where the excavators are shown in the bird's eye photo a sand and gravel pit. Anybody with Dan's vast knowledge would be able to simply answer yes or no to any of this, but, as we can see, they've both been cornered and are pulling nonsense out of their asses now, and this will continue for yet more pages, as they try to dreg up diversions and the usual feeble efforts at 'witty' retorts.

Basil, of course, has attempted the usual sleazy smear of a real scholar by some ridiculous spinning of a summary by selective quoting, and can't back it up when asked for simple evidence, as usual.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Dan also seems to have a problem explaining how the Germans confuse one group of dead bodies for another, when the latter isn't supposed to be dead, according to him.

[Basil Fawlty]

Right, you're trying to change the subject. Congrats. But no one is interested.Its all too easy to see why you want to avoid this topic. Unlike Oberon you do, at least, have a modicum of good sense.

Arad has been held up as the authoritative source on this by you guys. Now we find that he misrepresents primary sources, just like Poliakov, Gilbert et al. So farewell Arad.

[A. Radek]

Aw, now Basil has resorted to lying again, after refusing to answer a simple question. He now actually thinks he claim he 'proved' something. Truly hilarious. This is typical of Deniers, particularly Basil, who simply can't stand posting outside of echo chambers; too many unpleasant facts keep popping up. He should stick to the Nazi boards, where he has more than enough of a gullible audience to let him pretend he's not mentally and morally retarded.

[A. Radek]

Now we find that he misrepresents primary sources, just like Poliakov, Gilbert et al. So farewell Arad.

Once again, Basil:

Where did Arad misrepresent and falsify anything, much less a primary source?

It's very easy to find this out, Basil. All you need is the quote and page number where he did this. I've given you the page numbers, and explained how citing sources works.

Or is this just your way of admitting you're a liar?

[A. Radek]

Dan also seems to have a problem explaining how the Germans confuse one group of dead bodies for another, when the latter isn't supposed to be dead, according to him.

Well, Dan just hates Jews, and thinks he's clever enough to fool anybody into accepting his heroes at IHR and VHO as 'historians'. I think he wears his sock garters too tight, and it constricts the blood flow to his head.

[Basil Fawlty]

It seems that the holocaust "expert" Oberon does not have a copy of Arad otherwise he would be able to consult the end-notes for the documentary source which Arad is falsifying. :rofl:

[A. Radek]

Obviously you didn't, or you would have named it, including the page number, Basil. you are of course hoping nobody else has a copy and are trying to salvage your falsehood and fool the peanut gallery. The 'source' you claim is 'falsified' is right there above the paragraph you stupidly claim he falsified.

But, you have an even greater problem besides a lack of discernment, and that is not knowing what a 'primary source' is the first place, for all your psuedo-intellectual postering and silliness. Whoever you ran to and asked for help isn't any brighter than you are.:rofl: :rofl: You really should get that high school equivalency passed and take a essay course in college or night school, so you can get an idea of how footnoting and sources are defined and used.

Now, once again, where does Arad cite a quote from that report and alter it? This is your claim, remember; no matter how many silly attempts of yours to save face, I'll keep asking it. Show you have even read the book, Basil, and not some gibberish off VHO's downloads, eh? Be a Hero to your fellow antisemites.

[Basil Fawlty]

I have scanned the pages above which are clearly numbered pp. 354-5, if you had Arad you would have no difficulty following through the notes back to where he gives the source on page 404 where we find

Papers of the Delegatura. Krystyna Marczewska, Wladyslaw Wazniewski, "Treblinka w swietle akt Delegatury Rzadu na Kraj, Biuletyn glownej Komisji Badania Zbrodni Hitlerowskich w Polsce, XIX Warsaw, 1968

Oberon is trying the usual dreary old game of lying big and bold in order to ty and fool what he calls the "peanut gallery" (at the same time showing his contempt for readers with such a description. Alas, he is the only person on the Phora who is taken in by this.

[A. Radek]

IF you did read that page, then you know Arad is not quoting from that text, then. In fact, the only reference to this document is on the pages you mentioned, and nowhere else in the previous 40 odd chapters does alter any quotes form this document. You are merely trying to spin this into a 'falsification' because you have nothing to refute his book.

Now you can admit you were lying about Arad 'falsifying' a 'primary source'.

[Basil Fawlty]

Once again for the mentally and morally challenged Oberon
This is what Arad has on pp. 354-5
In the document dated November 15, 1942, a long detailed description is given of the Treblinka camp. . . . This report includes a description of the dozens of new gas chambers
But the report Arad is summarising here actually talks about STEAM CHAMBERS not gas chambers. Arad suppresses STEAM and puts in gas. That is the falsification of the primary source.

[A. Radek]

Once again, Basil is lying. Arad describes the construction of Treblinka in chapter 5. The document Basil is referring to is not cited as a source at all. What Basil doesn't want you know about this book is that that the summary of that document he deliberately claims Arad 'falsified' is in chapter 43, titled Reports about the Death Camps in Polish Wartime Publications, and nowhere does Arad quote this document as a source, and change the wording. It's not a primary source in the first place.

This chapter begins on page 349, and Arad goes through and writes summaries of some of those reports in which various camps are mentioned, and states the more gross inaccuracies, not a line by line detailed critique of each one. He had already established what these people were seeing were not 'steam chambers' through a variety of sources, so it would be just stupid to refer to them as such in a shortsummary in one of the last chapters of the book, but such is the desperation and moral bankruptcy of the Denial crackpots of the world. Arad is not lying, they were gas chambers. Basil has nothing to refute that, so resorts to the usual cretinous tactic of defaming the author, as well as the usual ad hominem on somebody who actually has the book and know's he is a bald faced liar.

I particularly enjoy the ludicrous claim Arad is 'supressing' a document he clearly named and listed:

In the document dated November 15, 1942, a long detailed description is given of the Treblinka camp. This document was prepared in the Warsaw ghetto as an appendix to another report, entitled 'The Destruction Of Jewish Warsaw', and which was transmitted via the Delegatura tp London on January 6, 1943. The appendix on Treblinka was entitled 'Treblinka-The Monument of Eternal Shame to the German People'. - page 354.

Basil is trying to distort the context as a form of lying. When does suppression involve listing the document itself so that anybody can look it up and verify it?

[A. Radek]

The second paragraph of the same summary:

This report is the first in which there is a comprehensive description of the Treblinka extermination camp. The facts are, for the most part, correct.Their source is escapees from the camp who reached the Warsaw ghetto and who gave testimony for the Ringelblum Archive and to Jewish Underground groups in the Warsaw ghetto. This report is based therefore on the descriptions of eyewitnesses who had seen for themselves the process of extermination, who had lived in the camp for days or weeks as prisoners, who had been employed at various jobs, and who had succeeded in escaping. The facts that they related on what they had seen were accurate, but the reference to two million Jews who had been murdered was incorrect. In the period to which the report refers, one-fourth to one-third of the number cited in the report had been murdered. Also the detail about the murder of a group of Poles in Treblinka was incorrect.-page 354.

This along with the paragraph already cited by Basil is all there is on this report. It is merely used to corroborate other evidence, not as a 'primary source', nor is even quoted at all in the previous 42 chapters. Arad refers to six gas chambers in the chapter on the construction of Treblinka, to be conservative for his calculations. He cites sources that refer to 10, and at one point oin time the 3 original chambers are still operating when the 10 new ones are beginning operations. Nowhere does Arad claim there are 'dozens of gas chambers'. Basil obviously never read the book.

[A. Radek]

While Basil runs off for a few hours and checks the notes for chapter 5, after all there are around 11 of them, so this will take time, and he also has to find somebody who has actually read chapter 5 to tell him how to respond, we can spend 6 or 7 pages discussing the blatantly obvious question whether 'steam is a gas or not.' :D

[Sulla the Dictator]

(Cough)

Of course. Forgeries. Conspiracies. Mistranslations. Accusations like that are always the crutch that I constantly see being brought out in order to refute the historical consensus on the subject. Yet when they are thrown around so often, again and again, one has to question their credibility, especially in light of other sources that confirm the matter. On whose authority do we have this?

--Fade the Butcher

I found this gem in a little project I'm working on. It should be complete in the next few days. :p

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=161828&highlight=British

[cerberus]

Sulla , does this mean that , the black crow is actually a white crow ??:D

[Thomas777]

IF you did read that page, then you know Arad is not quoting from that text, then. In fact, the only reference to this document is on the pages you mentioned, and nowhere else in the previous 40 odd chapters does alter any quotes form this document. You are merely trying to spin this into a 'falsification' because you have nothing to refute his book.

Now you can admit you were lying about Arad 'falsifying' a 'primary source'.

I think that you are missing the point.

The claims made by Holocaust proponents are sensational and incredible...and one must suspend disbelief and accept the existence of shadowy, evil conspiracies to believe them.

Suggesting that world leaders, generals, industrialists held secret meetings and formulated plans to murder every Jewish person in the world with an astronomically costly and bizarre array of death factories and killing apparatus is simply not credible...anymore than it is credible to suggest that the Illuminati, the Freemasons, and a world-Jewish cabal conspire to oppress the global population and manipulate the acts of nations.

Serious people do not believe these sorts of things...unless they have a political agenda.

[Donny the Punk]

I think that you are missing the point.

The claims made by Holocaust proponents are sensational and incredible...and one must suspend disbelief and accept the existence of shadowy, evil conspiracies to believe them.

Suggesting that world leaders, generals, industrialists held secret meetings and formulated plans to murder every Jewish person in the world with an astronomically costly and bizarre array of death factories and killing apparatus is simply not credible...anymore than it is credible to suggest that the Illuminati, the Freemasons, and a world-Jewish cabal conspire to oppress the global population and manipulate the acts of nations.

Serious people do not believe these sorts of things...unless they have a political agenda.
Tell us what happened at Auschwitz and Treblinka, then.

[Thomas777]

Tell us what happened at Auschwitz and Treblinka, then.

The Third Reich was a regime that brutalized people that it perceived as its enemies...people like Jews, Russians, Poles, and assorted political dissidents who ran afoul of the regime.

The Germans erected concentration camps in which the Third Reich's "enemies" were incarcerated, brutalized, and often arbitrarily killed.

Unfortunately, many nations at war in the 20th century brutalized civillians in this way (or in the case of the USSR, such methods were employed as a terror tactic to quell dissent within the empire)...the fact that the Germans brutalized civillians and murdered non-combatants regularly is not proof positive of a world wide murder conspiracy against Jews.

[Donny the Punk]

The Third Reich was a regime that brutalized people that it perceived as its enemies...people like Jews, Russians, Poles, and assorted political dissidents who ran afoul of the regime.

The Germans erected concentration camps in which the Third Reich's "enemies" were incarcerated, brutalized, and often arbitrarily killed.

Unfortunately, many nations at war in the 20th century brutalized civillians in this way (or in the case of the USSR, such methods were employed as a terror tactic to quell dissent within the empire)...the fact that the Germans brutalized civillians and murdered non-combatants regularly is not proof positive of a world wide murder conspiracy against Jews.
It was never a world-wide conspiracy, just a Nazi one. However, perhaps you can clairfy something for me. Ignoring all other estimates, we know for a fact that 300,000 Jews were sent to Treblinka for what Jurgen Stroop called "destruction". Now, if these were incarceration camps, can you explain to me how 300,000 Jews were supposed to be 'incarcerated' in a camp of Treblinka's dimensions? Can you furthermore explain to me how a dozen SS guards and a hundred or so Ukrainian workers 'arbitrarily' killed 300,000 Jews in the space of a year? Finally, can you please tell me why the workers at Treblinka, most notably Franz Suchomel, would admit that they were mass murdering Jews with gas at the rate of hundreds and thousands a day when it was 'arbitrary' killing to which we are supposed to ascribe all those human remains discovered by the Polish Central Commission?

[Thomas777]

It was never a world-wide conspiracy, just a Nazi one.
So German political, military, and business leaders held a meeting in which a conspiracy was hatched to devote massive resources towards murdering every Jewish person on Earth?

Let me ask you something...do you believe that Lt. Calley killed civillians at My Lai in Vietnam at the behest of a conspiracy to kill every Vietnamese person on Earth hatched by President Johnson, Robert MacNamara, William Westmoreland, and Howard Hughes?

However, perhaps you can clairfy something for me. Ignoring all other estimates, we know for a fact that 300,000 Jews were sent to Treblinka for what Jurgen Stroop called "destruction".
Its a little peculiar that Jurgen Stoop would implicate himself by drafting documents evincing his intent to kill hundreds of thousands of people now isn't it? Especially considering that this conspiracy which you believe in is purported to be an ultra-secret directive concocted by European power brokers.

Now, if these were incarceration camps, can you explain to me how 300,000 Jews were supposed to be 'incarcerated' in a camp of Treblinka's dimensions?

I have seen no evidence to the effect that 300,000 people were incarcerated at Treblinka.

Can you furthermore explain to me how a dozen SS guards and a hundred or so Ukrainian workers 'arbitrarily' killed 300,000 Jews in the space of a year?
I don't believe that occurred...anymore than I believe in UFOs, the Illuminati, Bigfoot, or the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Finally, can you please tell me why the workers at Treblinka, most notably Franz Suchomel, would admit that they were mass murdering Jews with gas at the rate of hundreds and thousands a day when it was 'arbitrary' killing to which we are supposed to ascribe all those human remains discovered by the Polish Central Commission?
I am not a chemist, but I doubt if it is possible to execute thousands of people a day with poison gas. I also do not find it credible that when Germany was at war with the UK, the USA, and the USSR and facing near-imminent destruction, the top priority of the German leadership was to kill Jewish civillians in some bizarre quasi-factory apparatus.

[SteamshipTime]

Tell us what happened at Auschwitz and Treblinka, then.

Jews were imprisoned in concentration camps as slave labor. Their clothing and effects were periodically deloused. They were brutally treated. Many starved or died of typhoid and other communicable diseases. Doubtless some, perhaps many, guards engaged in beatings or other gratuitous cruelties.

The "homicidal" gas chambers were said to have been dynamited or destroyed, with commentators coyly noting that the delousing chambers were left intact. Thus, physical evidence of facilities capable of effectively poisoning large groups of people with no danger to the operators does not exist. There are no photos of camp inmates being gassed. There is only eyewitness testimony from camp survivors.

I don't delve into the topic in any depth because I don't feel particularly inclined to spend my time on it. On its face though, there are some illogical aspects to the Holocaust story. For example, why expend so many resources to set up such a complicated infrastructure to kill people? Also, other Holocaust claims--soap, lampshades, "survivors," etc.--have been exposed as fraudulent. The claims of gas chambers should not be immune to critical inquiry.

The Holocaust is neither the first nor last time protagonists in a conflict have made fantastic claims of cruelty against their enemies. (Recall Kuwaiti babies being tossed from incubators and bayoneted, Saddam having people fed feet first into industrial shredders.) The Holocaust is unique though in that a number of governments criminally proscribe any dispute of its claims. This alone should provoke a degree of skepticism.

[Donny the Punk]

Amusing. :p Neither of you "have seen evidence" or "feel particularly inclined to spend... time on it" and yet you're chomping at the bit to deny the event. I refer you to the evidence already in this thread (post #81). When you address what's been written there, we can perhaps move on to the forthcoming post I'm draughting for later this week.

[Thomas777]

Amusing. :p Neither of you "have seen evidence" or "feel particularly inclined to spend... time on it" and yet you're chomping at the bit to deny the event.
I have seen evidence that the German armed forces herded civillians into concentration camps and killed many of those unfortunate people. I have never seen evidence of a mass conspiracy to exterminate all Jewish people. Much of this "evidence" of which you speak of is little more than episodic, surrealist hyperbole spilt from the pens of shills like Elie Wiesel. A man whose claims have about as much credibility as the alien abduction scenarios described by Whitley Streiber.

I refer you to the evidence already in this thread (post #81). When you address what's been written there, we can perhaps move on to the forthcoming post I'm draughting for later this week.
You posted a photocopy of a non-authenticated document which states that at the Treblinka camp, dead inmates were not adequately buried...this is not proof positive of a mass murder conspiracy.

[SteamshipTime]

Amusing. :p Neither of you "have seen evidence" or "feel particularly inclined to spend... time on it" and yet you're chomping at the bit to deny the event. I refer you to the evidence already in this thread (post #81). When you address what's been written there, we can perhaps move on to the forthcoming post I'm draughting for later this week.

Based on what I've seen, including the evidence you cite, it appears at best inconclusive as to whether the Germans systematically killed Jews with poisonous gas. Since I don't deny the Nazi regime was brutal and criminal, there's only so much quibbling I'll bother to do. However, the Holocaust was cited in justification of establishing a Jewish state in Palestine which has caused enormous problems and consumed billions of US tax dollars. It is also repeatedly rolled out in favor of awful "civil rights" and "anti-hate crime" legislation. It is also cited to justify claims for reparations from people who bear no responsibility whatsoever for WWII from an oddly increasing pool of survivors. When anybody questions any aspect of the Holocaust rationale, they are persecuted and even criminally prosecuted. Again, this alone should provoke a critical examination of some of the more fantastic claims.

[Sulla the Dictator]

I'm curious, Tom. Do you actually believe that Stalin killed twenty million people?

[A. Radek]

I think that you are missing the point.

No, Basil was lying, and intentionally so ...

The claims made by Holocaust proponents are sensational and incredible...and one must suspend disbelief and accept the existence of shadowy, evil conspiracies to believe them.

No, it was a big part of Nazi intentions in the East, and the West as well. you have to suspend disbelief to claim otherwise.

Suggesting that world leaders, generals, industrialists held secret meetings and formulated plans to murder every Jewish person in the world with an astronomically costly and bizarre array of death factories and killing apparatus is simply not credible...

Nobody is 'suggesting' anything but what happened. What makes you say it was costly? These camps were not expensive, and helped centralize looting. they more than paid for themselves. They took little in the way of German troops to guard, and they made it easy to eliminate the Great Jewish Threat Hitler had built his party on.

anymore than it is credible to suggest that the Illuminati, the Freemasons, and a world-Jewish cabal conspire to oppress the global population and manipulate the acts of nations.

Conflate and make up hyperbolic comparisons all you want. Creative writing is a nice hobby, especially at the Phora.

[Thomas777]

I'm curious, Tom. Do you actually believe that Stalin killed twenty million people?

I really don't know. That said, I don't believe that Stalin and the CPSU leadership as well as that of the Red Army conspired to exterminate all Ukranians and Kulaks...but then again, nobody makes THAT claim. I wonder why that is?

[Sulla the Dictator]

I really don't know. That said, I don't believe that Stalin and the CPSU leadership as well as that of the Red Army conspired to exterminate all Ukranians and Kulaks...but then again, nobody makes THAT claim. I wonder why that is?

Wait. You don't believe that Stalin in conjunction with the upper echelons of the NKVD intentionally ordered the direct execution of millions of people, and knowingly enacted policies which would result in the deaths of millions of others?

You certainly don't doubt that MILLIONS of people died, correct?

[Thomas777]

No, Basil was lying, and intentionally so ...
I don't think that is the case. Basil interprets history differently than you do...I don't always agree with him, but I have found his posts to be (without exception) erudite and thought provoking. Its a bit out of line to impugn his character because you disagree with his interpretations of historical events.



No, it was a big part of Nazi intentions in the East, and the West as well. you have to suspend disbelief to claim otherwise.
I don't believe in mass conspiracies against Jews...anymore than I believe in the conspiracy theories promulgated by Glenn Miller. I agree with you that the Nazi regime was an immoral and brutal regime that killed civillians in the East as a matter of practice. I am not however going to accept some conspiracy theory that posits Jews as martyred victims of a world conspiracy.



Nobody is 'suggesting' anything but what happened. What makes you say it was costly? These camps were not expensive, and helped centralize looting. they more than paid for themselves. They took little in the way of German troops to guard, and they made it easy to eliminate the Great Jewish Threat Hitler had built his party on.
Erecting a series of camps in which millions of people are to be kept under control and then killed with poison gas could not possibly be a thrifty venture.

[Thomas777]

Wait. You don't believe that Stalin in conjunction with the upper echelons of the NKVD intentionally ordered the direct execution of millions of people, and knowingly enacted policies which would result in the deaths of millions of others?

You certainly don't doubt that MILLIONS of people died, correct?

Stalin ordered the execution of people who ran afoul of his peculiar regime. His victims very likely numbered in the millions...but there was no conspiracy at the highest levels of government to exterminate insular groups of people.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Stalin ordered the execution of people who ran afoul of his peculiar regime. His victims very likely numbered in the millions...


I don't understand. What makes you believe that?


but there was no conspiracy at the highest levels of government to exterminate insular groups of people.

Was there a conspiracy at the highest levels of government to exterminate groups of individuals, and to keep the extent and nature of that bloodbath secret?

[A. Radek]

I don't think that is the case. Basil interprets history differently than you do...I don't always agree with him, but I have found his posts to be (without exception) erudite and thought provoking. Its a bit out of line to impugn his character because you disagree with his interpretations of historical events.

Basil has no character to impugne.


I don't believe in mass conspiracies against Jews...anymore than I believe in the conspiracy theories promulgated by Glenn Miller. I agree with you that the Nazi regime was an immoral and brutal regime that killed civillians in the East as a matter of practice. I am not however going to accept some conspiracy theory that posits Jews as martyred victims of a world conspiracy.

Nobody said it was a 'world conspiracy'.

Erecting a series of camps in which millions of people are to be kept under control and then killed with poison gas could not possibly be a thrifty venture.

Nobody claimed they were all killed by poison gas, nor is anybody claiming they were all kept in these camps at the same time.

[Sulla the Dictator]

I don't believe in mass conspiracies against Jews...anymore than I believe in the conspiracy theories promulgated by Glenn Miller. I agree with you that the Nazi regime was an immoral and brutal regime that killed civillians in the East as a matter of practice. I am not however going to accept some conspiracy theory that posits Jews as martyred victims of a world conspiracy.


So then its your belief that death camps were erected by men in the field, 'winging it', as it were, and that Himmler was misled about their nature when he VISITED them?

And the German government isn't a 'world conspiracy'.

[Thomas777]

I don't understand. What makes you believe that?
I don't know exactly how many people perished under Stalin's rule. That said, Stalin and the NKVD executed large numbers of people over the course of three decades and really made no effort to hide what was taking place. Stalin created a Communist terror state that employed very public reprisals against people who dissented. There was no conspiracy underway...just brutal and heavyhanded repression.

If Ukranian nationals begin claiming that Stalin was the architect of a global conspiracy to exterminate Ukranians and suggesting that the purpose of the Soviet government was the extermination of Ukranians, I will take exception to such a claim...do u feel better now?



Was there a conspiracy at the highest levels of government to exterminate groups of individuals, and to keep the extent and nature of that bloodbath secret?
Not really. The CPSU made it pretty clear that agitating against them would likely earn one a death sentence that would be carried out most expeditiously.

[Thomas777]

So then its your belief that death camps were erected by men in the field, 'winging it', as it were, and that Himmler was misled about their nature when he VISITED them?



I believe that the Third Reich housed people in concentration camps and that many of these people died. The British did the same thing during the Boer war and the CSA did the same thing to Union POWs at the Andersenville facility.

Do you believe that Andersenville was designed to exterminate captured union troops?

And the German government isn't a 'world conspiracy'.
Holocaust propnents claim that the Third Reich, the Vatican, FDR, Winston Churchill, the Governments of Croatia, Hungary, Romania, France, Norway, Greece, Italy, Spain, Bulgaria, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and others all conspired by various acts and omissions to kill every Jewish person in the world.

[Sulla the Dictator]

What do you say to this outrageous Holocaustian suggestion from Fade, Fade?


Of course. Forgeries. Conspiracies. Mistranslations. Accusations like that are always the crutch that I constantly see being brought out in order to refute the historical consensus on the subject. Yet when they are thrown around so often, again and again, one has to question their credibility, especially in light of other sources that confirm the matter. On whose authority do we have this?

--Fade the Butcher


Perhaps there were no "eyewintesses" to the millions of deaths, perhaps there were no millions of bodies to be found, perhaps this is because these millions of people did not die. Perhaps they fled to other countries, which is true, during and before the war to America, Britain, Switzerland, Sweden, The Soviet Union, North Africa, Latin America et cetera. Perhaps this is why millions of people after the war were filing for reparations claims. The 6 million number is arbitrary. It is simply bad statistics. The death toll has been revised numerous times, by hundreds of thousands in many areas if not millions in others.

--Fade the Butcher

http://www.discussanything.com/forums/showthread.php?p=247925&highlight=Poland#post247925

[Sulla the Dictator]

I believe that the Third Reich housed people in concentration camps and that many of these people died. The British did the same thing during the Boer war and the CSA did the same thing to Union POWs at the Andersenville facility.


You compare the Holocaust to those things to diminish it, since as you know full well the scale of the atrocity was much larger. If I recall, you yourself have cited a body count of 11 million people when saying that too much focus is on the Jews.

Change your mind?


Do you believe that Andersenville was designed to exterminate captured union troops?


No. But then again, I didn't make the specious Andersonville comparison, you did. The Nazis deliberately murdered people. You don't 'accidently' shoot large numbers of people, do you?



Holocaust propnents claim that the Third Reich, the Vatican, FDR, Winston Churchill, the Governments of Croatia, Hungary, Romania, France, Norway, Greece, Italy, Spain, Bulgaria, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and others all conspired by various acts and omissions to kill every Jewish person in the world.

Thats actually false, and many of the nations you mentioned are CREDITED for resisting German pressure to give up their Jews. Hungary and Bulgaria among them, for example, Axis members.

Thats why the slaughter of Hungarian Jews coincided with greater German control of the Hungarian state in 1944.

These are suggestions that come from someone only vaguely aware of the issue.

[A. Radek]

I believe that the Third Reich housed people in concentration camps and that many of these people died.

Some were sent to labor camps. Others were housed in many different ghettos, Warsaw being the largest, and then parceled to various death camps for the specific purpose of murdering them. Gypsies and other groups targeted for extermination were also forced into these ghettos, not just Jews. Treblinka, the subject of this thread, was one of several camps set up for this. It was also more than one camp, with one being a labor camp set up to operate a quarry to provide for an early plan to fortify a defensive line in Poland. IT was later expanded to accomodate a death camp as well, because of it's location.

The British did the same thing during the Boer war and the CSA did the same thing to Union POWs at the Andersenville facility.


No, the British, the CSA, and the Union didn't set up death camps specifically designed and engineered to exterminate large numbers of people, so it's not quite 'the same thing'.

Holocaust propnents claim that the Third Reich, the Vatican, FDR, Winston Churchill, the Governments of Croatia, Hungary, Romania, France, Norway, Greece, Italy, Spain, Bulgaria, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and others all conspired by various acts and omissions to kill every Jewish person in the world.

Nobody claimed they all conspired together. You are merely trying to say that's the claim. In the Balkan states allied with Germany, and/or occupied by them, some governments happily complied with Nazi requests, others resisted, or dragged their feet, some countries had a mixture of all three activities. The Vichy government in France was a Nazi puppet government, so was Norway's. They tried to kill every Jew they could in the territories they controlled, and even attempted to inspire the Arab countries to do the same in the Middle East, especially from the Vichy controlled Arab states. Mussolini was active in attempts to create Arab uprisings in the Middle East in order to damage British control of their territories there, and weaken their control of the Canal Zone, even before war was declared.

[A. Radek]

You compare the Holocaust to those things to diminish it, since as you know full well the scale of the atrocity was much larger. If I recall, you yourself have cited a body count of 11 million people when saying that too much focus is on the Jews.

Change your mind?

He has said that? So, he's just bullshitting here, then.

Thats actually false, and many of the nations you mentioned are CREDITED for resisting German pressure to give up their Jews. Hungary and Bulgaria among them, for example, Axis members.

Thats why the slaughter of Hungarian Jews coincided with greater German control of the Hungarian state in 1944.

True.

These are suggestions that come from someone only vaguely aware of the issue.

Like Basil and Dan.

[Trojan]

Holocaust propnents claim that the Third Reich, the Vatican, FDR, Winston Churchill, the Governments of Croatia, Hungary, Romania, France, Norway, Greece, Italy, Spain, Bulgaria, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and others all conspired by various acts and omissions to kill every Jewish person in the world.

Bullshit ... who, specifically, claims that FDR, the Vatican, Winston Churchill, etc. conspired with the Germans to kill every Jewish person in the world?

This makes no sence. What the hell are you talking about. The allies were at war with Nazi Germany, they did not conspire with the Nazi's to murder the jews.

The Third Reich conspired with its puppet governments and such, but the allies NEVER actively conspired with the Nazi's to murder the jews. How many jews from Spain were sent to Nazi camps? How many jews did FDR ship to Germany for extermination?

Are you making this up as you go along?

[Thomas777]

Bullshit ... who, specifically, claims that FDR, the Vatican, Winston Churchill, etc. conspired with the Germans to kill every Jewish person in the world?

This makes no sence. What the hell are you talking about. The allies were at war with Nazi Germany, they did not conspire with the Nazi's to murder the jews.

The Third Reich conspired with its puppet governments and such, but the allies NEVER actively conspired with the Nazi's to murder the jews. How many jews from Spain were sent to Nazi camps? How many jews did FDR ship to Germany for extermination?

Are you making this up as you go along?

Please don't be a clown.

As you well know, politically motivated fiction such as "Hitler's Pope" and "The Plot Against America" promulgate asinine theories that are largely accepted which propose that the US Government and the Vatican exhibited a sort of deliberate indifference towards European Jewry...which (according to the false calculus of Holocaust believers) resulted in the destruction of European Jewry by omission.

So in response to your histrionic accusations, no I am not "making this up as I go along".

[Trojan]

So you equate failure to act to prevent a criminal act to the guilt associated with the criminal act itself?

This is a fallacious argument, especially when you consider the most horendous acts were perpetrated while a majority of those that failed to act were at war with the criminal.

Hitler rehabilitation is alive and well.

[Thomas777]

So you equate failure to act to prevent a criminal act to the guilt associated with the criminal act itself?

I do no such thing. People like Alan Dershowitz, Abe Foxman, Phillip Roth, and Steven Speilberg do...THEY, not I, are the proponents of the Holocaust conspiracy theory.

This is a fallacious argument,

Yes it certainly is.

[A. Radek]

Please don't be a clown.


Don't get angry. He's not trying to upstage your act, so there's no need to rant and get defensive.

I do no such thing. People like Alan Dershowitz, Abe Foxman, Phillip Roth, and Steven Speilberg do...THEY, not I, are the proponents of the Holocaust conspiracy theory.

Really? So, 'Da Joos' have been planning this massive 'conspiracy', and they built the camps and secretly guided the Nazi Party all along, beginning with forging Mein Kampf, and manipulated the Germans all the way through to 1945. They forced thousands of witnesses in a dozen countries to lie, including large numbers of German officers, and all of them were acting in concert to slander Hitler and the Nazis? You should get a grip; you've been reading too many of Basil's and Dan's crackpot posts.

[Thomas777]

Really? So, 'Da Joos' have been planning this massive 'conspiracy', and they built the camps and secretly guided the Nazi Party all along, beginning with forging Mein Kampf, and manipulated the Germans all the way through to 1945. They forced thousands of witnesses in a dozen countries to lie, including large numbers of German officers, and all of them were acting in concert to slander Hitler and the Nazis? You should get a grip; you've been reading too many of Basil's and Dan's crackpot posts.

Unlike you and your ideological colleagues, I don't believe in conspiracy theories.

People such as yourself spew out ludicrous agitprop to give moral context to your agenda. Its really not a new or dynamic phenomenon...its just more memetically focused than other, similar efforts have been in eras past.

[Trojan]

I do no such thing. People like Alan Dershowitz, Abe Foxman, Phillip Roth, and Steven Speilberg do...THEY, not I, are the proponents of the Holocaust conspiracy theory.



Yes it certainly is.

Is there an English interpretation of this available? :rolleyes:

[Thomas777]

Is there an English interpretation of this available? :rolleyes:

Don't they still speak English in Pittsburgh?

[A. Radek]

Unlike you and your ideological colleagues, I don't believe in conspiracy theories.

I don't have an ideology, that's for dullards and people incapable of making their own decisions. We're still waiting on evidence of this conspiracy theory you keep raving about.

The topic of this thread is Treblinka, by the way, so if you have nothing to add but the same old nonsense Dan and Basil attempt, and just as badly, we can now write you off as a troll, and a dumb one at that.

People such as yourself spew out ludicrous agitprop to give moral context to your agenda. Its really not a new or dynamic phenomenon...its just more memetically focused than other, similar efforts have been in eras past.


It's in response to an old and very undynamic agenda, namely Nazi inspired gibberish, so, it's only logical you have to resort to the usual specious hyperbole. You can't salvage anything from your dumbass effort, either, just as Basil and Danny can't from theirs. Once again, given your almost nonexistent attention span, the topic is about Treblinka, get it yet? Nobody gives a flying fuck about your inane philosophical ramblings.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Sulla: Then its your position that the photographs might show excavators in a quarry. The background looks like it might be a quarry to you, right?


Dan Dare: It very well could. The terrain in that part of Poland of very flat and sandy. There are few distinguishing topographical features between Warsaw and the Baltic coast as you would know if you had ever been there. Good tank country, as they say.


Quarries in Poland.

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Plaszow/Plaszow01.jpg

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Plaszow/Plaszow02.jpg

http://www.igergru.bbsrc.ac.uk/welcome/gru/collections/overseas/poland%2090/photos/C0309_small.jpg

Dan, is this still a quarry?

http://www.holocaust-history.org/Treblinka/appendixd/FigureD4.jpg

[Sulla the Dictator]

The Bodzów quarry:

http://www.eko.uj.edu.pl/przyrodakrakowa/grafika/ksero1.jpg

And Treblinka?

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp25.jpg

[Sulla the Dictator]

http://www2.freefoto.com//images_d/13/11/13_11_54_web.jpg?&k=Gravel

Quite a view.

http://www.bgs.ac.uk/mineralsuk/industry/jun_sag.jpg

Treblinka:

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp26.jpg

A bit too flat, old boy.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Now Dan, are you able to see the gravel quarry in this photograph?

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/biglabourair.jpg

[cerberus]

Does seem to more sand than gravel , sand which was not being moved off site.
I thought that the main purpose of a quarry was to provide material which was taken away for use in the construction industry , this particular " quarry" seems to work differently.
Why ?

[Dan Dare]

Now Dan, are you able to see the gravel quarry in this photograph?

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/biglabourair.jpg

Yes the gravel workings are at the upper right side, as you well know since you took the above photo from the same site that has a map with it marked on it.

Here is another picture of the gravel pit, not very deep [or rocky] is it? It was still being worked almost a year after the extermination camp was supposed to have eradicated, perhaps even much later. I would imagine that excavators were used throughout the whole period the pit was in operation.

But, once again, unlike you I am not claiming any specific location for the photographs.

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/pit.jpg

[cerberus]

If , if this was a transit camp for killing lice - where did the prisoners move on to ?
How many other such lice killing camps existed.
Seems odd as the disease process was created by the adminstration itself and the less than humane way they treated the target group.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Yes the gravel workings are at the upper right side, as you well know since you took the above photo from the same site that has a map with it marked on it.


That chalky, desert looking region of the map?


Here is another picture of the gravel pit, not very deep [or rocky] is it?


Thats because thats a small picture. Take another look.

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigpit.jpg

From the larger picture, we can clearly see this is a much deeper hole than in the excavator photos flat plain.


It was still being worked almost a year after the extermination camp was supposed to have eradicated, perhaps even much later. I would imagine that excavators were used throughout the whole period the pit was in operation.


I see. So I'm curious, WAS there an upper camp? WERE there Jewish prisoners?


But, once again, unlike you I am not claiming any specific location for the photographs.


Maybe you're not now. Will you agree that those excavator pictures were deffinately not taken in the Treblnka quarry?

[Dan Dare]

If , if this was a transit camp for killing lice - where did the prisoners move on to ?
How many other such lice killing camps existed.
Seems odd as the disease process was created by the adminstration itself and the less than humane way they treated the target group.

Excavators first please cerberus.

[Dan Dare]

That chalky, desert looking region of the map?

Thats because thats a small picture. Take another look.

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigpit.jpg

From the larger picture, we can clearly see this is a much deeper hole than in the excavator photos flat plain.

We do not know when the excavator pictures where taken, or where.

BTW you were aware that the principal witness for the standard account, on whose testimony the approved map of the extermination camp is based, states that the burial pits were 10 m deep?

I see. So I'm curious, WAS there an upper camp? WERE there Jewish prisoners?

If by upper camp you mean the Arbeitslager, yes there was. The prisoners there were principally Poles, it was actually a penal camp.

Maybe you're not now. Will you agree that those excavator pictures were deffinately not taken in the Treblnka quarry?

No. I don't believe that possibility can be ruled out.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Dan, is that chalky, desert looking portion of the Treblinka air photo the quarry?

We do not know when the excavator pictures where taken, or where.


Sure we do. We know it because we know who took the photos. You're arguing against it because you can't allow for there to be a Holocaust.


BTW you were aware that the principal witness for the standard account, on whose testimony the approved map of the extermination camp is based, states that the burial pits were 10 m deep?


Excavators first, please Dan.


If by upper camp you mean the Arbeitslager, yes there was. The prisoners there were principally Poles, it was actually a penal camp.


No, I don't. I mean the Totenlager. The Death camp.

I don't even need you to agree with the nature of the camp. I would like you to tell me if there were Jewish prisoners at Treblinka.


No. I don't believe that possibility can be ruled out.

So Dan, are you the only person here who can't see a difference between that quarry and the flat terrain the excavators are working on?

[Joe Fields1488]

What happened at Auchwitz?
Jews were forced to actually WORK for a change.
Upon arrival, when they read the motto "Arbeit Macht Frei" (Work sets you free) they had a collective heart attack at the prospect of actually being made to work for a change....hence the "holocaust.":rofl:

[A. Radek]

What happened at Auchwitz?
Jews were forced to actually WORK for a change.
Upon arrival, when they read the motto "Arbeit Macht Frei" (Work sets you free) they had a collective heart attack at the prospect of actually being made to work for a change....hence the "holocaust.":rofl:

your ignorant explanation is more credible than Dan's.:rofl:

[Dan Dare]

Dan, is that chalky, desert looking portion of the Treblinka air photo the quarry?

You need to be more specific with your references, your vagueness is becoming something of a problem.

Exactly which Treblinka air photo are you referring to?

Sure we do. We know it because we know who took the photos. You're arguing against it because you can't allow for there to be a Holocaust.

I see nothing in the photos that establishes either their provenance, the location that is being photographed, or the date on which they were taken.

You are aware I take it that the Franz album is supposed to include photographs taken in places other than Treblinka, Malkinia for example, as well as during his days in T4?

Excavators first, please Dan.

After you, retraction or substatiation please.

No, I don't. I mean the Totenlager. The Death camp.

In that case, we don't know. The evidence is contradictory; that is why I am suggesting an independent investigation to locate the mass graves and the remains. The standard story stands or falls on the presence of those graves.

I don't even need you to agree with the nature of the camp. I would like you to tell me if there were Jewish prisoners at Treblinka.

Again, you need to be specific in your queries. In this case I am assuming you mean T II, and I would say (as I have before) that there was certainly some kind of German installation, the full extent of which remains unclear. It seems indisputable that there would have been Jewish prisoners in the vicinity.

So Dan, are you the only person here who can't see a difference between that quarry and the flat terrain the excavators are working on?

On the contrary, the gravel pit covers a large area. It is likely that some parts were at the the prevailing ground level before excavation started, and it is likely that new sections were opened up from time to time. That could be what we being shown in the photographs. As mentioned the workings were in operation for several years.

Again, it is not for me to eliminate all the possibilities, that is the task that you and Potty set for yourselves when you made your original assertions.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Wrong Dan. It isn't up to us to 'eliminate all the possibilities' in representing history. Its our job to look at the evidence, measure it in total, and come to a reasonable conclusion about what happened.

Your behaviour isn't reasonable, Dan. You originally suggested that the excavators were in the quarry. I pointed out that this is a quarry unlike any I'd ever seen. A flat quarry. You said thats how 'quarries are in Poland'.

I showed that isn't the case. Then provided comparisons. Now the pictures aren't enough. Now the PHOTO of the quarry at Treblinka isn't enough.

And not only is it not enough, Dan doesn't feel the need to provide any evidence to show that the photograph I provided isn't representative of the quarry. He just says he doesn't 'know'.

This thread has established, quite clearly, that Holocaust denial is either done in malice or ignorance.

[Dan Dare]

Wrong Dan. It isn't up to us to 'eliminate all the possibilities' in representing history. Its our job to look at the evidence, measure it in total, and come to a reasonable conclusion about what happened.

You don't appear to have done the job in this specific instance.

Your behaviour isn't reasonable, Dan. You originally suggested that the excavators were in the quarry.

I suggested it as a possibility. There are probably numerous others.

I pointed out that this is a quarry unlike any I'd ever seen. A flat quarry. You said thats how 'quarries are in Poland'.

No I didn't. I stated that the terrain is flat and sandy in that area.

I showed that isn't the case. Then provided comparisons. Now the pictures aren't enough. Now the PHOTO of the quarry at Treblinka isn't enough.

The photograph of the quarry shows that the terrain is not rocky but sandy as I claimed earlier. Also that the quarry is not very deep at least in the section shown in the photograph. Certainly little if any deeper than the 10 m that the mass graves are supposed to have been.

And not only is it not enough, Dan doesn't feel the need to provide any evidence to show that the photograph I provided isn't representative of the quarry. He just says he doesn't 'know'.

No, I have suggested that the photos in which the excavators are shown moving dirt or sand could have been taken at a point where new workings were being established. Gravels pits do usually start off at ground level you know.

This thread has established, quite clearly, that Holocaust denial is either done in malice or ignorance.

The only thing I am denying is that you have produced irrefutable pictorial evidence of excavators in the process of exhumation in the Totenlager at T II.

Time to piss or get off the pot, Sulla.

[A. Radek]

So, the Innuendo King doesn't have squat to prove those photos are faked. So, they still stand as being what they are claimed to be. We already knew that. 23 pages so far, and no actual legitimate revisionism evident, except, of course, from Arad's summary of a report, where he revises a couple of inaccuracies. A poor showing indeed.

[cerberus]

Nothing seems to have moved out of this quarry , the one which Sulla is discussing.
I find it highly unlikely that earth was being moved for no reason.
If it was not being removed - why move it ?

[A. Radek]

Nothing seems to have moved out of this quarry , the one which Sulla is discussing.
I find it highly unlikely that earth was being moved for no reason.
If it was not being removed - why move it ?

Well, it's annoying observations like these that give Denial a bad name.

In one of the bird's eye pics, at what Dan claims to be a 'sand and gravel pit', those excavators would have to wind through some gates on a very indirect path to reach the rail spur. I guess the answer is Nazi engineers were morons and this was just poor planning. LOL

[Joe Fields1488]

The only point that needs to be made is that revisionist history rings true...from Prof. Butz "Hoax of the 20th Century" to the Harwood pamphlet from years ago.."Did Six Million Really Die?" to the Leuchter Report, to "Giant With Feet Of Clay" by Rudolf. Contrast this with the ridiculous establishment "holocaust" stories...lampshades, soap, etc....and the WHOPPER told at the Great Holocaust Trial of Ernst Zundel more than 20 years ago by "holocaust expert" Rudolph Vrba taken under testimony, that one could tell the nationality of jews being burned by the color of smoke going up the chimney. C'mon!!!
Bottom line: The "holocaust" is a jew/zionist prpaganda weapon to silence and bludgeon into intimidation anyone who speaks out in opposition to the machinations and interests of organized jewry world-wide and the parasitic state of Israel. The TRUTH is coming out, and it drives the jews nuts. Hence "thought crime" trials against Irving, Zundel, Rudolf, etc.
If the holocaust is a fact, then WHY do they go to such lengths to silence revisionists world-wide? Because the TRUTH would end their little con-game and THEN there would be hell to pay. Then the world would return to sanity and western man would regain his immune system...and expell the parasites and culture-distorters in our midst.

[Dan Dare]

Nothing seems to have moved out of this quarry , the one which Sulla is discussing.
I find it highly unlikely that earth was being moved for no reason.
If it was not being removed - why move it ?

If this is indeed the gravel pit that we are seeing, then it appears that the excavators are in the process of removing the overburden. The modern-day photo of the pit clearly shows the presence of piles of such material.

There would obviously have had to have been some means of transfering the underlying gravel to the railspur, it seems obvious that it would have been most inefficient for each excavator to trundle over and dump each individual load into a railway wagon. Trucks, perhaps? Maybe horse and cart - there is a photograph of one of those in operation. Polish slave labourers with wheelbarrows? The available accounts don't provide much detail on the daily operations of the gravel extraction operation.

[cerberus]

Horses and carts , mene with wheel barrows - are you running an industrial quarry which works to serve industry or simply making it up as you go along ?
Sorry Dan for me it does not add up.

[Sulla the Dictator]

You don't appear to have done the job in this specific instance.


Dan, I'd like to invite you to do a little experiment with me. If you would indulge me a bit, I'd really like you to do this.

I'd like you to take a moment and apply your level of skepticism to a historical atrocity that you actually believe in. Be it Mao's Great Leap Forward or the Boer War or Stalin's gulag Archipelago.

I'd like it if you asked yourself what evidence of those events exists that you find credible that you find lacking with the Holocaust. Applying the same level of skeptical analysis you're aiming at this event.


I suggested it as a possibility. There are probably numerous others.


Sure. Its possible there never was a battle of Austerlitz. Thats possible, isn't it?


No I didn't. I stated that the terrain is flat and sandy in that area.


Thats not how quarries work.


The photograph of the quarry shows that the terrain is not rocky but sandy as I claimed earlier.


Actually it shows that the quarry is a bit overgrown, so I can't agree to that necessarily.

Which wouldn't matter even if you were right, since the excavators are moving discolored dirt. A result of soil layers, not sand.


Also that the quarry is not very deep at least in the section shown in the photograph.


I disagree. They're deep enough for a visible difference in elevation that you can't miss in the larger photograph. Its not as drastic as a limestone quarry, but its deep enough to be similar to the pictures I provided of gravel quarries.


Certainly little if any deeper than the 10 m that the mass graves are supposed to have been.


I don't see a ten meter ridge in the Treblinka excavator photos.


No, I have suggested that the photos in which the excavators are shown moving dirt or sand could have been taken at a point where new workings were being established. Gravels pits do usually start off at ground level you know.


Ok. This is new. Or atleast, this is something you're elaborating on for the first time that I've seen. You believe that the excavators are working on creating the quarry that would later come to look like the modern picture?


The only thing I am denying is that you have produced irrefutable pictorial evidence of excavators in the process of exhumation in the Totenlager at T II.


Its pretty strong. But there's more. :)

The problem here Dan is that I've advanced a historically recognized event, regarded as fact.

You keep saying what might be 'possible' but are offering no real alternatives. You keep suggesting possibilities to dispute what I present each time.

Each time you do it, you discard the previous possibilities. This looks less like a desire to reach an understanding of what occured and more like an effort to simply argue against the slaughter of Jews at Treblinka.


Time to piss or get off the pot, Sulla.

:nono:

Only one of is providing evidence Dan. You should keep that in mind.

[Dan Dare]

I'm not running anything, merely trying to respond intelligently to your earlier questions.

I won't bother in future.

[cerberus]

That Dan is up to you , not trying to get under your skin.
It just does not give trhe impresion of a quarry , there are many in my own locality and what is going on in the photos just does not look like anything I have seen.
Now I grant you - I am not an engineer , but the process of getting materials out of the earth sorted and moved demands machinery not hand labour - not if you need the materials in a reasonable time scale.

[Sulla the Dictator]

If this is indeed the gravel pit that we are seeing, then it appears that the excavators are in the process of removing the overburden.


The picture I posted looks as though its filling a hole.


The modern-day photo of the pit clearly shows the presence of piles of such material.


Were those man height piles 'overburden'?


There would obviously have had to have been some means of transfering the underlying gravel to the railspur, it seems obvious that it would have been most inefficient for each excavator to trundle over and dump each individual load into a railway wagon. Trucks, perhaps? Maybe horse and cart - there is a photograph of one of those in operation. Polish slave labourers with wheelbarrows? The available accounts don't provide much detail on the daily operations of the gravel extraction operation.

Do you think its more realistic for a cart to be hauling bodies to a pit or gravel to a distant railspur?

Which is a more realistic use for a wooden cart in the context of a concentration camp?

[Dan Dare]

Sorry, I'm not playing Twenty Questions.

Put or shut up.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Sorry, I'm not playing Twenty Questions.

Put or shut up.

Dan hasn't rebutted anything posted by myself, Potyondi, Cerebus, or Radek.

He's just more prideful so he stayed longer. GG Dan.

[Trojan]

Sorry, I'm not playing Twenty Questions.

Put or shut up.


In other words - "I'm the revisionist. I hold no burden of proof, nor do I respond to direct quetions. Rather, you must prove every point to my satisfactions under my conditions, failure to do so means I win.

Oh, btw, I have the right to move the goal posts if I think you are getting close."

[Sulla the Dictator]

In other words - "I'm the revisionist. I hold no burden of proof, nor do I respond to direct quetions. Rather, you must prove every point to my satisfactions under my conditions, failure to do so means I win.

Oh, btw, I have the right to move the goal posts if I think you are getting close."

LOL That just about sums it up. The constantly shifting theories, all of which are based on doubt rather than evidence.