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View Full Version : An Irish Dilemma - Schengen or the Common Travel Area?


Dan Dare
08-14-2008, 01:38 AM
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/5383/schengenkj7.gif (http://imageshack.us)

The Schengen Area


Now that practically every other country in the EU/EEA is either a member or shortly to join the Schengen Area, should Ireland opt out of the Common Travel Area and join in also?

Since the UK is unlikely to sign up to Schengen Agreement in the foreseeable future, the dilemma for Ireland is whether to preserve the CTA or joing Schengen. If it opts for the latter then Irish citizens will be subject the immigration controls not just when arriving in the mainland UK, but also when travelling into Northern Ireland.

Since one of the reasons why Ireland is not already part of Schengen is the political imperative of maintaining the fiction that the island is a single polity (or eventually will become one), the notion of the re-institution of ‘internal’ border controls is anathema. Various trial balloons ( http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2007/1224/1197997311821.html) have been floated touting the idea that that Ireland ‘as a whole’ (ie the Republic and Northern Ireland) could join Schengen without affecting the political status of the North, but that would then entail that British citizens in Northern Ireland would be subject to immigration control when travelling to the rest of the UK.

A tricky one, this.

The Common Travel Area and the Schengen Area (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area#The_Common_Travel_Area_and_the_Schengen_Area)

In 1985 five member states of the then European Economic Community signed the Schengen Agreement on the gradual dropping of border controls between their respective countries. This agreement provided for the extension of the Benelux Passport Free Zone to France and Germany, broadly speaking, along the same lines as the Common Travel Area albeit one formalised in the form of the Schengen Treaty. Although the treaty was not implemented until 1995, two years later during the Amsterdam Intergovernmental Conference, all European Union member states except the United Kingdom and Ireland, and two non-member states Norway and Iceland had signed the Schengen Agreement. During those negotiations, which lead to Amsterdam Treaty and the incorporation of Schengen into the main body of European Union law, Britain and Ireland obtained an opt-out affirming their right to maintain systematic passport and immigration controls at their frontiers. If either or both the United Kingdom and Ireland were to join Schengen the Common Travel Area would come to an end. If one were to join without the other, the joining country would have to exercise border controls vis-à-vis the other thus ending the zone. If both were to join all the functions of the area would be subsumed into the Schengen provisions and the Area would cease to have any separate existence.

Britain has always opposed the lowering of its border controls as they believe their island status makes them better able to enforce immigration controls than continental European countries with "extensive and permeable land borders".[20] In contrast, Ireland, while not signing the Schengen Treaty, has always looked more favourably on joining but has not done so in order to maintain the Common Travel Area and its open border with Northern Ireland.[21] (Although somewhat paradoxically, in 1997 Ireland imposed selective identity and immigration controls on anyone arriving from the United Kingdom[17], measures which would not have been permitted if both countries were part of the Schengen Area). This is a position which is reflected in the Schengen opt-out secured by Britain and Ireland in the Amsterdam Treaty. While the protocol applies unconditionally to the United Kingdom, it only applies to Ireland for as long as the Common Travel Area is maintained.[22]

Gregz
08-14-2008, 03:25 AM
Eire recently raise it's border controls and now has reactivated passport controls with the Islamic republic of Englandstan. :rofl:

Felix the Cat
08-14-2008, 04:24 AM
This issue (freedom of movement within the EU) is controversial, and becoming moreso as the union enlarges

Even if the common external border is made impermeable, there's still the problem of potential mass-movements of European migrants

I don't think Schengen has a future if it's extended to most of central/eastern Europe

cerberus
08-15-2008, 10:24 AM
I think it stands to reason that there have to be some limitations and controls.

Errigal
08-15-2008, 01:06 PM
I don't want to sound like a schoolteacher, but a common immigration and customs policy would be a good exercise in teamwork for the whole of Ireland. The great majority of the Irish would like a customs and immigration policy stricter than the current one; and the Billy Boys of Antrim never say no to government policies which lean toward the xenophobic, so it would be ideal.

Basil Fawlty
08-15-2008, 01:41 PM
I don't want to sound like a schoolteacher, but a common immigration and customs policy would be a good exercise in teamwork for the whole of Ireland. The great majority of the Irish would like a customs and immigration policy stricter than the current one; and the Billy Boys of Antrim never say no to government policies which lean toward the xenophobic, so it would be ideal.I agree. This idea occured to me before. Unity will come about through practical needs rather than under the heady influence of lofty principles. When the friends of King Billy see more advantage in an all-Ireland approach to things than being at the mercies of Westminster, we are moving in the right direction.

Errigal
08-15-2008, 03:03 PM
I agree. This idea occured to me before. Unity will come about through practical needs rather than under the heady influence of lofty principles. When the friends of King Billy see more advantage in an all-Ireland approach to things than being at the mercies of Westminster, we are moving in the right direction.

Yes, Ulstermen, no matter how mad they are, like to think of themselves as practical and sensible people. A common border and immigration policy would strike the right note with them.

Dan Dare
08-15-2008, 03:40 PM
Well that's all very well and ecumenical to boot, but how would even mild-mannered Ulstermen like cerberus react to being required to carry a passport when visiting England, Scotland or Wales. Not to mention Masty!

Felix the Cat
08-16-2008, 02:19 AM
Well that's all very well and ecumenical to boot, but how would even mild-mannered Ulstermen like cerberus react to being required to carry a passport when visiting England, Scotland or Wales. Not to mention Masty! I suspect the main problem for such people would be getting back into Ireland, not leaving it

Errigal
08-16-2008, 12:46 PM
Well that's all very well and ecumenical to boot, but how would even mild-mannered Ulstermen like cerberus react to being required to carry a passport when visiting England, Scotland or Wales. Not to mention Masty!

Because of the security situation there were often checks at the Larne ferry docks or at the airports for flights to England and Scotland anyway. The province of Northern Ireland has always had a hazy and unusual status, a common immigration control zone for all of Ireland would just be another difference between the province and the "mainland" (what a comical term "the mainland" is by the way).