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jcs
02-18-2006, 04:33 PM
[An in-class essay for my ethics class.
"Which type of ethical theory, utility, rights, or duty, would be your best guide for dealing with the situations Frankl (a holocaust survivor) describes? How so, and why?"]

Were I in Frankl's position in the concentration camp(s), I would find it difficult to choose an ethical theory to guide my actions. Utility sets pleasure and/or happiness as its aim, but obviously that would be difficult to find in a concentration camp. Thus a utilitarian would have to abandon one sovereign and pledge full loyalty to the other alone: least common suffering would become his goal. But this would be unsuitable for me, because the lives of all the other prisoners were in the hands of others--others who sought to bring suffering. Only a feeling of utter helplessness would be achieved by adopting utlitarian ethics. Rights ethics entitle people to certain liberties and goods; but in a concentration camp, in which all rights are ignored, one could only complain about the denial of rights. --More helplessness! Duty ethics, with the respect given to others and the cultuivation of a sense of... duty, would give me the strength to act ethically.

Kant's categorical imperatives, his moral absolutism, would be extremely problematic in a situation such as Frankl's. For example: to fulfill his duty to his fellow prisoners, to be a good person, it was necessary for Frankl to lie to a guard about prisoners he helped hide. In another instance, Frankl had to feign enjoyment of a capo's poetry so as to keep himself out of harm. In both cases, honesty was sacrificed, the virtue of truth comprimised, to fulfill another sort of 'duty.'

Purely deontological ethical systems run into a big problem when considereing intent only in terms of the virtues involved in an action. Truth was not a virtue of any prisoner vis-a-vis the guards--and were they wrong for this? How could they be truthful, allowing others to suffer or die, and try to absolve any guilt from their consciences by turning to some theoretical ethical system? "It's his fault, not mine!"--bullshit. An action may find theoretical justification in a virtue or an imperative, but every action has a telos, that being the intended consequence; and a rational being who has an awareness of likely consequences must gauge the right course of action by weighing these probable results against his virtues. Tell the truth and you kill your friend; keep your friend alive and you neglect the virtue of truth. Choose a path and accept responsibility for the consequences.

Another problem with deontology is that one's intended consequences and the actual often conflict. Frankl discussed the great uncertainty involved in going from place to place. For instance, when he wasn't taken by Nazis to be 'freed' near the end of the war, he was actually saved, as those who were taken were killed. What if, in that situation, trying to be kind, I gave my place to a friend, wanting him to be freed before myself--only to later learn that I sent him to his death? I used the information I had, and acting selflessly, came to a rational decision. Ought I feel guilt? Not according to a duty ethicist. Ought my friend's surviving relatives blame me? Not according to a duty ethicist, nor most other ethicists, for that matter. But I question the morality, the humanity, of any man who would not, in such a situation, feel guilt.

To take responsibility for all wrongs, intended or accidental, that result from one's actions...: herein lies one's duty as a rational being capable of autonomous volition. And herein lies the beauty of duty ethics and the meaning they give to one in desperate situations--dignity, the absence of helplessness.

[Of course, humans do not have autonomous volition if we look at man from the vantage point of the cosmos. We, too, are subject to causality. But from a relative perspective, looking at the world from the vista of one living therein, I am at the very least a being defined by my will, unaware, save on an intellectual level, of my lack of a will of my own. Ethics is the study of action from this perspective.]

Péter
02-19-2006, 02:14 PM
How did your professor respond?

jcs
02-19-2006, 03:55 PM
How did your professor respond?
"A great [illegible--form? turn???] of ethical theory with a crescendo of a conclusion. 4.0"

Péter
02-19-2006, 04:36 PM
"A great [illegible--form? turn???] of ethical theory with a crescendo of a conclusion. 4.0"

lol way to say absolutely nothing

jcs
02-19-2006, 04:48 PM
lol way to say absolutely nothing
Yeah. He spends his energy tearing apart the essays that were low-quality. Which doesn't make sense, really: try to help failures--or try to make them feel bad--while basically ignoring those who can grasp basic concepts, letting them stagnate. But no matter; whenever someone tries to push me forward, I fail to recognize what they're doing and instead push back.

Blaphbee
02-19-2006, 04:52 PM
Yeah. He spends his energy tearing apart the essays that were low-quality. Which doesn't make sense, really: try to help failures--or try to make them feel bad--while basically ignoring those who can grasp basic concepts, letting them stagnate. But no matter; whenever someone tries to push me forward, I fail to recognize what they're doing and instead push back.
But if you can recognize your own behaviour, why can't you realize it in context?

(friendly question; this seems to be the case with a great many people I know, that they are aware of "problem areas" for lack of a better word, but can never seem to get them under control)

jcs
02-19-2006, 05:05 PM
But if you can recognize your own behaviour, why can't you realize it in context?

(friendly question; this seems to be the case with a great many people I know, that they are aware of "problem areas" for lack of a better word, but can never seem to get them under control)
I have greater problems than that; most notably, my complete and utter lack of discipline. This stems, of course, from the same pride that results in the abovementioned pushing-back. I am working on it.
However, while I know I will become more disciplined, I think my stubborness will remain with me forever, but false pride will be replaced by worthiness. I don't want to be done with my tendency to push back; it is one of the few character traits I have that I intend to keep, it being one of the few character traits I have that feel authentic to my being.

Blaphbee
02-19-2006, 05:15 PM
I have greater problems than that; most notably, my complete and utter lack of discipline. This stems, of course, from the same pride that results in the abovementioned pushing-back. I am working on it.
However, while I know I will become more disciplined, I think my stubborness will remain with me forever, but false pride will be replaced by worthiness. I don't want to be done with my tendency to push back; it is one of the few character traits I have that I intend to keep, it being one of the few character traits I have that feel authentic to my being.
You're such an egomaniac.:rofl:

Discipline is tough to achieve, but if you discipline jewrself to attain discipline, you magically end up with discipline. It sounds stupid, but it can really be that simple.

I found that focusing on outer traits began to influence the inner disciplinary problems. Some still remain, but the battle never ends, so they say.

You are a stubborn bitch though, I'll grant you that.

jcs
02-19-2006, 05:25 PM
You're such an egomaniac
For the record, I was looking more for a response to the ideas contained in the essay than any sort of ego-stroking. But I have no problem turning this into yet another thread about me. :D :D :D

:p

Blaphbee
02-19-2006, 05:37 PM
For the record, I was looking more for a response to the ideas contained in the essay than any sort of ego-stroking. But I have no problem turning this into yet another thread about me. :D :D :D

:p
Sorry, your majesty. I'll get right on it, after I finish up a few emails.

Die
02-20-2006, 03:34 AM
Ethics? Push back damn it! Push back! A healthy disdain for discipline goes hand in hand with the heroic.

jcs
02-20-2006, 03:41 AM
A healthy disdain for discipline goes hand in hand with the heroic.
Realize your error: read Sun and Steel by Yukio Mishima. If you're looking for a reason to take my advice: he's considered the greatest Japanese writer of the past century, and he died in a highly badass manner. But the best reason of all: he hated words, even clever words--he despised what we might call shallow truths; instead, he loved feeling. If any book was 'written in blood,' it was Sun and Steel.

Helios Panoptes
02-20-2006, 03:49 AM
Ethics? Push back damn it! Push back! A healthy disdain for discipline goes hand in hand with the heroic.

Really? I thought a disdain for discipline went hand-in-hand with a life of vacuous self-indulgence.

Die
02-20-2006, 03:53 AM
An all-out disdain would take you there no doubt. I did say a 'healthy' disdain.

Jcs, if the book approaches me, I will read it.

Helios Panoptes
02-20-2006, 03:58 AM
An all-out disdain would take you there no doubt. I did say a 'healthy' disdain.

It appears we are thinking of "discipline" differently. There is no such thing as a healthy disdain for discipline as I am using it(self-control, temperance, etc.).

jcs
02-20-2006, 03:58 AM
Jcs, if the book approaches me, I will read it.
It won't approach you due to the fact that it can be found only used, usually only by finding it from an obscure used seller online. But this is favorable: to glean anything from the book, one must be willing to approach it.

Die
02-20-2006, 04:10 AM
Helios, I can still find a healthy disdain in myself for the discipline of certain others as you define it, and even, I am reluctant to admit, for my own discipline. I know no better way to advance it.

Jcs, I shall go to it then.

Helios Panoptes
02-20-2006, 04:14 AM
Helios, I can still find a healthy disdain in myself for the discipline of certain others as you define it.

You are confusing the virtue of discipline with grovelling obeisance.

Die
02-20-2006, 04:20 AM
No I'm not. Self-control and temperance often find expression in grovelling obeisance.

jcs
02-20-2006, 04:47 AM
Self-control and temperance often find expression in grovelling obeisance.
Discipline ought to be obedience. Until one discovers how to do this, one remains undisciplined and weak.

Die
02-20-2006, 04:54 AM
Learning to obey is not unlike learning to command, and the most untimely among us do not wait for guarantees of success or signs of progress in approaching these ends.

Helios Panoptes
02-20-2006, 05:08 AM
No I'm not. Self-control and temperance often find expression in grovelling obeisance.

That is why justice is the the highest virtue. Others(courage, temperance, etc.) are subordinate to it because it is through it that they are realized. Any problem resulting from self control is not due to it per se, but the absence of the direction of the master virtue. In other words, if it finds an expression as a vice, it is because of a deficiency, not an excess.

edit: the content of this post is the same as when i originally made it, but it's more literate now.

Die
02-20-2006, 06:12 AM
I've always like Ambrose Bierces definition of justice in the Devils dictionary.

JUSTICE, n. A commodity which is a more or less adulterated condition
the State sells to the citizen as a reward for his allegiance, taxes
and personal service.

I don't want to get into how 'justice' in the mouths of the vast majority means little more than revenge, or collection of payment, rather I take it that by justice you mean a fairness become finality in oneself that permits no compromise.

Helios Panoptes
02-20-2006, 07:20 AM
I would agree that Bierce's definition approximates that which we now call "justice." Are you voicing your disagreement with me? Are you asking me to define "justice"? I'm really not certain...

Die
02-20-2006, 07:28 AM
I was suggesting that your conception of justice is an uncommon one.

Helios Panoptes
02-20-2006, 07:30 AM
I was suggesting that your conception of justice is an uncommon one.


I see. You are correct.

jcs
02-20-2006, 12:54 PM
I was suggesting that your conception of justice is an uncommon one.
Uncommon only to common folk, speaking about common things--but this is a philosophical discussion, so it should be quite easy to discern what is meant by 'justice.'

Die
02-20-2006, 01:48 PM
Should be? I don't doubt it, that is if you venture what you mean by it. I could swear I'm the only one who has.

:rofl:

sugartits
02-20-2006, 02:22 PM
Realize your error: read Sun and Steel by Yukio Mishima. If you're looking for a reason to take my advice: he's considered the greatest Japanese writer of the past century, and he died in a highly badass manner. But the best reason of all: he hated words, even clever words--he despised what we might call shallow truths; instead, he loved feeling. If any book was 'written in blood,' it was Sun and Steel.

How did he die?

Helios Panoptes
02-20-2006, 08:23 PM
How did he die?


On November 25, 1970, Mishima and four members of the Tatenokai under a pretext visited the commandant of the Ichigaya Camp - the Tokyo headquarters of the Eastern Command of Japan’s Self-Defense Forces. Once inside, they proceeded to barricade the office and tied the commandant to his chair. With a prepared manifesto and banner listing their demands, Mishima stepped onto the balcony to address the gathered soldiers below. His speech was intended to inspire them to stage a coup d'etat and restore the Emperor to his rightful place. He succeeded only in irritating them and was mocked and jeered. As he was unable to make himself heard, he finished his planned speech after only a few minutes. He stepped back into the commandant's office and committed seppuku. The act was to end in his ritual decapitation by Tatenokai member Masakatsu Morita. Morita, who was rumored to have been Mishima's lover, was unable to perform the decapitation properly: after several failed attempts, he allowed another Tatenokai member, Hiroyasu Koga, to finish the job. After Mishima was decapitated, Morita also attempted to commit seppuku and was beheaded by Koga.

Mishima prepared his suicide meticulously for a year and no one outside the group of handpicked Tatenokai members had any indication of what he was planning. Mishima must have known that his coup plot would never succeed and his biographer, translator, and former friend John Nathan suggests that the scenario was only a pretext for the ritual suicide that Mishima always dreamed of. Mishima made sure his affairs were in order and even had the foresight to leave money for the defense at trial of the three surviving Tatenokai members.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukio_Mishima

Die
02-21-2006, 06:20 AM
I'm not going to read him. I have serious doubts about his writing in blood/spirit.

The politically active should not find it in their sweaty hearts to offer us their literature.