holocaust revision sources

[Helios Panoptes]

Holocaust revisionism is a subject I never took an interest in, but I've decided to now. I'd like to ask some of you who have(o'reilly, dan dare, et al) to point me in the right direction; some books to look into would be nice. Thanks in advance.

[Donny the Punk]

Rofl, "point me in the right direction." Hilarious. Yes, history functions by picking the 'right direction' in advance and then reading only those sources which seek to prove it.

Keep it clean in the holiest of holies, the History section

[Helios Panoptes]

Rofl, "point me in the right direction." Hilarious. Yes, history functions by picking the 'right direction' in advance and then reading only those sources which seek to prove it.

I am familiar with the usual historical positions on the subject, much like everyone else in the western world. I would like to familiarize myself with alternative examinations and decide if they have merit.

Respond all you like, but unless you wish to make a contribution to this topic, I'll be ignoring you.

Same as above

[Dan Dare]

My recommendation would be that you first familiarise yourself with the standard historical accounts before launching into the revisionist oeuvre.

Either the single volume abridgement of Hilberg's "The Destruction of European Jewry' or Martin Gilbert's "The Holocaust" would be a good point of departure.

[1-800]

So, which one do you want?

Armenian...Native American...Polish...Jewish...Boer....Dalit...Ukranian...

[Helios Panoptes]

My recommendation would be that you first familiarise yourself with the standard historical accounts before launching into the revisionist oeuvre.


Sorry about the lack of clarity, but I have done this. I omitted the word "revision" from the initial post, although I included in the thread title.

[Dan Dare]

One of the problems with the revisionist literature is that the many of the more accessible pieces are too strident and the more effective pieces are very specialised and rather technical.

For a middle-of-the-road introduction you might want to browse the IHR and CODOH websites for articles that attract your attention.

You can download a number of full-length books from vho.org but be advised that many of these can be heavy going.

[Sulla the Dictator]

One of the problems with the revisionist literature is that the many of the more accessible pieces are too strident and the more effective pieces are very specialised and rather technical.

For a middle-of-the-road introduction you might want to browse the IHR and CODOH websites for articles that attract your attention.

You can download a number of full-length books from vho.org but be advised that many of these can be heavy going.

If you're going to start, and I think Dan Dare might agree with this, you should probably start with Jean-Claude Pressac, who learned his side of the debate from the infamous Robert Faurisson. He is, by far, the revisionist coming closest to legitimacy in academic circles.

Though, obviously I do agree with Potyondi in that it doesn't make much sense to LOOK for a reason to deny an event.

[Hugh Jorgen]

Actually this post today is a very interesting genesis and reason d'etre of the Holocaust orthodoxy.

http://thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4152

[Hugh Jorgen]

If you're going to start, and I think Dan Dare might agree with this, you should probably start with Jean-Claude Pressac, who learned his side of the debate from the infamous Robert Faurisson. He is, by far, the revisionist coming closest to legitimacy in academic circles.

Though, obviously I do agree with Potyondi in that it doesn't make much sense to LOOK for a reason to deny an event.


Sulla, you make mention of "the debate". What is your opinion on the fact that debate in many countries (ie Canada, Germany, France) is illegal?

Regarding "LOOK for a reason to deny an event" - maybe it would be best to say it is good to look to validate all institutional dogma in our society.

[Donny the Punk]

Sulla, you make mention of "the debate". What is your opinion on the fact that debate in many countries (ie Canada, Germany, France) is illegal?

Regarding "LOOK for a reason to deny an event" - maybe it would be best to say it is good to look to validate all institutional dogma in our society.
Holocaust debate is illegal in Canada? That's news to me, who's attended several seminars about the subject, and yet I find myself not in jail.

[Sulla the Dictator]

It certainly isn't illegal here in the ZOG....which strikes me as a bit odd, considering the powerful conspiracy which controls us all.

[Hugh Jorgen]

Holocaust debate is illegal in Canada? That's news to me, who's attended several seminars about the subject, and yet I find myself not in jail.

Well in Canada it is quickly labelled as a hate crime and Zundel and Keegstra faced criminal charges. Try teaching revisionism in a school or publishing any literature.

[Donny the Punk]

Well in Canada it is quickly labelled as a hate crime and Zundel and Keegstra faced criminal charges. Try teaching revisionism in a school or publishing any literature.
Funny, I recall spending an entire month in class discussing the merits/demerits of Holocaust revisionism at the UofA two years past.

Are you trying to say that Zundel was extradited for debating the Holocaust?

[Hugh Jorgen]

Funny, I recall spending an entire month in class discussing the merits/demerits of Holocaust revisionism at the UofA two years past.

Are you trying to say that Zundel was extradited for debating the Holocaust?

- de facto

[Hugh Jorgen]

It certainly isn't illegal here in the ZOG....which strikes me as a bit odd, considering the powerful conspiracy which controls us all.

You have sidestepped my question.

[Donny the Punk]

- de facto
So you would consider Nazi U.F.O.s in Antarctica part of a legitimate and serious body of historical debate?

To me, this sounds a lot more like the hate speech for which he was convicted:
"The Jews are particularly adept at seizing or insinuating themselves into strategic positions in our society where they wield power far beyond the extent of their numbers....Through us, the White majority of Europe and America, the Jewish minority have obtained their advantages, including their Israel, their Federal Reserve, their World Bank and their International Monetary Fund. In exchange for these advantages, the Jews give us -- their White hosts -- wars, depressions, inflation, unemployment, energy shortages, higher and higher taxes and air piracy. Like sheep, they expect us to go down the road with them -- all the way to the kosher slaughterhouse. We White people of America have done nothing so far which would frustrate the Jews' expectations or their ambitions of becoming the world's slavemasters."

Care to comment?

[Sulla the Dictator]

You have sidestepped my question.

I don't approve of laws against Holocaust denial. Its a silly theory, by and large, and here in the US its kept in check with examination, refutation, and ridicule. :p

[Hugh Jorgen]

So you would consider Nazi U.F.O.s in Antarctica part of a legitimate and serious body of historical debate?

To me, this sounds a lot more like the hate speech for which he was convicted:
"The Jews are particularly adept at seizing or insinuating themselves into strategic positions in our society where they wield power far beyond the extent of their numbers....Through us, the White majority of Europe and America, the Jewish minority have obtained their advantages, including their Israel, their Federal Reserve, their World Bank and their International Monetary Fund. In exchange for these advantages, the Jews give us -- their White hosts -- wars, depressions, inflation, unemployment, energy shortages, higher and higher taxes and air piracy. Like sheep, they expect us to go down the road with them -- all the way to the kosher slaughterhouse. We White people of America have done nothing so far which would frustrate the Jews' expectations or their ambitions of becoming the world's slavemasters."

Care to comment?


It's a general statement of course, but the concept of control is correct.
I think that it is likely just a coincidence that the major players of domination are jewish. It is a vehicle to carry their evil while enjoying a cover of being able to cry racial hatred to any opposition to their plan of slavemaster.

This jewish "issue" certainly has been with the world for centuries.
They historically operate as a gang of thugs but I don't think that it has much to do with the religion of Judaism. At least I hope not.

[Donny the Punk]

It's a general statement of course, but the concept of control is correct.
I think that it is likely just a coincidence that the major players of domination are jewish. It is a vehicle to carry their evil while enjoying a cover of being able to cry racial hatred to any opposition to their plan of slavemaster.

This jewish "issue" certainly has been with the world for centuries.
They historically operate as a gang of thugs but I don't think that it has much to do with the religion of Judaism. At least I hope not.
Rofl, you didn't answer the question. I don't particularly care about your views on ZOG; save it for the rest of the riff-raff here. I want to know whether you consider Nazi UFOs in Antarctica and the above racist diatribe about Jews to be instances of Holocaust debate for which Zundel was persecuted. Or was it rather his egregious race hatred that landed him in trouble with the law?

[Gorilla]

The whole rationale of holocaust denial is that the Germans were like the KKK'ers, with hatred really only held for those having a different 'chest model'. It would not surprise me at all if David Irving had his mask on (as in undercover).

Things get even stupider still, when you have some of these nits claiming the askenazim/ashkenazim are 'the nines', whilst the K and the J form a sort of 'rib alliance' against a mythical race of seventeen-ribbed creatures, 'die juden parasieten', 'the jewish parasite', etc.

There is roughly eleven million askenazim worldwide, and they're not freakazoids, but simply the European jews.

[Basil Fawlty]

Holocaust revisionism is a subject I never took an interest in, but I've decided to now. I'd like to ask some of you who have(o'reilly, dan dare, et al) to point me in the right direction; some books to look into would be nice. Thanks in advance.I would agree with what Dan has already said. Familiarity with the official account (Gilbert, Hilberg, Arad etc) is vital before launching into Revisionist studies.

Turning to Revisionist studies themselves, Arthur Butz The Hoax of the Twentieth Century (http://vho.org/GB/Books/thottc/) is still a good general overview account as is the collection of papers by various leading figures in Germar Rudolf (ed.) Dissecting the Holocaust. (http://www.codoh.com/found/found.html)

Then you can take it from there, depending on how far into it you want to go; for example Carlo Mattogno has writen a series of substantial and detailed monographs on each camp and various other topics. Robert Faurisson has written soem powerful studies on various documents that you will see regularly flourished by exterminationist historians (the rev term for the court historians).

I would also add that one should have the primary sources at hand, as much as is available online. For example, the records of the Nuremberg trials, both the main trial (IMT) and the thematic, Amercian run-trials the (NMT) as well as minor trials like the Dachau trials and so on. If you can read German I would highly recommend sending off for the Digitale Bibliothek CD-ROM (http://www.digitale-bibliothek.de/scripts/ts.dll?s=3&id=6A0348E2&mp=/art/4020/&sc=band20.htm) which contains the most complete edition of the transcripts available. The Avalon project at Yale (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/imt.htm) has quite a bit of IMT/NMT but its not complete and has an atrocious search engine.

These contain a great many of the statements and reports from which much of the "history" is still written. Its fascinating to read some of the day by day transcripts of these trials as well as the affadavits, and official reports. Its also a good lesson in how a kangaroo court operates. Personally this was one of the most powerful debunking experiences for me.

good luck!

[Hugh Jorgen]

Rofl, you didn't answer the question. I don't particularly care about your views on ZOG; save it for the rest of the riff-raff here. I want to know whether you consider Nazi UFOs in Antarctica and the above racist diatribe about Jews to be instances of Holocaust debate for which Zundel was persecuted. Or was it rather his egregious race hatred that landed him in trouble with the law?

Based on your attitude - you're not someone to whom I want to respond - you're rude and crude and a complete waste of time.

[Donny the Punk]

The truth is rude and crude, but never a waste of time. :(

[Hugh Jorgen]

The truth is rude and crude, but never a waste of time. :(

And what is your truth?

[Donny the Punk]

That Holocaust debate and revisionism (small 'r') are not illegal in Canada, and that Zundel was prosecuted for his malicious attacks on racial and religious groups.

[Hugh Jorgen]

That Holocaust debate and revisionism (small 'r') are not illegal in Canada, and that Zundel was prosecuted for his malicious attacks on racial and religious groups.

This is not my understanding - please provide your sources and references.

[cerberus]

Try teaching revisionism in a school
Teaching fiction as history does tend to undermine the object of the lesson.
Why not take a look at Prof. Deb. Lipstadt book " Denying the Holocaust - The Growing assult on Truth and memory", then look at her book " History on Trial".
You will get some insights into the "scholarly works" which may be well written but ultimately are self serving and empty.( IMO ).

As Reinhold as pointed out quite a few can be seen as free downloads from the internet and from some vanity publishers like Noontide.
( No mainstream publishers will touch these "scholarly works" with a barge pole).

[Starr]

That Holocaust debate and revisionism (small 'r') are not illegal in Canada, and that Zundel was prosecuted for his malicious attacks on racial and religious groups.

Isn't holocaust denial, in itself, seen as a malicious attack on the chosen? Sulla would say so, anyway.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Isn't holocaust denial, in itself, seen as a malicious attack on the chosen? Sulla would say so, anyway.

Well gee whiz, for someone who claims to know nothing about the Holocaust I notice Starr has plenty of opinions on it. :rolleyes:

[Starr]

Well gee whiz, for someone who claims to know nothing about the Holocaust I notice Starr has plenty of opinions on it. :rolleyes:

I said that since I do not have a great deal of interest in it, I have not spent a lot of time reading and in study of it. My opinions are generally on the religious like nature of it, how it is used, and the idea that it can never be questioned(I do find these things halfway interesting) rather then on if it happened or did not happen.

[cerberus]

My opinions are generally on the religious like nature of it, how it is used, and the idea that it can never be questioned
Questioning something is fine but inventing an alternative view of history based on rumour what you might think might happened- based on lies and conspiracy theory is quite different.
The view of "religion" is a sound bite which deflects attention- nothing more.
Superficial waffle.

[A. Radek]

and the idea that it can never be questioned(I do find these things halfway interesting) rather then on if it happened or did not happen.

Who says it can't be questioned? Revisionism and Denial are not equivalent; one is legitimate scholarship, the other is Nazi inspired propoganda. Nobody can name a single legitimate revisionist who has been prosecuted for Holocaust Denial.

[A. Radek]

Questioning something is fine but inventing an alternative view of history based on rumour what you might think might happened- based on lies and conspiracy theory is quite different.
The view of "religion" is a sound bite which deflects attention- nothing more.
Superficial waffle.

True. But without the Vast Jewish Conspiracy fallacy, a lot of people here would have nothing to say. Of course, once 'Da Joos' and 'Da Mamzers' are gone, they'll start in on who's the whitest, are the Irish white, etc. It's a never ending fetish for sociopaths and psychopaths. It can't even be considered a racist mindset, since it would not stop with a 'Jewish Solution', a black solution', a Mestizo Solution', etc.; it would just keep rolling along to the next group, and then the next, and then the next ...

[cerberus]

I don't have any strong feeling s for Jewish people one way or the other.
On one hand I have to say that they don't seem to have fully learned from their own history - but they would not be unique in that sense.
The conspiracy which is attached to Jews and the Holocaust is amazing- nothing short of "007".
i see that the conspircay theory grows even as we speak on Phora = Irving is now being thought of as an agent of "ZOG"
Bit daft when you think of it , why did he not just obey orders at his libel case , especially with the Jewish dipolmats and their armed guards there to force the issue.