Deconstucting Mattogno: How Deniers Distort Evidence

[A. Radek]

Conclusion

In a review of Deborah Lipstadt's Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory, Mattogno was critical because she argued that gas tight doors were incompatible with a shower facility. Mattogno's criticism was based on a document he found in the Auschwitz Archives. He asked: " If a gas tight door and a shower facility are "absolutely incompatible" then why did the Auschwitz Zentralbauleitung [Central Construction Agency] on 13 November 1942 order '2 100/200 gas-tight doors for the sauna' of the disinfestation installation BW 5a?"96 BW 5a was a disinfestation facility in the Birkenau area of Auschwitz.

The document he cited is a work order, which I have obtained. It states: "For: Delousing Barrack. The following work is to be done: The creation of two steel gas proof doors for the sauna."97 Mattogno was attempting to show that gas tight doors would not be incompatible in a shower facility. But why would gas tight doors be needed in a shower facility unless prisoners were being gassed? The sauna is a reference to delousing barracks BW 5a which contained legitimate prisoner shower facilities and rooms where clothing was deloused with Zyklon B. Any logical person reading this document would realize that the gas tight doors were for that portion of the sauna used to disinfest clothing, not for the shower facilities. If Mattogno's explanation of this document is to be believed, then he has demonstrated that prisoners were gassed in the shower facilities of the sauna because the work order specifically refers to the type of gas tight doors which were used in the clothing disinfestation facility!

Mattogno may have believed that because the word sauna was used the argument could be made that it referred to the shower portion. But in fact the building known as the Central Sauna -- which began operation in December 1943 -- had legitimate shower facilities and places where clothing was disinfested. Not even Mattogno has claimed that the prisoner shower facilities of the Central Sauna had gas tight doors. Moreover, Lipstadt's broader point was that the document she was referring to had nothing to with a sauna, but was a reference to the installation of phony showers in the morgue of Krema III. What would these showers and gas tight doors be doing in a morgue?

Mattogno's approach to the document found shows that he has a mindset which will allow him to draw any absurd conclusion from information he examines as long it fits his preconceived notion that there were no homicidal gassings. In this respect his methodology is very similar to David Irving -- who I examine in a separate chapter in my book.

One of the interesting factors to note in Mattogno's reply to my essay is that he never addressed the demographics of Hungarian Jewry. I was able to show that at least 80% -- and the real number is 90% -- of the 437,000 Hungarian Jews who were deported from mid May to mid July 1944 disappeared and that their destination was Auschwitz. Mattogno -- and indeed the whole denier movement -- could easily prove their case of no genocide by simply producing some evidence that these Jews were somewhere other than Auschwitz. Like all deniers, Mattogno cannot actually explain what happened to the Jews who came under German control.

In the recent tape about Mattogno's 40 points, mentioned earlier, it is noted that he has carried out research in many European countries and examined 150,000 pages of documents. I am sure that this is accurate. I also know that his archival research goes back to the 1980s. Yet for all of this research he can produce no evidence as to what happened to these Jews. The same goes for David Irving. Seen in its totality, this is a stunning lack of achievement for the denier cause and indeed discredits all of their arguments.

This is the reason that Mattogno must attempt to make a case about ovens. He has stated: "Revisionism has attempted to apply its criticism to the Holocaust on a technical level."98 Indeed, there is no place left for deniers to go since they cannot produce any evidence about what actually happened to the European Jews of World War II if they were not murdered. Therefore, why not argue about oven efficiency and the like? I spend the first four chapters of my book on the issue of demographics in Holocaust denial.

I pointed out in the body disposal study that since Mattogno has admitted to outdoor burnings at Auschwitz, even if all of his false theories on oven limitations are correct they are irrelevant because open air burnings were not subject to any restrictions that might be imposed on the ovens. Mattogno stayed away from answering that point. However, I have been able show that none of his major theories about Auschwitz and the ovens can withstand critical scrutiny. The simple fact is that the evidence he has proffered from many years of research does not support any of his major conclusions. Mattogno cannot make any of his theories fit into the Procrustean bed he has made for them. Once again, this is something he shares in common with David Irving when it comes to the Holocaust.

Over the years Mattogno has emerged as the top gun of Holocaust denial. His research is far more sophisticated than Robert Faurisson's and method of argumentation and writing ability far superior to Arthur Butz. However, look beneath the veneer and one will see the same bag of tricks employed by all deniers going back to Paul Rassinier -- the godfather of modern Holocaust denial -- and his successors: the absurd conspiracy theories of forgery and evidence manipulation when there are no longer any implausible rationalizations, and the stretching of some evidence and ignoring of other evidence. Mattogno assures us that he has more works on the way, so we can look forward to the familiar pattern. However, in the final analysis, he will be no more successful than in the past.

bold added by me.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/response-to-mattogno/

The discerning reader may note how this pattern is immitated throughout the Denier cult. This is no 'different interpretation or philosophy of history', it's deliberate lying.

[Dan Dare]

CARLO MATTOGNO

Supplementary Response to John C. Zimmerman on his
"BODY DISPOSAL AT AUSCHWITZ"
Edited and copyrighted © MM by Russ Granata

http://www.russgranata.com

Introduction
In October 1999 John C. Zimmerman, "Associate Professor University of Nevada, Las Vegas", published on his website the article, "Body Disposal at Auschwitz: The End of the Holocaust Denial."1

Zimmerman deluded himself in thinking that he produced the definitive (!) refutation of my study on the crematoria of Auschwitz. Since nearly all his objections have been already refuted in my work "I forni crematori di Auschwitz: Studio storico tecnico, con la collaborazione del dott. Ing. Franco Deana" (which was in the process of being printed 2), I limited my response to my "Preliminary Observations" in order not to lose too much time in answering his conjectures which were essentially based on ignorance of historical and technical matters as well as deception. But Zimmerman was mistaken if he thought I had no arguments to refute him.

He returned to the attack with bold arrogance in another verbose article he calls "My Response to Carlo Mattogno," 3 which is worth even less than its predecessor.

In this response our professor has transcended all limits of propriety, which is why I shall devote all the time to it which his impudence merits. I shall sink his arguments a little more, without making a compendium of my above work where I give all references not mentioned in this present article.

...

http://vho.org/GB/c/CM/Risposta-new-eng.html

[A. Radek]

Ah, thanks for providing even more confirmation of what I bolded in the original excerpt.:rofl:

[Dan Dare]

Not at all, members can now make their own assessment.

Do you have any further follow-up from Zimmermann, btw?

[wintermute]

Deconstucting Mattogno: How Deniers Distort Evidence

I think that Magneto's survival of the internment camps gives the lie them being extermination camps of any kind. If the Nazis intended to kill their internees (which could have been done in three months by simply witholding food) then how comes it that our freedom is now threatened by Magneto and his fellow mutants? Hmmm?

WM

http://www.livrariaexotica.com.br/Imagens%20arquivo/XM%202/x%20m2%20magneto%20pose.jpg

[A. Radek]

Not at all, members can now make their own assessment.

Do you have any further follow-up from Zimmermann, btw?

For the same reasons nobody wastes time refuting thinker's endless bombardment of spam line by line, just because he plays 'I Touched You Last!' over and over again. Mattogno is merely spamming with bullshit in his 'response to Zimmeran's Response'. He has no credibility and therefore doesn't rate an ongoing tit for tat pissing contest on the part of Zimmerman.

You and Basil should know the feeling.

How about it, Dan? Care to tell us where all those Jews went?

[Nordicist]

Quick comment:

It's really quite a match, in one corner we have a few, a handful of fearless scholars who are hounded, persecuted, beaten, jailed, fined, etc. doing research and writing at great personal and professional risk. In the other corner we have the gigantic, well-funded with gazillions of dollars Holocau$t Industry with unlimited resources cranking out holocau$t propoganda from Semitic Hollywood, media, and conformist toadies in the academe...on an almost daily basis. Somehow even those few voices must be exterminated, silenced...which just shows the total moral and intellectual bankrupty and fundamental dishonesty of the holocau$t peddlars.

Free your mind, visit The Revisionist Forum:

http://www.yourforum.org/revforum/index.php

[Dan Dare]

For the same reasons nobody wastes time refuting thinker's endless bombardment of spam line by line, just because he plays 'I Touched You Last!' over and over again. ...?

I'm quite happy to put all the available facts before the audience and let them judge for themselves.

But that concept appears to quite troubling for you Obie. Why is that?

[A. Radek]

I think that Magneto's survival of the internment camps gives the lie them being extermination camps of any kind.

Who is Magneto?

If the Nazis intended to kill their internees (which could have been done in three months by simply witholding food) then how comes it that our freedom is now threatened by Magneto and his fellow mutants? Hmmm?

Logistics. Camps made the looting easier and more systematic. Also the need for slave labor needed some means of sorting out who they could use and who they couldn't. Many were indeed starved. Death camps speeded up the process, along with making it easier to hide what they were doing. After word got out about the camps, things like the Warsaw ghetto uprising made the task harder. You're assuming all Germans themselves condoned mass murder; they didn't, and keeping it out of the public eye was necessary both for maintaining order in the conquered territories and preventing later ugly problems with regular Army witnesses.

The rest of your post makes no sense. Whose freedom is threatened? No revisionist has ever been jailed for revising anything related to the Holocaust.

[A. Radek]

I'm quite happy to put all the available facts before the audience and let them judge for themselves.

But that concept appears to quite troubling for you Obie. Why is that?

Who says I'm 'troubled'? I said thanks for posting Mattogno's spam. Apparently you have trouble grasping simple concepts like that. Paranoid, are you? Such a knee jerk reaction.

[Kodos]

Logistics. Camps made the looting easier and more systematic. Also the need for slave labor needed some means of sorting out who they could use and who they couldn't. Many were indeed starved. Death camps speeded up the process, along with making it easier to hide what they were doing. After word got out about the camps, things like the Warsaw ghetto uprising made the task harder. You're assuming all Germans themselves condoned mass murder; they didn't, and keeping it out of the public eye was necessary both for maintaining order in the conquered territories and preventing later ugly problems with regular Army witnesses.

The rest of your post makes no sense. Whose freedom is threatened? No revisionist has ever been jailed for revising anything related to the Holocaust.

He is referencing "X-Men"( a comic book, then a cartoon, then a movie) Oberon.

[A. Radek]

Logistics. Camps made the looting easier and more systematic. Also the need for slave labor needed some means of sorting out who they could use and who they couldn't. Many were indeed starved. Death camps speeded up the process, along with making it easier to hide what they were doing. After word got out about the camps, things like the Warsaw ghetto uprising made the task harder. You're assuming all Germans themselves condoned mass murder; they didn't, and keeping it out of the public eye was necessary both for maintaining order in the conquered territories and preventing later ugly problems with regular Army witnesses.

The rest of your post makes no sense. Whose freedom is threatened? No revisionist has ever been jailed for revising anything related to the Holocaust.

He is referencing "X-Men"( a comic book, then a cartoon, then a movie) Oberon.

Ah. Thanks. I don't know the guy, and I don't read comics.

[Trojan]

Quick comment:

It's really quite a match, in one corner we have a few, a handful of fearless scholars who are hounded, persecuted, beaten, jailed, fined, etc. doing research and writing at great personal and professional risk. In the other corner we have the gigantic, well-funded with gazillions of dollars Holocau$t Industry with unlimited resources cranking out holocau$t propoganda from Semitic Hollywood, media, and conformist toadies in the academe...on an almost daily basis. Somehow even those few voices must be exterminated, silenced...which just shows the total moral and intellectual bankrupty and fundamental dishonesty of the holocau$t peddlars.

Free your mind, visit The Revisionist Forum:

http://www.yourforum.org/revforum/index.php
:rofl: :rofl:

Damn - what a line, free your mind and join the most censored forum on the web, were no dissenting view is allowed without prior approval of the moderator (good old Hannover).

Tell Johnnie we said hey!!

[Nordicist]

I see you got spanked again by Hannover, sour grapes. But I'll tell him you said hi. :rofl: :rofl:

[Nordicist]

A real yawner. Dishonest Zimmerman has been spanked repeatedly.
See:

Zimmerman's cremation deceptions exposed by Mattogno
http://revforum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=1951

Zimmerman of 'holocaust' Hist. Proj. routed on cremations
http://revforum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=543

'holocaust' Hist. Project's Zimmerman - more deception
http://revforum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=544

Mattogno: The Deportation of Hungarian Jews
http://revforum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=287

- Hannover

[Nordicist]

I encourage everyone to do what I just did and run a search on Trojan at The Revisionist Forum decide for yourself how the whiny Trojan was treated on The Revisionist Forum.

http://www.yourforum.org/revforum/search.php?mode=results

[Daniel Shays]

Since when are Jews allowed to post here? :confused:


No revisionist has ever been jailed for revising anything related to the Holocaust.

WTF is this nonsense?

[A. Radek]

Since when are Jews allowed to post here? :confused:



WTF is this nonsense?

The Phora is a ZOG operation. See Glenn Miller for details.

I encourage all kooks, crackpots, and Weirdness Magnets to do as NordicCyst suggests, and get your info from his links. Send Glenn Miller some freakin money as well. These actions will only inhance your Whiteness and intellect. I reccomend heavy drinking as a concurrent activity.

[Trojan]

I see you got spanked again by Hannover, sour grapes. But I'll tell him you said hi. :rofl: :rofl:

Hey b*tch, the only time Hannover can spank anyone is if he delete's his opponets posts.

Your hero - pink smoothy himself

http://www.geocities.com/jonniehargis/

(and no, I did not create the site, but I do love it nonetheless)

[cerberus]

Free your mind, visit The Revisionist Forum:

You mean close your mind , lose your marbles or get your posts deleted.:rolleyes:

Question remains , where did all the people go ?
All those infants , elderly mene , elderly woemen , nursing mothers , disabled people where did they go ?

[cerberus]

Since when are Jews allowed to post here?
You have something against Jews ?
Or is this the worst insult or negative ststement which you can conjure up ?
Why should a Jew not be allowed to post here , is it not the open debate which you crave and demand ?

I am reading Lipstadt's books at the moment , she has made more than a few holes in a number of "scholarly studies".
( That particular catch phrase does sound like something from "Tom Brown's School Days" , pompus and self serving).

[Trojan]

Since when are Jews allowed to post here? :confused:



WTF is this nonsense?

This isn't Storm Front or TRF.

[Sulla the Dictator]

I see you got spanked again by Hannover, sour grapes. But I'll tell him you said hi. :rofl: :rofl:

LOL Bollocks. When I tried to go over there only 1 in 5 of my posts ever made it to the board after Hannover deleted all counterpoints.

[Crowley]

Question remains , where did all the people go ?
All those infants , elderly mene , elderly woemen , nursing mothers , disabled people where did they go ?

Some came to America, some to Israel, some were murdered, some died of old age, some died of disease.

Where did all those weak members of Dresden society go?

[Trojan]

Where did all those weak members of Dresden society go?

Why don't you start a special thread on Dresden and we can tell you how flawed the revisionists theory is on this item?

[Crowley]

Why don't you start a special thread on Dresden and we can tell you how flawed the revisionists theory is on this item?

Nobody died in Dresden?

[Trojan]

Nobody died in Dresden?

Not the 350,000 claimed by Hitler appoligists'.

[Crowley]

Not the 350,000 claimed by Hitler appoligists'.

It is spelled apologist.

Normally in a debate the other side is allowed to make their own points, otherwise you can dispense with an opponent and argue with yourself.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Where did all those weak members of Dresden society go?

Some went to other German cities. Some went west. Some went south. Some were swept up in the wake of German displaced persons.

Oh, I have no doubt a couple dozen or even a few hundred might have died at Dresden. But not the ridiculous figures cited in the Dresden Hoax. :p

[A. Radek]

The mythical Irish Potato Famine has to be my favorite hoax. The whole idea is ridiculous on the face of it.

[A. Radek]

Some went to other German cities. Some went west. Some went south. Some were swept up in the wake of German displaced persons.

Oh, I have no doubt a couple dozen or even a few hundred might have died at Dresden. But not the ridiculous figures cited in the Dresden Hoax. :p

We'd be able to find the graves if it were really true. We need an Iranian archeological team to go dig up Dresden, just to settle this once and for all.

[Crowley]

Some went to other German cities. Some went west. Some went south. Some were swept up in the wake of German displaced persons.

Oh, I have no doubt a couple dozen or even a few hundred might have died at Dresden. But not the ridiculous figures cited in the Dresden Hoax. :p

In point of fact your side did challenge our Dresden figures and you were right, they were exaggerated. Just as your 6 million figure is an exaggeration. One crucial difference is we don't have a tiny blood and soil colony, squatting on stolen Arab land, surrounded by millions of fanatical Arabs, desperately needing our exaggerations to be "true", for the sake of milking the suckers back "home" of lucre and fighting men.

[Trojan]

In point of fact your side did challenge our Dresden figures and you were right, they were exaggerated. Just as your 6 million figure is an exaggeration. One crucial difference is we don't have a tiny blood and soil colony, squatting on stolen Arab land, surrounded by millions of fanatical Arabs, desperately needing our exaggerations to be "true", for the sake of milking the suckers back "home" of lucre and fighting men.

and now we see your true colors ... enough said

[Sulla the Dictator]

In point of fact your side did challenge our Dresden figures and you were right, they were exaggerated.


Yep. Then save your tears.


Just as your 6 million figure is an exaggeration.


Wrong.

[Nordicist]

Hey b*tch,

"Hey bitch"? The is the type of vulgarity and stupidity you brought to The Revisionist Forum; and now you whine that your posts got deleted?

Your hero - pink smoothy himself

That's very mature. Your side is very good at stunts like this. It's similar to what Jew Mathis tried to do, thinking that John Hargis is Hannover (for which there's no evidence) he spammed his name and address and place of work and even harassed him at work.

People like you and Mathis resort to violence when they've run out of arguments.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/France/Faurisson/beaten180989.html

[Nordicist]

LOL Bollocks. When I tried to go over there only 1 in 5 of my posts ever made it to the board after Hannover deleted all counterpoints.

Sulla the Dictator is a compulsive liar. I also got some posts deleted last week because I didn't follow guidelines. So did haldan, so did other other Revisionists.

Here's what happened:

Goethe wrote:
Perhaps Sulla cares to debate here on what Renk really does, expose the stupidity of statements from people like Mueller & Tauber. But no, instead, Sulla chooses to ignore Renk's mangling of those liars.

Sulla:That doesn't sound too promising. I can't seem to get more than 1 out of 3 posts made visible NOW, while talking about the article that Hannover posted. I can't see debating more complicated issues at the moment. Perhaps that will change.

Moderator: you've posted remarks which assume that Hannover edited Renk's work. He has said he has not and has indicated he's awaiting a response from Renk. Please, let's not make such accusations.

If you wish to debate the veracity of Muller, Tauber, and others mentioned by Renk, then please do. So far you have avoided them, as Goethe has pointed out. There are existing threads on them, you are also encouraged to start new ones. We welcome your views in that regard.
Thanks, Moderator1

http://www.yourforum.org/revforum/viewtopic.php?t=611&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

[Sulla the Dictator]

Ah, so you believe these claims on behalf of the moderator team, Nordicist?

[Sulla the Dictator]

We'd be able to find the graves if it were really true. We need an Iranian archeological team to go dig up Dresden, just to settle this once and for all.

Did you know that one of the charges leveled in the Dresden Hoax was that the fires liquified people into pools of flesh?

[ironweed]

The mythical Irish Potato Famine has to be my favorite hoax. The whole idea is ridiculous on the face of it.

Beware the Hibernian Occupational Government (HOG).


http://www.revisionism.nl/Potato/The-Mad-Revisionist.htm

By exaggerating the damage done by one silly little crop fungus to monumental proportions, they were able to orchestrate an Irish diaspora, thus securing a foothold in North America that eventually locked in a huge voting bloc for their master the Pope. EoE agents in the diaspora reorganized themselves into the Hibernian Occupational Government (HOG), which now controls the Irish vote in the United States. This is the very same voting bloc that elected such HOG puppets as John F. Kennedy and Ronald Reagan, who represent the communist and capitalist extremes that the Irish dominate. This is the same voting bloc that will do whatever its twin masters Dublin and Vatican City tell it to do.

[Trojan]

Hey b*tch,

"Hey bitch"? The is the type of vulgarity and stupidity you brought to The Revisionist Forum; and now you whine that your posts got deleted?

Your hero - pink smoothy himself

That's very mature. Your side is very good at stunts like this. It's similar to what Jew Mathis tried to do, thinking that John Hargis is Hannover (for which there's no evidence) he spammed his name and address and place of work and even harassed him at work.

People like you and Mathis resort to violence when they've run out of arguments.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/France/Faurisson/beaten180989.html

Give me one instance in which I or Mathis resorted to violence.

And there is one hell of a lot of evidence Hargis is Hannover - drop the argument - you'll lose.

[hERETIC]

Deconstucting Mattogno: How Deniers Distort Evidence

Deconstructing Mattogno? Are you serious? None has done that. He is a monster, he is terrible, he doesn't make misstakes.

The most prestigious among us revs not currently in jail.

[Fade the Butcher]

Ah, so you believe these claims on behalf of the moderator team, Nordicist?

Did you accept Hannover's challenge?

[Trojan]

Sulla the Dictator is a compulsive liar. I also got some posts deleted last week because I didn't follow guidelines. So did haldan, so did other other Revisionists.

http://www.yourforum.org/revforum/viewtopic.php?t=611&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

What's your handle at TRF?

Ask Hannover why he has to cower behind a shield, why not answer his critics and debate on a forum the he does not control?

Ask for a list of posters that are banned - why does he not publish a list like Axis History Forum?

(ps: you know damn well Hannover will NEVER leave the confines of his little circle jerk)

[Fade the Butcher]

I would like to see Hannover posting here at The Phora. I am sure such a formal debate could be arranged.

[Dan Dare]

Did you accept Hannover's challenge?

What a cruel jibe. Don't you know Sulla has more than enough on his plate at the moment.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Did you accept Hannover's challenge?

Here's an example of one of the posts that was deleted. One of many posts that were deleted, in fact.

Originally Posted by Hannover

I did not alter the statement, I reproduced it the way Brian sent it to me after the CODOH text was posted. Brian & I are on good terms, we communicate with each other regularily.



So he sent you a different version of the text via e-mail after the original was posted?



He evidently saw need to clarify what he said. Apparently he doesn't really buy into the 'millions' bit, but didn't care to debate it in the letters [herein] to Browning and wanted subsequent readers to know that. In fact, as one can see, they did not specifically talk total numbers.



If he does not question that millions of Jews were killed in the Holocaust, his exchange with Browning takes on a different tone. Browning begins by discussing Soviet figures with someone who suggests that they're of like minds on the issue. Upon realizing that he is, in fact, discussing the issue with someone who does not accept that premise, it makes more sense that he is miffed.

When you add [herein] in the context of their discussion, it sounds as though Renk and Browning begin the discussion with mutual understanding about where the other stands. That is apparently not the case.

Moreover, it doesn't seem wise to add things to a document that is supposed to be a reproduction of an actual conversation regarding Soviet fabrication and tampering. A bit ironic, no?



And what's clear when reading his debunking of the storyline, there is no reason to accept that Renk believes in the silly 'millions'.



Well, except that he said he didn't question that millions of Jews were killed in the Holocaust. :P



That's my view at this point, I'll double check with Brian for you.



Thanks.

[Sulla the Dictator]

The revisionist form is for lackwits, to be quite frank. Hannover posts something, you have one post to argue against it, Hannover's reply is considered a statement of fact, and the mods delete your rebuttal because 'the issue has been dealt with, now address Hannover's other points'.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Did you accept Hannover's challenge?

I couldn't. I can't post there. They auto-delete. And there is no PM access. And I'm not posting more than a paragraph on a site where only 1 in 5 posts makes it to the board.

[Trojan]

The revisionist form is for lackwits, to be quite frank. Hannover posts something, you have one post to argue against it, Hannover's reply is considered a statement of fact, and the mods delete your rebuttal because 'the issue has been dealt with, now address Hannover's other points'.

Should read "Hannover, wearing his moderator's hat, deletes your rebuttal"

[achtung circus]

Should read "Hannover, wearing his moderator's hat, deletes your rebuttal"


Hey, Bro':cool:

[eggheadbanga]

Deconstructing Mattogno? Are you serious? None has done that. He is a monster, he is terrible, he doesn't make misstakes.

The most prestigious among us revs not currently in jail.

I feel sorry for revisionism, if the best they have to offer is Mattogno. Not a single book other than about the camps. It's like 'Goodbye Lenin' or something, they don't realise the world has moved on.

[Dan Dare]

What are your thoughts about Hilberg, Arad, van Pelt, Lipstadt, Reitlinger, Steiner, Rueckerl and Pressac?

Their oeuvres seem to be somewhat constrained as well.

Perhaps Debbie should think about branching out too, "A Hundred Ways to Have Fun with a Gefilte Fisch" or something similar. Maybe.

[eggheadbanga]

What are your thoughts about Hilberg, Arad, van Pelt, Lipstadt, Reitlinger, Steiner, Rueckerl and Pressac?

Their oeuvres seem to be somewhat constrained as well.

Perhaps Debbie should think about branching out too, "A Hundred Ways to Have Fun with a Gefilte Fisch" or something similar. Maybe.

Well, Lipstadt wrote about US reactions to the news of the murder of the Jews, before she wrote about denial. Now she's a cultural commentator no different to Novick or Finkelstein, just with a different angle.

Mattogno is the stunted-dwarf mirror-image of van Pelt and Pressac, ie it's all one big camp-fest circle-jerk.

Rueckerl was to my knowledge a prosecutor. Presumably he prosecuted cases other than those about Aktion Reinhard, but I guess he didn't write books about them.

Arad, Reitlinger and Hilberg all wrote or write extensively about prewar persecution, deportations, expropriation, shootings, and different countries as well as the camps. So they're instantly broader than the others. Arad has just written a two volume history of the murder of Soviet Jews, alas still in Hebrew.

[Dan Dare]

Well, Lipstadt wrote about US reactions to the news of the murder of the Jews, before she wrote about denial. Now she's a cultural commentator no different to Novick or Finkelstein, just with a different angle.

Weren't you a little miffed in the other thread that I had implied that Debbie was not a real historian?

Now you seem to be agreeing. That's nice.

[eggheadbanga]

Weren't you a little miffed in the other thread that I had implied that Debbie was not a real historian?

Now you seem to be agreeing. That's nice.

I only just got here, I don't remember being miffed in another thread.

Deborah Lipstadt's work Beyond Belief is to abuse a phrase Real History about the war, albeit on an indirect topic to The Events everyone seems so fussed about. Her work on denial is contemporary cultural history, dealing semi-entertainingly with a bunch of Intelligent Designers and their whacko ways.:D

I'm still waiting for the really fun book about denial, it's yet to be written. Perhaps we have to wait until it's all played out so we can laugh even harder.