Ali was overrated.

[Joe McCarthy]

I hold that 'The Greatest' was a good, but highly overrated fighter who is highly praised due to political reasons. I'm prepared to defend this position with specifics if need be.

[Jimbo Gomez]

He'd whoop your amateur ass Joe.

[Kodos]

I hold that 'The Greatest' was a good, but highly overrated fighter who is highly praised due to political reasons. I'm prepared to defend this position with specifics if need be.

He was probably had the best speed/agility of any heavyweight Ive ever seen.

The most endurance was Marciano.

Tyson (before Cus died and he went to jail) had the most punching power (by an order of magnitude) and probably would at that time have beaten both of them. Marciano's technique of slugging it out and simply being so tough that he could take way more punishment then the other guy would have likely led to a short match. Ali could win if he fought a virtuso stick and move match.

[Keystone]

No way Ali was overrated. Great, great boxer with the fastest hands of any heavyweight. I don't do fantasy fight projections anymore. You have to judge fighters on their actual careers.

[il ragno]

He was probably had the best speed/agility of any heavyweight Ive ever seen.

The most endurance was Marciano.

Tyson (before Cus died and he went to jail) had the most punching power (by an order of magnitude) and probably would at that time have beaten both of them. Marciano's technique of slugging it out and simply being so tough that he could take way more punishment then the other guy would have likely led to a short match. Ali could win if he fought a virtuso stick and move match.

Tyson was all front and no back, even with d'Amato. His style of all-out assault for the first three rounds, matched with his "fearsome" hype, usually psyched out the tomato-cans he fattened up on early into defeating themselves, but I noticed early on, that like most nogs, he did not like getting hit in the mouth. Particularly from someone who'd just withstood the all-out assault, it changed his whole demeanor - unnerved him, and made him timid. Like most nigger bullies. I saw it with both Razor Ruddiuck fights, against Douglas, etc....long before the matches with Holyfield (by the time he was fighting Holyfield he was shot, he could never have beaten him).

[Sulla the Dictator]

I hold that 'The Greatest' was a good, but highly overrated fighter who is highly praised due to political reasons. I'm prepared to defend this position with specifics if need be.


Ali was very fast. And I will also say that he was a pretty smart fighter, though his politics were repulsive.

I don't know, but I've always liked George Foreman.

[Joe McCarthy]

He was probably had the best speed/agility of any heavyweight Ive ever seen.

The most endurance was Marciano.

Tyson (before Cus died and he went to jail) had the most punching power (by an order of magnitude) and probably would at that time have beaten both of them. Marciano's technique of slugging it out and simply being so tough that he could take way more punishment then the other guy would have likely led to a short match. Ali could win if he fought a virtuso stick and move match.

Imo, Johnson surpassed Ali in handspeed. Footwork is more debatable but Gene Tunney or Jersey Joe Walcott were probably a match. Of course, I'm speaking of the pre-draft Ali. In the 70's he doesn't rate.

[Joe McCarthy]

No way Ali was overrated. Great, great boxer with the fastest hands of any heavyweight. I don't do fantasy fight projections anymore. You have to judge fighters on their actual careers.

I'm judging him on his actual career. The fact is that he won the title dubiously in what was possibly a fixed fight, and his first defense was certainly fixed (I'm of course referring to the Liston fights). He also benefitted from several gift decisions as champion in the 70's. Had the judges not stumbled over their seeing eye dogs in the Young and Shavers fights, particularly, Ali's recognition would be markedly diminished.

[Joe McCarthy]

Ali was very fast. And I will also say that he was a pretty smart fighter, though his politics were repulsive.

I don't know, but I've always liked George Foreman.

His politics explains the adulation heaped upon him. He was a good fighter, but not that good.

[Vasily Zaitsev]

Ali was very fast. And I will also say that he was a pretty smart fighter, though his politics were repulsive.

I don't know, but I've always liked George Foreman.

Sulla, the above is unclearly written.

Did you mean to say that he fought smart and just added the remark about his politics as an unrelated thought or were you commenting on his intellect and noting that you were not factoring his politics into your judgement thereof?

If the former; meh. Not worth a response. If the latter; you've been fooled by a key element of the Ali mythology.

Many of those close to him have been quite candid about how stupid he was even prior to the punches and years catching up to him. It was apparently very important to be the last person to speak to him before he went in front of reporters because what he heard most recently on a subject was what he would repeat into their microphones.

[Joe McCarthy]

Sulla, the above is unclearly written.

Did you mean to say that he fought smart and just added the remark about his politics as an unrelated thought or were you commenting on his intellect and noting that you were not factoring his politics into your judgement thereof?

If the former; meh. Not worth a response. If the latter; you've been fooled by a key element of the Ali mythology.

Many of those close to him have been quite candid about how stupid he was even prior to the punches and years catching up to him. It was apparently very important to be the last person to speak to him before he went in front of reporters because what he heard most recently on a subject was what he would repeat into their microphones.

Ali had excellent ring generalship, but he was far from 'smart'. I've met fighters who were very quick thinkers in the ring, yet couldn't utter a coherent sentence.

[oki]

Most athletes of the past are overrated for nostalgic reasons. This includes most sports not just boxing. The only exception I can think of at this moment if Michael Jordon. Ali in his prime would not have lasted more than 5 rounds with Tyson during his prime.

[Joe McCarthy]

I personally think Ali would have made Tyson look like a buffoon. I also disagree that most athletes are overrated, for nostalgic or other reasons. Ali is pretty unique in this regard.

[calvin]

I agree with Joe McCarthy's analysis of Ali. Ali was a great heavyweight champion, but not the greatest. There is no doubt that liberal negrophillia and general self-righteous posturing are responsible for Ali's stellar reputation. There is also no doubt that the fashionable contempt for all things white is responsible for the fact that Marciano is unjustly low on the radar when discussing who was the greatest. It's also somewhat disgusting that the percieved view of the present boxing situation is that it is in a crisis. What's in a crisis is the myth of the Black uberathlete. A crisis in boxing that has arisen coterminously with a flood of Eastern European fighters who are belting the hell out of American Blacks.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Sulla, the above is unclearly written.

Did you mean to say that he fought smart and just added the remark about his politics as an unrelated thought or were you commenting on his intellect and noting that you were not factoring his politics into your judgement thereof?


I meant that he fought smart, for his time. I like fast heavyweights.

[cerberus]

Ali was no fool , he knew how to fight before he got into the ring and when he was there.

I agree looking back does have its disadvantages it is hard to compare the past with the present interms of sporting ability but Ali was quite unique he was much more than a boxer.

Could he have beaten some of todays fighters , I have no doubt he would have worn them down - that is what he did best he wore the other guy down and then did just enough to win .

[LarryMahan]

Tyson was all front and no back, even with d'Amato. His style of all-out assault for the first three rounds, matched with his "fearsome" hype, usually psyched out the tomato-cans he fattened up on early into defeating themselves, but I noticed early on, that like most nogs, he did not like getting hit in the mouth. Particularly from someone who'd just withstood the all-out assault, it changed his whole demeanor - unnerved him, and made him timid. Like most nigger bullies. I saw it with both Razor Ruddiuck fights, against Douglas, etc....long before the matches with Holyfield (by the time he was fighting Holyfield he was shot, he could never have beaten him).

I just finished reading boxing trainer Teddy Atlas's book (Tyson's one time Trainer and even pulled a gun on tyson and hates him to this day. Great book highly recommend it) and he talks about how when Tyson was an amatuer and tearing through everybody he ran into a white kid from Scranton who Tyson kept knocking down but the kid kept getting up and giving back. Stories like that make me mad that more white parents never put there kids into boxing. Atlas says that took so much spirit out of Tyson that he had to warn Tyson not to quit. Like the matches with ruddock and douglas, Mitch Green refused to be intimidated by tyson as well and some think was the first to kinda lay the blueprint to beat tyson. But yeah like I said I reccomend that Teddy Atlas book he has some of stories about confrontation with Nogs in Staten Island. Kind of a throwback when white men had some balls.

As far Ali I would say he was the fastest heavyweight ive seen and I don't think he was overrated although there were some fights that went his way that should'nt, his fight with Jimmy Young in particular

[Joe McCarthy]

I just finished reading boxing trainer Teddy Atlas's book (Tyson's one time Trainer and even pulled a gun on tyson and hates him to this day. Great book highly recommend it) and he talks about how when Tyson was an amatuer and tearing through everybody he ran into a white kid from Scranton who Tyson kept knocking down but the kid kept getting up and giving back. Stories like that make me mad that more white parents never put there kids into boxing. Atlas says that took so much spirit out of Tyson that he had to warn Tyson not to quit. Like the matches with ruddock and douglas, Mitch Green refused to be intimidated by tyson as well and some think was the first to kinda lay the blueprint to beat tyson. But yeah like I said I reccomend that Teddy Atlas book he has some of stories about confrontation with Nogs in Staten Island. Kind of a throwback when white men had some balls.

As far Ali I would say he was the fastest heavyweight ive seen and I don't think he was overrated although there were some fights that went his way that should'nt, his fight with Jimmy Young in particular

I see an internal inconsistency in both believing Ali was not overrated yet thinking that he was given a gift decision against a trialhorse like Jimmy Young.

[Contra Mundum]

Ali had what all great champions need, speed, chin and heart. He fought some of the greatest heavyweights in history and dodged no one.

[Contra Mundum]

nevermind, nm

[Joe McCarthy]

Ali had what all great champions need, speed, chin and heart. He fought some of the greatest heavyweights in history and dodged no one.

He blatantly ducked a rematch with George Foreman.

[Sulla the Dictator]

He blatantly ducked a rematch with George Foreman.

Meh, I dunno. I think Ali was justified in making it difficult for Foreman to get a rematch at first. After all, Foreman did leave the sport for a year and its perfectly fine to expect him to work his way back. And its not like Ali refused to fight any good boxers after he took the title. Even though he was obviously over the hill he did fight Norton and Young and Frazier, which is a lot more impressive than Lennox Lewis beating up on a retarded Mike Tyson or Mayweather fighting Ricky Hatton.

Plus, didn't Foreman retire after he lost to Young, anyway? So whats the rematch window, 75 to 77? After all, its not like Ali won in Zaire by split decision.

[Kamandi]

Tyson (before Cus died and he went to jail) had the most punching power (by an order of magnitude) and probably would at that time have beaten both of them.
Not sure about that. Ali fought some great punchers and came out on top. Ali in his prime vs. '86 Tyson is hard to call.

[Joe McCarthy]

Meh, I dunno. I think Ali was justified in making it difficult for Foreman to get a rematch at first. After all, Foreman did leave the sport for a year and its perfectly fine to expect him to work his way back. And its not like Ali refused to fight any good boxers after he took the title. Even though he was obviously over the hill he did fight Norton and Young and Frazier, which is a lot more impressive than Lennox Lewis beating up on a retarded Mike Tyson or Mayweather fighting Ricky Hatton.

Plus, didn't Foreman retire after he lost to Young, anyway? So whats the rematch window, 75 to 77? After all, its not like Ali won in Zaire by split decision.

Yes, Foreman retired after Young, and you're right on the timeline. The problem here is that Ali feared a rematch with Foreman, particularly after Foreman's incredible exhibition in fighting (and beating) several guys on the same night. Few recall it now, as boxing history is whitewashed with adulation of Ali, but many regarded the Ali victory over Foreman as a fluke, with Foreman thought to have fought an extremely stupid fight. It's not unlikely that Foreman would have actually have been favored to win in the rematch.