Israeli study says ancient Hebrews had negro-like skulls

[AlphaNumericus]

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1037262.html

[Insert witty user name here]

They find one skull that is somewhat uncharacteristic of the population studied and make a big deal out of it. An example of sensational journalism.

Not surprisingly, the appearance of the man is very similar to that of today's Middle Eastern man. The researchers concluded that he belonged to the Mediterranean branch of the Caucasoid group, scientific terminology for what is known as "white."

However, the woman's appearance was quite surprising. She has a large mouth with a protruding upper lip and a full lower lip. The nose is also prominent with a low bridge. These and other findings led the researchers to determine that while the reconstructed woman was also Caucasoid, she had "equatorial (African)" characteristics.

The article notes her "high and prominent upper lip, and 'plump' lower lip." The researchers added: "The chin is prominent, high and narrow, protruding outward."

Ben David highlights the similarities between the two reconstructions and reconstructions of later Jewish populations in Europe. He also compared the early Jews he reconstructed to the average characteristics of modern Jewish populations in Israel, and reached the conclusion that there is a great similarity between the populations.

[Schizo]

That contradicts the common retards' "logic" that the ancient jews were nordic.

[///M power]

they had Negro slaves,it was common. the skull probably belong to one.
if not,maybe the blacks are right when they say Jesus was black. :rofl:

[Schizo]

they had Negro slaves,it was common. the skull probably belong to one.
if not,maybe the blacks are right when they say Jesus was black. :rofl:
Most likely Jesus belonged to the mediterranid branch of the Caucasoid race.

[President Barbicane]

I was thinking about languages. The Hebrew language is a member of the Afro-Asiatic languages group (not an Indo-European language). Afro-Asiatic languages probably arose in Africa, because that's where most of the Afro-Asiatic languages are -- only one language family is spoken in Asia. Just because the ancient Hebrews spoke an African language does not mean that they were African genetically -- they may have spoken it because it was a 'lingua franca', but I wouldn't dismiss out of hand the the idea that Hebrews have African roots.

[numba_one]

I was thinking about languages. The Hebrew language is a member of the Afro-Asiatic languages group (not an Indo-European language). Afro-Asiatic languages probably arose in Africa, because that's where most of the Afro-Asiatic languages are -- only one language family is spoken in Asia. Just because the ancient Hebrews spoke an African language does not mean that they were African genetically -- they may have spoken it because it was a 'lingua franca', but I wouldn't dismiss out of hand the the idea that Hebrews have African roots.


True. Also, according to the Bible, the Ancient Hebrews are the result of mixing between Jacob's 12 sons and Ancient Egyptian women. So, if we're to assume that the Hebrews mixed significantly with the Ancient Egyptians, then it's safe to assume that they had a lot of Black genes when they left Egypt centuries later. Then, after thousands of years of mixing with the Arabs in the region, they began to resemble Arabs more.

[Schizo]

And yet Jesus, according to Publius Lentulus, had "hair of (the colour) chestnut ... His forehead plain and very delicate; His face without spot or wrinkle, beautified with a lovely red; His nose and mouth so formed as nothing can be reprehended; His beard thickish, in colour like his hair, not very long, but forked; His look innocent and mature; His eyes grey-blue, clear, and quick."
LOL
Yes, we've heard that lie and before and have laughed alot. The nonexistent writings of the nonexistent Publius Lentulus.
The original Jeshua Ben Yusuf (Jesus son of Josif) belonged to the mediterranid or armenid branch of the caucasoid race. And your grey-blue eyed, chestnut haired anglo-saxon Jesus exists basicly in the delusional minds of some morons.

[Insert witty user name here]

I was thinking about languages. The Hebrew language is a member of the Afro-Asiatic languages group (not an Indo-European language). Afro-Asiatic languages probably arose in Africa, because that's where most of the Afro-Asiatic languages are -- only one language family is spoken in Asia. Just because the ancient Hebrews spoke an African language does not mean that they were African genetically -- they may have spoken it because it was a 'lingua franca', but I wouldn't dismiss out of hand the the idea that Hebrews have African roots.

The groups most closely related to Jews genetically are Kurds and Armenians. When we look at the typical Jew he looks Armenoid, which is the phenotype Armenians (hence Armenoid) and Kurds tend to have. Notice also the article itself says that it was "surprising." If something is "surprising," especially when compared to alot of other data, then you know it's unusual and so we can dismiss African roots, or I should say Negroid roots since that's what the article wants you to think when it says African. Negroid and African don't necessarily mean the same thing.

True. Also, according to the Bible, the Ancient Hebrews are the result of mixing between Jacob's 12 sons and Ancient Egyptian women. So, if we're to assume that the Hebrews mixed significantly with the Ancient Egyptians, then it's safe to assume that they had a lot of Black genes when they left Egypt centuries later. Then, after thousands of years of mixing with the Arabs in the region, they began to resemble Arabs more.

Oh, here we go... the Ancient Egyptians were Negroids argument again. Even the Negrocentrics beloved Keita does not argue such a thing as he pointed out recently in a video I saw from National Geographics. You would think reading up on what the Ancient Egyptians thought of Blacks would be enough to convince anyone they weren't Negroids. Oh, lordy.

[Insert witty user name here]

LOL
Yes, we've heard that lie and before and have laughed alot. The nonexistent writings of the nonexistent Publius Lentulus.
The original Jeshua Ben Yusuf (Jesus son of Josif) belonged to the mediterranid or armenid branch of the caucasoid race. And your grey-blue eyed, chestnut haired anglo-saxon Jesus exists basicly in the delusional minds of some morons.

Yeah, there is no actual description of Jesus. In fact, there is no record of his existence other than the New Testament.

[Petyr Baelish]

That contradicts the common retards' "logic" that the ancient jews were nordic.

Even among retards, those who believe the ancient Hebrews to have been Nordic are mainly confined to the Christian Identity/British Israelite (Bowel) Movement.

[Kamandi]

The groups most closely related to Jews genetically are Kurds and Armenians.
No, the group most closely related to Jews genetically are the Arabs.

[Insert witty user name here]

No, the group most closely related to Jews genetically are the Arabs.

I already posted sources for my claim at the thread where you decided not to answer my question. I suggest you take a look at it.

You're referring to the "Jews and Palis are genetically similar" study. What you overlook is that the Palistinians are descendants of Jews who converted to Islam and Arabs. The study you're probably thinking of (there is only one I can recall) points this out but you're too blinded by your agenda to notice. You could always throw around your questionable credentials if you have nothing else.

[Insert witty user name here]

"The Genetic Bonds Between Kurds and Jews"

by Kevin Alan Brook

Kurds are the Closest Relatives of Jews

In 2001, a team of Israeli, German, and Indian scientists discovered that the majority of Jews around the world are closely related to the Kurdish people -- more closely than they are to the Semitic-speaking Arabs or any other population that was tested. The researchers sampled a total of 526 Y-chromosomes from 6 populations (Kurdish Jews, Kurdish Muslims, Palestinian Arabs, Sephardic Jews, Ashkenazic Jews, and Bedouin from southern Israel) and added extra data on 1321 persons from 12 populations (including Russians, Belarusians, Poles, Berbers, Portuguese, Spaniards, Arabs, Armenians, and Anatolian Turks). Most of the 95 Kurdish Muslim test subjects came from northern Iraq. Ashkenazic Jews have ancestors who lived in central and eastern Europe, while Sephardic Jews have ancestors from southwestern Europe, northern Africa, and the Middle East. The Kurdish Jews and Sephardic Jews were found to be very close to each other. Both of these Jewish populations differed somewhat from Ashkenazic Jews, who mixed with European peoples during their diaspora. The researchers suggested that the approximately 12.7 percent of Ashkenazic Jews who have the Eu 19 chromosomes -- which are found among between 54 and 60 percent of Eastern European Christians -- descend paternally from eastern Europeans (such as Slavs) or Khazars. But the majority of Ashkenazic Jews, who possess Eu 9 and other chromosomes, descend paternally from Judeans who lived in Israel two thousand years ago. In the article in the November 2001 issue of The American Journal of Human Genetics, Ariella Oppenheim of the Hebrew University of Israel wrote that this new study revealed that Jews have a closer genetic relationship to populations in the northern Mediterranean (Kurds, Anatolian Turks, and Armenians) than to populations in the southern Mediterranean (Arabs and Bedouins).

A previous study by Ariella Oppenheim and her colleagues, published in Human Genetics in December 2000, showed that about 70 percent of Jewish paternal ancestries and about 82 percent of Palestinian Arabs share the same chromosomal pool. The geneticists asserted that this might support the claim that Palestinian Arabs descend in part from Judeans who converted to Islam. With their closer relationship to Jews, the Palestinian Arabs are distinctive from other Arab groups, such as Syrians, Lebanese, Saudis, and Iraqis, who have less of a connection to Jews.

A study by Michael Hammer et al., published in PNAS in June 2000, had identified a genetic connection between Arabs (especially Syrians and Palestinians) and Jews, but had not tested Kurds, so it was less complete.

Many Kurds have the "Jewish" Cohen Modal Haplotype

In the 1990s, a team of scientists (including the geneticist Michael Hammer, the nephrologist Karl Skorecki, and their colleagues in England) discovered the existence of a haplotype which they termed the "Cohen modal haplotype" (abbreviated as CMH). Cohen is the Hebrew word for "priest", and designates descendants of Judean priests from two thousand years ago. Initial research indicated that while only about 3 percent of general Jews have this haplotype, 45 percent of Ashkenazic Cohens have it, while 56 percent of Sephardic Cohens have it. David Goldstein, an evolutionary geneticist at Oxford University, said: "It looks like this chromosomal type was a constituent of the ancestral Hebrew population." Some Jewish rabbis used the Cohen study to argue that all Cohens with the CMH had descended from Aaron, a High Priest who lived about 3500 years ago, as the Torah claimed. Shortly after, it was determined that 53 percent of the Buba clan of the Lemba people of southern Africa have the CMH, compared to 9 percent of non-Buba Lembas. The Lembas claim descent from ancient Israelites, and they follow certain Jewish practices such as circumcision and refraining from eating pork, and for many geneticists and historians the genetic evidence seemed to verify their claim.

However, it soon became apparent that the CMH is not specific to Jews or descendants of Jews. In a 1998 article in Science News, Dr. Skorecki indicated (in an interview) that some non-Jews also possess the Cohen markers, and that the markers are therefore not "unique or special". The CMH is very common among Iraqi Kurds, according to a 1999 study by C. Brinkmann et al. And in her 2001 article, Oppenheim wrote: "The dominant haplotype of the Muslim Kurds (haplotype 114) was only one microsatellite-mutation step apart from the CMH..." (Oppenheim 2001, page 1100). Furthermore, the CMH is also found among some Armenians, according to Dr. Levon Yepiskoposyan (Head of the Institute of Man in Yerevan, Armenia), who has studied genetics for many years. Dr. Avshalom Zoossmann-Diskin wrote: "The suggestion that the 'Cohen modal haplotype' is a signature haplotype for the ancient Hebrew population is also not supported by data from other populations." (Zoossmann-Diskin 2000, page 156).

In short, the CMH is a genetic marker from the northern Middle East which is not unique to Jews. However, its existence among many Kurds and Armenians, as well as some Italians and Hungarians, would seem to support the overall contention that Kurds and Armenians are the close relatives of modern Jews and that the majority of today's Jews have paternal ancestry from the northeastern Mediterranean region.

The Jewish Kingdom of Adiabene in Ancient Kurdistan

In ancient times, the royal house of Adiabene and some of the common people of Adiabene converted to Judaism. The capital city of Adiabene was Arbela (known today by Arabs as Irbil and by Kurds as Hawler). King Izates became closely attached to his new faith, and sent his sons to study Hebrew and Jewish customs in Jerusalem. His successor to the throne was his brother Monobazos II, who also adopted Judaism. In her 2001 study, Oppenheim references the kingdom of Adiabene, but suggests that while Adiabene's conversion to Judaism "resulted in the assimilation of non-Jews into the community... This recorded conversion does not appear to have had a considerable effect on the Y chromosome pool of the Kurdish Jews." (Oppenheim 2001, page 1103). Some of the Jewish Adiabenians may have eventually converted to Christianity.

Conclusions

Research has just begun into the ancient ties between Kurds and Jews. It would be interesting to see if the various Jewish groups have as strong a family tie to Kurds in the maternal lineages as they do in the paternal lineages. Preliminary studies indicate that Jewish populations in eastern Europe and Yemen have maternal origins that contain much more non-Israelite ancestry than their paternal origins. Despite this admixture with other groups, the Jewish Judean people ultimately began their existence in an area within or nearby Kurdistan, prior to migrating southwest to Israel. This exciting research showing that Kurds and Jews may have shared common fathers several millennia ago should, hopefully, encourage both Kurds and Jews to explore each others' cultures and to maintain the friendship that Kurds and Jews enjoyed in northern Iraq in recent times (as chronicled in Michael Rubin's recent article "The Other Iraq"). As Rubin indicates, the Kurdish leader Mullah Mustafa Barzani once visited Israel and met with Israeli government officials. Rubin refers to the Iraqi Kurds' "special affinity for Israel" and writes that "In the safe haven of Iraqi Kurdistan, the Jews and Israel are remembered fondly, if increasingly vaguely." Let us hope that this relationship can be renewed and strengthened.

Bibliography:

Brinkmann, C., et al. "Human Y-chromosomal STR haplotypes in a Kurdish population sample." International Journal of Legal Medicine 112 (1999): 181-183.

Brook, Kevin A. The Jews of Khazaria. Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson, 1999.

Hammer, Michael F., et al. "Y Chromosomes of Jewish Priests." Nature 385 (January 2, 1997): 32.

Hammer, Michael F., et al. "Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish Populations Share a Common Pool of Y-chromosome Biallelic Haplotypes." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA (PNAS) 97:12 (June 6, 2000): 6769-6774.

Oppenheim, Ariella, et al. "High-resolution Y chromosome haplotypes of Israeli and Palestinian Arabs reveal geographic substructure and substantial overlap with haplotypes of Jews." Human Genetics 107(6) (December 2000): 630-641.

Oppenheim, Ariella, et al. "The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East." The American Journal of Human Genetics 69:5 (November 2001): 1095-1112.

Rubin, Michael. "The Other Iraq." Jerusalem Report (December 31, 2001).

Siegel, Judy. "Genetic evidence links Jews to their ancient tribe." Jerusalem Post (November 20, 2001).

Thomas, Mark G., et al. "Y Chromosomes Traveling South: the Cohen Modal Haplotype and the Origins of the Lemba -- the 'Black Jews of Southern Africa'." American Journal of Human Genetics 66:2 (February 2000): 674-686.

Traubman, Tamara. "Study finds close genetic connection between Jews, Kurds." Ha'aretz (November 21, 2001).

Travis, J. "The Priests' Chromosome? DNA analysis supports the biblical story of the Jewish priesthood." Science News 154:14 (October 3, 1998): 218.

Zoossmann-Diskin, Avshalom. "Are today's Jewish priests descended from the old ones?" HOMO: Journal of Comparative Human Biology 51:2-3 (2000): 156-162.


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1626606/posts

[numba_one]

Oh, here we go... the Ancient Egyptians were Negroids argument again. Even the Negrocentrics beloved Keita does not argue such a thing as he pointed out recently in a video I saw from National Geographics. You would think reading up on what the Ancient Egyptians thought of Blacks would be enough to convince anyone they weren't Negroids. Oh, lordy.


I didn't say that the Ancient Egyptians were Negroid, I said that they were Black. Not all Blacks are Negroid. The Ancient Egyptians are Cushitic Blacks; they were related to Cushitic Ethiopians and Somalis; which is the region they originally migrated from. Somalis and Ethiopians have Caucasoid skull shapes and facial features but also reddish brown skin, which is what the Ancient Egyptians looked like. Also, the Ancient Egyptians themselves traced their ancestry to Ethiopia, not to mention also that studies on the bone remains of Ancient Egyptians show the most similarity to Ethiopians and Somalis. There was also some mixing with Mediterranean types in the northern region of Egypt, but the ruling class and most of the population were primarily Cushitic up until the decline of their civilization when Mediterranean types like the Ptolomeys took over.

[Crowley]

they had Negro slaves,it was common. the skull probably belong to one.
if not,maybe the blacks are right when they say Jesus was black. :rofl:

Don't forget Black Moses. :rofl:

[Cadavre Exquis]

I didn't say that the Ancient Egyptians were Negroid, I said that they were Black. Not all Blacks are Negroid. The Ancient Egyptians are Cushitic Blacks; they were related to Cushitic Ethiopians and Somalis; which is the region they originally migrated from. Somalis and Ethiopians have Caucasoid skull shapes and facial features but also reddish brown skin, which is what the Ancient Egyptians looked like. Also, the Ancient Egyptians themselves traced their ancestry to Ethiopia, not to mention also that studies on the bone remains of Ancient Egyptians show the most similarity to Ethiopians and Somalis. There was also some mixing with Mediterranean types in the northern region of Egypt, but the ruling class and most of the population were primarily Cushitic up until the decline of their civilization when Mediterranean types like the Ptolomeys took over.
"Black" within the context of ancient civilisations is pretty meaningless.

[Ahknaton]

I didn't say that the Ancient Egyptians were Negroid, I said that they were Black. Not all Blacks are Negroid. The Ancient Egyptians are Cushitic Blacks; they were related to Cushitic Ethiopians and Somalis; which is the region they originally migrated from. Somalis and Ethiopians have Caucasoid skull shapes and facial features but also reddish brown skin, which is what the Ancient Egyptians looked like. Also, the Ancient Egyptians themselves traced their ancestry to Ethiopia, not to mention also that studies on the bone remains of Ancient Egyptians show the most similarity to Ethiopians and Somalis. There was also some mixing with Mediterranean types in the northern region of Egypt, but the ruling class and most of the population were primarily Cushitic up until the decline of their civilization when Mediterranean types like the Ptolomeys took over.
numba_one,

Can you confirm, deny or otherwise comment on the Ethiopian concepts of race mentioned in this thread:

http://thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=28137

?

[numba_one]

"Black" within the context of ancient civilisations is pretty meaningless.


It's true that most ancient civilizations didn't view races the way we do today. In fact, the Ancient Egyptians considered themselves as a separate race from Whites, Arabs, and the other types of Blacks who were in Africa:


For instance, they depicted the races that they knew of and themselves in hieroglyphics:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Seti.jpg


The first four men starting from the bottom left are Ancient Egyptians, followed by four Arabs, followed by four Blacks, followed by four Whites. So, based on their own depictions, they viewed themselves as darker skinned and different from Arabs and Whites but lighter than other blacks, which contradicts the view that they were either Arab or White. It does however fit with how Ethiopians and Somalis look; reddish brown skin:


http://imgs.sthlmsfinest.com/imageGalleryImages/scaled/205524_729_488_1.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/ill/hebrewisrael/printpages/imanqueen3.jpg http://myhero.com/images/guest/g17376/hero17281/g17376_u14135_waris1.jpg


http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/5263/ubaos0.jpg http://www.jamati.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/liyakebede.jpg http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/2035/63scys0cf6.jpg

[numba_one]

numba_one,

Can you confirm, deny or otherwise comment on the Ethiopian concepts of race mentioned in this thread:

http://thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=28137

?



From my experience, most Ethiopians consider themselves to be Black, but also different from other types of African Blacks with the exception of Somalis and Eritreans, who are of the same ethnicity as them. They view their culture and nation as an ancient one which was civilized long before Whites in Europe were, so they feel a sense of pride from that, even though today Ethiopia is a poor country.

[Cadavre Exquis]

It's true that most ancient civilizations didn't view races the way we do today. In fact, the Ancient Egyptians considered themselves as a separate race from Whites, Arabs, and the other types of Blacks who were in Africa:


For instance, they depicted the races that they knew of and themselves in hieroglyphics:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Seti.jpg


The first four men starting from the bottom left are Ancient Egyptians, followed by four Arabs, followed by four Blacks, followed by four Whites. So, based on their own depictions, they viewed themselves as darker skinned and different from Arabs and Whites but lighter than other blacks, which contradicts the view that they were either Arab or White.
If you had properly quoted the Wikipedia article where you pulled that from, the four races depicted are Libyan, Nubian, Asiatic (whatever that may be) and Egyptian. Again, these do not correspond to the modern definitions of "White", "Black", etc.

The source of that picture:
Rossellini, Ippolito. 1832–44. I monumenti dell’Egitto e della
Nubia disegnati dalla Spedizione Scientifico-letteraria Toscana
in Egitto. Pisa: Capurro.

It does however fit with how Ethiopians and Somalis look; reddish brown skin:


http://imgs.sthlmsfinest.com/imageGalleryImages/scaled/205524_729_488_1.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/ill/hebrewisrael/printpages/imanqueen3.jpg http://myhero.com/images/guest/g17376/hero17281/g17376_u14135_waris1.jpg


http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/5263/ubaos0.jpg http://www.jamati.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/liyakebede.jpg http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/2035/63scys0cf6.jpg
You're making some bold assumptions to link those pictures at the top to modern day African populations.

Firstly, how well preserved are these Egyptian heiroglyphs? I was under the impression that most paint had been eroded from frescoes that were thousands of years old.

Secondly, if the skin tones shown are in fact as they were depicted by the ancient Egyptians, it was more than likely done in order to distinguish between between each of the peoples. The differences in skin tone are likely exaggerated.

[Insert witty user name here]

It's true that most ancient civilizations didn't view races the way we do today. In fact, the Ancient Egyptians considered themselves as a separate race from Whites, Arabs, and the other types of Blacks who were in Africa:

Do modern day Egyptians look Black to you?

The biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians were tested against their neighbors and selected prehistoric groups as well as against samples representing the major geographic population clusters of the world. Two dozen craniofacial measurements were taken on each individual used. The raw measurements were converted into C scores and used to produce Euclidean distance dendrograms. The measurements were principally of adaptively trivial traits that display patterns of regional similarities based solely on genetic relationships. The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania, or the New World. Adjacent people in the Nile valley show similarities in trivial traits in an unbroken series from the delta in the north southward through Nubia and all the way to Somalia at the equator. At the same time, the gradient in skin color and body proportions suggests long-term adaptive response to selective forces appropriate to the latitude where they occur. An assessment of race is as useless as it is impossible. Neither clines nor clusters alone suffice to deal with the biological nature of a widely distributed population. Both must be used. We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well. © 1993 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/110532242/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

[numba_one]

If you had properly quoted the Wikipedia article where you pulled that from, the four races depicted are Libyan, Nubian, Asiatic (whatever that may be) and Egyptian. Again, these do not correspond to the modern definitions of "White", "Black", etc.

The source of that picture:
Rossellini, Ippolito. 1832–44. I monumenti dell’Egitto e della
Nubia disegnati dalla Spedizione Scientifico-letteraria Toscana
in Egitto. Pisa: Capurro.


The one that's described as "Asiatic" was described as a Syrian in another hieroglyph. The fact that he looks much paler than the Libyan, leads me to believe that he represents the White race or what Egyptians viewed to be as White during their era. Keep in mind that the Ancient Egyptians didn't believe that Whites were only restricted to Europe as is the common conception today; In general, Syrians, Lebanese, and Jordanians tend to be lighter looking than other Arabs; particularly Saudis, so there is a recognizable difference that could be construed as them being of different races to the Ancient Egyptians.


You're making some bold assumptions to link those pictures at the top to modern day African populations.

Firstly, how well preserved are these Egyptian heiroglyphs? I was under the impression that most paint had been eroded from frescoes that were thousands of years old.


Most of the hieroglyphics which were inside pyramids or buildings were preserved over time, since they weren't washed away by rain or eroded by wind or sand. I don't know how well preserved the ones showing the different races were, but even if the paint had come off, there are ways to tell which paints were used through chemical analysis.

Secondly, if the skin tones shown are in fact as they were depicted by the ancient Egyptians, it was more than likely done in order to distinguish between between each of the peoples. The differences in skin tone are likely exaggerated.


If their intention was just to distinguish themselves from other peoples, then why did they depict Somalis and Ethiopians with the same skin tone and clothing as themselves? Keep in mind that the only people they ever made appear like them in hieroglyphics were Somalis and Ethiopians, and that makes sense since they traced their ancestry to that region, which they referred to as Punt, and they believed that it was the land of the Gods, which is why Ancient Egyptians pharaohs would make trips to it, such as Queen Hatshepsut did during her reign as pharaoh.

During the trip, which the Ancient Egyptians documented, the Queen of Punt asked Hatshepsut why the Egyptians hadn't visited them in a long time. Here is a hieroglyphic depiction of the Queen of Punt with her guards as well as some depictions of her people bringing gifts and trade items to the Ancient Egyptians. She was very fat, which is why the Ancient Egyptians depicted her that way. As you can see, she and her guards were depicted with the same skin tone as the Ancient Egyptians and they are wearing the same type of clothing as well:


http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/artoverview10.jpg

http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/timelines/topics/pics/expedition_to_punt.jpg

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/punt5.jpg

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/punt7.jpg

[numba_one]

Do modern day Egyptians look Black to you?


Modern Egyptians are the result of thousands of years of mixing between the original Ancient Egyptian population and invading groups such as Arabs and Greeks, so you shouldn't expect them to look Black.


The biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians were tested against their neighbors and selected prehistoric groups as well as against samples representing the major geographic population clusters of the world. Two dozen craniofacial measurements were taken on each individual used. The raw measurements were converted into C scores and used to produce Euclidean distance dendrograms. The measurements were principally of adaptively trivial traits that display patterns of regional similarities based solely on genetic relationships. The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania, or the New World. Adjacent people in the Nile valley show similarities in trivial traits in an unbroken series from the delta in the north southward through Nubia and all the way to Somalia at the equator. At the same time, the gradient in skin color and body proportions suggests long-term adaptive response to selective forces appropriate to the latitude where they occur. An assessment of race is as useless as it is impossible. Neither clines nor clusters alone suffice to deal with the biological nature of a widely distributed population. Both must be used. We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well. © 1993 Wiley-Liss, Inc.


I've read other articles which came to the conclusion that the Ancient Egyptians had skulls which were most similar to Somalis and Ethiopians, but regardless, it's difficult to distinguish between Caucasoid skulls, so I won't dispute that point. However, you'd still have to answer for why the Ancient Egyptians had limb proportions that were typical of Black people even though modern Egyptians don't have those same limb proportions and neither do Europeans or Arabs. So, you'd have to make the claim that even though they had the same types of bones that Black people have today, that they weren't Black. Or, the simple answer would be to find a population in Africa that has both caucasoid skulls and Black limb proportions, which would fit nicely with the Somalis and Ethiopians who have both.

[Emu]

LOL
Yes, we've heard that lie and before and have laughed alot. The nonexistent writings of the nonexistent Publius Lentulus.
The original Jeshua Ben Yusuf (Jesus son of Josif) belonged to the mediterranid or armenid branch of the caucasoid race. And your grey-blue eyed, chestnut haired anglo-saxon Jesus exists basicly in the delusional minds of some morons.

Jesus was probably the son of a Roman soldier named Pandera as stated in the Talmud, which, incidentally, is the only contemporary source of information on the life of Christ.

[Insert witty user name here]

Modern Egyptians are the result of thousands of years of mixing between the original Ancient Egyptian population and invading groups such as Arabs and Greeks, so you shouldn't expect them to look Black.

Did you read what I posted?

We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations.



However, you'd still have to answer for why the Ancient Egyptians had limb proportions that were typical of Black people even though modern Egyptians don't have those same limb proportions and neither do Europeans or Arabs. So, you'd have to make the claim that even though they had the same types of bones that Black people have today, that they weren't Black. Or, the simple answer would be to find a population in Africa that has both caucasoid skulls and Black limb proportions, which would fit nicely with the Somalis and Ethiopians who have both.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say selection. However, I don't know much about the issue, and neither do you. What I do know is that the overall evidence doesn't point to Negroids, and that the only people who really care whether the Ancient Egypts were Negroid, or not, are people like you struggling to find something to hold up as their own. You see, "Whites", have a shit load of other civilizations to be proud of, while Blacks don't. So you guys fight tooth and nail for Ancient Egypt, while most Whites couldn't care either way. It's the sad truth of the matter.

[numba_one]

Did you read what I posted?

We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations.

Bullshit! So, you think that the Islamic invasion not to mention also Alexander the Great conquering Egypt and putting in place Greeks to rule had no effect on the population of Egypt? If as you say the Ancient Egyptians are not the result of mixing between Arabs, Greeks, and an originally Cushitic population, then why do modern Egyptians have high levels of E1b1b, which is a haplotype group which originated in the Horn of Africa. It's in Somalis at an 80% frequency whereas it's in Egyptians at 39%, which is much higher than the normal frequency for North Africans and Arabs in general. In fact, outside of the Horn of Africa, Egypt has the highest frequency of E1b1b. That should be an indicator right away that the modern Egyptians have mixed heavily into a Cushitic population. But, the reason why it's not apparent based on their appearance is because Cushitic features don't get passed on very well when Somalis and Ethiopians mix outside of their race. I'm sure you've come across examples. So, thousands of years of migration into Egypt by Arabs and Greeks changed the appearance of the original Acient Egyptian population; but their genes are still very Cushitic.




I'm going to take a wild guess and say selection. However, I don't know much about the issue, and neither do you. What I do know is that the overall evidence doesn't point to Negroids, and that the only people who really care whether the Ancient Egypts were Negroid, or not, are people like you struggling to find something to hold up as their own. You see, "Whites", have a shit load of other civilizations to be proud of, while Blacks don't. So you guys fight tooth and nail for Ancient Egypt, while most Whites couldn't care either way. It's the sad truth of the matter.


I'm not trying to claim any other civilization just for self esteem purposes. I'm just against Nordicists and other Whites who try to claim all great civilizations for White people. I've even seen Nordicists claim that the Ancient Chinese and South American(Mayan, Incan, Aztec) civilizations were started by Whites who were either bred out or left after building great civilizations. The same people claim that the Ancient Egyptians were blond or red haired and blue eyed Whites. Anyone who believes that the Ancient Egyptians were Nordic is clearly delusional, but their opinions get a lot of play on forums like this, which is why I'm here combating them.

[Insert witty user name here]

Bullshit! So, you think that the Islamic invasion not to mention also Alexander the Great conquering Egypt and putting in place Greeks to rule had no effect on the population of Egypt? If as you say the Ancient Egyptians are not the result of mixing between Arabs, Greeks, and an originally Cushitic population, then why do modern Egyptians have high levels of E1b1b, which is a haplotype group which originated in the Horn of Africa. It's in Somalis at an 80% frequency whereas it's in Egyptians at 39%, which is much higher than the normal frequency for North Africans and Arabs in general. In fact, outside of the Horn of Africa, Egypt has the highest frequency of E1b1b. That should be an indicator right away that the modern Egyptians have mixed heavily into a Cushitic population. But, the reason why it's not apparent based on their appearance is because Cushitic features don't get passed on very well when Somalis and Ethiopians mix outside of their race. I'm sure you've come across examples. So, thousands of years of migration into Egypt by Arabs and Greeks changed the appearance of the original Acient Egyptian population; but their genes are still very Cushitic.

Do you think I'm Charles Loring Brace? And do you know what Pleistocene refers to?

Concerning the origins of the E1b1b lineage, Bosch et al. (2001), Semino et al. (2004)[15], Cruciani et al. (2004)[16], (2006)[17], and (2007)[18], point to evidence that not only E1b1b (E-M215), but also both its parent lineage E1b1 (E-P2), and its dominant sub-clade E1b1b1 (E-M35) probably all first appeared in East Africa between 20,000 and 47,500 years ago.[4] There are different techniques available for such estimates, and a considerable range of possibilities, but the most recent estimates of Cruciani et al. (2007) are around 24,000 years ago for E-M215[19] or E-M35.[20]

Citing Cruciani et al. (2004), Coffman-Levy (2005) wrote that E1b1b1 (E-M35) "arose in East Africa". However, she added that this haplogroup is "often incorrectly described as “African,” leaving a misimpression regarding the origin and complex history of this haplogroup", and that such misinformation about this haplogroup also continued to pervade the public and media at least until the time of writing in 2005.[21]

According to the International Society of Genetic Genealogy (ISOGG) and National Geographic's Genographic Project, E1b1b1 may have arisen instead in the Near East or the Middle East and then expanded into the Mediterranean with the spread of agriculture.[3][22]

All major sub-branches of E1b1b1 are thought to have originated in the same general area as the parent clade: in North Africa, the Horn of Africa, or the Near East.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E1b1b

[Insert witty user name here]

Jesus was probably the son of a Roman soldier named Pandera as stated in the Talmud, which, incidentally, is the only contemporary source of information on the life of Christ.

That could have been added to slight him when Christianity became popular among many Jews.

[Starr]

One skull? That is seriously all there is to this? I was expecting something at least partially substantial.(along with a male skull that showed no black African characteristics at that) But yes, that is all it will take for blacks to claim Jesus and numerous other biblical figures once again.:bbbat:

[Jett]

Blacks claiming Jesus was black is no different than Europeans claiming Jesus was a pale White man with long flowing hair living in the middle east.

[Starr]

Blacks claiming Jesus was black is no different than Europeans claiming Jesus was a pale White man with long flowing hair living in the middle east.


yes, people feel a need to claim jesus as one of their own to make him more culturally acceptable to them. With blacks, there is also an inferiority element going on, claiming all kinds of people and civilizations as their own,etc.

[Schizo]

Jesus was probably the son of a Roman soldier named Pandera as stated in the Talmud, which, incidentally, is the only contemporary source of information on the life of Christ.
Provide source and link. Quote the Talmud.
To me that makes no sense.

[Robespierre]

The author of this article surely mistaken ancient Natufian skull (wich had partly-Negroid features) for a more recent Semitic one.

[KerguelenExileDissident]

This is the kind of thread I would expect 1 a degenerate reformed Jew to post and 2 A Skinhead to propagate.

In anthropological academic circles, people do not base facts on hypothetical "reconstruction" of a given skull. It is important to understand the ancient history of the middle-east. Blacks were nowhere near this area except for cush which is modern day Ethopia, now it is possible that slaves might have existed in this area but this would be the exception. Also if Ancient Hebrews were Negroid they would have been unable to maintain a civilization in this area and would have been unable to avoid being taken over by other more civilization sustaining groups.

The Ancient middle-east was heavily influenced by White Caucasian groups and therefore the Hebrews would have been subjected to either that category or Semitic (ancient-arab category).

Ancient Hebrews were either White, Semitic (Ancient Arab), or a mix thereof. I once thought Southern Italian looking individuals was most appropiate.

Those interested on some theoretical information on Race of the Ancient Hebrews see my thread.

What is actutally extremely funny is even the Cushites and the Nubians are anthropologically speaking Negroid, they are BLACK Caucasoids. So I have no clue where these Negroids would come from.

[klipgeit]

Provide source and link. Quote the Talmud.
To me that makes no sense.

What they say about Jesus.
What is fact or fiction ???.But where there is smoke there is a fire,read the last website too

Sanhedrin, 67a -- Jesus referred to as the son of Pandira, a soldier

Kallah, 1b. (18b) -- Illegitimate and conceived during menstruation.

Sanhedrin, 67a -- Hanged on the eve of Passover. Toldath Jeschu. Birth related in most shameful expressions

Abhodah Zarah II -- Referred to as the son of Pandira, a Roman soldier.

Schabbath XIV. Again referred to as the son of Pandira, the Roman.

Sanhedrin, 43a -- On the eve of Passover they hanged Jesus.

Schabbath, 104b -- Called a fool and no one pays attention to fools.

Toldoth Jeschu. Judas and Jesus engaged in quarrel with filth.

Sanhedrin, 103a. -- Suggested corrupts his morals and dishonors self.

Sanhedrin, 107b. -- Seduced, corrupted and destroyed Israel.

Zohar (III, 282) -- Died like a beast and buried in animal's dirt heap.

Hilkoth Melakhim -- Attempted to prove Christians err in worship of Jesus

Abhodah Zarah, 21a -- Reference to worship of Jesus in homes unwanted.

Orach Chaiim, 113 -- Avoid appearance of paying respect to Jesus.

Iore dea, 150,2 -- Do not appear to pay respect to Jesus by accident.

Abhodah Zarah (6a) -- False teachings to worship on first day of Sabbath

Sanhedrin, 67a
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshu
http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_67.html




http://christianparty.net/talmudwilliemartin.htm

[KerguelenExileDissident]

You should try looking at my post I did on "Jews teach those who study the Torah should be killed or whatever."

Jews constantly keep claiming that no major rabbi takes the quotes seriously in a similiar way Christians do with the bible, problem is they then deny that the Talmud even says this because its taken out of context.

yet if you study Judaism you see them quoting Talmud everytime the talk

They are liars, plain and simple, and they have no qualms about lying because you are outside their tribe