Scenes in Dublin.

[cerberus]

Awful scenes in Dublin at the weekend.
Disgusted with all concerned.

[Ace Rimmer]

What scenes?

[Heimdall]

What scenes?

Look here (http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=174077714&p=y74x784zx).

An Garda Siochana had no intelligence to suggest a planned peaceful march by unionists through Dublin would be hijacked by republican rioters, one of the force’s most senior officers revealed today.

Assistant Garda Commissioner Alan McHugh admitted there was no indication hundreds of thugs would descend on the city centre intent on causing mayhem and attacking the Love Ulster rally.

“We were depending on intelligence, we don’t normally speak about intelligence, but certainly it was clear that there was a counter protest but no intelligence whatsoever to indicate that the violence, even planned violence, that took place in Dublin was going to take place,” he said.

“The intelligence that was available to us from different sources, including the PSNI, was that no high grade protesting was going to take place on the day.

Assistant Commissioner McHugh said his officers were aware members of hard-line Republican Sinn Féin planned to gather at the entrance to O’Connell Street to protest against the loyalist parade.

But he said they did not expect the indiscriminate violence that ensued.

[Felix the Cat]

This was predictable. Completely irresponsible of the police to allow the march to go ahead.

[Basil Fawlty]

This was predictable. Completely irresponsible of the police to allow the march to go ahead.The political powers that be obviously wanted this outcome so that people like cerberus could further self-righteously denounce republicans or nationalists. Anyone with any sense knew this was going to happen.

[Jonathan]

The political powers that be obviously wanted this outcome so that people like cerberus could further self-righteously denounce republicans or nationalists. Anyone with any sense knew this was going to happen.
I think it should be pointed out that the rioters were not necessarily "republicans" or "nationalists".

[Basil Fawlty]

I think it should be pointed out that the rioters were not necessarily "republicans" or "nationalists".Sure, but the official line will be that it is they who are responsible in yet another attempt to blacken them.
The main thing is that the Orangemen were prevented from passing the GPO.

[Jonathan]

Sure, but the official line will be that it is they who are responsible in yet another attempt to blacken them.
Will be? Already is, I'd say. It was the quickest labeling I've seen (inspite of the fact that there were anti-Capitalism protestors, and various other sorts, who "just happened" to be there at the same time).

[cerberus]

The political powers that be obviously wanted this outcome so that people like cerberus could further self-righteously denounce republicans or nationalists. Anyone with any sense knew this was going to happen.
Basil - off the high horse if you don't mind.
"People like cerberus" - me - the " well intention Brit" as you have named me in the past ?
BTW This "well intention Brit" walked past the GPO a few weeks ago and the building surived with out bursting into flames and I didn't break out in a rash of boils.
I even had an excellent meal in a very nice hotel and it didn't kill me.


I did say all concerned did I not I did not "name call" anyone , nor did I identify anyone.
Whoever attacked the members of the press who reported it - assulting them , whoever attacked the member of the Garda , whoever damaged shops and private property , whoever destroyed privately owned cars , whoever decided to have a protest march in the centre of Dublin , whoever organised the response to the loyalists - refer back to them Basil.

As far as a loyalist parade in the centre of Dublin goes , it's "Catch 22" for the authorities , as far as the Garda go ,they are stuck as "aunt sally" in the middle .

Irresponsible to have a parade of this kind there and say "nothing to do with us if there was violence".
All concerned have a responsibility for their actons and their behaviours.
Perhaps this last line is clear enough for you ?

[Basil Fawlty]

Basil - off the high horse if you don't mind.
"People like cerberus" - me - the " well intention Brit" as you have named me in the past ?

I did say all concerned did I not I did not "name call" anyone , nor did I identify anyone.
Whoever attacked the members of the press who reported it - assulting them , whoever attacked the member of the Garda , whoever damaged shops and private property , whoever destroyed privately owned cars , whoever decided to have a protest march in the centre of Dublin , whoever organised the response to the loyalists - refer back to them Basil.

As far as a loyalist parade in the centre of Dublin goes , it's "Catch 22" for the authorities , as far as the Garda go they are stuck as aunt sally in the middle .

Irresponsible to have a parade of this kind there and say nothing to do with us if there was violence.
All concerned have a responsibility for their actons and their behaviours.
Perhaps this last line is clear enough for you ?O.k., that's fair enough, my apologies. Responsibility for these events should placed at the door of those who allowed it in the first place, i.e. the southern government.

[cerberus]

Basil , thank you for your apology - no hard feelings - I have said in the past - we may have different views on things but I don't see you as being a " bad guy".
I would again refer you back to my view of people taking ownership for their actions and in doing so their responsibilities.

I don't excuse anyone - as for the Southern goverment - they were not marching and they were not assulting Garda or journalists.
We can excuse children , adults should know better.

[Basil Fawlty]

I would again refer you back to my view of people taking ownership for their actions and in doing so their responsibilities.I agree with that as a general rule

I don't excuse anyone - as for the Southern goverment - they were not marching and they were not assulting Garda or journalists.
We can excuse children , adults should know better.They had the power to stop it from happening in the first place. They are lying if they say they did not expect this because as the saying goes "even the dogs on the street" knew this would happen and have known for months now, since this lunatic proposal was first floated. The buck stops with them.

[cerberus]

I would apply the "general rule" Basil.
For years in the "North" it has been the general cop out "always someone else's fault" on so many occasions I have lost count.
If you bring people out on to the street to "march" or to " protest" , you can't walk away from what happens.

You are saying that if you "allow a march" you have a responsibility for what happens.
For how you police it , not for how people behave.
How often have the police/ Garda been called "heavy handed" ?
How often has there been a hue and cry about "my rights to protest or to march" ?
If "the dogs in the street" ( Are you a secret admirer of Rev "IKP" ?:p ) knew about how it would end , then there has been plenty of time for those who organised the march and the reaction to it to consider and acknowledge their responsibilities and ensure that no disorder took place.

[Basil Fawlty]

I would apply the "general rule" Basil.
For years in the "North" it has been the general cop out "always someone else's fault" on so many occasions I have lost count.
If you bring people out on to the street to "march" or to " protest" , you can't walk away from what happens.

You are saying that if you "allow a march" you have a responsibility for what happens.
For how you police it , not for how people behave.
How often have the police/ Garda been called "heavy handed" ?
How often has there been a hue and cry about "my rights to protest or to march" ?
If "the dogs in the street" ( Are you a secret admirer of Rev "IKP" ?:p ) knew about how it would end , then there has been plenty of time for those who organised the march and the reaction to it to consider and acknowledge their responsibilities and ensure that no disorder took place.No, I'm suggesting that the powers that be wanted things to turn out more or less as they did in order to show off republicanism in a bad light. There can be no other explanation for their allowing this march to go ahead in the first place. This has been their strategy for the last few years now and this is just the latest installment.

[cerberus]

Basil I can't agree.
The "republican movement" are about as "PIL" ( sorry just posted on the Sex Pistols tread) orientated as you can get - I don't see them falling into a "crude trap" such as the one you are suggesting.
If "they" did I would be very surprised , and "they" would be very disappointed and kicking "themselves" if they were allowed to be cast in this light.

[Basil Fawlty]

Basil I can't agree.
The "republican movement" are about as "PIL" ( sorry just posted on the Sex Pistols tread) orientated as you can get - I don't see them falling into a "crude trap" such as the one you are suggesting.
If "they" did I would be very surprised , and "they" would be very disappointed and kicking "themselves" if they were allowed to be cast in this light.Adams was on condeming the whole thing. The real target are those who don't buy into the so-called "peace-process".
Whatever about the collateral damage and some of the questionable elemetns who just went along for a good riot, I'm very glad the Orangemen did not get to pass the GPO.

[cerberus]

I was going to make the point regarding the split within the Republican movement - those who might wnat to carry on with an "armed struggle".
Its only sepculation linking the disturbacne with that opinion , but do you think it advanced or helped anything ?
The GPO is a building with a historical past "orange men" walking past , it means something to yourself , which I respect - to me its neither an insult nor is it a moment of triumph.
I view Drumcree in a similar manner its meaningless to me .
The heat has to come off , it does not change the past and what the place the GPO has in history , nor will it chnage what it will be in the future.
It's only a conflict or an issue if we want it to be.

If you are thinking CIRA and an armed struggle I still don't buy into a trap created by a hostile State , its conspircay theory time .

[Basil Fawlty]

I was going to make the point regarding the split within the Republican movement - those who might wnat to carry on with an "armed struggle".
Its only sepculation linking the disturbacne with that opinion , but do you think it advanced or helped anything ?From the state's point of view, yes. It provides them an opportunity to further denigrate republicans.
The GPO is a building with a historical past "orange men" walking past , it means something to yourself , which I respect - to me its neither an insult nor is it a moment of triumph.It is a national monument of enormous significance, Orangemen or anyone carrying union jacks are not to be allowed march past it. Burned cars and looting aside, the disturbances on saturday ensured that this would not happen. My point is, that this situation - Orangemen marching in Dublin - should never have been allowed to arise: Dublin says No!
I view Drumcree in a similar manner its meaningless to me .The 'to me' is the operative term here. These things are of general importance not individual fancy.

[Slavic Enforcer]

IRELAND TO THE IRISH!

:cool:

[cerberus]

"Me , myself , I" - I can only speak for myself .
Just watch the mid day news.
50,000 for a clean up afterwards.
Several millions of Euros lost by way of trade and the damage to private property thereafter.
There have been calls for an enquiry into the march and disturbances.
Seems that people came out from pubs and joined in , looters took davantage of this as well.
Garda some say they should have waded in earlier on , others saying they should have had more men .

It is a national monument of enormous significance, Orangemen or anyone carrying union jacks are not to be allowed march past it
I have to ask there a law ? Where did this come from , I can understand your views but the "are not allowed".
This Union jack Flag - not a regular occurance.
I do recall years ago Ian paisley standing on the steps of the GPO giving out leaflets and singing . ( Honestly , it took me to the fair even then).
The 'to me' is the operative term here. These things are of general importance not individual fancy
Not making this remark to you Basil , and don't take it as such but generally you will find that its folks who are passionate or on the extremes that care most about these "things of general importance" - to a lot of people the importance is limited.

[Basil Fawlty]

50,000 for a clean up afterwards.
Several millions of Euros lost by way of trade and the damage to private property thereafter.I can see where your priorities lie. :p
Don't worry, that will all be covered by insurance.
I have to ask there a law ? Where did this come from , I can understand your views but the "are not allowed".That's right, not allowed. If the state here is too compromised and suppine to do its duty then the people just have to do what needs to be done: prevent Orangemen from marching past the GPO.
This Union jack Flag - not a regular occurance.And not something that is likely to be attempted again for a long time. :222:
I do recall years ago Ian paisley standing on the steps of the GPO giving out leaflets and singing . ( Honestly , it took me to the fair even then).He pulled that stunt in the small hours. He would not have lived if he had attempted that if anyone was around.

Not making this remark to you Basil , and don't take it as such but generally you will find that its folks who are passionate or on the extremes that care most about these "things of general importance" - to a lot of people the importance is limited.I think you misunderstand me here. I meant that political matters by defintion are of general importance.

[cerberus]

I can see where your priorities lie.
Don't worry, that will all be covered by insurance.
Must be my Jewish side .:p
(Don't mention the "H" , I (almost) did but I think I got away with it");)

Even if it is covered by insurance preiums go up or tax euros pay for it.
That's right, not allowed.
There is a law ?
If so what is it ? Just curious.
If the state here is too compromised and suppine to do its duty then the people just have to do what needs to be done: prevent Orangemen from marching past the GPO.

Somehow I don't think everyone will go down that road Basil.
If that is "what has to be done" I don't think you will have a great deal of support.

Can't see it either one way or the other - its hardly likely to become " a traditional route".

Political matters are usually of great importance - the members of the press , Garda , shop owners and buisness people might , and with good reason look upon the whole sorry carry on as politcal with a small p.
Again speaking for myself its a wasted experience from start to finish.

[Felix the Cat]

http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/feb2006/04_gardaline.jpg

http://www.indymedia.ie/cache/imagecache/local/attachments/feb2006/460_0___30_0_0_0_0_0_burning_car.jpg

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[cerberus]

I make that 6,000 words cowcube.

[Will Scarlet]

http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/1273/072971l9tt.th.jpg (http://img480.imageshack.us/my.php?image=072971l9tt.jpg)
"Has no caste, no sect, no nation any rights that the infallible, ultramontane Roman Irish Catholic is bound to respect?"

http://www.ashp.cuny.edu/video/images/f-12c.jpg





Some things never change. In other words, niggers will be niggers.

[Basil Fawlty]

Don't feed the troll.

[Will Scarlet]

Troll? No, I'm deadly serious.

Oh! You didn't think that when I said "niggers," I was talking about the Irish people as a whole, do you? No, no... Geez, you people are so touchy!

Anyway, I'm really talking about the kind of idiots (of whatever nationality or ideological stripe) who would burn down their own town because someone they didn't like wanted to walk through. :rolleyes:

Glasgow didn't go up in flames a few months ago when "Irish Nationalists" held a triumphalist parade under the auspices of Cairde na hEireann and such charitable organizations as the "Crossmaglen Snipers."
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/3804/provowannabesinbritfatigues4ak.jpg

Nice British fatigues those would be assassins are decked out in...

Sure, a few things may have been thrown at the stalwart Snipers, some rude things may have been said, but the people of Glasgow didn't shit where they sleep like certain other parties tend to do. No, instead they contented themselves with the fact that come July, many thousands more will turn out be-sashed, austere, and dignified.

But the multiplicity of nations is a wondrous thing, is it not?

[Basil Fawlty]

Troll? No, I'm deadly serious.I doubt it.
Oh! You didn't think that when I said "niggers," I was talking about the Irish people as a whole, do you? No, no... Geez, you people are so touchy!Palpable cynicism there, "you people".
Anyway, I'm really talking about the kind of idiots (of whatever nationality or ideological stripe) who would burn down their own town because someone they didn't like wanted to walk through. :rolleyes:There's a bit more to it than that.

Glasgow didn't go up in flames a few months ago when "Irish Nationalists" held a triumphalist parade under the auspices of Cairde na hEireann and such charitable organizations as the "Crossmaglen Snipers."This isnot the correct analogy. Try this: a group of non-British citizens dressed in Nazi uniforms marching past the Cenotaph in London.. Do you think that would be a nice peaceful day?
Nice British fatigues those would be assassins are decked out in... Imitating the real assasins who officially wear those uniforms perhaps.
Sure, a few things may have been thrown at the stalwart Snipers, some rude things may have been said, but the people of Glasgow didn't shit where they sleep like certain other parties tend to do. No, instead they contented themselves with the fact that come July, many thousands more will turn out be-sashed, austere, and dignified. Glasgow has both communities as resident. Dublin is the capital of a foreign country, which they despise, and as the Orangemen are endlessly reminding us. What makes them think they have the right to march in a foreign country past its equivalent of the Cenotaph?

[Will Scarlet]

This isnot the correct analogy. Try this: a group of non-British citizens dressed in Nazi uniforms marching past the Cenotaph in London.. Do you think that would be a nice peaceful day?

Would the day be totally peaceful? Perhaps not. But do you really think Londoners would burn down their own city over it? I doubt it.

Besides, a better analogy to the Love Ulster march would be if a group of Dresdeners walked past the Cenotaph to peacefully commemorate their relatives killed during the firebombing.

Imitating the real assasins who officially wear those uniforms perhaps.

That's how the Provo assassins of South Armagh were decking themselves out?

Glasgow has both communities as resident. Dublin is the capital of a foreign country, which they despise, and as the Orangemen are endlessly reminding us. What makes them think they have the right to march in a foreign country past its equivalent of the Cenotaph?

Dublin used to have both communities as residents until one was driven out, but that's ancient history. Anyway, do you honestly think people didn't come from the Republic of Ireland to march in Glasgow, the heart of a foreign country which they despise, as the "Irish Nationalists" are endlessly reminding us? What makes them think they have the right to march in Britain?

But whatever. It's just a relief to see that the good people of Glasgow weren't stupid enough to burn down their own town, as were the darling "Irish Nationalists," who have overwhelmingly demonstrated a historical tendency to shit where they sleep. Never been known for their acumen or self-discipline, have they?

[cerberus]

Basil.
Thanks for the rub , for one who is ignoring me you are making the odd comment.
"5/10 must try harder" .

You still have not told me about the law - you know the one Union Jacks and the GPO ?

I find the whole para military hype of uniforms and bands mildly amusuing - its all an idiot brigade's day as far as I am concerned. ( No matter who is waving the "fleg" or beating the drum.

[Basil Fawlty]

Would the day be totally peaceful? Perhaps not. But do you really think Londoners would burn down their own city over it? I doubt it.Probabkly if the cops were trtying to protect the marchers. Any, a few cars is hardly "burning down a city."

Besides, a better analogy to the Love Ulster march would be if a group of Dresdeners walked past the Cenotaph to peacefully commemorate their relatives killed during the firebombing. No this is a terrible analogy. Mine is the correct one. The Orange Order is a sectarian organisation that exists for the purpose of sustaining loyalist hegemony over the North. Many of its members were and continue to be members of the UDA/UVF/LVF/UDR/RUC. The so-called Love Ulster organisation is another sectarian sham and also literally a lie (the British/loyalist bombings of 1974 hit Dublin but also Monaghan which is one of the nine counties of Ulster. Some of the people being "commemorated" were involved in such things as well as serial killers like Robert McConnell, so spare us the crocodile tears:
Loyalists may carry Dublin bomber pictures (http://dailyireland.televisual.co.uk/home.tvt?_ticket=3XGDALOLO9M2TRRIVPWF9NTHLZIZBHSJ7TRFOOQAFN0ECNN9CHVRG13EIOQNANSEANYAIGSGW4WQHONCN2WDALNNFIRGUT4MPNNADYNWNKLAFUTGYVQFIRY4X9SEAOY9CHYKTRRLRNNADY6AY8ERM&_scope=DailyIreland/Content/News&id=24575&opp=1)

by Ciarán Barnes

23/02/2006

Organisers of a loyalist march through Dublin have said they cannot guarantee that images of a man accused of murdering 26 people in the city will not not be displayed during the demonstration.
Speaking to Daily Ireland yesterday, Love Ulster organiser Willie Frazer said: “I can’t give a guarantee a photograph of Robert McConnell will not be carried because I wouldn’t be against anyone carrying Robert’s photograph.”
Robert McConnell was a dual member of the Ulster Defence Regiment and Ulster Volunteer Force. He murdered scores of Catholics in the 1970s.
He played a part in the 1974 Dublin and Monaghan bombings in which 33 people died. Twenty-six died in the Dublin attack.
Speaking in 1999, John Weir, a former member of the RUC with whom Robert McConnell went on murder missions, implicated him in a further eight killings.
The mass murderer was shot dead by the IRA in 1976. Images of him have been carried at previous rallies organised by Mr Frazer’s victims group Families Acting for Innocent Relatives.
Despite the weight of evidence linking McConnell to at least 41 sectarian murders, Mr Frazer defended the killer’s reputation.
“Anybody I know who knew Robert would say there is no way he was involved in anything. He was involved with the security forces and he helped the SAS and stuff like that but a lot of people would say that was just part of his job,” said Mr Frazer.
Relatives of those murdered in the Dublin and Monaghan bombings criticised Mr Frazer. Margaret Irwin of the Justice for the Forgotten group said his defence of McConnell was “very insensitive”.
She said: “We have very good information that McConnell was involved with the gang who we are convinced carried out the Dublin and Monaghan bombings.
“We believe McConnell was involved in up to 55 murders. There can be no doubt he was heavily involved with loyalist paramilitaries.”
Up to 1,000 loyalists and six bands are expected to take part in Saturday’s Love Ulster parade along O’Connell Street. The march is to start at 12.30pm and is expected to last one hour.
Orange Order members will take part but will not wear sashes or collarettes.
Yesterday morning, Republican Sinn Féin held a press conference in Dublin at which the party unveiled plans to protest against the march. The Continuity IRA has also vowed to disrupt the parade.
Love Ulster held a victims rally in Belfast last October. The event was widely criticised because it failed to give any mention to those who had suffered at the hands of loyalists and the state.
Loyalists paramilitaries such as Ulster Defence Association leader Jackie McDonald helped launch the Love Ulster campaign last September. That's how the Provo assassins of South Armagh were decking themselves out?Who are you referring to now?
Dublin used to have both communities as residents until one was driven out, but that's ancient history.No, its just a plain lie. No one was driven out. (we have already been through this on IN under one of your other online identities where you have had your head handed on this and many other related issues.
Anyway, do you honestly think people didn't come from the Republic of Ireland to march in Glasgow, the heart of a foreign country which they despise, as the "Irish Nationalists" are endlessly reminding us? What makes them think they have the right to march in Britain?Because most of them were born there of third and fourth generation Irish, so they enjoy the same rights as British subjects.
But whatever. It's just a relief to see that the good people of Glasgow weren't stupid enough to burn down their own town, as were the darling "Irish Nationalists," who have overwhelmingly demonstrated a historical tendency to shit where they sleep. Never been known for their acumen or self-discipline, have they?You're so obvious in your trolling. What's wrong, still smarting from the paddlings you received from us?

[Will Scarlet]

Probabkly if the cops were trtying to protect the marchers. Any, a few cars is hardly "burning down a city."

And shops and postal boxes and... They shut down commerce for a day for a number of their fellow Irishmen trying to do an honest day's business.


No this is a terrible analogy. Mine is the correct one. The Orange Order is a sectarian organisation that exists for the purpose of sustaining loyalist hegemony over the North.

Even if this true, it doesn't change the fact that the people who caused violence that day were memebers of 'sectarian' organizations that exist for the purpose of obtaining "Irish Nationalist" hegemony over the North.

See, I can make use of the bullshite 'sectarianism' talk, too. It doesn't really fool anyone, though, except those who are already so slow that they buy into such orwellian, 'Irish-ly Correct' tactics for controlling discourse.

Many of its members were and continue to be members of the UDA/UVF/LVF/UDR/RUC. The so-called Love Ulster organisation is another sectarian sham and also literally a lie (the British/loyalist bombings of 1974 hit Dublin but also Monaghan which is one of the nine counties of Ulster.


You people demand the right of Sinn Fein, the political branch of the PIRA, an organization which has for decades engaged in a wholesale slaughter of human beings across the globe, to be involved in government in part of the United Kingdom, yet you won't even allow people who may have connections to some paramilitary organizations to walk down the street in Dublin.


Who are you referring to now?

The provo snipers active in South Armagh not so many years ago -- you know, the ones being idolized by that group of wannabes calling themselves the "Crossmaglen Snipers" and parading through the streets of Britain sporting the tricolour and a variety of 'sectarian' flags, singing 'sectarian' songs, chanting 'sectarian' chants, and generally making asses out of themselves.

No, its just a plain lie. No one was driven out.

Bullshit. I've already dealt with the campaign of violence and intimidation which drove Irish Unionists to flee the country for the safety of the UK on this forum and elsewhere.

(we have already been through this on IN under one of your other online identities where you have had your head handed on this and many other related issues.

I've never once visited IN, and this only the second time you and I have engaged in discourse. The first time was when I took on the whole crew of eurotrash over at Herpes.

Because most of them were born there of third and fourth generation Irish, so they enjoy the same rights as British subjects.

And you think no Irish citizens were in attendance? :rolleyes:


You're so obvious in your trolling. What's wrong, still smarting from the paddlings you received from us?

Feel free to call me a troll if you think that'll be enough to keep you from showing your ass on this thread, but anyone here with half a brain can see that you're making excuses for skullduggery on the part of the so-called "Irish Nationalists" after they set their own capital city on fire to prevent someone from having their say.

[Will Scarlet]

Observe the mafia-style political shakedown racket that is "Irish Republicanism":


RSF called for protests in newspaper last week

~~~~~~~~

Kitty Holland

Protest warning: Republican Sinn Féin last week called on its followers "to oppose the loyalist march due to take place through the centre of Dublin".

In a statement issued last Wednesday, and carried in its newspaper Saoirse, the party's president, Ruairí Ó Brádaigh, set out three reasons why the Love Ulster parade should be opposed. He called on party supporters to assemble at the Parnell monument "before the loyalist march on February 25th".

RSF claimed the purpose of the parade was "very definitely part of a softening-up process for an official visit to Dublin by an English queen claiming part of Ireland".

Mr Ó Bradaigh added that "on the 90th anniversary of the 1916 Rising the siren voices tell Republicans to ignore this loyalist march".

In a statement yesterday, the party's vice-president, Des Dalton, said the violence showed "how out of touch the 26-County political establishment was with the depth of opposition to the routing of a loyalist march through Dublin".

Mr Dalton claimed "the people of Dublin" had shown "their rejection of the ideology of sectarian hatred and bigotry represented by those who organised this march. The routing of such a march through Dublin was a completely irresponsible act with scant thought given to the consequences or the dangers it posed to people."

He said there was a "gulf" between "the 26-county political establishment and the views of ordinary Irish people".



Look at this clear example of extortion. This mafioso 'movement' has had lots of practice at it.

"Irish Republicans" accuse a group of people who want to walk down the street of being hateful and bigoted, then call on their followers to violently attack them. Fait accompli, "Irish Republicans" then blame the state for not preventing the violence that "Irish Republicans" themselves ordered. Might as well have demanded some protection money while they were at it.

And here come their shills to make mealy-mouthed excuses for them...

[cerberus]

Any, a few cars is hardly "burning down a city."

Easy to say when its not your car being burnt or your business being damaged.

[Basil Fawlty]

Easy to say when its not your car being burnt or your business being damaged.That's irrelevant and there is insurance for that sort of thing. Also, you are coming to the wrong person looking for sympathy for businesses disrupted.

At the end of the day, responibility falls on the politicos who allowed the march to go ahead, knowing damn well what the outcome would be.

[Jonathan]

GRC is clearly blowing this out of all proportions to further his own aims. We are talking about a group of 300 or so individuals, who went on riot. RSF have about 30 members in Dublin, not 300. Furthermore, there was an anti-Capitalism rally there as well (the same crowd as the “Reclaim the Streets” group from last year presumably). You have not taken into consideration the 3 million or so Irish people who didn’t budge, or the Government who authorised the march. You persist in calling these people “the Irish Nationalists” without ever providing evidence to back that up. You persist in claiming that Protestants were driven out of Dublin, without providing evidence. You persist in claiming that you’ve proven that Protestants were driven out, when you haven’t. You haven’t touched the old Debate in the Ulster-Scots thread which you didn’t admit to losing…

Anything else?

[Will Scarlet]

As predicted, Shill #1 comes to make excuses for political extortion by the "Irish Republican" mafia:


At the end of the day, responibility falls on the politicos who allowed the march to go ahead, knowing damn well what the outcome would be.

See above. "Irish Republicans" order violence, then blame government for not preventing said violence.

Transparent and shameful. Only idiots and liars won't admit that this is the case.

[Will Scarlet]

Shill #2 has his say:

GRC is clearly blowing this out of all proportions to further his own aims. We are talking about a group of 300 or so individuals, who went on riot. RSF have about 30 members in Dublin, not 300.

Haven't you people put all those welfare euros you've been leeching to good use building roadways so people can more effectively travel around the island?

You have not taken into consideration the 3 million or so Irish people who didn’t budge, or the Government who authorised the march.

That's because I'm discussing the so-called "Irish Republicans" who ordered the violence.

You persist in calling these people “the Irish Nationalists” without ever providing evidence to back that up.

The "Irish Republican" organization known as Republican Sinn Fein publicly called for resistance by any means to this march. A sizable group of people answered that call. Republican Sinn Fein then blamed the government for the violence.

One again: Transparent and shameful. Only idiots and liars won't admit it.

Which are you?

You persist in claiming that Protestants were driven out of Dublin, without providing evidence.

First of all, I made no mention of Protestants. I spoke of Unionists. And if you're trying to tell us that there were never any Unionists in Dublin during previous centuries, you're an even bigger liar than I thought.

Secondly, the word "persist" has no place here, as this is the first time I have mentioned the Unionist community of Dublin specifically.

You persist in claiming that you’ve proven that Protestants were driven out, when you haven’t.

Sure I have. We've previously discussed facts and figures, as demonstrated on the following charts and maps:

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/charts/declining_prot_1891_1991.gif
http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/maps/island_protestants_1861_1991.gif

We've also discussed the campaigns of violence and intimidation which took place in various regions of Ireland, causing large numbers of Protestants to migrate for their own safety and security.

You, sir, are the one who persists in denying the facts of history, in essence denying the decrees of your own religion which, in papal encylicals and such frightening fascist codes of law as the Syllabus of Errors, make it clear that freedom of religion is not an option in "Catholic Countries" and that there is no room for Protestantism there.

Remember, Mikey, that these events took place long before the reforms of Vatican II, when people had fewer qualms about using violence to do the will of Rome.

Which is not to say that modern "Irish Nationalists" have many qualms about using violence in pursuit of ethnic cleansing, as many decades of "Brits out!" firebombs in Ulster amply demonstrate.

You haven’t touched the old Debate in the Ulster-Scots thread which you didn’t admit to losing…

Because a.) I didn't lose it and b.) I quickly got tired of dancing around for months upon months upon months in a circular semantic debate over the meaning of "indiscriminate murder" with some sick, twisted individual who persists in offering up excuses for mass killings without regard to nationality, religion, or political affiliation.

Moreover, I was disgusted by your attempt to turn what was intended to be a thread celebrating the history and culture of the Ulster Scots into some mythological "Irish Nationlist" demonization of them.

Anything else?

Yes: Shame on you.

[Basil Fawlty]

As predicted, Shill #1 comes to make excuses for political extortion by the "Irish Republican" mafiaWho gives a toss about your anti-Irish sentiment? You have no idea what you are talking about anyway, as Shane has pointed out.
See above. "Irish Republicans" order violence, then blame government for not preventing said violence. They didn't "order" anything - they are hardly in the position to do that. The government was in the position of ordering the march suspended. Theyd didn;t so responisbilioty falls to them. They allowed it to go ahead so that prats like you could have more opportunities of tut-tutting over Irish republicans.
Transparent and shameful. Only idiots and liars won't admit that this is the case.It is transparent and shameful that the government here allowed a riot to occur in order to score political points.

Anyway, its hardly any of your business one way or the other.

[Will Scarlet]

Who gives a toss about your anti-Irish sentiment?

You must, since you bothered to reply. Besides, I wouldn't describe it as "anti-Irish." I'd call it for what it is: "anti Irish imperialist."

You have no idea what you are talking about anyway, as Shane has pointed out.


Shane hasn't done anything except try to keep us going in circles arguing definitions in order to distract us from the bigger picture.


They didn't "order" anything - they are hardly in the position to do that.

They called for it, and people like you who sympathize with their aims answered the call.


The government was in the position of ordering the march suspended. Theyd didn;t so responisbilioty falls to them. They allowed it to go ahead so that prats like you could have more opportunities of tut-tutting over Irish republicans. It is transparent and shameful that the government here allowed a riot to occur in order to score political points.

Cute conspiracy theory you've got there.

Anyway, its hardly any of your business one way or the other.

So I'm not allowed to have my say in defense of my kinsmen? And yet you lot constantly run to so-called "Oirish-Americans" for monetary and propagandistic support?

Laughable...

[Basil Fawlty]

You must, since you bothered to reply.For the sake of the gallery, certainly not for your sake. Besides, I wouldn't describe it as "anti-Irish." I'd call it for what it is: "anti Irish imperialist."Some oxymoronic trolling device of your own invention no doubt.
Shane hasn't done anything except try to keep us going in circles arguing definitions in order to distract us from the bigger picture. Unlike you, he knows Irish history quite well.

Your 19th century stats for Protestants in the south are useless. Most of them were involved with the colonial administration and the army and left with its departure, a la India and everywhere else.
They called for it, and people like you who sympathize with their aims answered the call.They rightly called for people to oppose the presence of Orangemen in Dublin streets and especially anywhere near the GPO.
Cute conspiracy theory you've got there.No consipiracy at all. Everyone knew this would happen if they were allowed to come down.
So I'm not allowed to have my say in defense of my kinsmen?You are one of them alright. Switching on the hypocritical victimage, like those so-called "Love Ulster" hypocrites.
And yet you lot constantly run to so-called "Oirish-Americans" for monetary and propagandistic support?No one runs to Irish-America except those southern jarveys who have tried to persuade them not to support the IRA. Most of the resistance movements since the 1840's came out of Irish-America. They have a keen sense of why they are there and not here.

[cerberus]

Basil , its very easy to say - I have just said it.

I once heard a car thief say the same thing regarding insurance - you forget people pay insurance and insurance preiums always go up when you claim and you almost always never quite get covered for the actual loss.
It is very easy to say when the loss is not yours.
As far as buisness losses go , people run them to make a living , they have a right to do so.
I am not looking to you for anything.
Considering Shanes neutral answer on the riot and your willingness to use Shane's point's to beat GRC , it makes me thing why are you defending the disorder and the rioters ?

You wouldn't be in some way a bigot would you ?
( No you are always balancedand even handed in your approach ).

My view is very simple Basil - the rioters had no right to behave as they did and they must be responsible for thier own actions as individuals.

As far as the Goverment of the day goes - had they banned it on the grounds of public order - they would have been branded accordingly.

Republican Sinn Fein publicly called for resistance by any means to this march. A sizable group of people answered that call. Republican Sinn Fein then blamed the government for the violence.


What is the background to this ?
Did RSF call for resistance to the march ?

Basil you mentioned a law - twice I have asked you to clarify this law , twice you have ignored me.
I am now asking you for a third time ?
Does a law exist which , which says there is a ban on a Union Flag being carried past the GPO in Dublin ?
It is very simple Basil , either there is or there is not . If there is can you please post up edtails , if there is not will you please say that there is not and that you just got carried away or made it up.

[Basil Fawlty]

Basil you mentioned a law - twice I have asked you to clarify this law , twice you have ignored me.
I am now asking you for a third time ?
Does a law exist which , which says there is a ban on a Union Flag being carried past the GPO in Dublin ?
It is very simple Basil , either there is or there is not . If there is can you please post up edtails , if there is not will you please say that there is not and that you just got carried away or made it up.I never mentioned a law, I said it is not permitted. Something that cannot be allowed to happen whether there is a law not.

You yourself laud people in NS Germany for opposing the laws there in pursuit of what they believed to be right.

Anyway, I thought you were supposed to be ignoring me. :nono: :rolleyes:

[Will Scarlet]

For the sake of the gallery, certainly not for your sake.


"The gallery" can easily see who's coming out roses here, and it ain't you, bubba.


Some oxymoronic trolling device of your own invention no doubt.

No, it's an accurate description of the "Irish Nationalist" drive to conquer and subdue the other nation inhabiting the island of Hibernia in the name of some mythological 'United Ireland'.

Some would refer to it as "irredentism" rather than "imperialism," but "irredentism" implies that it was once part of a 'United Ireland' in the first place, and since such an entity has never really existed, I find "irredentism" to be a less-than-accurate descriptor of the phenomenon.

Unlike you, he knows Irish history quite well.

Or at least the mythologized version of Irish "history" as taught in Irish schools.

Your 19th century stats for Protestants in the south are useless. Most of them were involved with the colonial administration and the army and left with its departure, a la India and everywhere else.

False. Shane and I have previously discussed the intimidation of, for example, Protestant farmers in Cork. These people, while clearly in the minority, were not part of some mythological, hierarchical structure of 'British Oppression' or some "colonial administration."

They, like thousands upon thousands of other ordinary Irishmen, simply adhered to a different religious calling (predominantly Church of Ireland) than the majority population, and people like yourself made them suffer for it.

They rightly called for people to oppose the presence of Orangemen in Dublin streets and especially anywhere near the GPO.

What they did was call for thuggery and semi-organized hooliganism to prevent people from having a parade. This is, of course, nothing new. The same thing happens all over Northern Ireland every July.

No consipiracy at all. Everyone knew this would happen if they were allowed to come down.

"Everyone knew" because "Irish Republicans" were on TV and in the papers calling people out for just that purpose.

Then, when it happened, they turned around and said, "We told you so!"

It's extortion, plain and simple.

You are one of them alright. Switching on the hypocritical victimage, like those so-called "Love Ulster" hypocrites.

So Protestants and Unionists aren't allowed to mourn their dead? Only "Irish Nationalists" have that right?

No one runs to Irish-America except those southern jarveys who have tried to persuade them not to support the IRA.

Then why are Gerry and Marty and company always over here giving speeches and appearing at fund-raising dinners?

Pull the other one, Fawlty...

[Will Scarlet]

What is the background to this ?
Did RSF call for resistance to the march ?



Yes, they issued a statement a week before the protest calling for people to resist the march.

They put forth another cute little conspiracy theory: That the parade was "very definitely part of a softening-up process for an official visit to Dublin by an English queen claiming part of Ireland".

"Irish Nationalists" live in a fantasy world. They remind me of Afrocentric Black Nationalists in the extent to which their mythology of oppression has become real for them.

[Basil Fawlty]

"The gallery" can easily see who's coming out roses here, and it ain't you, bubba.So you have privileged access to the minds of other readers?
No, it's an accurate description of the "Irish Nationalist" drive to conquer and subdue the other nation inhabiting the island of Hibernia in the name of some mythological 'United Ireland'.This is utter tripe and further confirms the view that you are trolling. Actually it was your cousins back in the 17th century who were planted in Ulster invloving expropriation of the Irish. If anyone is involved in imperialism it is they and their British sponsors. We seek the reunification of our country and the departure of the British once and for all.
Or at least the mythologized version of Irish "history" as taught in Irish schools.You have no idea what is taught in schools here. I doubt you have even set foot on the island or indeed ever intend to!
False. You are the one uttering falsehoods. The British army presence here alone was half a million, with admin comprising something similar. Add to that families and camp followers and it all adds up. You are denying that if you persist with your nonsensical claims.
They, like thousands upon thousands of other ordinary Irishmen, simply adhered to a different religious calling (predominantly Church of Ireland) than the majority population, and people like yourself made them suffer for it. If you want to go down that road, how about all of us who are not CoI sue the CoI for return of the tithes that were squeezed out of our ancestors to support this colonial religion - adjusted for interest and appreciation of course.
So Protestants and Unionists aren't allowed to mourn their dead? Only "Irish Nationalists" have that right?They can mourn their dead (including serial killers like Robert McConnell) in their own streets, they are not welcome in Dublin or in any Irish part of the country north or south.

I think the Irish have been most magnanimous in granting these colonialist's decendants the right to stay on the island.

Then why are Gerry and Marty and company always over here giving speeches and appearing at fund-raising dinners?Because they were invited.

[cerberus]

Orangemen or anyone carrying union jacks are not to be allowed march past it
I see - no law against it - no problem.
There is a law against the damage to property and the assult on members of the garda and the press which took place ?
This you are willing to over look as it serves your idea about unions jacks never being allowed to pass the GPO ?

This " Love Ulster" movement - I can't buy into any more than I buy into some plan by the Irish goverment allowing it so as to get at PSF.

Interesting article in todays "Sunday Times" worth reading - concerns on how sporting tops ( in this caase celtic tops) are being used to efine and identity to which the clubs and supporters clubs would rather they are not.
An age old political and less than cultural aspect of Ireland / Northern Ireland. (There I go Basil - "a well intentioned Brit") .
Whilst the article centred around Celtic tops as seen in the Dublin disturbances , I am mindful of the search for a youngman wearing a Celtic top who was seen to be so helpful and active in helping at the scene of the Omagh bomb.

There is no doubt that people misuse flags and emblems to create and promote their own identity , sporting colours and national flags are often little more than "flags of convience" for their own bigoted agenda.
The victims of 30 years are being "used" in the same way.
As for carrying photographs of men who claimed lives - from the populations of of Dublin and Monaghan - I see that as an insult.
The people killed by bombs in Dublin and Monaghan are very bit as much "victims" as any relatives of anyone talking place in the " love Ulster" march.

It would sem that quite a few of the rioters came from the local pubs - some had been watching celtic being defeated - some were wearing team colours.

Either way I won't be applauding the actions of either marchers or rioters, nor will I be calling the Irish goverment into the dock, they didn't pull any strings.

Yes - I know we are supposed to be ignoring each other.:p :argue: :p

[Will Scarlet]

So you have privileged access to the minds of other readers?

No, but it's quite clear that you don't have a leg to stand on.

This is utter tripe and further confirms the view that you are trolling.

I like the way you characterize any pointy of view that disagrees with yours as "trolling," especially if the poster in question is getting the better of you. :)

Actually it was your cousins back in the 17th century who were planted in Ulster invloving expropriation of the Irish.

Here we witness the amazing tendency among "Irish Nationalists" to ignore the entirety of the history of Ulster prior to the Plantation. They conveniently forget that there were people in Ulster before it was gaelicized, that these people held kinship with peoples on the other side of the North Channel, that there has been a constant and steady flow of peoples across said channel for millenia, that at times there have been political entities spanning both sides of said channel, and that they have been, more often than not, at odds with the rest of the island.

But "Irish Nationalists" like to ignore all of this, and insist that the history of Ulster began with the Plantation, which supposedly disrupted some 'United Ireland' which never actually existed, except for when the island was entirely under British governance.

If anyone is involved in imperialism it is they and their British sponsors. We seek the reunification of our country and the departure of the British once and for all.


"[R]eunificiation" implies that it was once unified. Additionally, such a drive implies that the Gaelic peoples of Ireland have some native right to the lands of Ulster that Britons do not, despite the fact that Brythonnic peoples inhabited it first.

You have no idea what is taught in schools here.

It's plain to see that it isn't always the truth.

I doubt you have even set foot on the island or indeed ever intend to!

You may be wrong on both counts. The Internet may never know.

You are the one uttering falsehoods. The British army presence here alone was half a million, with admin comprising something similar. Add to that families and camp followers and it all adds up. You are denying that if you persist with your nonsensical claims.

First of all, your source for the half a million number?

Secondly, are you taking into account the large number of native Irishmen of varying religions who were members of the British Army and the colonial administration?

According to offical Republic of Ireland census figures, the Protestant population of the 26 counties now comprising the Republic stood at 328,850 in 1901. It is foolish to insist that these people were all members of the army or colonial administration, especially considering the well documented fact that ordinary Protestant citizens have personally attested to being the victims of violent campaigns of intimidation designed to drive them out.

Hart, for one, discusses this as it occurred in Cork in his book The IRA and Its Enemies: Violence and Community in Cork, 1916-1923.

If you want to go down that road, how about all of us who are not CoI sue the CoI for return of the tithes that were squeezed out of our ancestors to support this colonial religion - adjusted for interest and appreciation of course.

As if Britain hasn't ultimately given you far more than they've ever taken...

They can mourn their dead (including serial killers like Robert McConnell) in their own streets, they are not welcome in Dublin or in any Irish part of the country north or south.

First of all, let's just clarify that there are two countries on the island of Hibernia. Understand that simple fact? Good.

Now then, do you think that it's OK for "Irish Nationalists" to march the streets of Britain dressed in paramilitary uniforms, sporting 'sectarian' flags, and singing 'sectarian' songs, as recently happened in Glasgow in commemoration of the handful of rioters killed on 'Bloody Sunday'?

If so, then why do you not extend the same courtesy to a group of people who simply wanted to walk down the street in Dublin, having agreed to go without paramilitary uniforms or 'sectarian' songs, in commemoration of the many thousands of innocent people killed by "Irish Nationalists" over the past few decades?

I think the Irish have been most magnanimous in granting these colonialist's decendants the right to stay on the island.

Hardly. You've tried everything in your power to drive them out. You've killed and maimed and spread vicious lies. Still, their inner resolve and intestinal fortitude is such that you have failed in your goals. The Ulstermen are a truly remarkable people, the salt of the earth and men with iron backbones.

Such a pack of ruffians as yourselves cannot compare.

[cerberus]

They put forth another cute little conspiracy theory: That the parade was "very definitely part of a softening-up process for an official visit to Dublin by an English queen claiming part of Ireland".


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
"You can not be serious":eek:

I think the Irish have been most magnanimous in granting these colonialist's decendants the right to stay on the island.

Basil , if this is meant to be a serious political comment you are utterly amazing , if not a little mad.:p
On a serious note just going to watch see BBC-2 8.00pm - suggest you do likewise.

[Will Scarlet]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
"You can not be serious":eek:



Serious as a heart attack. That's from the official RSF statement as quoted in The Irish Times.

[Will Scarlet]

Well, gentlemen, as entertaining as it's been to hang around and watch Basil get bent out of shape, I'm going to walk up on the ridgeline and take the cool highland air. 'Tis good for what ails ye.

Good day to you both.

[Basil Fawlty]

Well, gentlemen, as entertaining as it's been to hang around and watch Basil get bent out of shape, I'm going to walk up on the ridgeline and take the cool highland air. 'Tis good for what ails ye.

Good day to you both.Very good, don't stop when you reach the edge. :p

[Basil Fawlty]

No, but it's quite clear that you don't have a leg to stand on.Hollow rhetoric.
I like the way you characterize any pointy of view that disagrees with yours as "trolling," especially if the poster in question is getting the better of you. :)
No, I only describe your posts here on this thread as trolling, no one else, anywhere. Dream on if you believe you are getting anywhere.
Here we witness the amazing tendency among "Irish Nationalists" to ignore the entirety of the history of Ulster prior to the Plantation. They conveniently forget that there were people in Ulster before it was gaelicized, that these people held kinship with peoples on the other side of the North Channel, that there has been a constant and steady flow of peoples across said channel for millenia, that at times there have been political entities spanning both sides of said channel, and that they have been, more often than not, at odds with the rest of the island.Poppycock, the whole island was inhabited before the arrival of the Celts in the 7th to 6th century BC.
This is the kind of drooling idiocy that the Loyalists have been cooking up of late. Ulster was partly extirpated and planted because that was the historic bastion of resistance against English rule and still is. This new Orange line is a desperate ploy by a living anachronism clutching at straws.
But "Irish Nationalists" like to ignore all of this, and insist that the history of Ulster began with the Plantation,No one sasy such a thing. which supposedly disrupted some 'United Ireland' which never actually existed, except for when the island was entirely under British governance. Ireland was united in its Gaelic culture and sytem, only an ignorant fool would say differently.
It's plain to see that it isn't always the truth. How can you see into the classrooms from thousands of miles away?
You may be wrong on both counts. The Internet may never know.I'm right on one count and will be probably be right on the second count. A word of friendly advice if you ever are foolish enough to come over: don't ventilate your "opinions" anywhere outside of an Orange meeting hall. It would all end in tears. That kind of thing is all very well from the safety of one's internet connection, but it doesn't translate into the real world too well.
First of all, your source for the half a million number? I'm sure Shane will have it to hand, its so long since I looked. However, if you insist I will drag it up from somewhere.
Secondly, are you taking into account the large number of native Irishmen of varying religions who were members of the British Army and the colonial administration? I'm talking about the ones that left when the Brits pulled out.

According to offical Republic of Ireland census figures, the Protestant population of the 26 counties now comprising the Republic stood at 328,850 in 1901.I see, the RoI was carrying out a censusin 1901. Interesting.
It is foolish to insist that these people were all members of the army or colonial administration, especially considering the well documented fact that ordinary Protestant citizens have personally attested to being the victims of violent campaigns of intimidation designed to drive them out.
A few large absentee landlords with bad reputations from Famine times had their Big Houses torched, but most were unmolested and many still live here. You really are in fantasy land with this stuff.
As if Britain hasn't ultimately given you far more than they've ever taken... Britain has brought nothing but misery here.

There is on this island one partial state and a piece of territory currently under enemy occupation.
Now then, do you think that it's OK for "Irish Nationalists" to march the streets of Britain dressed in paramilitary uniforms, sporting 'sectarian' flags, and singing 'sectarian' songs, as recently happened in Glasgow in commemoration of the handful of rioters killed on 'Bloody Sunday'?I have no views on this. That is a British domestic matter.
[snip more lies]
The Ulstermen are a truly remarkable people, the salt of the earth and men with iron backbones. Iron bars up the ass? That would explain why they look permanently constipated, the Orange part of Ulster, that is.

[cerberus]

Britain has brought nothing but misery here.

There is on this island one partial state and a piece of territory currently under enemy occupation.

Basil - unfortunately you are caught in a time warp.
I have just watched a rather serious series of interviews in "Facing the Truth"
victims and perptrators of all sides meeting face to face.
The guiding hand in this process Archbishop Desmond Tutu.
Given the experinces and pain of all who part its very much at odds with your own position as seen here.
I find the isolated postion which hostility and to be quite frank - hatred - brings one to hard to fathom , it is so negative and self serving.

[cerberus]

Serious as a heart attack. That's from the official RSF statement as quoted in The Irish Times.

Perhaps HRH QE The II has heard a rumour that Dublin Corporation are going to put her grandmothers statue on eBay with a "Buy it Now" offer and she wants a quick advance "butchers" before she places a bid.:p

I really can't be bothered with bigotery and the like - I have had it right up to the back teeth - its so negative , destructive and non productive.

[Basil Fawlty]

Basil - unfortunately you are caught in a time warp.
I have just watched a rather serious series of interviews in "Facing the Truth"
victims and perptrators of all sides meeting face to face.
The guiding hand in this process Archbishop Desmond Tutu.
Given the experinces and pain of all who part its very much at odds with your own position as seen here.
I find the isolated postion which hostility and to be quite frank - hatred - brings one to hard to fathom , it is so negative and self serving.There will be time enough for all that kind of thing after the British leave. Until then it is unfinished business.

[cerberus]

Basil - the time for "that" is now over .
"Armed struggle" and "For God and Ulster" have had their day , can't say that either did much for anyone apart from as one former PIRA man said " was to fill the prisons and the graveyards".
What you don't realise is the "time" is now.

[Basil Fawlty]

Basil - the time for "that" is now over .
"Armed struggle" and "For God and Ulster" have had their day , can't say that either did much for anyone apart from as one former PIRA man said " was to fill the prisons and the graveyards".
What you don't realise is the "time" is now.It is over when the Union Jack flies only at the British Embassy in Dublin.

[cerberus]

Basil - the time for killing and burying people is over.
Funny in areas of Belfast you can still find people you have much in common with - they are waving union jacks and singing the sash in Loyalist drinking clubs.
You might think you have nothing in common with them but the mindset is the same - just alter the slogans and change the "flegs" and you would fit in quite well , could become "one of the lauds".

This whole sorry mess is one which springs from violence and bigotry bred of mindsets and accepted sterotypes.
If you have not learned this you have missed the boat on a lot of what has taken place in the past 30 years.
It may not be "over" but we are now in the end game - either we settle this and live together or we give to our children the chance to make the same bloody mistakes that were made for us.

Now you might want to stand in front of the GPO in a broad black brimmer with a mauser rifle but I have no desire to join you nor have I any wish to stand in front of stormount waiting for Carson's statue to move.
these mindsets have had there day - there has to be something better.

[Jonathan]

GRC really is one of the most pathetic posters on the internet when it comes to this issue in particular. A few facts:

1)GRC turned a propeganda piece on the Ulster-Scots into a discussion on Irish Nationalism, because he couldn't handle my commets on the Ulster-Scots, then blames me for turning it to Irish Nationalism.
2)GRC persists in using refuted material to make a point. He then travels to another thread and uses the same material claiming that it is ture (and has been proven so in the past thread - when it was in fact refuted again).
3)GRC persists in trying to insult other members when his own arguement is failing, then claims that he is winning a debate and that other posters are being bent out of shape.

The evidence is there for anyone to look at.

I will ask you a number of questions GRC:

1)What is "Irish Nationalism"?
2)What is "Irish Republicanism"?
3)Is ethnic cleansing the cause of the decline of the Protestant Population of Ireland?
4)Have Ulster and Scotland a greater connection (pre-1500) than Ulster and Connaught/Munster/Leinster and/or Scotland and Ireland?
5)Why were none of these questions answered in the thread on the Ulster-Scots where they were brought up?

and a bonus:

6)Explain how British occupation of this country has benefed the Irish people more than it has harmed them.


Oh and please, no more "I didn't have time to read...", "I quickly got sick of reading..." etc etc. If you're not fit to reply to our posts like we do for yours, then don't get involved. Otherwise, deal with the posts and don't try any of your favourite cop-outs.

[A. Radek]

It's hilarious the way 'George' keeps posting that stupid demographic map, as if the Famine, cholera epidemics, and emigration didn't in any way affect those 'percentages', especially in the northern counties, and especially after importing 'replacements' from the UK in the aftermath of the decade. He conveniently makes sure the demographic reflects population % after 1852.

In 184I the population of Ireland was given as 8,175,124; in 1851, after the famine, it had dropped to 6,552,385, and the Census Commissioners calculated that, at the normal rate of increase, the total should have been 9,018,799, so that a loss of at least 2.5 million persons had taken place. The figures available, however, must be regarded as giving only a rough indication; vital statistics are unobtainable, no record was kept of deaths, and very many persons must have died and been buried unknown, as the fever victims died and were buried in west Cork, as bodies, found lying dead on the road, were buried in ditches, and as the timid people of Erris perished unrecorded.

In the four provinces of Ireland the smallest loss of population was in Leinster, 15.5 per cent, then Ulster, 16 per cent, Connaught's loss was greatest, 28.6 per cent, and Munster lost 23.5 per cent. In some respect, death and clearance improved Ireland; between 1841 and 1851, nearly 360,000 mud huts disappeared, the greatest decrease being 81 per cent in Ulster, which then included the distressed county of Donegal, followed by Connaught, with a decrease of 74 per cent, Munster 69 per cent, and Leinster 62 per cent. Small holdings under five acres were nearly halved, and holdings over fifteen acres doubled.

No advantage, however, was taken of the reduction of small tenants, agriculture was not improved, and in 1866 Isaac Butt wrote, 'Ireland has retrograded . . .' Between 1848 and 1864, however, thirteen million pounds was sent home by emigrants in America to bring relatives out, and it is part of the famine tragedy that, because no adequate measures of reconstruction were undertaken, a steady drain of the best and most enterprising left Ireland, to enrich other countries.

http://www.nde.state.ne.us/SS/irish/unit_4.html

Now, 13 million pounds would be a tremendous amount of money for Irish emigres in the U.S. to be sending home in those decades, given the wages they were working for here and the Civil War and all. And this is after a bucnh of them died on the way or in the first winter after they arrived, and doing the most dangerous dirty work around. We do know the religion of most of those perished or left, don't we?

[Ahmadinebobina]

we're not sOrbian either.

[Jonathan]

George, you're aware that as a Supermod I can still read the post that you've deleted, yes?

I wont reply to it unless you undelete it, in which case I would have no problem replying. It says alot about you that you had it deleted in the first place.

One comment I will make on it though: In future, when I ask you a question, I expect you to back up your answer with proof.

[Ahmadinebobina]

Respect his authoritah, George.

[Will Scarlet]

George, you're aware that as a Supermod I can still read the post that you've deleted, yes?


How many times do we have to have that conversation, Mikey? Maybe you didn't notice the "Hi, Mikey" note in the 'reason for deletion' field...


I wont reply to it unless you undelete it, in which case I would have no problem replying. It says alot about you that you had it deleted in the first place.


What it says is that I'm willing to let you have the last word on the argument because trying to talk sense to Irishmen is like banging one's head against a wall, and it's not worth getting worked up over.

[Will Scarlet]

Respect his authoritah, George.


Never. :)

[Ahmadinebobina]

NOW, fiend.

[Will Scarlet]

NOW, fiend.

Yowza! Kitten with a whip...