More Irishmen taking the Queen's Shilling

[Dan Dare]

I wonder if they have to take the Oath of Allegiance as well.

Irish swell ranks of UK military

By Michael Buchanan
BBC News


The British military is experiencing a large rise in recruits from the Irish Republic, figures obtained by BBC Radio 4's PM programme have shown. They reveal a four-fold increase in military personnel from the Irish Republic during the past three years.

Between 2005 and 2006, just 3% of recruits entering the military through its recruitment centres in Northern Ireland came from the Republic. The figure so far this year is 14%, and officers believe it will rise further.

Lt Col Dick Rafferty, who runs the Northern Ireland recruitment centres where most of the southern Irish recruits join up, says several factors are driving enlistment.

They include the weakening economy in the Irish Republic and the sheer number of opportunities a career in the British military offers.

He also says the reduction in tensions in Northern Ireland itself has been crucial.

"This is a generation who are less familiar with the British army supporting the policing operation of the north," he says.

"They are more familiar with the wider efforts of the British army in Iraq and Afghanistan. Where previously [the troubles in] Northern Ireland informed the mindsets of the last generation, that is less the case with this upcoming generation."

Michael Godman, 19, from County Offaly, is one of those who would like to join the British military, hopefully to become a sniper.

He says he wanted to be a soldier from a young age and it was an easy decision to approach the British rather than the Irish military.

"The Irish Defence Force - as the name suggests - is a defence force, it's not an army," he says.

"It's for purely domestic use. It simply can't compare with the opportunities on offer with the British army."

…



Link … (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7749793.stm)

[Geist]

Interesting. There is less stigma.

The real reason is that if you are that way inclined the BA offers the possibility of seeing some action (outside of peace-keeping missions).

[Basil Fawlty]

The real reason is that if you are that way inclined the BA offers the possibility of seeing some action (outside of peace-keeping missions).Hopefully they will come back tagged and bagged.

[Dan Dare]

Hopefully they will come back tagged and bagged.

That seems uncharacteristically callous, Basil. Would you voice the same sentiments to the relatives of Irish Royal Marine Robbie McKibben? As noted in the original article:

... But scarcely can there have been a more public symbol of the new attitude than the reaction of the people of Westport in County Mayo to the death of Robert McKibben.

The Royal Marine was killed in Afghanistan earlier this month and buried in Westport on Monday amid incredible scenes.

Six Royal Marines marched for several hundred yards through the town beside his coffin, something that would not have been tolerated in the Irish Republic just a few years ago.

[Basil Fawlty]

That seems uncharacteristically callous, Basil.Callous, I think not. I don't believe that anyone should get away with a) serving in the army of their people's historic enemy, btw, there's a word for that, b) and then partaking in neo-imperial adventures.
Would you voice the same sentiments to the relatives of Irish Royal Marine Robbie McKibben? Of course not. One does not intrude on people's grief.

[Petr]

That seems uncharacteristically callous, Basil.
Irishmen can get pretty hard on those tribe members they deem to be traitors:

0S_ksDLy8dA

[Kodos]

Michael Godman, 19, from County Offaly, is one of those who would like to join the British military, hopefully to become a sniper.

You gotta be kind of a psycho if you really want to be a sniper.

[Geist]

Irishmen can get pretty hard on those tribe members they deem to be traitors:

0S_ksDLy8dA

Just imagine some of your friends signing up for the Russian army.

[Kodos]

Callous, I think not. I don't believe that anyone should get away with a) serving in the army of their people's historic enemy, btw, there's a word for that, b) and then partaking in neo-imperial adventures.
Of course not. One does not intrude on people's grief.

From the time of Queen Anne till Independence wasn't at least 1/3rd of the British army Irish?

It beat starving to death in Ireland.

[Petr]

Join The British Army

xa566QvOpWE

Some Say The Devil Is Dead

I6A-ucLv44Y

[Kodos]

Ive never heard Ronnie Drew sing that song, good version Petr.

[Kodos]

ORifieiZiP4

Wolfetones-Come Out ye Black and Tans

[Basil Fawlty]

From the time of Queen Anne till Independence wasn't at least 1/3rd of the British army Irish?I don't know what the figures were but they were on the high side.
It beat starving to death in Ireland.There's no danger of that so that does not mitigate their choices now. Anyway, who created the situation whereby those men were driven to joining the British army?

[Kodos]

There's no danger of that so that does not mitigate their choices now. Anyway, who created the situation whereby those men were driven to joining the British army?


But Britain and Ireland are to my knowledge no longer enemies (not that they were formally during the "overlordship/ascendandcy" period or the UK period but mercantile policy kept Ireland very poor).

I think I answered the 2nd part of your question in my paranthesis.

[Basil Fawlty]

There's no danger of that so that does not mitigate their choices now. Anyway, who created the situation whereby those men were driven to joining the British army?


But Britain and Ireland are to my knowledge no longer enemies (not that they were formally during the "overlordship/ascendandcy" period or the UK period but mercantile policy kept Ireland very poor).This is meaningless legalism. In fact, the British never had any legal right to be here or to claim sovereignty. Since 1169, there has never been a time when there has not been armed resistance to their presence.
I think I answered the 2nd part of your question in my paranthesis.Until such time as the only Union Jack flying on this island is in the compound of the British Embassy, there will always be a state of war.

[Dan Dare]

... Until such time as the only Union Jack flying on this island is in the compound of the British Embassy, there will always be a state of war.

Gosh Basil, another zinger! Have you been on the bevvie?

How ironic if that state of war you appear to cherish were to re-erupt into real shooting again, and Irish soldiers found themselves involved in military operations against erstwhile Republicans north of the border.

What a calamity!

[Basil Fawlty]

Gosh Basil, another zinger! Have you been on the bevvie?Regardless of what we might think about it, this has been the hsitory.
How ironic if that state of war you appear to cherish I don't cherish it.
were to re-erupt into real shooting again, and Irish soldiers found themselves involved in military operations against erstwhile Republicans north of the border.You mean those weasels who join the British army? Now you understand the problem, no?
What a calamity!The British have always shown a talent at divide and conquer. That's why I always thought the campaign should have been confined to the island of Britain.

[harjit]

Of course not. One does not intrude on people's grief.
Not sure why a general desire to see them harmed is out the window when it's a specific named individual.

[Basil Fawlty]

Not sure why a general desire to see them harmed is out the window when it's a specific named individual.Actually I've never in my life desired to see anyone harmed. Isn't it obvious to you that this is a "let's troll the Paddies" thread?

In fact I don't care what happens to these weasels once they take the Queen's Shilling. I would prefer that they were stripped of their citizenship and barred from entering the country for life. I don't wish harm on them, but if they die or come back paralysed they will only have themselves to blame.

[Niccolo and Donkey]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Basil Fawlty again.

[Hakluyt]

Ireland is a British construct. As religion becomes less important and the next generation fails to share in the ressentiment of their grandfathers, they will return to the fold and borders will gradually break down.

[Basil Fawlty]

Ireland is a British construct.Nonsense,Ireland was always a unitary entity. As religion becomes less important and the next generation fails to share in the ressentiment of their grandfathers, they will return to the fold and borders will gradually break down.Troll. :p

[harjit]

Actually I've never in my life desired to see anyone harmed.
Are you kidding?? You're every bit as bloodthirsty as any of your fellow illiberals here (which pretty much describes the majority of non-racists in this place, with Hakluyt standing out as a paragon of benevolent niceness among this particular breed, Niccolo perhaps on the other extreme :p, and you somewhere in the middle).

Isn't it obvious to you that this is a "let's troll the Paddies" thread?
Of course. It looks like such fun, hell, I'd vote BNP if their priority was to reassert colonial control.

[Basil Fawlty]

Are you kidding?? You're every bit as bloodthirsty as any of your fellow illiberals here (which pretty much describes the majority of non-racists in this place, with Hakluyt standing out as a paragon of benevolent niceness among this particular breed, Niccolo perhaps on the other extreme :p, and you somewhere in the middle).I hope you are.
Of course. It looks like such fun, hell, I'd vote BNP if their priority was to reassert colonial control.Yes, Dr. Aziz, whatever you say. ;)

[Felix the Cat]

It's a sound way to acquire combat experience on the coin of the British taxpayer. Would you rather Irishmen of a military bent sat idle in barracks for most of their careers?

[Basil Fawlty]

It's a sound way to acquire combat experience on the coin of the British taxpayer. Would you rather Irishmen of a military bent sat idle in barracks for most of their careers?The Irish army is far from idle. As it stands its quite over-stretched at the moment with missions in Kosovo and Chad and elsewhere.
Here are its current commitments:
EUFOR BiH
EUFOR Chad/CAR
KFOR
ISAF
MINURSO
MONUC
UNIFIL
UNMIK
UNOCI
UNTSO


That's not the point though. I think I've already made it clear what the objection to Irishmen serving in the British army amounts to. Also, the idea that one should obtain combat experience for its own sake in the context of serving in a foreign army which is involved in unlawful wars is morally depraved.

[Petr]

Nonsense,Ireland was always a unitary entity.
So unitary that there were Leinsterian Irishmen fighting alongside Vikings in the battle of Clontarf...

Yes, there was a common culture, but ancient Ireland was a typical quarreling tribe-country. Like with American Indians, it was easy for English invaders to divide and conquer such a society.

It was really Roman Catholicism that provided the Irish with clear national identity - and that mostly after the Reformation, when Rome started to promote the Irish cause against Protestant rulers.


Petr

[Ahknaton]

This is meaningless legalism. In fact, the British never had any legal right to be here or to claim sovereignty.
What about the Papal Bull of 1154? Why did the Irish not turn against the Catholic Church as a result of its endorsement of the Norman invasion?

[Basil Fawlty]

So unitary that there were Leinsterian Irishmen fighting alongside Vikings in the battle of Clontarf...It was unitary in every sense except centralised government although even there the High Kingship was evolving towards just that. The Brehon laws for example, had always been valid throughout the island, as were all social and cultural practices. The Bardship was an all-Ireland institution as were the Druidical offices. With the advent of Christianity, the ecclesiastical structures were also all-Ireland and self-consciousness of being part of one unitary people is present from earliest times. Its anachronistic to identify nations with states simpliciter.
Political Pan-Gaelicism was a trend that begins long before the Norman arrival and was propagated by the intelligentsia, ecclestiastic and secular.
Yes, there was a common culture, but ancient Ireland was still a typical quarreling tribe-country. Like with American Indians, it was easy for English inavders to divide and conIt was far from easy. The conquest of England was easy precisely because there was a centralised kingship/nobility structure - the Normans simply removed the Saxon noble class. Ireland was never really conquered precisely because of the patchwork quilt of kingships and chieftainates.

[Basil Fawlty]

What about the Papal Bull of 1154? Why did the Irish not turn against the Catholic Church as a result of its endorsement of the Normal invasion?First of all,there is good reason for believing this Bull never existed. Secodnly, even if it did exist it has no authority as it presupposes the Donation of Constantine, a demonstrated fraud. Thirdly, even if it were to be treated as legitimate, Henry II went way beyond its remit as did his successors. This is clearly set forth in the Remonstrances of the Princes to Pope John XXII in 1317.

[Felix the Cat]

That's not the point though. I think I've already made it clear what the objection to Irishmen serving in the British army amounts to. Also, the idea that one should obtain combat experience for its own sake in the context of serving in a foreign army which is involved in unlawful wars is morally depraved.
I'm not a great fan of the UN, but the Afghan adventure was undoubtedly authorized by that body and is probably as "lawful" as such things can be

[Basil Fawlty]

I'm not a great fan of the UN, but the Afghan adventure was undoubtedly authorized by that body and is probably as "lawful" as such things can beIraq is not.

[Felix the Cat]

Fair enough, but I think all remaining British troops were pulled out of there in 2007. There is not much chance they will be sent back.

[Basil Fawlty]

Fair enough, but I think all remaining British troops were pulled out of there in 2007. There is not much chance they will be sent back.This hardly signals the end of Britain's neoimperial adventures of which Afganistan is most certainly a part, fraudulently gained UNSC resolution or no.

Just saw this:
Sergeant Duane 'Baz' Barwood, attached to 903 Expeditionary Air Wing, Royal Air Force died as a result of a rocket attack on the Contingency Operating Base in Basra on Friday 29 February 2008.http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/FactSheets/OperationsFactsheets/OperationsInIraqBritishFatalities.htm

[Basil Fawlty]

It seems the British are still very much present in Iraq.
Forces in theatre (as at 1 June 2008)

The UK Land component includes the following British Army units deployed in Iraq:

* 7th Armoured Brigade Headquarters and Signal Squadron (207)
* 3rd Regiment Royal Horse Artillery
* The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers and Greys)
* 9/12th Royal Lancers (Prince of Wales')
* 32 Engineer Regiment
* 1st Battalion The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers
* 2nd Battalion The Royal Anglian Regiment
* The Highlanders, 4th Battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland
* 2 Logistic Support Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps
* 3 Close Support Medical Regiment
* 2 Close Support Battalion, Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers
* 111 Provost Company, 1st Regiment Royal Military Police
* Elements of 5th Regiment Royal Artillery
* Elements of 16th Regiment Royal Artillery
* Elements of 32nd Regiment Royal Artillery
* Elements of 47th Regiment Royal Artillery
* Elements of 170 (Infrastructure Support) Engineer Group
* Elements of 33 Engineer Regiment (Explosive Ordnance Disposal)
* Elements of 2nd Signal Regiment, Royal Corps of Signals
* Elements of 10th Signal Regiment, Royal Corps of Signals
* Elements of 14th Signal Regiment (Electronic Warfare), Royal Corps of Signals
* Elements of 21st Signal Regiment (Air Support), Royal Corps of Signals
* Elements of 24 Postal Courier and Movement Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps
* Elements of 9 Supply Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps
* Elements of 11 Explosive Ordnance Disposal Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps
* Elements of 17 Port and Maritime Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps
* Elements of 27 Transport Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps
* Elements of 29 Postal Courier and Movement Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps
* Elements of 104 Military Working Dog Support Unit
* Elements of 1 Military Intelligence Brigade
* Elements of 1 Regiment Army Air Corps
* Elements of Joint Medical Command

The UK air component deployed includes the following units:

* Elements of 28 Squadron, Royal Air Force
* Elements of 78 Squadron, Royal Air Force
* Elements of Tactical Supply Wing, Royal Air Force
* Elements of Joint Helicopter Support Unit, Royal Air Force

Please note: not all listed units may be present at one time since rotations take place on a regular basis. http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/FactSheets/OperationsFactsheets/OperationsInIraqBritishForcesinIraq.htm

[Ahknaton]

First of all,there is good reason for believing this Bull never existed. Secodnly, even if it did exist it has no authority as it presupposes the Donation of Constantine, a demonstrated fraud. Thirdly, even if it were to be treated as legitimate, Henry II went way beyond its remit as did his successors. This is clearly set forth in the Remonstrances of the Princes to Pope John XXII in 1317.
Interesting. I didn't know its existence was in question.

Just did a search for it and found out it was supposedly issued in 1155, not 1154 as I have seen written in several places:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laudabiliter

[Felix the Cat]

Apologies, you're right. I was under the impression they had been pulled out.

[Basil Fawlty]

Interesting. I didn't know it's existence was in question.No manuscript has ever been found and no one reports having seen it at the time except the two gentlemen named below. The texts derives from Norman propagandist sources, e.g. Cambrensis and John of Salisbury.
The Irish High King and the college of lower kings and princes never accepted it anyway.

[Basil Fawlty]

Apologies, you're right. I was under the impression they had been pulled out.Brown and co would like you to think they have withdrawn, hence the big media coverage of pullouts etc.

[Ahknaton]

No manuscript has ever been found and no one reports having seen it at the time except the two gentlemen named below. The texts derives from Norman propagandist sources, e.g. Cambrensis and John of Salisbury.
The Irish High King and the college of lower kings and princes never accepted it anyway.
It is a bizarre situation. Why did the Catholic Church refer to it in later pronunciations? Were they not aware that they had never issued it in the first place?

[Geist]

Ireland is a British construct. As religion becomes less important and the next generation fails to share in the ressentiment of their grandfathers, they will return to the fold and borders will gradually break down.

Now that is mad trollage. :rofl:

[harjit]

Yes, Dr. Aziz, whatever you say. ;)
:rofl: I wonder who's my Adela Quested.

Speaking of which, Geist is one of the nice illiberals, in the Hakluyt mold. Quite a credit to the Irish race.

[Basil Fawlty]

It is a bizarre situation. Why did the Catholic Church refer to it in later pronunciations? Were they not aware that they had never issued it in the first place?One could equally ask about the Donation of Constantine - was the Church aware of its fraudulent status up to the day Lorenzo Valla exposed it, or did the knowledge of it die with the forgers? A later Pope even reaffirmed the Bull.

[Basil Fawlty]

:rofl: I wonder who's my Adela Quested.

Speaking of which, Geist is one of the nice illiberals, in the Hakluyt mold. Quite a credit to the Irish race.The term is anti-liberal, not illiberal, which means something else. :)

[Hakluyt]

Nonsense,Ireland was always a unitary entity. Troll. :p
Whether or not that's true, modern Ireland is undeniably constructed in the image of Britain: her language, literature, political culture, values, folkways, and perception of the outside world are hardly aboriginal. World history is littered with examples of 'unitary entities' that have been invaded and reshaped forever by their conquerors - England among them - but Ireland is a particularly clear-cut example. There's no exclusion between these two states of national existence; they are merely two different points on a historical line. Emphasizing one does not diminish the other.

[Ahknaton]

One could equally ask about the Donation of Constantine - was the Church aware of its fraudulent status up to the day Lorenzo Valla exposed it, or did the knowledge of it die with the forgers? A later Pope even reaffirmed the Bull.
Crikey. What kind of Mickey Mouse operation is the Catholic Church running anyway? Don't they keep records of these things? It does concern the fate of millions after all.

[Basil Fawlty]

Whether or not that's true, modern Ireland is undeniably constructed in the image of BritainSome would say in opposition. her language, literature, political culture, values, folkways, and perception of the outside world are hardly aboriginal. The language of Ireland is Irish as well as English. The literature is in both languages,the political culture owes more to American republican forms and Gaelic clientalism than Britsh parliamentarianism, the national values are not British, nor are the folkways, very very different in fact, and the perception of the outside world is not British either. The only thing I woudl say is clearly British is the legal system with the difference that we have a written constiutution.
Have you ever actually been here? No? Well, by all means, troll away. ;)
World history is littered with examples of 'unitary entities' that have been invaded and reshaped forever by their conquerors - England among them - but Ireland is a particularly clear-cut example. There's no exclusion between these two states of national existence; they are merely two different points on a historical line. Emphasizing one does not diminish the other.I don't actually know what you're trying to say here.

[Basil Fawlty]

Crikey. What kind of Mickey Mouse operation is the Catholic Church running anyway? Don't they keep records of these things? It does concern the fate of millions after all.We are talking about a time when written records were done by hand and forgery was common and easy to sustain. Lines of physical communication were long and difficult.

[President Camacho]

That's not the point though. I think I've already made it clear what the objection to Irishmen serving in the British army amounts to. Also, the idea that one should obtain combat experience for its own sake in the context of serving in a foreign army which is involved in unlawful wars is morally depraved.I would imagine that an Irishman who saw combat in the British Army would nevertheless fight for his homeland in a hypothetical (and entirely unlikely) 21st century British invasion of Ireland when push comes to shove. Ever heard of Hermann the Cherusker?

I don't really view seeking personal combat experience as "depraved"... in fact this view seems like a symptom of modern decadence and weakness. For all you know, he could have little sympathy towards British interests and enlisted rather as a personal objective, to prove something to himself.

Jerking around wearing that smurf helmet in some African hellhole doesn't really qualify as "combat experience"...

[Basil Fawlty]

I would imagine that an Irishman who saw combat in the British Army would nevertheless fight for his homeland in a hypothetical (and entirely unlikely) 21st century British invasion of Ireland when push comes to shove. Ever heard of Hermann the Cherusker?We can imagine all sorts of things. In fact any Irishman joining the British army is making an oath to the Queen and all that implies.

I don't really view seeking personal combat experience as "depraved"... in fact this view seems like a symptom of modern decadence and weakness.I think moral depravity is the worst form of weakness. Killing in an unjustified war is murder.
For all you know, he could have little sympathy towards British interests and enlisted rather as a personal objective, to prove something to himself.Yea, maybe he's a psycho who wants to kill people with impunity.
Jerking around wearing that smurf helmet in some African hellhole doesn't really qualify as "combat experience"...So what's your relevant military experience?

[Lily]

Some would say in opposition. The language of Ireland is Irish as well as English. The literature is in both languages,the political culture owes more to American republican forms and Gaelic clientalism than Britsh parliamentarianism, the national values are not British, nor are the folkways, very very different in fact, and the perception of the outside world is not British either. The only thing I woudl say is clearly British is the legal system with the difference that we have a written constiutution.
Have you ever actually been here? No? Well, by all means, troll away. ;)
I don't actually know what you're trying to say here.

With regards to the language, near on half of the people I interact with at university are from Ireland. None of them can speak Irish, even the Welsh girl can speak Welsh, though I bet that's not common. English is clearly more predominant.

[Hakluyt]

Some would say in opposition.
Only in the most superficial of ways. The structure and content of Irish nationality on the other hand is unique British synthesis.

The language of Ireland is Irish as well as English.
It is true that the Republic has attempted a Hebrew-like revival of Gaelic, with limited success, but the core language of the people, in which they conduct daily business, and the one through which they primarily relate to their history is English. It is difficult for governments to make people speak a new language, even one they are historically associated with.

The literature is in both languages,
Ireland's modern literature worth mentioning is in the English language. Ireland's Gaelic inheritance is comparable to England's Anglo-Saxon literary heritage.

the political culture owes more to American republican forms and Gaelic clientalism than Britsh parliamentarianism,
That's a funny statement, since American government is of course a variation on a British theme, owing primarily to English and Scottish theorists, and America's own thoroughly Anglo-Saxon founding fathers. You seem to associate 'Britain' with 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' c. the 20th century; that's a very myopic view of history.

Clientelism is a universal phenomenon found everywhere in early Europe from Ireland to Bulgaria; all had their unique features to be sure, but I've never heard of 'Gaelic clientelism', for which there are no Google results, and I can't find any JSTOR articles either. Can you expand on its influence in modern Republican political culture? No doubt Ireland's backward system of patronage and land transmission persisted well into the 19th century, responsible in large part for the Famine. That surely left its mark on the country, but in contradistinction to the development of modern Irish society in the North and the East.

the national values are not British, nor are the folkways, very very different in fact, and the perception of the outside world is not British either.
Please feel free to point out the salient differences.

Have you ever actually been here? No? Well, by all means, troll away. ;)
One need not have first hand experience of a country to make the type of broad statements we have here. All that's necessary is a knowledge of history. It's not as if I am talking about the way Irish people walk, smile, or buy their groceries.

I don't actually know what you're trying to say here.
Then you should work on your reading comprehension skills, because it is a very intuitive point, and I felt any further explanation would be condescending.

You speak of Ireland as a 'unitary entity' throughout its history, as if this fact alone contradicts its Britishness. Yet this does not contradict the accuracy of the statement that Ireland [as we know it today] has been made over in the British image. It is perfectly consistent for a nation to possess a 'unitary' history before conquest, and to be culturally discontinuous thereafter.

[Geist]

With regards to the language, near on half of the people I interact with at university are from Ireland. None of them can speak Irish, even the Welsh girl can speak Welsh, though I bet that's not common. English is clearly more predominant.

I think Basil is referring to the status of Irish as our official language albeit one that is not widely spoken. In fact one of the few fluent Irish speakers I know is English :rofl:

[Geist]

Ireland's modern literature worth mentioning is in the English language. Ireland's Gaelic inheritance is comparable to England's Anglo-Saxon literary heritage.

.
Here is where Basil is correct about opposition. Ulysses, for example, is an attempt to subvert the English language by re-fashioning it along Hiberno-Irish lines or in the young Stephen's phrase to "forge in the smithy of my soul the uncreated conscious of my race." We speak English, but we also speak a distinct form of English inflected by the Irish language...something unique. Moulded in the image of English...

Wilde, and Shaw are a different case, but once again both represent a difference...it is their Irishness that allowed them to so savagely critique British high-society.

All this to me points to difference, but that is just in the literary world. I'll leave the politics to the better informed.

[harjit]

We can imagine all sorts of things. In fact any Irishman joining the British army is making an oath to the Queen and all that implies.
It's just a superficial act. Hardly a big price to pay for whatever he wants out of the experience (military training, the adventure, wanting to go abroad, a sincere belief he is fighting terrorism, or whatever). Some people place importance on such trite symbolism, others don't care and just go through the motions.

[Delmac]

It's just a superficial act. Hardly a big price to pay for whatever he wants out of the experience (military training, the adventure, wanting to go abroad, a sincere belief he is fighting terrorism, or whatever). Some people place importance on such trite symbolism, others don't care and just go through the motions.

Here I have to agree with Basil, symbolism is important, even if you don't believe in it yourself

Having lived in Warrington, London and Brighton I have predictably little sympathy for Irish republicanism.

Nonetheless, who would you say had more honour?

1.The Labour MP of professed republican views who took his Oath of Alleigance to the queen with his fingers crossed;
2.The UKIP MEPs who sit in the European parliament drawing huge wages from the institution they affect to despise; or
3.The Sinn Fein MPs who refuse to sit as MPs while the Oath mentioned at 1. still applies.

On the question whether Ireland was ever a unitary entity no doubt there is evidence both ways; and it is unlikely that one could form an apolitical opinion on the matter.

[harjit]

Here I have to agree with Basil, symbolism is important, even if you don't believe in it yourself

Having lived in Warrington, London and Brighton I have predictably little sympathy for Irish republicanism.

Nonetheless, who would you say had more honour?

1.The Labour MP of professed republican views who took his Oath of Alleigance to the queen with his fingers crossed;
2.The UKIP MEPs who sit in the European parliament drawing huge wages from the institution they affect to despise; or
3.The Sinn Fein MPs who refuse to sit as MPs while the Oath mentioned at 1. still applies.

Number 3, although the difference is minor and superficial. The others may have equally persuasive reasons for their choices.

Besides, symbolism is part of a politician's stock-in-trade. Their job is to represent a constituency of others. There is no comparison with a young man who wants to join the military, or someone's individual pursuits and goals.

[Basil Fawlty]

Number 3, although the difference is minor and superficial.A flat contradiction is neither minor nor superficial, especially when it bears on matters of high political principle.
The others may have equally persuasive reasons for their choices.Unprincipled liars and opportunists.
There is no comparison with a young man who wants to join the military, or someone's individual pursuits and goals.Of course there is. If man joins an army and makes an oath of loyalty without sincerity then he is a fraud and a danger to that army.

[Dan Dare]

Number 3, although the difference is minor and superficial. The others may have equally persuasive reasons for their choices....

The earlier post neglected to mention that the Sinn Fein MPs all continue to draw their quite considerable Westminster emoluments while at the same time, as Basil notes, standing firm on matters of 'high political principle' and refusing to represent their (British) constituents in Parliament.

[Basil Fawlty]

The earlier post neglected to mention that the Sinn Fein MPs all continue to draw their quite considerable Westminster emoluments while at the same time, as Basil notes, standing firm on matters of 'high political principle' and refusing to represent their (British) constituents in Parliament.Very lame, Dan. MP's are not obliged to take their seats and those who voted for SF do not want them to take their seats. Therefore they are representing the wishes of their consituents.

[Dan Dare]

Very lame, Dan. MP's are not obliged to take their seats and those who voted for SF do not want them to take their seats. Therefore they are representing the wishes of their consituents.

Well, it does rather beg the question as to why Sinn Fein would involve themselves in elections to the British Parliament if, as appears to be the case, they consider it to be an illegitimate body as far as anywhere in Ireland is concerned, and therefore decline to take part in its proceedings. However their 'high political principles' don't appear to extend as far as declining to trouser the lolly.

I'm afraid the line about representing the wishes of their constituents just won't wash. You're probably quite aware that only one of the five current MPs (G. Adams) attained a majority of the vote in the last election, so the majority of the (British) electorate in the other four constituencies, as well as a sizeable majority in his, are in effect disenfranchised as a consequence of to Sinn Fein's 'high moral principles'.

[Basil Fawlty]

Well, it does rather beg the question as to why Sinn Fein would involve themselves in elections to the British Parliament if, as appears to be the case, they consider it to be an illegitimate body as far as anywhere in Ireland is concerned, and therefore decline to take part in its proceedings.They only decline to take their seats in the chamber. They still maintain offices and conduct all the usual business of MP's short of sitting in the House and making speeches. They would take up their seats tomorrow if the Oath was dropped.However their 'high political principles' don't appear to extend as far as declining to trouser the lolly.They receive the salary that goes with the job. You're reaching here, Dan.
I'm afraid the line about representing the wishes of their constituents just won't wash. People who vote for SF know they are voting for an abstentionist platform. Abstentionist SF has long eclipsed the SDLP at the polls, even though they always took their seats. Nationalists support an abstentionist platform and whilst that may irritate you, it is the wishes of their supporters and voters that it be so.You're probably quite aware that only one of the five current MPs (G. Adams) attained a majority of the vote in the last election, so the majority of the (British) electorate in the other four constituencies, as well as a sizeable majority in his, are in effect disenfranchised as a consequence of to Sinn Fein's 'high moral principles'.I don't see how, SF didn't invent first past the post.
As a matter of fact SF have proved to be very effective representatives at the constituency level, regardless of affiliation. The DUP also has this reputation.

[Dan Dare]

They only decline to take their seats in the chamber. They still maintain offices and conduct all the usual business of MP's short of sitting in the House and making speeches. They would take up their seats tomorrow if the Oath was dropped.

I’m not certain that is the case. As I understand it, the abstentionist stance of Irish Republican MPs, both now and historically, is based upon the presumption that the Westminster Parliament has no jurisdiction within Ireland. The matter of the Oath of Allegiance is merely a convenient pretext, since Republicans elected to Parliament refute the constitutional basis upon which the institution is founded.

They receive the salary that goes with the job. You're reaching here, Dan.

Actually, again as I understand it, the five MPs receive a reduced salary due to their non-attendance, but receive the same allowances for office, living and travelling expenses as every other MP. There is a common perception that the hundreds of thousands of pounds made over each year to SF MPs is in effect a taxpayer-funded subsidy which serves to maintain an outlet for Republican propaganda in the heart of London.

People who vote for SF know they are voting for an abstentionist platform. Abstentionist SF has long eclipsed the SDLP at the polls, even though they always took their seats. Nationalists support an abstentionist platform and whilst that may irritate you, it is the wishes of their supporters and voters that it be so.

Again, SF supporters form a distinct minority in the five constituencies concerned. The majority of the electorate would no doubt prefer to have proper representation in Parliament, rather than the shadow-boxing that Sinn Fein continues to engage in.


As a matter of fact SF have proved to be very effective representatives at the constituency level, regardless of affiliation. The DUP also has this reputation.

I’m interpreting ‘proper representation at the constituency level’ to refer to matters such as controlling feral gangs, drug trafficking and routine social work, all which come more properly within the purview of the local authorities. In the parliamentary context, Sinn Fein are so marginalised that they have no prospect of ever fulfilling the electoral mandate for the people they are supposed to be representing, and thus their activities are confined to ‘pastoral work’.

Really, Basil, I'm surprised at the amount of energy that you are putting into defending this indefensible charade.

[Basil Fawlty]

I’m not certain that is the case. As I understand it, the abstentionist stance of Irish Republican MPs, both now and historically, is based upon the presumption that the Westminster Parliament has no jurisdiction within Ireland. The matter of the Oath of Allegiance is merely a convenient pretext, since Republicans elected to Parliament refute the constitutional basis upon which the institution is founded.Taking the Oath would be a recognition of British sovereignty in a part of Ireland, this is why they don't take it. There's no problem with them running for election and carrying out the offices of an MP. They are precluded from appearing in the House because of the Oath.
Actually, again as I understand it, the five MPs receive a reduced salary due to their non-attendance, but receive the same allowances for office, living and travelling expenses as every other MP. There is a common perception that the hundreds of thousands of pounds made over each year to SF MPs is in effect a taxpayer-funded subsidy which serves to maintain an outlet for Republican propaganda in the heart of London.This "common perception" is false, the SF MP's are as much elected rperesentatives as anyone else.
Again, SF supporters form a distinct minority in the five constituencies concerned. The majority of the electorate would no doubt prefer to have proper representation in Parliament, rather than the shadow-boxing that Sinn Fein continues to engage in.Again, the First Past the Post system is the British electoral system and this has resulted in SF people being elected. If you don't like it, direct your complaints to the Electoral Commission. Bear in mind though, that under PR there would be more SF members than there are under the current system.
I’m interpreting ‘proper representation at the constituency level’ to refer to matters such as controlling feral gangs, drug trafficking and routine social work, all which come more properly within the purview of the local authorities. Then you are misinterpreting my remarks. By 'proper representation' I mean the usual day to day business that occupies MP's. SF are also the second party of government in the power-sharing system in the north.
In the parliamentary context, Sinn Fein are so marginalised that they have no prospect of ever fulfilling the electoral mandate for the people they are supposed to be representing, and thus their activities are confined to ‘pastoral work’.Stuff and nonsense. They are set to become the biggest party in the north after the next local elections. The unionists face a looming crisis as this may very well result in SF taking the post of First Minister and leading the government there when those elections swing round.
Really, Basil, I'm surprised at the amount of energy that you are putting into defending this indefensible charade.Dan, I interpret this thread as a sign of your boredom with trolling the Wogs so you thought of doing the Paddies for a change. Well by all means carry on, but please don't expect me to take your rather ill-informed views on this subject seriously. ;)

[Geist]

As far as I can see SF do as good a job as any other Northern party. The British tend not to take NI seriously anyway. The DUP & co. being ignored on PMQs is about the height of it.