Is the Conservative Government About to Fall?

[Niccolo and Donkey]

link (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081130.wflaherty1130/BNStory/politics/home?cid=al_gam_mostemail)

Looks like the Harper Government is in danger of being overthrown by an end run consisting of a Liberal-NDP official coalition with Bloc backing. Some are hinting that if this does come to pass, western separatist sentiments can be ignited as the view is one of central Canada again ganging up on the West.

The GG is scheduled to return quickly from overseas, thus suggesting that SHTF time is quickly approaching.

[DonkeyKong]

The NDP and liberals will remain seperate parties and vote differently on bills. They'll call an election and split their vote like last election. Then people will be pissed off by the election call, still won't like Dion or Layton, and the conservatives will get a majority just so we don't have to put up with more elections. If Rae leads the liberal party, they'll get nothing in Ontario, NDP and Conservatives will get more.

Unless the two parties become one, any talks of "coalition" is just a waste of time and taxpayer money.

[Niccolo and Donkey]

There's no danger of a Liberal-NDP merger any time soon...that's right out the window. What is interesting in this dynamic is the reliance on the Bloc, a party intent upon breaking up Canada, to support this coalition. Mix that in with Dion stepping down and the recipe is for some pretty serious political uncertainty for the time being.

The Conservatives are actually looking like the good guys here since they can point the finger at the NDP and Liberals for two reasons:

1. Defending tax money going to parties based on votes received
2. Allying with the anti-Canadian Bloc Quebecois

[DonkeyKong]

So the NDP and Liberals are gunning for a Conservative majority?

[Niccolo and Donkey]

Bloc-NDP-Grit government a coalition for Canada: Layton (http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5g3LkGK94cvTzhJBmHcYNEFOsKw0A)

OTTAWA — A budding coalition between New Democrats, the separatist Bloc Quebecois and Liberals is an exercise in nation building, NDP Leader Jack Layton told his caucus in a conference call covertly recorded by the government.

Layton's national unity musings were secretly recorded Saturday by the Conservatives. They held the tape for a day and then had an official from the Prime Minister's Office deliver it to various media on Sunday.

"The 'Coalition for Canada,' I love the idea - (but it) could be a deal-breaker for the Bloc," Layton is heard saying to laughter.

"'The Coalition for Canada and Quebec?"' he adds, to more laughter.
Layton, however, appears deadly serious when he pitches the coalition as a potentially unifying force in federal politics.

"Nothing could be better for our country than to have the 50 (BQ) members out of 75 who've been elected in Quebec actually helping to make Canada a better place. We just approach it on that basis and say, 'We're willing to make that happen. Here are the things we're going to be investing in and transforming together.'

"If they're willing to work with us, we're willing to accept that offer."

The NDP said Sunday it may pursue criminal charges after the Conservatives covertly listened in, taped and distributed audio of Saturday's closed-door strategy session.

There no wiretap crime under the Criminal Code of Canada if someone is invited to participate in a conference call and then releases the recording publicly.

A spokesman for Prime Minister Stephen Harper said an unnamed Conservative had been "invited" to participate on the call.

"Maybe the invitation was meant for the Bloc, and they accidentally invited us," said Dimitri Soudas.

"We were invited. When you get invited somewhere you have the opportunity to choose to participate or not participate."

Two disparate segments of the recording totalling about 15 minutes were delivered Sunday. The senior PMO official distributing the recordings suggested more will be revealed later this week.

The Conservative take is that Layton's comments show he began conspiring with the Bloc for months to bring down Canada's elected government - long before last week's economic update that precipitated the current crisis of confidence in the Harper minority government.

The recording is more ambiguous.

In a discussion over concerns that the Bloquistes will be "offside" on issues, Layton said that's already been taken into account and strategies have been developed to avoid policy conflict.

"I actually believe they're the least of our problems," he said.

"This whole thing wouldn't have happened if the moves hadn't of been made with the Bloc to lock them in early because you couldn't put three people together in three hours.

"The first part was done a long time ago. I won't go into details."

Layton suggests reluctant Liberals may be a bigger problem, and he exhorts his MPs to organize public rallies this Thursday and not wait for other coalition partners to do the work.

"Chances are there are a bunch of Liberals in the other ridings on whom we want pressure placed," he's heard saying.

As far back as 2004, it's known that Layton, Duceppe and Stephen Harper - then the leader of the Opposition - held a "close consultation" on what would happen if they could defeat the Liberal minority of Paul Martin.

The three leaders co-signed a letter to then governor general Adrienne Clarkson asking her to "consider all your options" if the Liberal government fell.

And during last year's raucous parliamentary session, the Bloc and NDP regularly voted non-confidence in the Conservatives while the Liberals abstained or supported the minority government.

NDP MP Thomas Mulcair said the Tories are panicking and desperate to change the channel on their economic management.

The recording, he said, is a breach of parliamentary rules. NDP lawyers are examining if the tapes break the Criminal Code.

As for the substance of the call, Mulcair said the talks with the Bloc were perfectly normal consultations between parties in a minority government.

They began only after the government's economic update was delivered last Thursday, he said.

Layton is heard downplaying the policy questions that could plague a coalition of such disparate party interests, saying everyone will have to curb their wish list.

"What we really want is just to get Harper out and get this new group in because it's going to be a hell of a lot better for everything we believe in. Correct? Correct!"

And he warned his caucus not to be defensive because the coalition represents the majority of Canadian voters.

"You can see where Harper's going here," said Layton.

"He's going to say its the socialists and the separatists and the opportunists getting together. Those are their talking points and so we just need to push back."

Layton ridiculed the Conservatives over the issue Sunday night at an Ontario NDP event in Toronto.

"It's entirely possible the Conservative party is recording what I'm saying here right now," Layton told the partisan audience. "Here's what I have to say to the Conservative party tuned in: 'good riddance to you!' "

[harjit]

Even as a Liberal, I'd prefer the Conservatives to win a solid majority and govern steadily for a full term and be free to try out their ideas, than this constant threat of parliamentary dissolution and the ruling party being a lame duck.

[Commander]

Watching Ezra Levant ( a guy I sort of don't mind) blow a gasket over this on Friday was funny.

[harjit]

Watching Ezra Levant ( a guy I sort of don't mind) blow a gasket over this on Friday was funny.
Hey, long time no see!

[Commander]

Hey, long time no see!

Hi harjit. I figured I'd come back, what the heck? :)

[Commander]

"Prime Minister Stephane Dion" is a scary phrase.

"Finance Minister Jack Layton" is even scarier.

But now CTV reveals that there's a third option for scariest political phrase of the year: "Foreign Minister Gilles Duceppe"?

CTV has audio tape of Jack Layton boasting to his caucus about how he's cooked up a secret deal with the Bloc Quebecois -- who he describes as strong Canadian boosters.

Finance Minister Jack Layton...budget for continuing the war in Afghanistan, stamped rejected.........."we don't have money to waste on such idiotic nonsense".

That would be nice, I'd really like to see the neo-Conservatives crying about that, they are such swine. :ziotard:

http://ezralevant.com/

[DonkeyKong]

Great politics.

Find out about coalition to topple Conservatives.
Conservatives try to pass legislation to piss off the other 3 parties.
Conservatives retract some of those changes and coalition still looking to topple Conservatives.
Canadians sick of elections. No one outside of Quebec will support seperatists, and Liberal supporters will not support NDP who is hand-in-hand with seperatists. It'd be smart for the liberals to stay out of this type of coalition.
But if they do get in, Canadians won't support those seperatists either.

So then everyone outside of Quebec won't vote in those three parties.

Less than 75 seats looks like a small opposition to me. :p

[Commander]

I just watched the 3 of them signing the papers, Steve and his neo-Conservatives are going, going, gone (early next week) . :rofl: :6:

[Count Sudoku]

I just watched the 3 of them signing the papers, Steve and his neo-Conservatives are going, going, gone (early next week) . :rofl: :6:

This should please all those Canadian Freepers. Fucked again because all the wogs voted liberal.

[Niccolo and Donkey]

The ball is in her court now:

http://www.gg.ca/media/pho/galleryPics/512.jpg

link (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081201.wdionleadersub1201/BNStory/National/home?cid=al_gam_mostemail)

[Commander]

The Bloq, I think most of their supporters are white French.

The NDP is a coalition of leftists, not just minorities.

The Liberals will have their rep as PM, but, I think Jack and Gilles will have a fair amount of input.

It will not be Liberals 'calling the shots' like in days of old.

[DonkeyKong]

We can have a government in power that hasn't been elected into power? Sorry to say, but that's fucked up.

The ball is in her court now:

http://www.gg.ca/media/pho/galleryPics/512.jpg

link (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081201.wdionleadersub1201/BNStory/National/home?cid=al_gam_mostemail)

My god. We're screwed. Instead of proper economic stimulus to keep the economy strong (like the Conservatives have been properly doing for the past 2 years) we're going to go the way of the other countries and use taxpayer money to bail out these corporations.

[Commander]

My god. We're screwed. Instead of proper economic stimulus to keep the economy strong (like the Conservatives have been properly doing for the past 2 years) we're going to go the way of the other countries and use taxpayer money to bail out these corporations.

Things will get interesting, and I don't say I disagree with your opinion either. I just hate Harper, he grovels way to much to those Likudniks. Canada, the majority want out of Afghanistan, anything that throws a monkey wrench at those rotten people who keep us there, I'm all for it. :)

[Niccolo and Donkey]

http://media.thestar.topscms.com/images/4c/93/a7c8cdcc4e6a835733a7d0ef6da9.jpeg

[DonkeyKong]

Canadians will resent this. Power grab and political suicide.

[Hakluyt]

I predict the Bloc will withdraw from the coalition before Spring, resulting in another election - fomenting chaos in Ottawa is their raison d'etre after all. If Harper can keep on top of party discipline, the Conservatives will surge and almost certainly win a majority. Anti-Quebec sentiment will rise. Very interesting times to come.

[Niccolo and Donkey]

I predict the Bloc will withdraw from the coalition before Spring, resulting in another election - fomenting chaos in Ottawa is their raison d'etre after all. If Harper can keep on top of party discipline, the Conservatives will surge and almost certainly win a majority. Anti-Quebec sentiment will rise. Very interesting times to come.

Agreed. This can totally work to the Conservatives' advantage....it's not as if a scandal is putting them out of government or misgovernance...it's simply a power play and one that is incredibly risky since it involves a separatist party.

[Hakluyt]

Agreed. This can totally work to the Conservatives' advantage....it's not as if a scandal is putting them out of government or misgovernance...it's simply a power play and one that is incredibly risky since it involves a separatist party.
Yes, and there is the fact that Canada hasn't had a coalition government since Borden's Unionist government in 1917. The average Canadian has no idea what a 'coalition government' is, how it works, or why their duly elected government is about to be unseated. That the plot involves the Bloc is the icing on the cake.

[Commander]

Canada is now just like the USA.

Nobody knows for sure what the new people will do.

Time will tell.

[Niccolo and Donkey]

Yes, and there is the fact that Canada hasn't had a coalition government since Borden's Unionist government in 1917. The average Canadian has no idea what a 'coalition government' is, how it works, or why their duly elected government is about to be unseated. That the plot involves the Bloc is the icing on the cake.

I think you'll agree with me that with all these factors and players, Canadian politics is much more interesting than the politics of our neighbours down below.

[Niccolo and Donkey]

Canada is now just like the USA.

I can't understand what this statement means. First of all, it's difficult enough knowing what Canada is on its own.

[Commander]

I can't understand what this statement means. First of all, it's difficult enough knowing what Canada is on its own.
What I mean is, it's a new entity about to govern. Not much is known about Team Obama other than 'change' and 'historic'.

A coalition government in Canada, this is very new who knows what will happen?

*1917 was a long time ago.

[Niccolo and Donkey]

What I mean is, it's a new entity about to govern. Not much is known about Team Obama other than 'change' and 'historic'.

A coalition government in Canada, this is very new who knows what will happen?

*1917 was a long time ago.

Gotcha. Thx.

[O'Zebedee]

NDP - Coalition For Change (http://www.ndp.ca/press/coalition-for-change-statement-by-jack-layton)

Coalition for Change: Statement by Jack Layton

Mon 01 Dec 2008

We stand today at a crossroads in our shared history.

Canada must have strong, effective and responsible government. One that holds the confidence of Parliament.

Today, we do not.

We have a government that refuses to act when our economy, and the people whom it serves, need it more than at any time in a generation.

The government has lost the confidence of the people of Canada and therefore it has lost the confidence of this Parliament.

It falls on us to act.

The New Democrats and the Liberal Party, with the support of the Bloc Quebecois, have chosen a path to stimulate the economy in a stable and responsible government.

A government that will put the economy first. Because we must act now.

Because due to the Conservative government’s inaction in the face of the economic crisis, the government has shown that it has no confidence in our people.

That’s why the government has lost confidence in the Conservative government.

We have not made these choices lightly.

Our decision was made in full seriousness and clear knowledge of what is at stake. We will take the prudent, responsible and effective steps necessary to meet the economic and fiscal challenges we face.

This agreement on how the coalition government will work is fair and balanced.

And the action plan to stimulate the economy is prompt, prudent, competent and, most importantly, effective.

We will form a prudent, responsible government. A government that will take the necessary steps to meet the fiscal and economic challenges we are facing.

This agreement, which shows how the coalition government will work, is fair and balanced.

And the action plan to stimulate the economy includes measures that will be implemented quickly, prudently, competently and effectively.

It will make a difference for millions of Canadian families who are looking to their federal government for leadership and hope.

I would like to direct a few words directly to Prime Minister Harper.

Prime Minister, your government has lost the confidence of the House, and is going to be defeated and replaced at the first opportunity.

I urge you to accept this gracefully, and to take up the new role you will be playing in the House of Commons in the coming year.

I urge you to accept the verdict of your colleagues in Parliament, and not to create further instability and delay in these tough economic times.

Let me say a final word to my fellow New Democrats across Canada.

In the 1920s, Farmer-Labour MPs were sent to Ottawa to defend the rights and interests of some of poorest of this country.

CCF MPs picked up that mantle in the 1930s.

And then New Democrats.

For decades, New Democrats and their predecessors have helped shape the direction of this country.

Much of what Canadians are so rightly proud of – Medicare, pensions and old age security – are the result of our party working with others.

We’ve accomplished much by influencing government with sound and progressive ideas. Now we’re ready to continue that legacy inside a government cabinet.

As New Democrats. we take the responsibilities before us seriously. We will work in good faith with our partners to advance the interests of working families. The times call for nothing less.

Today, some of the dreams of those who built our great party and movement have come true.

The hard work. The ten dollar contributions that were like a thousand dollars to the people who offered them.

To them, and to all Canadians, I say, we won’t let you down.

[Hakluyt]

Because due to the Conservative government’s inaction in the face of the economic crisis, the government has shown that it has no confidence in our people.
Funny how this argument (pro-bailout) amounts to the left scolding the Conservatives for not following a trail blazed by the Republican administration of the United States. But then, as I've said often, the left has always been the driving force for Americanization in Canada.

[DonkeyKong]

But then, as I've said often, the left has always been the driving force for Americanization in Canada.

Interesting idea. Care to provide an explination for this? (articles supporting this notion or even a link to an older post explaining this is good enough)

With Mulroney there was the whole NAFTA thing. Was that more left wing or right wing? Has it Americanized us? What has the left done that has Americanized Canada?

[Commander]

Ken Georgetti is calling it 'A Coalition of the Willing' :) :popcorn:

[Commander]

http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20071021/160_davies_071021.jpg

The CBC just said Libby will be considered for one of the 5 Coalition/NDP Cabinet posts. :) :thumbsup:

I wonder how she would vote on budget money for the never ending war (disaster) in Afghanistan ? :whip: :)

http://libbydavies.ca/

[DonkeyKong]

In an interview ten days ago in La Presse, the Governor General was asked whether her relations with Prime Minister Harper were "generally good." She replied: "They are what they must be between a governor general and a prime minister. That's to say: mutual respect. Because this is part of respect for democracy. The people choose their government."

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/12/02/f-vp-spector.html

Looks like another election.

[O'Zebedee]

There's already a separate Wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Canadian_political_crisis)

[Commander]

Wow, Harper's extremist backers are really in an uproar. :rofl: (was just watching the tv)

The 'Likudniks' don't seem to like not getting their way. :)

Looks like the neo-Conservatives are going to be dragged kicking and screaming from the reigns of power.

[Niccolo and Donkey]

Wow, Harper's extremist backers are really in an uproar. :rofl: (was just watching the tv)

The 'Likudniks' don't seem to like not getting their way. :)

Looks like the neo-Conservatives are going to be dragged kicking and screaming from the reigns of power.

I don't think it's really all that fair to characterize the Conservatives in Canada as neo-cons or "Likudniks". The best descriptor would be "pro-American". We aren't inundated with the propaganda apparatus up here that usually comes along with neo-con speak like our neighbours below, barring the few obvious exceptions.

Conservative MPs don't genuflect to the Israelis like American congressmen do...it's more a matter of keeping on the good side of the USA rather than fortress Israel.

[Commander]

@ Nic

How would you describe the 'power couple' who back Harper, < Heather Reisman, & Gerry Schwartz >?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Schwartz

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=Heather+Reisman%2C+Gerry+Schwartz&btnG=Search&meta=


http://www.dominionpaper.ca/weblogs/stefan_christoff/1399

[Niccolo and Donkey]

@ Nic

How would you describe the 'power couple' who back Harper, < Heather Reisman, & Gerry Schwartz >?

I'd describe them as Canadian Jews with ties to Israel, akin to the Aspers. Israeli/Jewish affairs really don't dominate Canadian politics the way they do the USA.

[Commander]

... Israeli/Jewish affairs really don't dominate Canadian politics the way they do the USA.

Maybe not, but my personal thoughts are, these Ashkenazim people, pressure from them, is the main reason Canada continues on with the disaster in Afghanistan, even though 2/3 of the Canadian people want out now.

[DonkeyKong]

Maybe not, but my personal thoughts are, these Ashkenazim people, pressure from them, is the main reason Canada continues on with the disaster in Afghanistan, even though 2/3 of the Canadian people want out now.

It had little to do with that, and more to do with "Hey America is our ally, screw you bin laden"

And now it's more of a humanitarian issue. There's still fighting, but even the taliban from time to time have been greatful for the work Canadians have done in Afghanistan.

Canada isn't under some sort of ZOG control. We're lucky.

[Commander]

It had little to do with that, and more to do with "Hey America is our ally, screw you bin laden"

And now it's more of a humanitarian issue. There's still fighting, but even the taliban from time to time have been greatful for the work Canadians have done in Afghanistan.

...

Yes, I am aware of the standard monologue. :canuck: :rolleyes:

[Niccolo and Donkey]

Yes, I am aware of the standard monologue. :canuck: :rolleyes:

Actually, there's a lot of merit to the post by Culex. Canada prides itself on humanitarian interventions since the UN peacekeeping model was developed by Lester B. Pearson. The fact that Afghanistan requires some combat plays into a more beefed up role in NATO (brownie points) which thus allows the Conservatives some distance from the other parties in foreign affairs.

I don't think you can blame Canada's position in Afghanistan on Jews.

[DonkeyKong]

Yes, I am aware of the standard monologue. :canuck: :rolleyes:

I'm sorry, I thought you weren't. It sounded like you were calling the Conservatives puppets of the Jew World Order. I just wanted to shed some light on the sentiment that almost all Canadians I have talked to about the issue had.

[Commander]

I'm sorry, I thought you weren't. It sounded like you were calling the Conservatives puppets of the Jew World Order. I just wanted to shed some light on the sentiment that almost all Canadians I have talked to about the issue had.


Oh, I would never call Steven Harper a boot licker of the B'Nai Brith and the Likudnik billionaires. :)

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0cXe0dh2piaAf/610x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0fug0ivabo7zy/610x.jpg

[Niccolo and Donkey]

Oh, I would never call Steven Harper a boot licker of the B'Nai Brith and the Likudnik billionaires. :)

Wow...a photo op...amazing. You can do better than WN/VNN type arguments, Commander.

[Commander]

Wow...a photo op...amazing. You can do better than WN/VNN type arguments, Commander.

Nic, in Canada, there is a small % of people who 'know the score', and (for whatever reason) play along. I will put you in this category.

The rest of the Canadian population, likely about 90%, are idiots.

Idiots who believe anything the Asper + CBC media tell them.

That's all I have to say. Debate on issues dealing with Canada, is more or less pointless.

[Niccolo and Donkey]

Nic, in Canada, there is a small % of people who 'know the score', and (for whatever reason) play along. I will put you in this category.

The rest of the Canadian population, likely about 90%, are idiots.

Idiots who believe anything the Asper + CBC media tell them.

That's all I have to say. Debate on issues dealing with Canada, is more or less pointless.

I know the score, and the score isn't ZOGCanada.

Leave that for the Ameritards.

You've done a piss poor job defending your position on this thread, and you've even failed to address the points about Canadian foreign policy debates and the history of Canadian forces and peacekeeping missions.

It's much easier to blame it all on Jews....even if the actual events are much more complex.

[Commander]

It's much easier to blame it all on Jews....even if the actual events are much more complex.

I don't blame anything on 'the Jews'. Have you looked at my post in this thread praising Libby Davis? Who do you think she is?

I blame Zionists, Ashkenazim converts to Judaism. The B'Nai Brith is not a Jewish organization, it is a Zionist organization, which represents Israel's interests in Canada.

Ezra Levant, (someone I sort of admire) said recently about the CJC 'they do not represent all Jews', well I don't think the B'Nai Brith does either.

Members of the Zionist movement, hiding behind Jews, saying everything is 'hatred of Jews', etc, etc., that whole argument is really wearing thin. Even with some of the 'tards.

[Niccolo and Donkey]

I don't blame anything on 'the Jews'. Have you looked at my post in this thread praising Libby Davis? Who do you think she is?

I blame Zionists, Ashkenazim converts to Judaism. The B'Nai Brith is not a Jewish organization, it is a Zionist organization, which represents Israel's interests in Canada.

Ezra Levant, (someone I sort of admire) said recently about the CJC 'they do not represent all Jews', well I don't think the B'Nai Brith does either.

Members of the Zionist movement, hiding behind Jews, saying everything is 'hatred of Jews', etc, etc., that whole argument is really wearing thin. Even with some of the 'tards.

All right, lemme rephrase: Zionists in Canada aren't responsible for Canada's presence in Afghanistan.

[Hakluyt]

Interesting idea. Care to provide an explination for this? (articles supporting this notion or even a link to an older post explaining this is good enough)

With Mulroney there was the whole NAFTA thing. Was that more left wing or right wing? Has it Americanized us? What has the left done that has Americanized Canada?
Well, it depends on your definition of 'left' - I'm using the term broadly to refer to the counter-establishment (counter-Tory) tendencies which are continuous from pre-Confederation times, not necessarily the social-democratic Left.

Free Trade was a torch born almost exclusively by the Liberals throughout 9/10 of Canadian history. Liberal politicians and merchants (most of the merchant class in early Canada was Liberal) promoted it solidly from the 1850s until the 1980s... Before the WWI era, many were even outright annexationists, preferring Canada to be part of the US than the protectionist-conservative-Tory British Empire. Even Bay Street was a Liberal stronghold for much of the 20th century. The economic steps to integrate our economy with that of the US were taken by Liberal Prime Ministers, most notably King (who also integrated defence), and St. Laurent. Mulroney's conversion to Free Traderism was sudden, and radically discontinuous with Conservative politics up until that time.

A turning point in Canadian history was the transfer of power between John Diefenbaker and Lester Pearson. Diefenbaker was a populist conservative, Pearson a Liberal technocrat and staunch pro-American Cold Warrior. in 1964, Diefenbaker refused to accept American nuclear warheads on Canadian soil, and an election was triggered (helped by American agents who were sent by Kennedy to brief the Canadian media and spread dissent in Parliament). Pearson supported hosting the warheads as a necessity to combat the belligerence of the Soviet Union. The election of 1965 pitted Pearson the competent, worldly, pro-American representative of the 'natural governing party' against Diefenbaker the unpredictable, backwoods, stodgy Canadian nationalist. Ultimately, Canadians decided that to be anti-American was to be anti-modern, to resist change, and to balk at the acknowledgement of the United States as the Leader of the Free World. Diefenbaker was defeated and Pearson ushered in an era of genuflection toward American power, and concomitant integration into Empire. The most succinct analysis of this period was written by George Grant in the book Lament for a Nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lament_for_a_Nation), a true classic of Canadian politial theory, written by a Conservative anti-American.

The social-democratic left have their own Americanism, however. Canadian leftists in the 60s and 70s took their cues solidly from Boston and San Francisco, not from any indigenous Canadian source. That we have Medicare owes more to the inclinations of our collectivist Tory roots: Conservative governments were responsible for founding many of our other socialist/government-controlled institutions, like the CBC. Social democrats on the other hand are borrowing from a more superficial playbook, one that holds in much higher regard Vietnam draft dodgers than early Canadian union workers or even their CCF/Farmer forebears.

The evolution of multiculturalism is an interesting example in leftist Americanism. There is nothing un-Canadian about multiculturalism in principle - it was originally biculturalism - an Anglo-French compromise - and referred to the mutual preservation of cultures, which has always been a key part of British imperial policy after the conquest of Quebec. Leftists however expanded its scope into the realm of American identity politics, and spread the discourse of 'race and gender' into Canadian academia, despite the fact that these things were absent from any organic Canadian political reality. They are American memes.

You might consider reading about the "Red Tories" (which might include George Grant aforementioned). They are Canada's traditional anti-American Conservatives, and during the first half of the 20th century, they identified Liberalism with America and warned against the spread of pro-American politics as a threat to our cultural autonomy. Liberals have always hated these guys and called them 'romantics', 'imperialists', 'nationalists,', et. al. Eccentric doomsayers during their time, they've been proven true prophets as far as I'm concerned. The Conservatives today have totally betrayed their legacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Tory

Historically, Canadian conservatism has been related to the British Tory tradition, with a distinctive concern for individual rights versus collectivism, as mediated through a traditional pre-industrial standard of morality, which has never been as evident in American conservatism. ...

... Red Tories supported traditional institutions like religion and the monarchy, and maintenance of the social order. Later, this would manifest itself as support for the welfare state. ...

... In distinction to the American experience where class divisions were seen as undemocratic (although still existing), Canadian Tories adopted a more patriarchal view of government. Monarchy, public order and good government - understood as dedication to the common good - preceded, moderated, and balanced an unequivocal belief in individual rights and liberty. ...

... This vision contrasted Canada with the United States, which was seen as lacking this collectivist tradition, as it was expunged from the American political culture after the American Revolution and the exodus of the United Empire Loyalists. Horowitz argued that Canada's stronger socialist movement grew from Toryism, and that this explains why socialism has never had much electoral success in the United States. ...

... The Ontario Progressive Conservative Party, which has held power in that province for most of the time since Confederation, was often labelled as Red Tory, especially under the leadership of William Davis from 1971 to 1985. Under Davis, the Tories often ran to the left of the Ontario Liberal Party.

[Hakluyt]

All right, lemme rephrase: Zionists in Canada aren't responsible for Canada's presence in Afghanistan.
Indeed. Jews have a much lower profile in Canada than in the US. Most are embarassed by any mention of Israel and prefer not to talk about politics if they can avoid it, in total contrast to American Jews. Also, while American Jews vote solidly democrat, Canadian Jews are increasingly divided between the parties - they don't necessarily have the anti-establishment hangup American Jews do.

Of course, Commander is a Canadian who has lived most of his life in the US, where all his reference points come from. Try to convince an American that the world doesn't revolve around Jews, Israel, Iraq, et al.

[O'Zebedee]

I, for one, welcome our new socialist-separatist overlords.

[Commander]

Looks like Steve may be taking his ball and going home. (meeting tomorrow)

[Commander]

Indeed. Jews have a much lower profile in Canada than in the US. Most are embarassed by any mention of Israel and prefer not to talk about politics if they can avoid it, in total contrast to American Jews. Also, while American Jews vote solidly democrat, Canadian Jews are increasingly divided between the parties - they don't necessarily have the anti-establishment hangup American Jews do.

Of course, Commander is a Canadian who has lived most of his life in the US, where all his reference points come from. Try to convince an American that the world doesn't revolve around Jews, Israel, Iraq, et al.


Somebody strong armed the Liberals, and not-so-strong armed the neo-Conservatives into extending Canadian involvement in the Afghanistan war (disaster).

2/3 of Canadians were against this. (it's notable this is the exact same case in England and Germany)

Do you have any explanation as to who is behind this, or did it just happen for no known reason?

[Hakluyt]

Somebody strong armed the Liberals, and not-so-strong armed the neo-Conservatives into extending Canadian involvement in the Afghanistan war (disaster).

2/3 of Canadians were against this. (it's notable this is the exact same case in England and Germany)

Do you have any explanation as to who is behind this, or did it just happen for no known reason?
That people are against something doesn't mean they particularly care about it. Afghanistan simply does not have the presence in the Canadian media that Iraq does in the US, and few give it more than a passing thought. The government in power (not a single Jewish MP or Senator for the Conservatives, btw; 1 out of ~80 for the Liberals) supports the mission, so it was extended. The reasons for their support are various, but I'd pin it mostly on an inferiority complex about the Canadian military, and a desire to simply see them out there doing stuff. It's also allowing us to considerably expand our influence in NATO. Not much more complex than that.

[Commander]

Are 'Separatists' (Bloc Québécois), are they the new 'Nazis' ? :confused:

The way the corporate media is going after them it reminds me of some of these anti KKK people in the US, or the way the BNP in England, or the NPD in Germany get treated.

Wow, are the Asper + CBC media laying it on thick. :jew: :rolleyes:

[Commander]

Watching the news today, these 'people who do not have any extra power or special influence' seem to be using their media (Asper + CBC ) to really smear (poisoning the well @ the very least) the new Liberal-NDP Coalition.

I don't think the billionaires (largely uber-Zionists) in Toronto and Montreal are happy @ the prospect of their boy Steve being dethroned.

[Errigal]

Watching the news today, these 'people who do not have any extra power or special influence' seem to be using their media (Asper + CBC ) to really smear (poisoning the well @ the very least) the new Liberal-NDP Coalition.

I don't think the billionaires (largely uber-Zionists) in Toronto and Montreal are happy @ the prospect of their boy Steve being dethroned.

I have no problem blaming the Jews when necessary but I think you're following a false trail in this case. This parliamentary crisis is just normal politics. Big Jew is not behind it, IMO.

[Hakluyt]

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/12/03/john-ivison-parizeau-beaming-over-eminently-satisfying-deal-with-dion.aspx

...

But the well has been poisoned still further by the decision of the Liberals and NDP to ask the Bloc Québécois to prop up their coalition. The separatists have been offered a “permanent consultation mechanism” that will allow the Bloc to put its imprint on government policy, in the event that the Liberal-led coalition wins power.

Jacques Parizeau, the former Parti Québécois premier of Quebec, said that a coalition government would be weaker than the incumbent, a prospect he said was “eminently satisfying.”

“The fact that the Bloc got Stéphane Dion to sign a political accord in which it is explicitly written that he undertakes to act in partnership with Canadians and the Québécois should bring a smile to the face of many sovereigntists,” Mr. Parizeau wrote.

Ivison: I’m baffled about the statement in the accord that the coalition government will be a partner with Canadians and Quebecers. Don’t we consider Quebecers to be Canadians any more?

McCallum: Of course Quebecers are Canadians. Look, I have to go now.

[Commander]

I have no problem blaming the Jews when necessary but I think you're following a false trail in this case. This parliamentary crisis is just normal politics. Big Jew is not behind it, IMO.

I was talking about the media presentation of it.

The CBC right now is talking about 'cracks are appearing in the coalition'....:rolleyes:

*Aspers own Global,

*CBC, check out who runs it.

[O'Zebedee]

The term "prorogue" has become something of a Canadian internet sensation because of all this.

[Niccolo and Donkey]

The term "prorogue" has become something of a Canadian internet sensation because of all this.

Sure has! I'm gonna prorogue these veal parmigiana sandwich.

[O'Zebedee]

Man, I was downtown when I saw these two cars totally prorogue each other - it was wicked awesome.

[O'Zebedee]

This is turning up everywhere for mockery as well:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/ozebedee/n602981422_1569360_2661.jpg

The fuck? Is it a photoshop job? Harper fairly oozes strangeness in this one.

[DonkeyKong]

The NDP and liberals will remain seperate parties and vote differently on bills. They'll call an election and split their vote like last election. Then people will be pissed off by the election call, still won't like Dion or Layton, and the conservatives will get a majority just so we don't have to put up with more elections. If Rae leads the liberal party, they'll get nothing in Ontario, NDP and Conservatives will get more.

Unless the two parties become one, any talks of "coalition" is just a waste of time and taxpayer money.

There's no danger of a Liberal-NDP merger any time soon...that's right out the window. What is interesting in this dynamic is the reliance on the Bloc, a party intent upon breaking up Canada, to support this coalition. Mix that in with Dion stepping down and the recipe is for some pretty serious political uncertainty for the time being.

The Conservatives are actually looking like the good guys here since they can point the finger at the NDP and Liberals for two reasons:

1. Defending tax money going to parties based on votes received
2. Allying with the anti-Canadian Bloc Quebecois

So the NDP and Liberals are gunning for a Conservative majority?

now read this:

"Support for tories up"
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/12/04/parliament-poll.html

and

"Doubts about the Liberals' commitment to their coalition with the NDP are coming to light in the wake of Gov. Gen. Michaëlle Jean's decision to grant Prime Minister Stephen Harper's request to suspend Parliament."
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/12/04/opposition-parliament.html

It's pretty freaking sad that we can see this coming from a mile away, and a guy whose party (parties) might lead the country can't. Harper and crew are the smart ones in there.

[Commander]

re; post #69 (thanks for posting those items btw)

Those 2 CBC items, to me, strongly indicate the big money people do not want their boy (Harper) dethroned.

They will use their media to manipulate the Canadian masses, which, no doubt, is not that difficult of a thing to do.

[DonkeyKong]

re; post #69 (thanks for posting those items btw)

Those 2 CBC items, to me, strongly indicate the big money people do not want their boy (Harper) dethroned.

They will use their media to manipulate the Canadian masses, which, no doubt, is not that difficult of a thing to do.

The media doesn't like Dion. He's bad at english he got his tape in late.

[Hakluyt]

Cracks emerge...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20081205.PARLLIBERALS05/TPStory/National

Rae steps in as coalition's chief salesman

JANE TABER

SENIOR POLITICAL WRITER; With a report from Bill Curry

December 5, 2008

Bob Rae is preparing a coast-to-coast campaign to sell Canadians on the concept of a coalition government, taking over as chief salesman and manoeuvring around Stéphane Dion, whose leadership is becoming increasingly irrelevant.

Mr. Rae, the Toronto Centre MP and Liberal leadership candidate, began staking out his territory yesterday as the champion of a coalition government aimed at taking down Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

"He's going to carry the can," said one of his chief strategists. "He's going to stand up and let his voice be heard and encourage Liberals to hang in and we can take down Harper and put in a good government that will do the right thing."

Michael Ignatieff, Mr. Rae's main rival for the leadership and his former best friend, was not as aggressive in his approach, telling reporters that Liberals will be "thinking hard" and "responsibly" until the Harper Conservatives deliver their budget on Jan. 27.

Many of his supporters are uncomfortable with the idea of a coalition government with the NDP supported by the Bloc Québécois. They have advised him to stay out of a coalition cabinet if one is ever formed. Yesterday, there was a hint of Mr. Ignatieff's hesitancy after it became known he was the very last Liberal to sign a letter endorsing the coalition, which was sent to the Governor-General before her meeting with Mr. Harper.

The Liberal whip had asked caucus members to come to his office at 11 p.m. Wednesday or 7:30 a.m. yesterday to sign the letter; Mr. Ignatieff finally put pen to paper around 10 a.m.

Meanwhile, Mr. Rae left no doubt where he stood on the coalition concept. In a remarkable intervention during a raucous closed-door caucus meeting yesterday, Mr. Rae interrupted Mr. Dion, taking him on for being too conciliatory toward Mr. Harper.

The Prime Minister had just dodged a confidence vote, which he would have surely lost, by winning permission from the Governor-General to shut down Parliament until late January.

Mr. Dion appeared to be open to changing his mind about defeating Mr. Harper's government, saying that a "monumental change" on Mr. Harper's part would alter that.

That phrase angered some Liberals, who began shouting at Mr. Dion, accusing him of not going far enough, according to a caucus insider. That is when Mr. Rae approached the microphone, telling Mr. Dion that even "monumental change" was not acceptable.

Mr. Dion appeared shocked, the insider said.

While the Governor-General provided Mr. Harper with a reprieve yesterday in the game of parliamentary chicken that has been playing out for the past week, the NDP and the Bloc are still vowing to keep the coalition together. But the clear victim in yesterday's proceedings was Mr. Dion, who has put so much of his personal capital into the initiative that he was hoping to lead.

Just days after emerging as a hero with an accord in hand, he appeared yesterday as a wounded leader who botched a major national address with an amateur video that didn't even get to air on time.

"He cooked up this deal," the Rae strategist said. "He did not cut people in. He drove it and his team and the results were there for all to see. ... The question for the Liberal Party now is, in a world where we're not likely to have Dion in the deal, do we get rid of the deal along with Dion or do we keep the deal?"

Several MPs suggested to Mr. Dion yesterday that a new leader should be in place by January in the event the government is defeated over the budget, and the Governor-General grants the Prime Minister dissolution rather than choosing the coalition government.

"We need to be prepared," Nova Scotia MP Scott Brison said, according to an insider. "We need to get the leader in place." Although Mr. Brison praised Mr. Dion for weakening Mr. Harper's leadership by successfully forming the coalition, he and several other MPs said Canadians have to be given the chance to get to know the new Liberal leader. If there was a snap election, it wouldn't make sense for Mr. Dion to run for Prime Minister only to be replaced by someone else in May, they said.

Scarborough MP Jim Karygiannis broke ranks outside of caucus, saying he wants Mr. Dion to leave "sooner than later."

Mr. Ignatieff and Mr. Rae, however, dismissed any notion of replacing Mr. Dion before the May leadership convention.

"Questions of leadership are not of the hour," said Mr. Ignatieff, who criticized Mr. Karygiannis for calling for the leader to resign.

The Rae strategist said Mr. Rae isn't even bothering to worry about a leadership change, however: "We can't wait around for that because if we tie our view on the coalition to sorting out leadership mechanics, the whole thing is going to fall apart. So Rae is just saying, 'Gun the engine, man, let's go.' "

The advantage yesterday went to Mr. Rae, as the leadership race is evolving into a bare-knuckle fight that doesn't play to Mr. Ignatieff's more patrician strengths. Mr. Ignatieff evoked the ghost of Aristotle in a scrum, while a combative Mr. Rae called the Harper government "illegitimate" and accused the PM of asking for prorogation because he's "afraid to show up for work."

Still, Mr. Ignatieff is winning the leadership race, according to a new Globe and Mail/CTV poll by the Strategic Counsel. The poll shows that 32 per cent of Canadians say Mr. Ignatieff is the "preferred Liberal winner," compared to 22 per cent for Mr. Rae and 9 per cent for New Brunswick MP Dominic LeBlanc; 37 per cent of respondents don't know.

And while Mr. Ignatieff is to travel to New Brunswick today, Mr. Rae and his team are preparing to attend rallies across the country in support of a coalition government. He is also going to take to the airwaves.

"He's going to campaign for this thing because the Conservatives are going to unleash a full-style campaign against the coalition," the Rae strategist said. "And Rae is going to war on that ... Rae is planting his flag and he's planting it from coast to coast."

[Hakluyt]

This is turning up everywhere for mockery as well:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/ozebedee/n602981422_1569360_2661.jpg

The fuck? Is it a photoshop job? Harper fairly oozes strangeness in this one.
I love that picture. This is one of Harper's best qualities as a politician, and also as a man - the strangeness emitted whenever he's forced into a corny pose like that proves he's not a babykisser. He fails miserably at the cynical PR game; he's gotten as far as he has on 0 charisma and no accomodaton from the media in terms of a positive image. He isn't even able to play the 'average guy' role - thought he tries - because his mannerisms are that of an introverted academic rather than a Molson-drinking Ft. McMurrian. I strongly sympathise with that.

[DonkeyKong]

That's good news about Ignatieff being first in that race. He seems like a no-nonsense guy. That's what the liberals need if they want to get back any semblance of a decent reputation among Canadians.

As for the Harper with kitten picture... I gotta agree with you 100% Hak. We don't need an "average Joe" or hollywood sweetheart to run the country. We need a prime minister.

[DonkeyKong]

Apparently, Mr. Ignatieff was very hesitant to agree to the coalition. I bet he's kicking himself right now for signing on.

Jean Cretien as interim leader of the Liberal party, IMO.

[Errigal]

Apparently, Mr. Ignatieff was very hesitant to agree to the coalition. I bet he's kicking himself right now for signing on.

Jean Cretien as interim leader of the Liberal party, IMO.

Anything that throws up obstacles between Prof. Iggy and the Prime Minister's job is cool with me. Ignatieff manages the nearly impossible feat of being both boring and dangerous at the same time.

[Commander]

Bob Rae is a better option of Ignatieff.

That guy (Ignatieff) reminds me of a snake oil salesman.

[Errigal]

Bob Rae is a better option of Ignatieff.

That guy (Ignatieff) reminds me of a snake oil salesman.

The two were roommates at university.

[Commander]

The two were roommates at university.
That's nice, but also what, 40+ years ago?

At least Ray lived in Canada most of his life.

Ignatieff lived in New York City all those years. It's like a crime family from there sends a rep. to Canada to look out for their interests.

[Errigal]

That's nice, but also what, 40+ years ago?

At least Ray lived in Canada most of his life.

Ignatieff lived in New York City all those years. It's like a crime family from there sends a rep. to Canada to look out for their interests.

His 20-plus yrs hideaway was "progressive" London. He's considered a "top intellectual":
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/topintellectuals.html

And yet his judgement is crap.

[Commander]

His 20-plus yrs hideaway was "progressive" London. He's considered a "top intellectual":
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/topintellectuals.html

And yet his judgement is crap.

'Mainstream' Media seems to be pushing Ignatieff, that sets off alarm bells.

Bob Rae, I am familiar with him, he is who I would prefer, but who knows, we'll see what will happen. The 'power people' seem to always get their way.

Ignatieff, ... something real creepy about that guy. :6:

[Errigal]

'Mainstream' Media seems to be pushing Ignatieff, that sets off alarm bells.

Bob Rae, I am familiar with him, he is who I would prefer, but who knows, we'll see what will happen. The 'power people' seem to always get their way.

Ignatieff, ... something real creepy about that guy. :6:

http://www.news.utoronto.ca/img/2005/ignatieff.jpg

He looks like a combination of Rasputin:

http://www.romanov-memorial.com/Pic/Hist_Rasputin.jpg

and the maker of syrup-covered pop ballads, Chris de Burgh:

http://www.cdeb.com/cdebnew/pics/Chris-de-Burgh4.jpg

[harjit]

...the maker of syrup-covered pop ballads, Chris de Burgh:
http://www.cdeb.com/cdebnew/pics/Chris-de-Burgh4.jpg
A good white Irishman.

He's the only syrupy pop balladeer whose songs gave me nightmares as a kid.

[DonkeyKong]

Ignatieff:

Fluent in English, French and Russian (his grandfather was in the government of Russia's Tsar Nicholas II), Ignatieff, 61, has written 16 books, with titles such as Blood and Belonging and The Rights Revolution, exploring themes of nationalism, modern warfare and human rights.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/12/08/leadership-contenders.html

I'd like to see him be PM only to piss off Poles. :p

[Commander]

Canada, for a white person (not a self-hating white) , it boils down to choosing the candidate that is the least 'kill whitey', without being too much of a shill for Israel and it's agents in Canada.

It's such a nice choice. :rageagainstthepc: :internut:

[Errigal]

Canada, for a white person (not a self-hating white) , it boils down to choosing the candidate that is the least 'kill whitey', without being too much of a shill for Israel and it's agents in Canada.

It's such a nice choice. :rageagainstthepc: :internut:

"Kill whitey" WTF are you talking about? If you're getting the old Dominions of the British Empire mixed up just remember Canada is the one with snow, South Africa is the one in Africa.

[Commander]

"Kill whitey" WTF are you talking about? If you're getting the old Dominions of the British Empire mixed up just remember Canada is the one with snow, South Africa is the one in Africa.

Hey Errigal, guess what, I'm not interested in what Zionist apologist/semi-professional false information disseminators have to say :)

____________


re ; Bob Rae

Looks like word came down from the Cahilla, Rae is gone, that didn't take long. :whip:

I guess he wasn't Israel 1st and anti-white enough for the 'big boys'.

Not to mention his ethnic/religious background would have given him a certain amount of immunity from the usual smear/pressure tactics of the more rabid Zionists.

That's too bad really, now Canada is stuck with a Steven Harper 'light'. :sick:

[Errigal]

Hey Errigal, guess what, I'm not interested in what Zionist apologist/semi-professional false information disseminators have to say :)

Check some of my other posts. If I'm a Zionist agent I must be the Manchurian Candidate type.


re ; Bob Rae

Looks like word came down from the Cahilla, Rae is gone, that didn't take long. :whip:

I guess he wasn't Israel 1st and anti-white enough for the 'big boys'.

Not to mention his ethnic/religious background would have given him a certain amount of immunity from the usual smear/pressure tactics of the more rabid Zionists.

That's too bad really, now Canada is stuck with a Steven Harper 'light'. :sick:

I can't make any sense of your theory.

[Commander]

I can't make any sense of your theory.
Even though I strongly suspect I am being baited, and you know full well what I am talking about, I will respond. (this may benefit others).

Cahilla ( a term not that often used)

http://www.israelect.com/reference/WillieMartin/Cahilla.htm

Bob Rae is of Jewish background, hence the certain level of immunity from the usual dirty tricks/attacks/pressure tactics of the more rabid Zionists.

He is also a socialist, and someone with a few morals. In short, a very bad man for the :ziotard: gang.

[Commander]

I just watched the CBC news from Vancouver, now they are saying Ignatieff, who was on-board with this coalition, may not go through with it.

I bet it will all fall apart. :munch:

The :ziotard: always get their way in :canuck: land.

[Hakluyt]

I just watched the CBC news from Vancouver, now they are saying Ignatieff, who was on-board with this coalition, may not go through with it.

I bet it will all fall apart. :munch:

The :ziotard: always get their way in :canuck: land.
So, in your enlightened opinion, what do Jews want more out of the Canadian government: social liberalism and increased immigration, or nominal support for Israel? If the latter comes without the former, can you explain to a Canadian nationalist who is indifferent to Jews and Israel why I should care?

[Commander]

So, in your enlightened opinion, what do Jews want more out of the Canadian government: social liberalism and increased immigration, or nominal support for Israel?
That's a difficult question to answer. I don't know. Really, I don't care either.

If the latter comes without the former, can you explain to a Canadian nationalist who is indifferent to Jews and Israel why I should care?
I don't believe there is such a thing as a 'Canadian Nationalist' in the true meaning of that term. It's fantasy, just like 'White Nationalism' is fantasy.

[Hakluyt]

That's a difficult question to answer. I don't know. Really, I don't care either.
Unless you can answer the second question, this part is purely rhetorical.

I don't believe there is such a thing as a 'Canadian Nationalist' in the true meaning of that term. It's fantasy, just like 'White Nationalism' is fantasy.
In other words you have no response, as usual. That you are shameless enough to post in a thread where you've already been slapped around speaks volumes about you: too oblivious to even hide yourself.

There was once a time on the Phora where posts like yours were summarily deleted.

[Commander]

Unless you can answer the second question, this part is purely rhetorical.


In other words you have no response, as usual. That you are shameless enough to post in a thread where you've already been slapped around speaks volumes about you: too oblivious to even hide yourself.

There was once a time on the Phora where posts like yours were summarily deleted.
You are condescending, irrational, and with opinions about as valid as those of 'White Nationalists'. :)

The only 'Nationalist' in the true sense of the word, in the western hemisphere is Hugo Chavez. Evo Morales is another. (Cuba's leadership is not really 'Nationalist', it is more Communist)

It is not possible to have a valid 'Nationalist' movement, and extremely powerful Israel lobby groups like the B'Nai Brith (and to a lesser extent the CJC) operating in the same country. At least not in Canada. Any group they (Israel lobbyists) would see as a legitimate threat, would be crushed.

[Commander]

Yup it's a done deal, the impudent little people have been put in their place. That's that. :canuck: :rolleyes:

[Commander]

The Lesser Evil approach

Ignatieff has argued that Western democracies may have to resort to "lesser evils" like indefinite detention of suspects, coercive interrogations,[24] targeted assassinations, and pre-emptive wars in order to combat the greater evil of terrorism. [25] He states that as a result, societies should strengthen their democratic institutions to keep these necessary evils from becoming as offensive to freedom and democracy as the threats they are meant to prevent.[26] In the context of this "lesser evil" analysis, Ignatieff discusses whether or not liberal democracies should employ coercive interrogation and torture. The 'Lesser Evil' approach has been criticized by some prominent human rights advocates, like Conor Gearty, for incorporating a problematic form of moral language that can be used to legitimize forms of torture.[27] But other human rights advocates, like Human Rights Watch's Kenneth Roth, have defended Ignatieff, saying his work attempts a difficult balance between competing values.[28] Ignatieff has adamantly maintained that he supports a complete ban on torture.[29]

Wow, this guy should be sworn in in Hebrew. That sounds word for word the policy of Israel. :ziotard: :6:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Ignatieff

[harjit]

I wonder how Ameritard Stormfronters would react if Michael Ignatieff eventually becomes Prime Minister but there is widespread confusion that he's Noel Ignatiev (http://www.racetraitor.org/abolishthepoint.html). :rofl:

[Commander]

I wonder how Ameritard Stormfronters would react if Michael Ignatieff eventually becomes Prime Minister but there is widespread confusion that he's Noel Ignatiev (http://www.racetraitor.org/abolishthepoint.html). :rofl:
They're 2 different people? :confused: ;)

[Errigal]

I wonder how Ameritard Stormfronters would react if Michael Ignatieff eventually becomes Prime Minister but there is widespread confusion that he's Noel Ignatiev (http://www.racetraitor.org/abolishthepoint.html). :rofl:

I wonder how Noel got that last name. Michael got his through his part-Russian ancestry. His great-grandfather was instrumental in bringing about the anti-Jewish "May Laws". Now Michael grovels at the feet of Big Jew. It's a funny old world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Pavlovich_Ignatiev
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Laws