Atrocities committed by the Red Army on women and children as reported by a Russian

[Nordicist]

Via Fred Scrooby from MajorityRights.com

The gallant 'Allies' of Britain and America.

Lev Kopelev was a major with the first Red Army units to enter East Prussia. In his book "To Be Preserved Forever" (I have an abridged edition, 500 pages shorter than the unabridged) he described the rapes, the random deliberate killings—shootings, bayonettings, beatings, woundings, maimings—of East Prussian civilians of all ages from young children to adults to the elderly, and the destruction—mainly setting homes and buildings on fire—which started as soon as the Russians entered Prussia, and went on continually while they were advancing. All ages were raped and it was pretty common to simply kill the female after the man or men had finished with her, by stabbing or shooting her and leaving her to die. Kopelev said it was common for 20 or 30 men to line up to rape a woman who might be tied spread-eagled to the gound till they finished. They were raped in front of their children, anywhere. There were young Prussian mothers who, terrified, were raped willingly, in the hope the soldiers wouldn’t kill or beat their young children who were with them—and the children often got beaten or killed anyway, along with the mother who’d just been raped. The women raped weren’t just Germans. During the war there were lots of Russian, Dutch, French, Belgian, Ukrainian, and Polish men and women in Germany doing forced labor on farms and in cities, and these foreign women were raped right along with the German women. Red Army officers might try to stop the men from raping women who weren’t German but weren’t always present, didn’t always try to stop them, and might take part in it. Here and there the Russian General Staff sporadically ordered junior officers to crack down on the rape, pillage, and drunkenness when it threatened to turn the army into a rabble vulnerable to German counterattack. From the book: “At [Red Army general-]staff headquarters, the usual flurry of activity. The Germans—it isn’t clear how many, but they have tanks and motorized artillery—are trying to break out of encirclement. The staff has other worries as well: the looting, the [raping of] women, the drunkenness, are undermining morale. One division commander, we are told, personally shot a lieutenant who was lining up a group of men before a German woman spread-eagled on the ground. Several [liberated] Russian girls, shipped to Germany for forced labor, have been hired as waitresses in the [Red Army field] headquarters mess. ‘One of them,’ our informant recounts, ‘beautiful, young, cheerful, hair like gold tumbling down her back—some [Red Army] soldiers, drunk, I guess, were walking down the street, saw her—‘Hey, Fritzie, hey, you bitch!’—and a spray from a submachine gun across her back. She didn’t live an hour. Kept crying, ‘What for?’ She had just written her mother that she’d be coming home.”
Things like getting randomly sprayed by machine-gun fire just like that, in the street, by a Russian soldier letting off steam, drunk, or suddenly deciding to have some target practice, were a constant danger for German civilians in East Prussia.
Kopelev kept protesting all the savagery to his fellow officers and superiors.
“The sergeant pales and jumps back into the truck; the others hop onto the back, and the truck races off. We drive on in silence. Belayev says,
“ ‘What can you do? It’s war; people become brutalized.’
“ ‘Come on, Sasha, don’t try to make excuses. Why did that old woman have to be killed? It was despicable, and I’m despicable for letting it happen. Is this the kind of victory we dreamt of? Can this be the Red Army? Why, it’s no better than Makhno’s bands. I’ve got a book here in my bag published in Königsberg twenty years ago, "Russian Troops in East Prussia.” It’s about August 1914. Written by a German historian—a civil servant, a nationalist. He did his best to dig up everything bad about the Russians. And what did he come up with? Two cases of rape. Several cases of robbery, beatings, one or two cases of murder. And in each case, Russian officers stepped in, tried to stop it, handed out punishment. The German author enumerates all the chickens killed, all the fruit trees smashed, all the faces slapped. Whenever he can, he brings in the rudeness, the barbarousness. And do you know, to read that book today is frightening—frightening and humiliating. Those were Czarist armies. And to think how much worse we are! And the shame of it falls on us, the officers, the [communist] political instructors.’ “
For protests like that made to his fellow officers during the fighting, Kopelev was arrested and tried after the war and sent to the gulag for ten years for “anti-Soviet activities,” “showing pity for the Germans,” and “undermining the morale of the Soviet soldiers.”
Though he ran afoul of the Soviet authorities many more times before his death several years ago, Kopelev never lost his faith in communism, remaining an idealistic believer to the end.

[Vindex]

Well the Russians would be a tad upset at the Germans given the fact they invaded there Nation and killed around 20 or more million of there People. That is the tides of war plain and simple.

[Péter]

In Hungary they makes movies about such things.

The Russians also did similar things in 1956.

[Gleb]

Wehrmacht Ober-Gefreite (lance-corporal) Iohannes Gerder in his diary during the first months of staying in Belorussia:

"August, 25. We throw grenades at houses where people live. The houses easily catch fire and burn down fast. Fire jumps over to other log huts. What a spectacular view! People cry and we laught at their tears. We have burnt about 10 villages this way.
August, 29. We grabbed 12 people who we came across in a village and took them to a cemetery. We made them dig a deep and ample grave for themselves.
There is no and there can be no mercy for the Slavs. Damned humanity is alien to us."

http://www.khatyn.by/photo/im_31.jpg http://www.khatyn.by/photo/im_33.jpg http://www.khatyn.by/photo/im_32.jpg

http://www.khatyn.by/photo/im_35.jpg http://www.khatyn.by/photo/im_36.jpg
...
1943 was known as the year of large-scale pacificatory operations. Motor divisions, tanks and aviation took an active part in them. Fascists cruelly killed civilians, seized their cattle and grain, robbed them of their property, by force sent able-bodied citizens for penal servitude in Germany. Those who stayed were burnt alive or shot. Fire was set to all dwellings turning vast territories into a "desert". Fascists burned dozens of villages, annihilated about 10 thousand people and sent more than 6 thousand people to Germany during the punitive operation which bore the name of "Kottbus" in May and June 1943. They had mercy neither for women, nor for children, not even for the old. In July and August of 1943 a punitive operation "German" was carried out in the regions of Korelichy, Novogrudok, Ivie, Volozhin, Stolbtsy and others. A particular feature of it was that together with mass annihilations of people and burnings of villages, fascists also largely captured labour force for sending them to serve the German Reich. There were many children among these people as well.

In autumn and winter of 1943 - 1944 the policy of 'scorched earth' became more widely spread. There were special crews of incendiaries who had to totally devastate the occupied lands at the command of Wehrmacht during the last period of fascist occupation. Their task was to ravage the land when German troops were retreating. The population was killed or taken to Germany. Mass annihilation of settlements together with inhabitants was one of the main ways of implementing the policy of total devastation and of 'scorched earth'. As a rule, people were driven in a shed or a house or a barn, which was then locked and put to fire. Thus, a village of Dalva in Logoisk region was burnt with all its inhabitants some days before the liberation of Belorussia.

Vast territories were turned into deserts.
...

www.khatyn.by

[Slavic Enforcer]

Russians who did rape mothers beside their children, yeah right..

The Russians were no Angels, but this is such a bullshit that I think the best would had been to deport the East Germans to Siberia.

[Gleb]

http://www.khatyn.by/photo/im_1.jpg

"The Russian must die for us to live"

Public executions in Minsk

http://www.khatyn.by/photo/im_2.jpg http://www.khatyn.by/photo/im_8.jpg

The following figures are further proof to the scale of crimes. The number of annihilated settlements with the inhabitants during punitive operations:

Unrestored Restored Altogether
186 442 628

The number of settlements destroyed together with only part of the inhabitants:

Unrestored Restored Altogether
325 4342 4667

In all: 5295.

Thus, over 5295 settlements were destroyed by fascists together with all or part of inhabitants during punitive action (out of 9200 settlements, burnt and annihilated in Belorussia during the Great Patriotic War). 243 villages were burned down twice, 83 villages thrice and 22 villages were burned down 4 times and more in Vitebsk region. 92 villages were burned down twice, 40 villages thrice, 9 villages four times and 6 villages five and more times were burned in Minsk region.

3% of all 5295 villages were destroyed in 1941. 16% - in 1942. 63% - in 1943. 18% - in 1944.

The outcome of the genocide policy and of the "scorched earth" policy was that 2 230 000 people were killed in Belorussia within the three years of occupation. Every fourth person died. And according to the refined data, every third person in Belarus was killed.

[Kodos]

Russians who did rape mothers beside their children, yeah right..

The Russians were no Angels, but this is such a bullshit that I think the best would had been to deport the East Germans to Siberia.

The fanatical nazis tended to be found among the Southern and Western( predominantly catholic) Germans... the Prussians generally didn't like it.

The Russians were horrendous when they overran Germany but it was nothing worse then the Germans themselves did, and in the end they didn't exterminate most of the population( as Hitler openly planned to do, keeping 15-20% around as a helot population).

[Sulla the Dictator]

Via Fred Scrooby from MajorityRights.com

The gallant 'Allies' of Britain and America.

Ah yes....the selective decision to find eye witness testimony credible.

Until I see a few million rape kits, I'll have to reserve judgement on the East German hoax. :rolleyes:

[Kodos]

Ah yes....the selective decision to find eye witness testimony credible.

Until I see a few million rape kits, I'll have to reserve judgement on the East German hoax. :rolleyes:

LOL( goring the ox of the holocaust deniers) they did rape just about every German chick they came upon. Still payback is a bitch...

[Berianidze]

Assuming any of this is true to the extent the author wishes us to believe, I am completely unphased. Firstly, the Germans got nothing they didn't deserve and I could really care less about what "atrocities" were committed against their people.

[Pablo Escobar]

Assuming any of this is true to the extent the author wishes us to believe, I am completely unphased. Firstly, the Germans got nothing they didn't deserve and I could really care less about what "atrocities" were committed against their people.

Yeah. Everyone is whining about atrocities, yet everyone does it.
It's not going to stop, but people will eventually stop caring about the whiners.

[Sulla the Dictator]

LOL( goring the ox of the holocaust deniers) they did rape just about every German chick they came upon. Still payback is a bitch...

Sure. The Soviets were barbarians. However, while the Germans were Soviet allies by CHOICE we in the West were allied to the USSR by necessity and circumstance.

Circumstance caused by Germany, it should be noted.

[President Camacho]

The Russians were horrendous when they overran Germany but it was nothing worse then the Germans themselves did, and in the end they didn't exterminate most of the population( as Hitler openly planned to do, keeping 15-20% around as a helot population).
Most of the stuff the Germans did was (as many would argue later in the war), "following orders". The mass rapes by the Soviets just showed they lacked discipline. In fact, I recall Kruschev giving an order to his officers explicitly commanding that the Russians do NOT engage in such activities in Berlin (he wanted to put on a good face for Russian PR) , but nevertheless, in Berlin the records indicate that close to 100,000 German women were raped.

[Sinclair]

It is really a tragedy that the Nazis got into power, and that countries such as France and England let Nazi Germany gain power to the point of war.

[Excorcism]

I hate to be an ass, but I'll have to quote General Sherman from the American Civil War.

"War is cruel. War is cruelty"

I remember hearing the numbers being about 2 million East German women being raped by the Soviet forces. The odd thing is, alot of the soldiers from Russia were form the Ukraine, who initially took up the German with open arms when they first came in. Seems the Germans did some fucked up stuff to the Ukrainians in WWII in order for them to treat them back as such.

[Pablo Escobar]

I remember hearing the numbers being about 2 million East German women being raped by the Soviet forces. The odd thing is, alot of the soldiers from Russia were form the Ukraine, who initially took up the German with open arms when they first came in. Seems the Germans did some fucked up stuff to the Ukrainians in WWII in order for them to treat them back as such.

They did, but, even if they didn't, armies just ...do such things...

[Thomas777]

I have no doubt that the Red Army launched a truly barbarian invasion of Europe in 1945...I have posted extensively about the disgust I feel for the absolution of the USSR in American academia. That said, it still doesn't mitigate German war crimes, IMO.

[Empress Cheesatine]

Well the Russians would be a tad upset at the Germans given the fact they invaded there Nation and killed around 20 or more million of there People. That is the tides of war plain and simple.

What evidence is there that Germany killed 20 million Russians?

[Ahknaton]

Exactly how were German rape victims "getting what they deserved"? How are German women guilty for atrocities committed by German soldiers? Let alone children...

[Sulla the Dictator]

What evidence is there that Germany killed 20 million Russians?

What evidence is there that Russian soldiers raped millions of German women?

[Ahknaton]

That said, it still doesn't mitigate German war crimes, IMO.Agreed. The two should be considered independently.

It's not as if a Russian rapist would have been raping German women out of some sense of reciprocation for the evils inflicted on Russians. Rape is the simple indulgence of base urges, and "revenge" is simply a rationalisation.

[Empress Cheesatine]

Exactly how were German rape victims "getting what they deserved"? How are German women guilty for atrocities committed by German soldiers? Let alone children...

Lets also point out that many of the Germans here were ETHNIC Germans and not German citizens - they did not vote for Hitler and many were conscripted into the SS.

This is the usual anti-German horse crap at play. On the one hand, these "humanitarians" howl ferociously that Jews were blanket-indicted and collectively punished and on the other hand shout in glee when its done to German children born in Romania.

Obviously there is a lot of brainwashing at play.

[Empress Cheesatine]

I will say there IS a difference in the WWII atrocity issue - Germans, and only Germans, have not been allowed to speak of what they went through and mourn their dead.

Only now are a few words beginning to trickle out of the elderly population, and fewer words are being put into writing. There is such a blanket silence on this issue that people do not know that Germans were the victims of the largest act of ethnic cleansing in human history, and when notified of it many people outright deny it.

Good reading on this topic are books by Alfred deZayas. Here is a good speech of his on the subject. http://www.meaus.com/Expulsion_of_Germans.html

[Donny the Punk]

As Hitler used the canard of 'persecuted exile populations' to manipulate Germans into supporting his conquest, it's a seemingly logical reaction that the countries which fell to the Nazi sword would want to remove that impetus in the future.

[A. Radek]

It was the German atrocities during their drive iinto the Soviet Union that allowed Stalin to rally his people much quicker than he would normally have been able to do. It's just stupid policy to give your enemy potent ammo to use against you.

The morons currently in the White House and at Abu Ghaib didn't learn squat from history, and neither did the morons leading policy in Viet Nam.

[Nordicist]

Russians who did rape mothers beside their children, yeah right..

The Russians were no Angels, but this is such a bullshit that I think the best would had been to deport the East Germans to Siberia.

I'm just curious, I see that you live in Germany...what is your ethnic background?

[Zander]

I could care less about "russian atrocities" in germany, Nazis started shit and killed 22 millions russians during the war, raped 10 millions of russian women, they wanted war, they got it, and they deserved what happened to them.

[Empress Cheesatine]

As Hitler used the canard of 'persecuted exile populations'

It wasn't a canard. After WWI and the dismantling of the Austro-Hungarian empire, ethnic German populations were persecuted and pressured into assimilation by Slavic governments. They were forbidden to German-language education, seats in government, etc.

http://www.hic.hr/books/seeurope/016e-geiger.htm

[Empress Cheesatine]

I could care less about "russian atrocities" in germany, Nazis started shit and killed 22 millions russians during the war, raped 10 millions of russian women, they wanted war, they got it, and they deserved what happened to them.

State your source and re-read post #22 :rolleyes:

[Sulla the Dictator]

It wasn't a canard. After WWI and the dismantling of the Austro-Hungarian empire, ethnic German populations were persecuted and pressured into assimilation by Slavic governments. They were forbidden to German-language education, seats in government, etc.


Rubbish. The Czechs treated the Germans perfectly fine. Germany isn't entitled to land it never owned.

And what are you complaining about? After the end of the war all those Germans didn't have to live under the evil Slavic yolk anymore! They were united under German governments within German borders, just like you pretend you wanted. :p

[Donny the Punk]

It wasn't a canard. After WWI and the dismantling of the Austro-Hungarian empire, ethnic German populations were persecuted and pressured into assimilation by Slavic governments. They were forbidden to German-language education, seats in government, etc.

http://www.hic.hr/books/seeurope/016e-geiger.htm
Ah yes, Nazi Gems of Truth like 'WOMEN AND CHILDREN MOWED DOWN BY ARMOURED CARS. SUDETENS COMPLAIN.' - Der Angriff, 19.10.1938; 'POISON GAS ATTACK ON AUSSIG?' - Borsen Zeitung, same date, are fabulously well-documented. :rofl:

[cerberus]

I'm just curious, I see that you live in Germany...what is your ethnic background?
Now that's a strange question to ask , perhaps even a racist one ?

[Kodos]

Most of the stuff the Germans did was (as many would argue later in the war), "following orders".

Yes, but I think the distinction was lost on the russians...

The mass rapes by the Soviets just showed they lacked discipline. In fact, I recall Kruschev giving an order to his officers explicitly commanding that the Russians do NOT engage in such activities in Berlin (he wanted to put on a good face for Russian PR)

If Khruschev gave such an order( ive never heard of it) Stalin overruled him, Stalin instructed that Soviet soldiers would not be held responsible for crimes commited against civilians on German soil and that rape was nothing.

but nevertheless, in Berlin the records indicate that close to 100,000 German women were raped.

I thought it was actually considerably more... basically every woman between 12 and 60 within east germany...

[Dan Dare]

What evidence is there that Russian soldiers raped millions of German women?

Sulla - my books are currently in storage so I can't quote chapter and verse, but a good reference in this area is Anthony Beevor's "Berlin: The Downfall 1945". IIRC he cites sources, both Russian and German, to verify that more than two million rapes were commited by Red Army personnel during the long retreat on the eastern front.

[Pablo Escobar]

he cites sources, both Russian and German, to verify that more than two million rapes were commited by Red Army personnel

What did they do? Rape one woman two million times?

[cerberus]

Beevor was able to prove that the Red Army knew of and suppressed knowledge of the rape of German civilians.
It was not only German women who sufferred , some people recently freeded from the concentration camp system sufferred , Ex- German prisoners suffered as well.

[ironweed]

Beevor's book was depressing as hell. I'm trying to remember, did Beevor say that the officers were actually afraid of their soldiers? As in, if they tried to stop them they would have been shot down? Or that they actively encouraged this terrorism? And please note that Beevor is no fan of National Socialism.

[Empress Cheesatine]

Rubbish. The Czechs treated the Germans perfectly fine. Germany isn't entitled to land it never owned.

And what are you complaining about? After the end of the war all those Germans didn't have to live under the evil Slavic yolk anymore! They were united under German governments within German borders, just like you pretend you wanted. :p

To quote A Terrible Revenge by Alfred-Maurice deZayas:

Excerpts of the paperback edition, pages 16-19 (referring to the period between the two world wars):

Poland and Czechoslovakia pledged to grant German minorities a certain measure of cultural autonomy, and further guaranteed legal parity with the Slavic majority.

In reality, both states found these obligations to be a burden in later years. They repeatedly declared that the system of minority rights protection constituted an intolerable infringement on their national sovereignty. Therefore the breach of minorities treaties became the rule rather than the exception...

Between 1919 and 1934 several thousand protests were lodged with the League of Nations by Germans in Poland and Czechoslovakia pointing to violations of the minority rights treaty of July 28, 1919.

The main causes of complaint were the extensive confiscations of German farms in Poland and the eviction of the German owners. One typical case came before the Permanent Court of Justice at The Hague, which, on September 10, 1923, rendered an opinion. The court found "that the measures complained of were a virtual annulment of legal rights possessed by the farmers under their contracts, and, being directed in fact against a minority and subjecting it to discriminating and injurious treatment to which other citizens holding contracts for sale or lease were not subject, were a breach of Poland's obligations under the Minorities Treaty.

Similar cases were heard in courts or argued in petitions submitted to the League of Nations up until 1934, when the Polish government unilaterally withdrew from the League's minorities system...

Professor Arnold Toynbee, who had visited Czechoslovakia in 1937, wrote in The Economist,

When you talk to a Czech about the minorities problem in Czechoslovakia, he is apt to begin by making the general statement that Czechoslovakia is a democracy. And when you talk to a member of the German minority, you find that this Czech claim to be democratic is like a red flag to a bull.

The truth is that even the most genuine and old-established democratic way of life is exceedingly difficult to apply when you are dealing with a minority that does not want to live under your rule. We know very well that we ourselves were never able to apply our own British brand of democracy to our attempt to govern the Irish. And in Czechoslovakia to-day the methods by which the Czechs are keeping the upper hand over the Sudendendeutsch are not democratic.

In their post-war intercourse with the Western peoples whom they so pathetically admire, the Britsih infection which the Czechs have caught is not "effortless superiority," but "British hypocrisy," and they have taken it strong! Of all the burdens that the Czechs are carrying out to-day, this vein of disingenuousness is perhaps the worst.


As the situation deteriorated during the summer of 1938, Viscount Walter Runciman, confidant of British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain, travelled to Prague and the Sudentenland on a peace-making mission. He spoke with both sides, and failed. In a report to Chamberlain he confirmed that:

Czech officials and Czech police, speaking little or no German, were appointed in large numbers to purely German districts; Czech agricultural colonists were encouraged to settle on land confiscated under Land Reform in the middle of the German populations; for the children of these Czech invaders Czech schools were built on a large scale; there is a very general belief that Czech firms were favored against German firms in the allocation of State contracts, and that the State provided work and relief for Czechs more readily than for Germans. I believe these complaints to be in the main justified. Even as late as the time of my mission, I could find no readiness on the part of the Czechoslovak Government to remedy them on anything like an adequate scale...
For many reasons, therefore, including the above, the feeling among the Sudenten Germans until about three or four years ago was one of hopelessness. But the rise of Nazi Germany gave them new hope. I regard their turning for help to their kinsmen and their eventual desire to join the Reich as a natural development in circumstances.

----------------------

Discrimination, forced assimilation and land confiscation occurred from Lithuania to Yugoslavia.

[Empress Cheesatine]

Sulla - my books are currently in storage so I can't quote chapter and verse, but a good reference in this area is Anthony Beevor's "Berlin: The Downfall 1945". IIRC he cites sources, both Russian and German, to verify that more than two million rapes were commited by Red Army personnel during the long retreat on the eastern front.

Im quite amazed that anyone even doubts this anymore. This is something that has been common knowledge for many years. Alfred-Maurice deZayas, who is a prolific writer on the German expulsions and Soviet occupation, has written quite extensively about it.

[Empress Cheesatine]

I thought it was actually considerably more... basically every woman between 12 and 60 within east germany...

Even younger, I'll wager. Apparently a good number of these drunken Red Army soldiers were Asiatics from the far eastern parts of the USSR.

German archives contain reports from German soldiers (http://www.geocities.com/avflf/RedTerror_1.htm) from areas they were able to re-capture from the USSR, and record the discoveries of many dead, naked females found with their legs spread open and so forth.

I found this little snippet (http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/stalin.html), I dont know how accurate the numbers are:

By March, as the Western forces reach the Rhine River, Soviet armies have overrun most of Eastern Europe and are converging on Berlin. The Soviets march under the slogan, "There will be no pity. They have sown the wind and now they are harvesting the whirlwind."

Few are spared. As the Soviets move through Germany they rape at least two million German women in an undisciplined advance that is now acknowledged as the largest case of mass rape in history.

Stalin is aware of the rape and looting, but does nothing to prevent it until 20 April, when he issues an order calling on his troops "to change their attitudes towards Germans ... and treat them better". On 3 August Marshal Zhukov follows up Stalin's command, introducing regulations to control "robbery", "physical violence", "scandalous events", and "unsanctioned absences".

From Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago (http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie/~melmoth/ga.html):

For three weeks the war had been going on inside Germany, and all of us knew very well that if the girls were German they could be raped and then shot. This was almost a combat distinction.

[Empress Cheesatine]

:rolleyes: Ah yes, Nazi Gems of Truth like 'WOMEN AND CHILDREN MOWED DOWN BY ARMOURED CARS. SUDETENS COMPLAIN.' - Der Angriff, 19.10.1938; 'POISON GAS ATTACK ON AUSSIG?' - Borsen Zeitung, same date, are fabulously well-documented.

I just gave you a credible source and you refute with it absolutely nothing. Is that CROATIAN historical article a "Nazi Gem of Truth"? I think not. :rolleyes:

[President Camacho]

If Khruschev gave such an order
Oopps, I must have had a lapse, that was my final post last night. I was referring to Zhukov who gave the order.

As for a source, I could probably find one if I scoured enough, but I first saw this on a Hitler Channel program detailing the fighting on the Eastern Front... in fact it might have been "Last Days of the Third Reich", but I'm not sure.

[Empress Cheesatine]

Now that's a strange question to ask , perhaps even a racist one ?

Its a legitimate question. There are Germans and then there are "Germans."

[infoterror]

Well the Russians would be a tad upset at the Germans given the fact they invaded there Nation and killed around 20 or more million of there People. That is the tides of war plain and simple.

...then they won't mind people like me who have a tendency to commit violence against Russians.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Sulla - my books are currently in storage so I can't quote chapter and verse, but a good reference in this area is Anthony Beevor's "Berlin: The Downfall 1945". IIRC he cites sources, both Russian and German, to verify that more than two million rapes were commited by Red Army personnel during the long retreat on the eastern front.

Eye witness testimony? Since when did we start believing in that?

[Sulla the Dictator]

Im quite amazed that anyone even doubts this anymore.

Actually I just reject the idea that a Holocaust denier can believe in any historical atrocity.

[Thomas777]

Actually I just reject the idea that a Holocaust denier can believe in any historical atrocity.

I don't think that most of the people you call "holocaust deniers" claim that Jews were well treated by Nazi forces in the occupied lands, Sulla...I think most of them take exception to the legendary sort of significance that has been granted to Jewish victimization by the political establishment and the academy.

Personally, I believe that Jews, Slavs, Roma and other people were brutalized by the Third Reich in terrible ways...I also believe that the USSR was just as evil as the Third Reich and did similar things to ethnic Germans and Poles. What I don't believe in is racial extermination conspiracies hatched at secret meetings...I also don't believe that the USSR was some benign phenmoneon while the Third Reich was the epitome of human evil.

[Vindex]

That is because they lost the war, and that is the price of losing and being Conquered by your motal enemies.

I will say there IS a difference in the WWII atrocity issue - Germans, and only Germans, have not been allowed to speak of what they went through and mourn their dead.

Only now are a few words beginning to trickle out of the elderly population, and fewer words are being put into writing. There is such a blanket silence on this issue that people do not know that Germans were the victims of the largest act of ethnic cleansing in human history, and when notified of it many people outright deny it.

Good reading on this topic are books by Alfred deZayas. Here is a good speech of his on the subject. http://www.meaus.com/Expulsion_of_Germans.html

[Sulla the Dictator]

I don't think that most of the people you call "holocaust deniers" claim that Jews were well treated by Nazi forces in the occupied lands, Sulla...I think most of them take exception to the legendary sort of significance that has been granted to Jewish victimization by the political establishment and the academy.


Certainly they do. They don't even blame STARVATION in the camps on the Nazis. They blame the Allies for bombing German population centers. They're unwilling to assign any responsibility or blame to the Nazis.

So there is no legitimacy in this rending of clothes. This is a decision to selectively believe in witness testimony. I see no reason why someone who doubts and ridicules a man who talks about his family being killed in a concentration camp should believe another man who says his family was raped.


What I don't believe in is racial extermination conspiracies hatched at secret meetings...


You believe in random, simultaneous, and uncoordinated concentration camps and butchery?


I also don't believe that the USSR was some benign phenmoneon while the Third Reich was the epitome of human evil.

Who said the USSR was benign??

[infoterror]

The bickering in this thread explains why whites are dying out. And good riddance!

[Donny the Punk]

:rolleyes:

I just gave you a credible source and you refute with it absolutely nothing. Is that CROATIAN historical article a "Nazi Gem of Truth"? I think not. :rolleyes:
Hold up a second. You're saying that Nazi claims that Sudeten Germans were being gassed in Aussig are true?

[Gleb]

...then they won't mind people like me who have a tendency to commit violence against Russians.

I support your enthusiasm, my friend. Feel free to come over to Moscow and start commiting violence there. The experience might turn out to be short-lived, but it is well worth it.

[Kodos]

Oopps, I must have had a lapse, that was my final post last night. I was referring to Zhukov who gave the order.

As for a source, I could probably find one if I scoured enough, but I first saw this on a Hitler Channel program detailing the fighting on the Eastern Front... in fact it might have been "Last Days of the Third Reich", but I'm not sure.

It doesn't matter Khruschev was a high ranking political commisar at the time and probably was attached to the forces besieging Berlin.

[Empress Cheesatine]

Actually I just reject the idea that a Holocaust denier can believe in any historical atrocity.

That's the second consecutive stupidest post on this thread you've made. Regarding myself, my "Holocaust denial" comes from many months of research that led me to the conclusion after spending my entire life beforehand blindly believing in it after being continually assaulted by the emotive pap on the televitz.

[Empress Cheesatine]

Hold up a second. You're saying that Nazi claims that Sudeten Germans were being gassed in Aussig are true?

Youre intentionally being an evasive smart ass and Im not wasting time on you.

[Empress Cheesatine]

Eye witness testimony? Since when did we start believing in that?

I hope you believe in it, that's what holds up the holocaust myth.

[Sulla the Dictator]

That's the second consecutive stupidest post on this thread you've made.


This learned statement came after minutes of study. :rofl:


Regarding myself, my "Holocaust denial" comes from many months of research


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

What an impressive study you've made of the subject!

[Sulla the Dictator]

I hope you believe in it, that's what holds up the holocaust myth.


....The Holocaust "myth"....which you don't believe in.....because of eye witness testimony.....

Show me the rape kits.

[Donny the Punk]

Youre intentionally being an evasive smart ass and Im not wasting time on you.
So, you concede the point that Hitler's hyperbolic whinging about German mistreatment in countries whose territory and resources he lusted after were untrue.

I wonder what you think of this:

"Danzig is not the subject of the dispute at all. It is a question of expanding our living space in the East and of securing our food supplies, of the settlement of the Baltic problem. Food supplies can be expected only from thinly populated areas. Over and above the natural fertility, thorough- going German exploitation will enormously increase the surplus."
- Adolf Hitler, "Top Secret "To be transmitted by officer only "Minutes of a Conference on 23 May 1939," in Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Volume One, (United States Government Printing Office, Washington, 1946), 390-400

[Empress Cheesatine]

....The Holocaust "myth"....which you don't believe in.....because of eye witness testimony.....

Show me the rape kits.

This thread seems to be full of condescending idiots.:rolleyes:

[Empress Cheesatine]

So, you concede the point that Hitler's hyperbolic whinging about German mistreatment in countries whose territory and resources he lusted after were untrue.

I dont concede any of your points. You are trying to claim that ethnic Germans in eastern Europe were not mistreated between the two world wars by throwing up a smoke screen of some crap from a Third Reich newspaper. Address my points directly, don't try to go off on a tangent.

I have already made at least 2 rather lengthy posts in this thread about mistreatment of ethnic Germans and have stated the sources. I see no reason to continue to add to this, its adequate on its own.

[Sulla the Dictator]

This thread seems to be full of condescending idiots.:rolleyes:

Please identify the compelling evidence in this historical event you believe in that you find lacking in the Holocaust after your hours of reading websites on the subject.

[Donny the Punk]

I dont concede any of your points. You are trying to claim that ethnic Germans in eastern Europe were not mistreated between the two world wars by throwing up a smoke screen of some crap from a Third Reich newspaper. Address my points directly, don't try to go off on a tangent.
No, my original point was that because Hitler used the CANARD of massive ethnic German murder by Slavs to justify his conquests in the minds of the German people, it makes sense that the countries on its receiving end would want to remove that impetus in the future.

As a racist, your complaining about people of a foreign culture (and race, according to Nazis!) not having access to education in their own language in a country which isn't theirs is laughable. Since when is the NSDAP dedicated to multiculturalism?

[Empress Cheesatine]

No, my original point was that because Hitler used the CANARD of massive ethnic German murder by Slavs to justify his conquests in the minds of the German people, it makes sense that the countries on its receiving end would want to remove that impetus in the future.

As a racist, your complaining about people of a foreign culture (and race, according to Nazis!) not having access to education in their own language in a country which isn't theirs is laughable. Since when is the NSDAP dedicated to multiculturalism?

You assume Im NSDAP? Sorry, you guessed wrong. Its simply not historically accurate to say Germans had no claim to any of that land. IMO since they had difficulty getting along, the land should have been divided up in the fairest way possible. I am a pan-Aryanist, I do not look down on white ethnic groups which I do not belong to.

My point was not about Hitler saying this or that to justify his actions, my point was to show that Germans were in fact mistreated the entire time. My knowledge of this subject is not due to my being a "racist," but rather the child of one of the ethnic German expellees. Most of my reading on the topic of WWII has been for genealogical purposes. I know little of the Third Reich and less of Hitler's policymaking.

[Empress Cheesatine]

Please identify the compelling evidence in this historical event you believe in that you find lacking in the Holocaust after your hours of reading websites on the subject.

Are you asking what evidence I find lacking?

How about consistent witness testimony? How about physical evidence? How about German documentation ordering it? How about budgeting for it?

Look at websites such as Nizkor. One of their biggest sources is crap from the Nuremburg trials. It was a show trial from start to finish, and even holocaust historians such as Lipstadt admit there were no human skin items ever made. That means she is indirectly admitting Nuremburg was a sham, so why do they keep sourcing it to prove themselves?

Beliving the idea of the "mass gassing of Jews" is about as stupid as believing in Iraqi moble WMD labs.

[Donny the Punk]

Beliving the idea of the "mass gassing of Jews" is about as stupid as believing in Iraqi moble WMD labs.
I know little of the Third Reich and less of Hitler's policymaking.
Amusing. Happy reading: http://thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4511

[Empress Cheesatine]

Yeah. Everyone is whining about atrocities, yet everyone does it.
It's not going to stop, but people will eventually stop caring about the whiners.

I hope that will someday include Jews.

[Empress Cheesatine]

Amusing. Happy reading: http://thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4511

Nuremburg... What did I just say about that?

[Sulla the Dictator]

This guy's too easy.

[Donny the Punk]

Nuremburg... What did I just say about that?
Nothing that applies to the evidence contained therein. Or are you admitting you're too bigoted to consider the facts that are presented to you? I thought you were sooooo 'enlightened.'

[Sulla the Dictator]

Nothing that applies to the evidence contained therein. Or are you admitting you're too bigoted to consider the facts that are presented to you? I thought you were sooooo 'enlightened.'

He's spent weeks studying the issue.

[Donny the Punk]

He's spent weeks studying the issue.
Between episodes of South Park and being made to clean his room, no doubt. :p

[Empress Cheesatine]

Nothing that applies to the evidence contained therein. Or are you admitting you're too bigoted to consider the facts that are presented to you? I thought you were sooooo 'enlightened.'

That page had references to Nuremburg and Hoess' testimony which is widely known to have been obtained after torture, as were many of the "confessions" of German officials.

You're back to square one, bud. You have no business referencing a farcial trial as "evidence" of a crime.

[Donny the Punk]

That page had references to Nuremburg and Hoess' testimony which is widely known to have been obtained after torture, as were many of the "confessions" of German officials.

You're back to square one, bud. You have no business referencing a farcial trial as "evidence" of a crime.
You really are a child. :p That was Höß' affidavit, not his testimony, and we only know that because he says so in his memoirs, which confirm everything he said at Nuremberg anyway. :p But I can see your scholarly standards of "Jew-Bolshevik show trials invalidate every scrap of evidence for the Holocaust!!1" haven't gone to waste here. Don't plug your ears too hard; you'll go deaf.

[Empress Cheesatine]

You really are a child. :p That was Höß' affidavit, not his testimony, and we only know that because he says so in his memoirs, which confirm everything he said at Nuremberg anyway. :p But I can see your scholarly standards of "Jew-Bolshevik show trials invalidate every scrap of evidence for the Holocaust!!1" haven't gone to waste here. Don't plug your ears too hard; you'll go deaf.

I dont care if his confession was spoken, written, or blown out of a bong. He was tortured like the others and it is widely known. You assumed Nuremburg was legit on face value without looking into it. You exposed yourself as ignorant on the topic.

[Donny the Punk]

I dont care if his confession was spoken, written, or blown out of a bong. He was tortured like the others and it is widely known. You assumed Nuremburg was legit on face value without looking into it. You exposed yourself as ignorant on the topic.
ROFL :rofl:

[Empress Cheesatine]

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c176/lagergeld/buchenwald.jpg
Nuremburg Military Tribunal, Vol. XXXII, p. 271

The infamous Shrunken Heads and other goodies on display at Buchenwald.

Below, human skin paint canvasses in the trial of Ilse Koch, the "Bitch of Buchenwald":

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c176/lagergeld/tattooedskin.jpg

None of these were true, according to major holocaust historian Deborah Lipstadt, in her book Denying the Holocaust.

Bogus evidence, ex-post facto laws (http://www.spectacle.org/596/nurem.html), confessions by torture (http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p167_Weberb.html)? Sounds like a bullshit trial to me. So why is it being sourced?

[Donny the Punk]

Lipstadt's about as "major" a Holocaust historian as you are. As the trials of Ilse Koch and Rudolf Höß were not only completely separate but actually conducted by totally different authorities, I have no idea what you've got your panties in a knot about.

Höß' testimony is corroborated by dozens of other accounts, most notably HIS OWN in his memoirs, which you've obviously not read. Nor have you bothered to consider any of the other evidence which was presented in that thread, plugging your ears and stomping your feet like a petulant boy. When I've been exclusively studying history at university for the last four years, with an especial focus on the Third Reich, and you "know little of the Third Reich and less of Hitler's policymaking," it's derisively amusing to see you proclaim anyone else as ignorant. Hopefully you'll see this when you move out of your mom's basement and graduate from high school.

[Empress Cheesatine]

Lipstadt's about as "major" a Holocaust historian as you are. As the trials of Ilse Koch and Rudolf Höß were not only completely separate but actually conducted by totally different authorities, I have no idea what you've got your panties in a knot about.

Höß' testimony is corroborated by dozens of other accounts, most notably HIS OWN in his memoirs, which you've obviously not read. Nor have you bothered to consider any of the other evidence which was presented in that thread, plugging your ears and stomping your feet like a petulant boy. When I've been exclusively studying history at university for the last four years, with an especial focus on the Third Reich, and you "know little of the Third Reich and less of Hitler's policymaking," it's derisively amusing to see you proclaim anyone else as ignorant. Hopefully you'll see this when you move out of your mom's basement and graduate from high school.

In all that great study youve done you never learned of the ex post facto laws, the planted evidence (also refer to Katyn) and confessions by torture? Your answers to these points are what? Calling me names from your high chair? That's it? :hump:

[Donny the Punk]

In all that great study youve done you never learned of the ex post facto laws, the planted evidence (also refer to Katyn) and confessions by torture? Your answers to these points are what? Calling me names from your high chair? That's it? :hump:
My answer was to have you read the thread to which you were linked and to consider the assembled evidence without acting like a total wanker. Your present level of emotional maturity doesn't seem to allow for that, however.

[Empress Cheesatine]

Read and consider something I debunked over 2 years ago as a proven sham trial? Why waste my time? Your mainstream history study means shit to me. Have a nice day.

[Donny the Punk]

Dan Dare, you might want to put a muzzle on this particular attack dog - he's making you look bad. :p

[Dan Dare]

Sorry not quite catching your drift, old boy.

Care to spell it out?

[Sulla the Dictator]

Read and consider something I debunked over 2 years ago as a proven sham trial? Why waste my time?

Umm, who are you again?

[Gleb]

The whole situation looks rather childish, really. A big nasty bully punches a little kid and then when he gets an unexpected punch in return, complains to his mom. Stop complaining already, the bully well deserved it, he should be thankful a little kid didn't finish him off with a knife he always carries with him. :D

[Pablo Escobar]

The whole situation looks rather childish, really. A big nasty bully punches a little kid and then when he gets an unexpected punch in return, complains to his mom. Stop complaining already, the bully well deserved it, he should be thankful a little kid didn't finish him off with a knife he always carries with him. :D

True, but when there's a discussion about Germany, all reason and integrity
go out the window.

[Kodos]

Well to be fair to the Germans the Prussian population who got it worst from the Russians were never on the whole very supportive of the nazis who base of strong support( for the whole ideology) was in the South.

[Pablo Escobar]

Well to be fair to the Germans the Prussian population who got it worst from the Russians were never on the whole very supportive of the nazis who base of strong support( for the whole ideology) was in the South.

Shit happens in war.

For example. During 1999. NATO bombarded Serbian cities.
The excuse was that it's a war against Slobodan Milosevic.

The problem is that cities never supported Milosevic's regime,
it was mostly the rural areas. The other problem is that Milosevic fixed the elections, and that was the only reason why he was in power.
The people even protested it from 1996-1997.