What do you think?

[VAMPIR]

Slavic nations ARE part of western civilization?
YES or NO?

[Zander]

Serbia isn't............

[VAMPIR]

Serbia isn't............
Why not? Are you Croatian? I gues you are. If you aren't, tell me why do you think Serbia isn't.

[Pablo Escobar]

Ma, koga boli kurac.

[VAMPIR]

Ma, koga boli kurac.
Jebo te! Pitam jer me zanima sta zapadnjaci misle. Malo se bavim socioloskim istrazivanjma, pa eto, i net da probam.
Vrlo me zanima!

[Zander]

Why not? Are you Croatian? I gues you are. If you aren't, tell me why do you think Serbia isn't.

Have you ever been there ? if so you'll understand why, no need to debate it.

[VAMPIR]

Have you ever been there ? if so you'll understand why, no need to debate it.
Yes, I have been there for many times! You didn't tell me are you Croatian? Tell me, why do you think that way about Serbs?

[Pablo Escobar]

Jebo te! Pitam jer me zanima sta zapadnjaci misle. Malo se bavim socioloskim istrazivanjma, pa eto, i net da probam.
Vrlo me zanima!

Pa, nisu ti ovde ljudi nikakav 'uzorak' zapadnjaka.
Pitanje je da li većina ovde smatra npr. Španiju i Francusku za deo zapadne civilizacije.

Baziraju svoje mišljenje na veoma slabom poznavanju istorije i geografije,
a istovremeno do retardiranosti idolizuju neke istorijske figure, ideologije i religije,
tako da na kraju dobiješ žestoko iskrivljeno mišljenje.

Pitanje je koliko su vredni odgovori ljudi koji npr. misle da je Balkan deo Severne Afrike, da ovde nema snega, da ovim teritorijama vladaju 'gospodari rata', da su Slovenski jezici niže vrednosti jer zaboga imaju isuviše suglasnika.
itd.

Elem, probaj, pitaj ih... ali ne nerviraj se kada dobiješ nedotupavne odgovore
ljudi koji svaku svoju misao baziraju na jednačini "drugačije = inferiorno".

[VAMPIR]

I to je lijepo saznati. Veliko hvala za (ocigledno :) ) brata Srbina!

[Pablo Escobar]

Actually, ja sebe smatram Crnogorskim Srbinom :p :D

[VAMPIR]

Actually, ja sebe smatram Crnogorskim Srbinom :p :D
A ja sebe Crnogorcem. Ali svaki Srbin moj je brat. Time si mi blizi :), ma kako se izjasnjavao. Zivis u USA?

[Pablo Escobar]

Ne, u Srbiji.

U bilo kom slučaju, Crna Gora je mesto odakle je moja porodica potekla. Drago mi je što smatraš Srbe svojom braćom.

Koje si pleme? :)

[VAMPIR]

Poticem iz Gornje morace, Uskoci. Ali ne volim podjele na plemena u CG. Volim tradiciju, ali mi moramo biti spremni na izazove koje nosi 21-vi vijek.
A kako bih drugacije mogao da gledam na Srbe?!!! Pa nisam ja fasista, znam da smo samo zahvaljujuci istorijskoj odvojenosti postali razliciti narodi, sa vrlo malo razlika.

[Pablo Escobar]

Poticem iz Gornje morace, Uskoci.

Hahaha... isto kao moja baba. Hercegovac, znači :p

Ali ne volim podjele na plemena u CG. Volim tradiciju, ali mi moramo biti spremni na izazove koje nosi 21-vi vijek.

Škotima ništa ne fali što i dan danas znaju kom klanu pripadaju.


A kako bih drugacije mogao da gledam na Srbe?!!! Pa nisam ja fasista, znam da smo samo zahvaljujuci istorijskoj odvojenosti postali razliciti narodi, sa vrlo malo razlika.

Ja bih rekao da su te razlike ogromne, ali da to opet nije
razlog da se nazivamo totalno separatnim narodima. :)

Gledaj npr. Nemce i Austrijance. Deli ih još veća razlika u dijalektu,
dele ih državne granice već 1000 godina. Deli ih čak i religija ( Austrija je mahom Katolička država, dok su Nemci velikim delom protestanti ),
pa opet kapiraju da su deo istog naroda.

[Fade the Butcher]

Some are. Some are not. I would group Croatia, Slovenia, Hungary, Poland, Czech Republic, and Slovakia with the West.

[Jimbo Gomez]

Only Catholic and Protestant nations (by origin) could possibly be Western. So Croatia is Western, Serbia isn't.

[Pablo Escobar]

I rest my case.

[brigadier Biggles]

i dont understand this can someone tell me why being founded on christianity makes somewhere "western" even if its not in western europe ?

oh right western civilisation not western europe nm..

[Gleb]

Russia isn't for sure.

But then, Russia is not in the same sandbox with other Slavic nations either, although I always considered Serbs spiritually and culturally close.

[Gleb]

Hungary

Hungary isn't Slavic, though.

[The Serb]

Only Catholic and Protestant nations (by origin) could possibly be Western. So Croatia is Western, Serbia isn't.

So going by that logic I take it you consider the vast mongrelized Catholic cesspool of South America 'Western' and closer to you than the cradle of European civilization Hellas and all white Aryan Orthodox Christian Slavic nations. Interesting indeed.

[Watzy]

So going by that logic I take it you consider the vast mongrelized Catholic cesspool of South America 'Western' and closer to you

Catholic Argentines (Spaniards+Italians+Germans+Croatians) look a lot more esthetically pleasing than Serbs, and their economy is in rank of post-Communist, post-Balkan Croatia.

the cradle of European civilization Hellas

The Orthodox post-Ottoman countries such as Serbia and Greece are more distant to Helenic/classical civilization in respect to the countries of the West in any case - and especially those Catholic countries built upon the soil of the Western Roman Empire and strongly influenced by Italian Renascence - such as Croatia. ;)

and all white Aryan Orthodox Christian Slavic nations

It's quite obvious those countries should be closer to you. :)

[Gleb]

Catholic Argentines (Spaniards+Italians+Germans+Croatians) look a lot more esthetically pleasing than Serbs, and their economy is in rank of post-Communist, post-Balkan Croatia.


What the fuck is that about? What does current state of economy has to do with anything? Who are you to decide who is more aesthetically pleasing?


The Orthodox post-Ottoman countries such as Serbia and Greece are more distant to Helenic/classical civilization in respect to the countries of the West in any case - and especially those Catholic countries built upon the soil of the Western Roman Empire and strongly influenced by Italian Renascence - such as Croatia. ;)


Pff, Croatia, my ass. Are you being entirely serious?

[Fade the Butcher]

So going by that logic I take it you consider the vast mongrelized Catholic cesspool of South America 'Western' and closer to you than the cradle of European civilization Hellas and all white Aryan Orthodox Christian Slavic nations. Interesting indeed.

Are you suggesting that Russia is a Western nation? Serbia? Greece? I have always considered the Balkans to be part of the Middle East. Albania and Bosnia obviously fall into this category.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

What the fuck is that about? What does current state of economy has to do with anything? Who are you to decide who is more aesthetically pleasing?



Pff, Croatia, my ass. Are you being entirely serious?


Off course he is. The Renaissance was a hit in Croatia. You didn't know that?

[Gleb]

Off course he is. The Renaissance was a hit in Croatia. You didn't know that?

He is making it look like Croatia is the cradle of civilization, while it is no more than a pimple on the face of Europe. There is simply no comparison between Croatia and Greece that gave us modern civilization.

Are all Croats that arrogant?

[Gleb]

I have always considered the Balkans to be part of the Middle East.

Well, you considered Hungary to be a Slavic country, too, so it speaks more about your knowledge of geography than anything else.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

He is making it look like Croatia is the cradle of civilization, while it is no more than a pimple on the face of Europe. There is simply no comparison between Croatia and Greece that gave us modern civilization.

Are all Croats that arrogant?

No man not arrogant, maybe you just mistook the language of the post.

Cheers

[Banat]

Some are. Some are not. I would group Croatia, Slovenia, Hungary, Poland, Czech Republic, and Slovakia with the West.

Only Catholic and Protestant nations (by origin) could possibly be Western. So Croatia is Western, Serbia isn't.

You insensitive bastards... http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/4153/cry000001wb.gif

http://www.thephora.net/forum/images/icons/icon3.gif But wait! Serbia originally had a Roman-Catholic character, does that count as 'Catholic by origin'?

[Slavic Enforcer]

There is simply no comparison between Croatia and Greece that gave us modern civilization.

That was once. The Mongols had the biggest empire in history, so what?
Where are they now?

By the way, I have nothing against Greeks (at least not the average Greek).

Are all Croats that arrogant?

No, but it seems you are also not really 'moderate'.

[Banat]

I have always considered the Balkans to be part of the Middle East. Albania and Bosnia obviously fall into this category.

Jokes aside, as early as in 13th century St Sava said the following about East-West position of Serbia, and his judgement is still true, I believe:

"The East has always thought that we were the West, and the West has always thought that we were the East. Some among us, having misunderstood our position in this clash of interests, shout: "We are neither!", while the others claim that we are exclusively only one, and not the other. And I tell you, Iriney: we the Serbs are by fate predestined to be the East in the West, and the West in the East, and to recognise only the Heavenly Jerusalem above us, and on the Earth - no one."

[OVERWATCH]

Slavic nations ARE part of western civilization?
YES or NO?

I define Western Civilisation as essentially European and Christian in character, as contrasted with Eastern Civilisation i.e. Asia, Middle-eastern Civilisation i.e. Asia Minor, or North African civilisation.

So the answer would be 'yes'.

[Anarch]

Slavic nations ARE part of western civilization?
YES or NO?

Catholic Slavic nations are part of the West. Orthodox Slavic nations are something else.

[Jimbo Gomez]

Catholic Slavic nations are part of the West. Orthodox Slavic nations are something else.

I agree with this man.

You ask me about Greece there: present day Greece can hardly be compared with its ancestors three millenia ago. Those people were among the founders of Europe yes, but today's orthodox goatherds have little that make them western. :)

[Pablo Escobar]

I agree with this man.

You ask me about Greece there: present day Greece can hardly be compared with its ancestors three millenia ago. Those people were among the founders of Europe yes, but today's orthodox goatherds have little that make them western. :)

Most of the people in ancient Greece were also ordinary people,
goatherders etc.

In fact, I bet that today's Greece has more writers, architects, philosophers and artists than ancient Greece had. The only reason it's not so superior to others is that it foolishly taught civilization to the northwestern cavemen.

Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians etc. are people who adopted christianity
long before the religious sect in Rome decided to separate itself from the original church. Long before any north-European cavemen were forced to accept christianity, long before they decided to become protestants.

As for the "similarity" of Balkans to Middle East, I can only guess that this is
the northwestern caveman stupidity shining through.

The dominant languages in the Balkans are Indo-European,
just like in Europe. In the Middle-East, the dominant languages are Semitic.

The average height in the Balkans is even higher than in Europe,
and Europeans are on average much taller than Middle-Easterners.

The average/dominant pigmentations, birth-rates, trends religions etc.
everything is more akin to other European countries than the Middle East.

In fact, before our forefathers discovered the worthless and savage areas to the northwest, the only area actually called EUROPE was up to the Danube river ( look it up on a map ).

Well, thanks for listening. Teaching basics to ignorants is only that much fun.

[Jimbo Gomez]

Yes awar, thank you for stating the obvious. The fact is, as you well know, that in any given nation at any given time at least 99,9% of the people are of little to no meaning. The meaningless nations make that an even 100%, the great nations offer us 0,1% geniuses.

The sad part is, at least since the fall of the Byzantine Empire, Greece has been one of those 100% nations.

About the Middle East thing, I assume that part is a reply to Fade.

About the conversion to Christianity, which indeed happened later in my part of the continent than in yours: it's a safe bet to say we more than made up for our belated entry into the civilized world. I'll let history account for that, my serbian friend.

[Boleslaw]

Some are. Some are not. I would group Croatia, Slovenia, Hungary, Poland, Czech Republic, and Slovakia with the West.

1. Hungary is not Slavic but Maygar.

2. I would also add Western Ukrainians aka "Ruthenians" as part of the West as well.

[Jimbo Gomez]

The Catholic part? See my definition pr00n. ;)

[Kodos]

I define Western Civilisation as essentially European and Christian in character, as contrasted with Eastern Civilisation i.e. Asia, Middle-eastern Civilisation i.e. Asia Minor, or North African civilisation.

So the answer would be 'yes'.

I agree and I include Russia by that definition...

[Boleslaw]

Catholic Slavic nations are part of the West. Orthodox Slavic nations are something else.

Well Belarus and Eastern Ukraine, although Orthodox, could be considered borderlands between East and West, and were open to both Latin and Byzantine influences far much more than Russia was.

Anyways, the Russian thinker Nikolai Berdyaev offered some interesting insight into "East" and "West":


http://www.berdyaev.com/berdiaev/berd_lib/1930_353.html

When we use the terms "East" and "West", we are operating with very abstract and conditional concepts. There exist very varied Easts and very varied Wests. The more I get into the life of the West, the more I am convinced, that no sort of a single Western culture exists, it instead was contrived by the Russian Slavophils and Westernisers for clarifying their points of opposition. At the centre of Western Europe is first of all France and Germany. But between the French and the Latin culture generally in contrast to the German culture there exists an abyss quite greater, than exists between the German culture and the Russian culture or that of India, though here even the differences are colossal. Yet it would be groundless for the French to say, that the German culture, in having created great philosophy, mysticism and music, is on account of its not having inherited the Graeco-Roman Mediterranean culture, or that it is not in direct continuance from it. The Anglo-Saxon world likewise is an altogether unique world. And the American civilisation is of far greater difference from the civilisation of the French, than the French civilisation is from the Russian. The Russian civilisation has connections with the Greek, which America possesses not at all. One can speak only about a singular Western civilisation only if there be regarded abstractly the elements of science, technology, democracy, etc. In spirit, however, the differences are enormous, The same also mustneeds be said about the East. The Russian, the Orthodox Christian East, the Islamic East, the Indian East, the Chinese East -- all these are totally different worlds. There is very little affinity between Russia and India. Hinduism does not conceive of history, does not know the person, denies the Incarnation. Christian Russia is similar to ancient Israel in its orientation to the meaning of history and the experiencing of it, as a tragedy, it believes in the Divine incarnation, it awaits the second Coming, and it tormentedly experiences the problem of the human person and its fate.

So using Berdyaev's logic, if the Orthodox Slavs do belong to "the West", they belong to a very different "West" than say France or Germany.

[Pablo Escobar]

Yes awar, thank you for stating the obvious.

It obviously wasn't obvious to you :p


The fact is, as you well know, that in any given nation at any given time at least 99,9% of the people are of little to no meaning. The meaningless nations make that an even 100%, the great nations offer us 0,1% geniuses.

Actually, there's a world of difference between being a genius
and being recognized as one.

I bet even your neck of the woods had it's share of geniuses
back in the times before civilization saw your people. The problem
is they were too busy with fighting and hunting to produce anything lasting.

Get it?

Similar things also happen now.
Up until 15 years ago, Serbia had a decent living standard and
a decent bunch of scientists working here. Nowadays, exceptional individuals either emigrate or get jobs which are paid here and which have nothing to do with impressing internet-nerds from the west.

[Boleslaw]

The Catholic part? See my definition pr00n. ;)

Western Ukraine is predominately Catholic(at least historically), but Byzantine Catholic not Roman Catholic. But the intellectual and cultural influences on Western Ukraine were very often from the West.

Ukraine as a whole is a borderland between East and West, in fact that's even how Ukraine got its name.

[Jimbo Gomez]

Sigh. Did you see me posting anywhere that the ancient greeks were all lining up with Plato to be enlightened? No, you didn't, because I am a reasonable man and reasonable men don't believe nonsensical things. Of course most of them were simple illiterate commoners, that should go without saying to anyony with at least half a brain.

I know about the situation of your country. Damn, it must really suck to have a GDP lower than that of albania, or did you surpass them lately?

[brigadier Biggles]

damn all you catholic supremacists (you dad especially !) are mad, good job england was originally catholic or it wouldnt be part of western civilisation a ! :cool: .

[Watzy]

Yes, I have been there for many times! You didn't tell me are you Croatian? Tell me, why do you think that way about Serbs?

No, Serbia is NOT a part of the Western civilization, and one does not have to be a Croat not to notice this. :rolleyes:

It's not only about how the other nations perceive a nation, it's also about how a nation perceive it self. How brutish, unsophisticated and intolerant can one get by refusing to acknowledge fundamental cultural differences between Catholic and Orthodox societies...

Take the architecture as the most illustrative example.

Cathedral of St. Peter and St. Paul, Zagreb
http://friderich.net/Photos/Zagreb/Zagreb, cathedral.JPG

Temple of Sava, Belgrade
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/33/SofiaCathedral.jpg

These differences in sacral architecture aren't coincidence, they tell us a lot about how the Croats and Serbs perceive their own cultural orientation. And one must have to be completely blind to admit it's the same perception.

[Fade the Butcher]

1. Hungary is not Slavic but Maygar.

Who inhabited the area before the Maygars?

[Fade the Butcher]

In fact, before our forefathers discovered the worthless and savage areas to the northwest, the only area actually called EUROPE was up to the Danube river ( look it up on a map ).

Why are you comparing yourself to the Ancient Greeks? The Slavs didn't settle in the area until the Dark Ages. The Greeks were calling themselves the Romans by that time.

Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians etc. are people who adopted christianity
long before the religious sect in Rome decided to separate itself from the original church.

You seem to have forgotten that Orthodox Christians eradicated paganism and closed down Plato's Academy in their war against the philosophers.

[Fade the Butcher]

2. I would also add Western Ukrainians aka "Ruthenians" as part of the West as well.

There are Catholic parts of Romania too, right?

[vojvoda]

Serbia isn't............

Who cares. I wouldn't want Serbia to be part of a degenerate and declining "western" civilzation anyway.

[Watzy]

damn all you catholic supremacists (you dad especially !) are mad, good job england was originally catholic or it wouldnt be part of western civilisation a ! :cool: .

Protestantism was built upon Catholic funds, even if opposed to Catholicism by doctrine. Catholic Croatians also had protestant pioneers, but Catholicism prevailed.

Even the first Croatian version of the Bible was made by Protestant Croats Stephen Istranin and Anton Dalmatin in the sixteenth century: http://www.traditionalcatholic.net/Scripture/Encyclopedia/Versions.html

Some of the Protestant Croatians:

A Croatian Lutheran reformer Matija Vlačić Ilirik (Matthias Flacius Illyricus):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/93/Matthiasflacius.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthias_Flacius

Juraj "the Elder" Zrinski (1549-1603)
Known to be a Protestant, he opened up the first printing-press in North Croatia.

http://worldroots.com/brigitte/royal/bio/jurajzrinskibio.html

On the other hand, has anyone ever heard about Protestant Serbs in the past?:rolleyes:

[vojvoda]

There are Catholic parts of Romania too, right?

They speak a Romance language so they must be part of the west :p

[Fade the Butcher]

I think we should clarify what we mean by Western civilization.

"In 400 AD western Europe was merely a geographic expression. Roman civilization was centered on the Mediterranean, and France, England, and the Rhine valley were mere adjuncts of the Mediterranean world. In 800 Europe signified a new civilization that was coextensive with the area of Latin Christianity and created by the confluence of Germanic traditions and Latin-Christian culture. Compared to Byzantium and Islam, Europe was still poor and backward, but it had developed particular ideas and institutions of its own, had found leadership within its own ranks, and had become conscious of its own distinct existence and destiny.

The first Europe included France, England, western Germany, Ireland, central and northern Italy, and the mountain regions of northern Spain. The vital centers of civilization were not on the Mediterranean coast, but in the river valleys of northern France and the Rhineland. The culture of the first Europe was unified by the universal language of churchmen, kings, and the aristocracy -- Latin."

Norman Cantor, Civilization of the Middle Ages

http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~eshaw/pix/charlemagne_map.jpg

The West was to expand in later centuries as peripheral areas were brought into the orbit of the core culture: Iceland, Scandinavia, Spain, Portugal, Sicily and Southern Italy, Poland, the Baltic states, Hungary, Czechia, Slovakia and so on. The expansion of the West continued into the modern age as Western colonies were planted in the Americas, Africa, and Australia.

[Fade the Butcher]

Is Mexico a Western nation? I don't think so. It's more of a quasi-Western nation; the confluence of Western and indigenous Amerindian cultures. The same can be said of Peru. Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, and Southern Brazil are different. They were settled by people of European stock who have retained their customs. The case of India is similar. India is also a quasi-Western nation.

[Pablo Escobar]

Who cares. I wouldn't want Serbia to be part of a degenerate and declining "western" civilzation anyway.

Exactly. In the Serbian unofficial dictionary:
western = effeminate, perfidious weenies,
eastern = filthy asiatics.

Fuck both.

[vojvoda]

I think we should clarify what we mean by Western civilization....


Yeah, according to Norman Cantor but afaik children in school are still taught that Greece is the cradle of Western civilization.

[Pablo Escobar]

Why are you comparing yourself to the Ancient Greeks? The Slavs didn't settle in the area until the Dark Ages. The Greeks were calling themselves the Romans by that time.

My paternal origin is Balkanoid. Nowhere else but here.


You seem to have forgotten that Orthodox Christians eradicated paganism and closed down Plato's Academy in their war against the philosophers.

So what? I'm agnostic, and I'm not a fan of the church.

The negative effects of Christianity can be seen in this thread,
what with all the dividing of Europeans into conflicting religious groups.

[Jimbo Gomez]

Exactly. In the Serbian unofficial dictionary:
western = effeminate, perfidious weenies,
eastern = filthy asiatics.

Fuck both.

Those weenies bombed your capitol to smithereens and you thanked them for it by extraditing your former president to show your good will and perhaps receive a few breadcrumbs. :)

[vojvoda]

Those weenies bombed your capitol to smithereens and you thanked them for it by extraditing your former president to show your good will and perhaps receive a few breadcrumbs. :)

Yes, they are weenies. Try fighting a ground war next time.

[Pablo Escobar]

Yes, they are weenies. Try fighting a ground war next time.

Yep. That's what happens when Jews command western pussies.

[Jimbo Gomez]

Yes, they are weenies. Try fighting a ground war next time.

Why? Only niggers would be dumb enough to leave their technical edge unused just to prove their bravado to the people they plan to stomp into the ground.

[Pablo Escobar]

Why? Only niggers would be dumb enough to leave their technical edge unused just to prove their bravado to the people they plan to stomp into the ground.

Only westerners would be dumb enough to try to stomp
a European people, to fulfill Jewish goals AND create THREE Islamic states within Europe.

[Petr]

Those weenies bombed your capitol to smithereens and you thanked them for it by extraditing your former president to show your good will and perhaps receive a few breadcrumbs. :)
Now this is just an asshole attitude, bragging about the capability of NWO to bully small nations in the line. Why not brag about EU institutions while you're at it?

I despise shallow concepts of "West" that consider India even a "quasi-Western" nation and a modern Greece not.


Petr

[Slavic Enforcer]

Always interesting to see how people really think.

Keep it up, folks.

[Watzy]

I despise shallow concepts of "West" that consider India even a "quasi-Western" nation and a modern Greece not.

Being a member of EU and NATO Greece is a quasi-Western nation also, and the most of the Serbs (liberal and radical) are eager to became a quasi-western nation as well.

[brigadier Biggles]

i think this quote is quite appropriate :D.

"the West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do." Samuel P. Huntington

[Pablo Escobar]

btw. here's a shot from the window of my appartment.
How very middle-eastern

http://img450.imageshack.us/img450/2572/p30900083iv.jpg

[Gleb]

Who inhabited the area before the Maygars?

Its Magyars, not Maygars. Hungary is an Ugro-Finnic nation and always has been. Just because there had been some Slavic tribes present before the arrival of Magyars doesn't make Hungary Slavic.

I'm pretty sure Vaszczoly (something tells me this is not the right spelling LOL) would be offended by such classification.

[Pablo Escobar]

I'm pretty sure Vaszczoly (something tells me this is not the right spelling LOL) would be offended by such classification.

Ha ő Magyar , ő akarat kap őrült :D

[Watzy]

btw. here's a shot from the window of my appartment.
How very middle-eastern

http://img450.imageshack.us/img450/2572/p30900083iv.jpg

How old are these buildings? 70-80 years or so? You can find similar in Hong Kong. :rolleyes:

[Gleb]

Well Belarus and Eastern Ukraine, although Orthodox, could be considered borderlands between East and West

Are you saying that Belarussians are closer to English than to Russians?

[Pablo Escobar]

@Zvaci: Why don't you show us a pic shot from your window?

Are you saying that Belarussians are closer to English than to Russians?

Actually, he'd say just about anything to be 'accepted' into 'the west'.
As if such a thing really exists, and as if people actually gave a shit about it in reality.

[The Serb]

Now this is just an asshole attitude, bragging about the capability of NWO to bully small nations in the line. Why not brag about EU institutions while you're at it?

I despise shallow concepts of "West" that consider India even a "quasi-Western" nation and a modern Greece not.


Petr


But what else is to be expected from a narrow minded reactionary and neocon supporter.

As for the overall debate of what constitutes West and East it is nothing more than a cleverly employed divisive tactic especially in this day and age when the entire continent is being swamped by non whites, an irrelevant and stale left over from old hostile Vatican policy towards Slavic peoples of Orthodox faith.

From a strictly racialist point of view subjective narrow catholic definition of 'western' is totally meaningless as the term in itself is a fairly recent political construct and extremely counter productive in our fight for European racial preservation.
The Vatican most certainly does NOT decide who is or isnt European. They should stick to their 'work' in Africa, Asia, Latin America and promoting of a one world multi racial global community instead of interfering in the internal affairs of homogenous white Orthodox Christian European nations where they have done more than enough damage over the centuries.

[Gleb]

Actually, he'd say just about anything to be 'accepted' into 'the west'.
As if such a thing really exists, and as if people actually gave a shit about it in reality.

I agree, the Berdyaev's quote from his post sums it up very well.

[The Serb]

A ja sebe Crnogorcem. Ali svaki Srbin moj je brat.

Pozdrav brate! kao sto se kaze svaki Crnogorac je Srbin al svaki Srbin nije Crnogorac. :)

[Gleb]

View from the roof of my house in Ulyanovsk, Russia.


(Volga on the background)
http://img346.imageshack.us/img346/523/p1100309small5ua6vf.jpg

Lutheran church built by German POWs after WWII in the center of the city for their own needs. That terrible tyranic Soviet regime ;)

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/2756/0016tm3sz.jpg

[Pablo Escobar]

My god! Russia and Serbia look so terribly 'eastern' while
Amsterdam here looks so 'western'.

http://www.hva.nl/pix/sfeer_amsterdam.jpg

[Watzy]

@Zvaci: Why don't you show us a pic shot from your window?

I don't have a picture, but I can see the Cathedral from my balcony. It's a 19 century cathedral/basilica built by Bishop J.J. Strossmayer. Next to the Cathedral is 18. century bishops court and the whole complex is surrounded by the wall dating since the feudal period.

http://www.crochess.com/turniri/djakovo/djakovo.jpg

The Cathedral:
http://www.djakovo.hr/razglednice_grada/sl02.jpg
http://www.djakovo.hr/razglednice_grada/sl042.JPG

Bishop's court in Đakovo, 18. Century - authentic Central European baroques (notice the Serbian shrapnels on it)
http://www.djakovo.hr/razglednice_grada/sl06.jpg

The wall
http://www.djakovo.hr/razglednice_grada/sl08.jpg

The entire complex (aerial)
http://www.djakovo.hr/razglednice_grada/sl045.jpg

[Pablo Escobar]

Why pick & choose? ... make a photo from your window, like I did.

Are you embarassed by something outside your window?

[Watzy]

Why pick & choose? ... make a photo from your window, like I did.

Are you embarassed by something outside your window?
Coming up...

[Pablo Escobar]

meanwhile, here's a photo of a cathedral in Serbia,
one of the cities which were bombed the most:

http://www.luka-manca.net/images/dnevnik/02/04.jpg

[Watzy]

meanwhile, here's a photo of a cathedral in Serbia,
one of the cities which were bombed the most:

http://www.luka-manca.net/images/dnevnik/02/04.jpg

This is a Catholic Cathedral from Novi Sad, the people who built it and attended it weren't Serbs but Germans, Hungarians or Croats.

"In 1820 Novi Sad had 20,000 inhabitants, of whom about 2/3 were Serbs. According to the 1843 data, Novi Sad had 17,332 inhabitants, of whom 9,675 were Orthodox Christians, 5,724 Catholics, 1,032 Protestants, 727 Jews, and 30 adherents of the Armenian church. The largest ethnic group in the city were Serbs, and the second largest were Germans."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novi_Sad

:rolleyes:

[Fade the Butcher]

Only westerners would be dumb enough to try to stomp a European people, to fulfill Jewish goals AND create THREE Islamic states within Europe.

I don't consider Serbia a Western nation. Do the Serbs consider themselves Western? The Greeks? The Russians certainly don't. Serbia has traditionally been within the cultural orbit of Byzantium/Istanbul. Then again, Spain and Sicily were also part of the Islamic world for many centuries. Serbia is a quasi-Western nation today. It will probably become more Western in the future as it is drawn in the EU. Also, I forgot to mention earlier that I once wrote a paper as an undergraduate in an international relations class defending the Serbs from NATO aggression. IMO Albania and Bosnia shouldn't exist as independent states.

[Jim West]

A group of Slavic children. They look pretty white to me. Are they Western in culture, however? Let's just say they're at the low end of the Western Culture Bell Curve - definitely registering on it, but still out on the fringe, steeped in ancient European traditions and old rituals that countries like the UK, France, and Germany have long since left behind. But these people are US, our kindred, and our racial sons and daughters.

http://www.unesco.ru/files/media/images/gallery/c/h/children.jpg

[Pablo Escobar]

A group of Slavic children. They look pretty white to me. Are they Western in culture, however? Let's just say they're at the low end of the Western Culture Bell Curve - definitely registering on it, but still out on the fringe, steeped in ancient European traditions and old rituals that countries like the UK, France, and Germany have long since left behind.

LOL, what are those ancient traditions the Slavic people can't let go? :rofl:

[Slavic Enforcer]

The Yugoslavian Communism (who wasn't bad at all) didn't destroy our Slavic traditions.

The influence of the degenerated, capitalistic West did destroy more in 10 years than Communism in 45.

[Petr]

The Vatican most certainly does NOT decide who is or isnt European. They should stick to their 'work' in Africa, Asia, Latin America and promoting of a one world multi racial global community instead of interfering in the internal affairs of homogenous white Orthodox Christian European nations where they have done more than enough damage over the centuries.
It really seems to me that Eastern Orthodox Christianity is a whole lot more friendlier environment for local autonomy (in spiritual, political and racial-national matters) than Roman Catholicism with its centralization and pretensions of authority over the whole universe.

Is my perception correct?


Petr

[Pablo Escobar]

It really seems to me that Eastern Orthodox Christianity is a whole lot more friendlier environment for local autonomy (in spiritual, political and racial-national matters) than Roman Catholicism with its centralization and pretensions of authority over the whole universe.

Is my perception correct?


Petr

It 'concerns' itself too much with the ethnic identity of the people.
The Orthodox church made a lot of 'mess' in the Balkans, and is still making a mess, dividing peoples whose best interest would be to stick together.

[Banat]

I don't consider Serbia a Western nation. Do the Serbs consider themselves Western?

I think that my previous post in this thread explains it pretty much. Speaking for myself, I don't consider it as part of the West, but on the other hand consider the West as much, much closer in every aspect than the mentioned Middle East, with which I don't see absolutely nothing in common.

Serbia has traditionally been within the cultural orbit of Byzantium/Istanbul.

A small correction: Byzantium and Constantinople/Carigrad yes, but Istanbul - no. As a matter of fact, modern Serbia, which is (unfortunately) a new creation and not a continuation of the Medieval one, is built by Vienna students, Vojvodina Serbs and under heavy Austrian-Hungarian influence, with a turning point in early 20th century when the influence of Paris and France replaced the German influence. Therefore, I see Serbia as part of Orthodox Balkans with Greece and Bulgaria, including Romania and, if possible, Hungary as well.

Serbia is a quasi-Western nation today.

Thanks to those among us who truly believe and feel "Western", and try to shape Serbia in that way, and to whom I oppose. But I am not anti-Western, mind you, I am only for a more selective and calm approach to the acceptance of Western ways, and more for relying on the ways of our own, and on our own culture.

Also, I forgot to mention earlier that I once wrote a paper as an undergraduate in an international relations class defending the Serbs from NATO aggression.

Well, of course. :) I presume it to be the attitude of all the other "Westerners" here in this place, and that's why I didn't interfere in a somewhat silly quarrel that had started about "who bombed who".

[Watzy]

Speaking for myself, I don't consider it as part of the West

Central Europe is traditionally a part of the West. And you do consider Serbs to be Central European on the account they plundered Habsburg lands of Hungaria and Croatia. By the same principle the Turks are considering them selves European. :rolleyes:

I see Serbia as part of Orthodox Balkans with Greece and Bulgaria, including Romania and, if possible, Hungary as well.

Hungary a part of the Orthodox Balkans?!?!?! :rofl: And how can this be since Hungary is an unpolluted Catholic country of the West?

[Banat]

It really seems to me that Eastern Orthodox Christianity is a whole lot more friendlier environment for local autonomy (in spiritual, political and racial-national matters) than Roman Catholicism with its centralization and pretensions of authority over the whole universe.

Is my perception correct?

Well, I think that it is.

But on the other hand, its "pretensions of authority over the whole universe" are still present, because it too calls and considers itself One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

[Bajlozi]

IMO Albania and Bosnia shouldn't exist as independent states.
Albanians (Illyrians) will exist!

[Slavic Enforcer]

Albanians aren't Ilyrians.

Many Serbs and Croats are the descendants of Ilyrians (but very mixed with Slavs and other people), Albanians are not even Europeans.

Sorry but that's how it is and every year more people know it.

[Boza]

Temple of Sava, Belgrade
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/33/SofiaCathedral.jpg



The filename says SofiaCathedral.jpg;)

I don't care if the Balkans are part of some western civilization or not, they still kick ass and that's a fact:hump:

[Pablo Escobar]

Albanians aren't Ilyrians.

Many Serbs and Croats are the descendants of Ilyrians (but very mixed with Slavs and other people), Albanians are not even Europeans.

Sorry but that's how it is and every year more people know it.

I don't think so. From what I've seen on Albanian Y-chromosome and mtDNA,
they are simply locals, although their language definitely isn't any more connected to 'illyrian' than other languages in the region.

The only relation is a few hundred Illyrian words, but about the same ammount can be found in all other Balkan languages ( yes, Slavic too ).

Albanian belongs to the Satem IE group, along with Slavic, Daco-Thracian, Armenian, Baltic and Iranian languages, while old Illyrian was Centum IE, like Greek, Hittite, Latin, Germanic etc.

[Watzy]

The filename says SofiaCathedral.jpg;)

Damn Google

Sava's temple seems to be a bit smaller and equally Byzantine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Temple_of_Saint_Sava.jpg

[Boza]

Albanians aren't Ilyrians.

Many Serbs and Croats are the descendants of Ilyrians (but very mixed with Slavs and other people), Albanians are not even Europeans.

Sorry but that's how it is and every year more people know it.


So what are they? Last time I checked they were living in a country which is located in Europe.

Another thing puzzles me, how many people will know that Albanians aren't European by 2013, seems like there is some statistical data on the average people count realising the truth every year.

[Slavic Enforcer]

So what are they? Last time I checked they were living in a country which is located in Europe.

Sicily is located in Europe too.

You just have to compare an average Albanian (looks and language) with an average European, and then with an everage Chechen, then you'll realize from where the Shkipetari are.
At least I am 100% sure that they are from that region (Caucasus).

[Boza]

Sicily is located in Europe too.

You just have to compare an average Albanian (looks and language) with an average European, and then with an everage Chechen, then you'll realize from where the 'Shkipetari' are.

There's no such thing as an average European, most Albanians aren't physically different from their neighbours - Serbia, Macedonia, Greece. Btw it's Shqiperi and it's not a racial insult as many people think.

And what's wrong with Sicily ... let me guess they're like ..... swarthy:eek:

I'm still not sure if I really care about some of the weird ideas around here, but I'm bored as hell right now, that's for sure :hump: - this smiley is the best

[Slavic Enforcer]

There's no such thing as an average European, most Albanians aren't physically different from their neighbours - Serbia, Macedonia, Greece. Btw it's Shqiperi and it's not a racial insult as many people think.

I didn't think that. But I wonder why many of your people don't allow others to call them so.

[Boza]

I didn't think that. But I wonder why many of your people don't allow others to call them so.

I don't know, I'm not Albanian.

[Ace Rimmer]

while old Illyrian was Centum IE

From where does the knowledge on Illyrian language come from?

If I remember correctly, the language is still enigma , since there is no whatsoever record
, text or inscription written in "Illyrian" language.
The best what is done to define it and draw conclusions is derived from some scattered toponyms ,
for which is believed that they don't have Slavic root.

As for Albanian caucus theory, it's just silly, since Y-chromosome has spoken.

[Slavic Enforcer]

As for Albanian caucus theory, it's just silly, since Y-chromosome has spoken.

I don't buy the Chromosome shit.

I also don't trust Coon, he wrote a lot of crap.

[Ace Rimmer]

I don't buy the Chromosome shit..

Well, since it doesn’t fit your agenda, it is expectable.
But unlike history books, which can be written and re-written, you can not falsify and change your Y-chromosome.

I also don't trust Coon, he wrote a lot of crap.

Some parts are just outdated, it doesn’t necessarily mean it is crap.

[dimitrije]

Sto se tice siptara obavezno procitajte ovaj text i sve ce vam biti jasnije


Арбанаси, њихово порекло и долазак у Србију

Пише:
др Јован И. Деретић

Народ који ми Срби називамо Арбанасима, странци Албанцима, а они сами себе називају Шћипетарима, пореклом је са Кавказа. У античком времену била је позната једна земља на Кавказу под именом Албанија. Тако су је називали странци, али не и њени становници, баш као и данас ову Албанију. Савремену Албанију њени становници називају Шћиперија. Албанија на Каквазу налазила се на источним падинама ове планине, између Каспијског мора и врха Кавказа. Са њене јужне стране почињала је од Апшеронског Полуострва, на коме се налази савремени азербејyански град Баку. Северно од Албаније налазила се земља Алана, северозападно су били Ибери, а западно и јужно од Албаније налазили су се Јермени. Јужни део те античке Албаније припада данас Азербејyану, а северни део Русији. Постојао је један град под именом Албана на обали Каспијског мора између савремених градова Дивичија и Дербента. По имену овог града земља у његовом залеђу добила је име Албанија.

Једино по чему је та стара Албанија била позната јесу велики и опасни пси, такозвани кавкаски овчари. У време када је Александар Велики освајао Азију пред њега је изашао неки владар Албаније и поклонио му једног великог пса. Кавкаска Албанија је била једна врло кршевита и сиромашна земља па као таква није привлачила освајаче.

У осмом веку Арапи су запосели земље око Каспијског мора и иза Каваза. Тамошње домородачко становништво су превели у ислам и водили са собом као помоћне чете у борби са хришћанима. На Средоземном мору вођене су честе борбе између Арапа, као представника ислама и Ромеја, (Византије) као представника хришћанства. Арапи су отели од Ромеја већи део Сицилије и један део јужне Италије, па да би ојачали исламско становништво у овим земљама довели су један део становништва из кавкаске Албаније. Арапско освајање Сицилије трајало је дуго времена од 827. до 878. године. Сицилија је подељена на два дела, исламски део и хришћански део, па отуда и назив Две Сицилије. Хришћани су били потиснути у североисточни део острва. Византија је на томе делу острва држала знатне војне снаге. Византинци су успели да преотму од Арапа један део острва и ту су затекли исламизиране Албанце. У већини случајева вратили су их поново у хришћанство.

Византија је, 1042. године, напала Србију и послала своје две војске кроз Епир, дуж приморја. Тадашњи млади цар Србије, Војислав, сатро је у две битке византијску војску. Овај тежак пораз у рату са Србијом изазвао је нереде у Цариграду. Византијски војни заповедник на Сицилији, по имену Ђорђе звани Манијак, одлучио се на побуну са жељом да узме власт у Цариграду. Укрцао је своју војску на лађе и један део Албанаца које је узео са собом као помоћне чете. Они су са собом водили и своје жене и децу. Са том шареном војском искрцао се у Драчу марта месеца 1043. године. Како је Србија тада била у ратном односу са Византијом, Манијак је рачунао бар на неке српске симпатије. Манијак је довео са собом само један мали део Албанаца, већина њих је остала на Сицилији и у јужној Италији. Сви су временом покрштени и италијанизирани, тако да се код њих данас задржало само сећање на њихово порекло. То сећање на њихово албанско порекло задржало се више код оног дела људи који су се одселили из Италије у Америку, него код оног дела који је остао у Италији.

После искрцавања у Драчу Манијак је кренуо са својом војском у правцу Цариграда. Византијска војска, која је остала верна својој влади, пресрела је Манијака код Дојранског Језера и ту је дошло до велике битке у којој је Манијак погинуо. После његове погибије преостала његова војска се предала. Византинци су примили Манијакове византијске војнике, али не и странце, Албанце. Ови нису могли да се врате натраг нити су имали куд да иду, нашли су се као бродоломници на туђој земљи. Молили су Србе да им дозволе да се населе негде у планинама где би могли да живе од сточарства, пошто су они иначе били по традицији сточари. Срби су им дозволили да се населе у брдовитом пределу око места Рабана који се налазио североисточно од Елбасана, у подножју планине Јабланице. То је био један опустео и готово ненасељен предео. Албанци су гајили стоку и за себе и за Србе и то је било њихово занимање у Србији кроз цео средњи век.

По Рабану ми смо их називали Рабанаси, односно Арбанаси, како их и данас зовемо. Странци су их звали Албанцима и то из два разлога. Зато што су знали њихово порекло из кавкаске Албаније и зато што су са њима дошли први пут у додир на пределу Белиграда испод Томора. Белиград су Латини називали Албом, што је превод његовог српског имена на латински језик. Турци су их називали Арнаутима, што на арапском значи - „они који се нису вратили." Они се стварно нису вратили, остали су у Србији. Сами Арбанаси нису за себе употребљавали ни једно од тих имена, они се називају Шћипетари, асвоју земљу Шћиперија. На њиховом језику реч шћипе или шкипе значи крш, брда или комове. Шћипетар се може превести на српски језик са Брђанин. Аустроугарски писци су, крајем 19. и почетком 20. века, намерно давали погрешно тумачење значења имена Шћиперија, уместо земљом брђана, називали је „земљом орлова„. То је требало да пред светом да Арбанасима неко племенитије порекло њиховог народног имена.

Главни сведок довођења Албанаца у Србију, од стране Ђорђа Манијака, био је савременик тих догађаја, византијски виши државни чиновник и историчар Михаило Аталиота. Он је описао догађаје у Византији од 1034. до 1078. године. У његовом делу Албанци се узгредно помињу од 9 до 20 странице.(1)

[Slavic Enforcer]

Well, since it doesn’t fit your agenda, it is expectable.
But unlike history books, which can be written and re-written, you can not falsify and change your Y-chromosome.


Who made the chromosome study that allegedly proves that they are Europeans?

[Watzy]

Serbs on average look darker than Albanians or any other ex-Yugo folk, so how are the Serbs Europeans and Albanians somehow are not?:confused:

[Slavic Enforcer]

Serbs on average look darker than Albanians or any other ex-Yugo folk, so how are the Serbs Europeans and Albanians somehow are not?:confused:

I would say Spaniards and Portuguese do also look darker on average.
It's the complete looks. They simply remind me of Chechens and such people. And then when they speak..
I won't even talk about their behaviour.

[Pablo Escobar]

Serbs on average look darker than Albanians or any other ex-Yugo folk, so how are the Serbs Europeans and Albanians somehow are not?:confused:

Nonsense. You obviously haven't seen many Albanians.
There are a lot of very depigmented Albanians, but they're not a big part of the population.

[Ace Rimmer]

Who made the chromosome study that allegedly proves that they are Europeans?

Teams of leading European and World scientists on the field.

[dimitrije]

Serbs on average look darker than Albanians or any other ex-Yugo folk, so how are the Serbs Europeans and Albanians somehow are not?:confused:
Decko prestani da lupas gluposti:argue:
Srbi su beli jer su arijevski i evropski narod i ovde smo mnogo pre....
U ostalom ako tako mislis onda moras reci to isto i za hrvate jer su oni mahom pokatoliceni srbi,pogotvo takvi srbo-mrsci poput tebe
Znam sada ces reci kako su turci spavali sa nasim zenama,dok ste vi bili austrougarski konjusari
Pa da ti i to objasinim,svaka zena koja je rodila turskog mogrila bivala je zajedno sa njim odbacena od srpske zajednice i prihvacena od strane muslimana,to su danasnji vasi saveznici ili kako ih vi zovete vase cvece
Tako da mi nemamo nista sa tom azijskom sortom,vasim saveznicima

Sto se tice siptara koji su takodje vasi saveznici,oni su azijski narod koji su turci nastanili na Balkan

Procitaj onaj text koji sam postavio i prestani da siris ne istinu

[Watzy]

Decko prestani da lupas gluposti:argue:
Srbi su beli jer su arijevski i evropski narod i ovde smo mnogo pre....
U ostalom ako tako mislis onda moras reci to isto i za hrvate jer su oni mahom pokatoliceni srbi,pogotvo takvi srbo-mrsci poput tebe
Znam sada ces reci kako su turci spavali sa nasim zenama,dok ste vi bili austrougarski konjusari
Pa da ti i to objasinim,svaka zena koja je rodila turskog mogrila bivala je zajedno sa njim odbacena od srpske zajednice i prihvacena od strane muslimana,to su danasnji vasi saveznici ili kako ih vi zovete vase cvece
Tako da mi nemamo nista sa tom azijskom sortom,vasim saveznicima

Sto se tice siptara koji su takodje vasi saveznici,oni su azijski narod koji su turci nastanili na Balkan

Procitaj onaj text koji sam postavio i prestani da siris ne istinu

I'll trust to the genetics, C.S. Coon and my own eyesight rather than to Serb fabrications. Croats do not descend from Serbs, and Serbs aren't whiter than Albanians.:nono:

[Pablo Escobar]

I'll trust to the genetics

We agree on Albanians, but you have a weird tendency to misinterpret genetic data to suit your daily political views. Which is silly.


C.S. Coon and my own eyesight rather than to Serb fabrications.

Some of the most quoted C.S. Coon's 'works' are in fact fabrications
and Coon disowned them.


Croats do not descend from Serbs, and Serbs aren't whiter than Albanians.:nono:

I propose we ban the use of americanized bullshit like their 'white concept'.

[Pablo Escobar]

Znam sada ces reci kako su turci spavali sa nasim zenama,dok ste vi bili austrougarski konjusari

Pa, eto... novi genetski dokazi pokazuju da ni jedna ni druga bapska prica nema ama bas nikakve veze sa istinom.


Sto se tice siptara koji su takodje vasi saveznici,oni su azijski narod koji su turci nastanili na Balkan

Ali, ni to nije istina. Siptari su lokalni narod koliko i Dalmatinci, Grci, Srbi, Crnogorci, Makedonci i drugi.

[dimitrije]

and my own eyesight rather than to Serb fabrications. Croats do not descend from Serbs, and Serbs aren't whiter than Albanians.:nono:Slep si kod ociju,procitaj onaj text koji sam postavio,siptari su narod slican cecenima jer poticu sa iste teritotije

[Watzy]

Slep si kod ociju,procitaj onaj text koji sam postavio,siptari su narod slican cecenima jer poticu sa iste teritotije

Don't tell me you believe every crap you reed on the internet. There are Serbs who are trying to prove racial closeness to their Orthodox Armenoid brothers. Do you also believe there is a truth in similar (Caucasian) theories about Serbs? Notice this is a Serbian nationalist source, just like those cryptic scribbles you posted, and not some 'anti-serb' propaganda.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7681/origins.html
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7681/toponyms.html

[Pablo Escobar]

Slep si kod ociju,procitaj onaj text koji sam postavio,siptari su narod slican cecenima jer poticu sa iste teritotije

Netacan je tekst.

Prvo, Albanski i Cecenski nemaju nikakve veze jedan s drugim.
Jedino sto jezici slicno IZGLEDAJU napisani latinicom. Albanski je indo-evropski jezik, dok Cecenski ima totalno drugaciju strukturu.


Drugo, Kavkaska Albanija je juzni deo Kavkaza, danasnji Azerbejdzan,
dok je Cecenija dosta severnije.

[dimitrije]

Pablo druze budi siguran da je text tacan,sve sto kaze Jovan Deretic je tacno.Nazalost velike pare su utrosene da bi se falsifikovala istorija tako da je tesko u moru lazi prepoznati istinu ali zato je tu Jovan Deretic
Albanci-siptari nikako ne mogu biti kao ni njihov jezik indo-evropski,budi siguran u to.Ako si nekada video cistog siptara na plazi sigurno si uocio kako mu se razlikujku kolena i plecke na ledjima od nasih.Oni su azijati i imaju azijsku veru i nije im mesto u Evrpoi

[Pablo Escobar]

Pablo druze budi siguran da je text tacan,sve sto kaze Jovan Deretic je tacno.Nazalost velike pare su utrosene da bi se falsifikovala istorija tako da je tesko u moru lazi prepoznati istinu ali zato je tu Jovan Deretic

da ne ulazim mnogo u raspravu o Dereticu.


Albanci-siptari nikako ne mogu biti kao ni njihov jezik indo-evropski,budi siguran u to.

To je bar lako utvrditi. Proveri na bilo kom sajtu koji ima lingvisticke informacije. Albanski je Indo-Evropski jezik. To ne moze da se falsifikuje.
U pitanju je sama struktura jezika. Po svemu, Albanski jezik je Indo-Evropski,
dok je npr. veoma lako utvrditi da npr. Madjarski, Finski, Turski, Kineski, Japanski itd. nisu.

Ako si nekada video cistog siptara na plazi sigurno si uocio kako mu se razlikujku kolena i plecke na ledjima od nasih.

Prvo: otkud znas na plazi da je neko Siptar?

Drugo: koliko sam primetio individue se razlikuju po mnogo cemu. Ja imam plave oci, ali sam isto toliko Srbin koliko i neko ko ima braon ili zelene oci.

Trece: testovi Y-hromozoma pokazuju da su Albanci lokalni stanovnici,
slicno kao i Srbi, Grci, Hrvati itd.


Oni su azijati i imaju azijsku veru i nije im mesto u Evrpoi

Pa, eto, ja mislim da nisu Azijate i imam gomilu dokaza za to.

Hriscanstvo je takodje poteklo iz Azije,
a inace Albanci su u gotovo jednakoj meri i Katolicke i Pravoslavne veroispovesti koliko su Muslimani.

[dimitrije]

a inace Albanci su u gotovo jednakoj meri i Katolicke i Pravoslavne veroispovesti koliko su Muslimani.
Nemam volje sada da ti sve oblasnjavam,ne mogu ipsraviti sve sto su te ucili citav zivot,kada kazem da nisu beli mislim da nisu evropski narod
A i ovo oko veroispovesti si lupio oni su 70 procenata muslimani samo sto im odgovara u evropi da se perstavljau kao hriscani,dok u aziji rade obrnuto

[dimitrije]

Albanians are not white. They are the most ugly race I ve ever seen in whole of Europe. They have been mongrelized by everything and anything scraped from the botton of the DNA barrel.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Albanians are not aryans. Your scull is flat at back. Just as the mixed up Turks/Arabs. The Albanians in Britain are nothing more than rapists/pedophiles who try to act like negroes. Albania is a muslim state and has no right to claim to be part of white Europe


Ovako bi trebalo da izgleda misljenje jednog evropljanina o siptrima

[dimitrije]

Nadjoh inetrvju koji ce vam dokazati da siptari nisu iliri kao sto Zvaci verovatno misli i sto ce vam reci

The Albanian racism towards the neighbours is based on historical falsifications
Stanford University


Vitomir Dolinski: An interview with the persecuted albanian academic prof. Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich

The Albanian racism towards the neighbours is based on historical falsifications

VD: - You are regarded as a unique, albanian Mandela, but also as a political prisoner-record holder on the Balkan. For the insufficiently informed, at the beginning, tell us briefly about this?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - In former Yugoslavia I was sentenced two years strict imprisonment, allegedly for propaganda against the socialism and the “brotherhood and unity”. After I served the punishment to the last day in the jail Idrizovo, wishing to escape to the Soviet Union I got stuck in Albania with which the USSR exactly those days severed its diplomatic relations. After the ten-year internment I was arrested by the albanian authorities and sentenced 43 years of a most monstrous imprisonment, again allegedly for antigovernment propaganda, in possession of some revolver without license, preparing to escape and for insulting the investigator. Thus, in total I am sentenced 45 years, of which 37 for antigovernment propaganda, with which I think that I am the most heavily sentenced political prisoner on the Balkan and maybe I am a unique world record holder. Actually, if it wasn’t for the (political) changes in Albania I would probably have still been in jail today. To this sentence needs to be added the severed marriage in Yugoslavia, in which fortunately I didn’t have any children and also the second marriage, in Albania, in which I had two children. During the whole time of my incarceration, not only that I wasn’t allowed to see my children, but I didn’t even know if they were alive. No one was allowed to visit me, or to give me a piece of bread. Not even the other prisoners. Those who did that were punished and the poet Gani Shkudra, who came to see me, not only that they didn’t allow him to see me, but in front of the jail, on the spot, they arrested him and sentenced him with 10 years imprisonment, allegedly for political propaganda. The only transgression attributed to him in the accusation is recorded as: “he had gone to the jail Burel to see the public enemy Kaplan Resuli and brought him bread”. While I was languishing in the infamous jail Burel, ten times they skinned me alive, literally, wanting from me to abandon my yugoslavian (montenegrin) citizenship, the yugoslavian (montenegrin) nationality, my ideals, even my children. They were forcing me to declare myself an Albanian, not only as citizen, but in nationality (ethnicity). Several times they attempted to liquidate me, even after I was released from jail, three times they have attempted to assassinate me – twice in Tirana and once in Geneva. The Albanians themselves, not only my friends, but even the others who were antagonistic towards me, while I was in my jail cells, pronounced me an albanian Mandela. Even my most open adversary, the albanian writer Ismail Kadare, those days, the beginning of the nineties, in his attempts to befriend the european circles and Amnesty International who were involved in my freeing, did not shirk from naming me a martyr and a hero of Albania.

VD: - Before we turn towards that period and to Your specific relationship with the most famous, but undoubtedly the most controversial person of the albanian academy, as well, Ismail Kadare, lets return to the most important phases of your creative activities which led to Your wider literary and scientific affirmation?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - In Dubrovnik in 1952 I published the poem “Bojana” in which I openly named Yugoslavia and Albania, Golgotha, in which the people struggle and suffer. I was instantly called on the phone by my “countryman” Milovan Gjilas who then threatened me that he will squeeze my head so hard that instead of singing I would begin to wail. And it turned out thus. I hear in Yugoslavia he is regarded as the No.1 dissident. If truly there is no other person, then I know that I was that at least a little bit before him.

VD: - Your first jail sentence, unfortunately, occurred to You in Macedonia, where for some time in that period You worked as an educator?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Yes, I was a tutor in Tetovo when they arrested me. As it can be seen from the charges, in Macedonia I had done nothing wrong. I was accused that, allegedly, I had been involved in an antigovernment propaganda in Montenegro. And because I was and am a montenegrin citizen, the court proceedings should have been there, in my birth town of Ulcinj. The reason for my prosecution in Tetovo was that there I didn’t have any relatives and UDBa (yugoslavian state security), which knew that I am absolutely innocent, was afraid that my prosecution among my Ulcinj people could provoke some unwanted problems. For that reason it ordered my prosecution in Tetovo, behind closed doors. Although I am not from Tetovo, the people of this town, especially my students knew me well, as a professor and as a writer. Along the streets of the town from the court to the jail I was greeted with an open support from many of them and most likely for many of them it will be interesting to know that the key UDBa witness against me was then their collaborator, now allegedly a big fighter for the albanian cause, Adem Demaçi. The state prosecutor in his concluding talk, accusing me as “agens spiritus” of the yugoslavian youth against the regime and seeking to be charged as such, stated that I had been and hoped that I will continue to be in future, as well, a “constructive citizen” of Yugoslavia. It is interesting that Fatos Nano (albanian socialist premier) after my release from jail, here in Geneva described me as a “constructive citizen” of Albania, asking me to return there, in Tirana.

VD: - Your first more significant life’s disappointment, You said, implanted in You the idea to leave for the Soviet Union, but fate wanted again to play with you in a brutal fashion and “retain” You many years in the albanian jail Burel?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - True, that was some time after my completion of the jail sentence in Idrizovo. Burel was not a jail, but a place of horror. While in Idrizovo they would say “You are not here for us to fatten you up, but to count your bones” in Burel it was: “This place is called Burel, where one can get in, but can not get out”.

VD: - The numerous works which You wrote here most likely helped You to strengthen your spirit and, eventually, to survive. Actually, exactly here is created your most famous work, the novel “Treason”?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - From approximately 200,000 pages written during those thirty years, half of them I succeeded in transferring out of jail and to have them here, in Geneva. The other part was taken from me by the authorities and I have no idea what has happened with them. The novel “Treason”, otherwise, the Albanians themselves proclaimed it as a masterpiece of the albanian literature. One of the most eminent albanian critics, Prof. Tajar Zavaljani, even described it as the only worthy work published in Albania after World War II. That type of reception for the novel in Albania and amongst the albanian diaspora perturbed Enver Hoxha (Hodzha) who was attempting to establish his likeminded relative Ismail Kadare as the greatest albanian literary. That is why all of a sudden they “discovered” that I had not written the novel, attempting even to physically eliminate me, but it had been the work of Adem Demaçi (Demaky), for whom they were hoping that, in the meantime, he would perish in the yugoslavian jails. Since Demaçi got out of jail alive and I also survived, now, via the printed media, they have widened a campaign against me, unseen in the history of mankind, which, imagine, the novel had been written for me by UDBa, in order to establish myself with it in Albania and thus usurp the government from Enver.

V.D. - Thus far twice, in similar context, You mentioned Kadare and I would like to remind You of 1991 when Amnesty International, as well, engages in the requests for Your release from jail and, absurdly, the one who attempted to block it was none other, but Kadare. How, actually, could that be explained?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Kadare is catapulted in the West by Ramiz Alija and the widow of Enver Hoxha, with a well planned mission. At that time it was only one of his missions – to diminish my credibility amongst the albanian public and the diaspora, fearing that I may unmask them, spoiling their future plans. For that reason, not only in private, as was the case with Adem Demaçi, but also publicly, at meetings and via the printed media he barked against me and would accuse me, as they were instructing him from Tirana. Kadare and Demaçi are the main conspirators in of the most monstrous demonstrations in the history of mankind, when they strirred the albanian professors and students at Prishtina university to demonstrate in February 1991 against my release from jail.

VD: - On the subject “Kadare” You have up till now written much, to which special attention in the albanian public, but also in the european community have attracted Your books “The true face of Ismail Kadare” and “The lies do not alter the truth”. When, actually, began Your rivalry and what is, as You have mentioned, his well planned mission?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - In these books, actually, with documents and with facts, but also with his own self confessions, I have proven that he is catapulted in the West as an agent of Sigurimi (albanian state security), because he was that from always. As a principal ideolog of Enver, with secret interpretations on our works he was “passing judgment” for our maltreatments, internments and arrests. Actually, this was publicly stated, on Albanian Radio-Television in 1996 by the former head of Sigurimi, Zylfiar Ramizi, verifying that Kadare was in their service under the pseudonym General. He was a provocateur trained by Sigurimi to accuse anyone who, according to him, stood in his way, as he did that with me. And why? Because academic professor Dimitar Suterilji, in his principal paper which he read out at the second Congress of Albanian Writers, placed my name and novel before his. At one plenum of the Union in 1966 I openly criticised him, which enraged him, as he was not used to being criticised. Much later, after my release from jail, a major from Sigurimi involved in my arrest openly declared that, although totally innocent, they had arrested me because they had received a secret 12-page long accusation against me and my activities, exactly from Kadare. In the meantime, he totally put his pen and talent in the service of his benefactor Enver whose political speeches he was transforming into poems and novels. I don’t know if you are aware of the fact that Kadare published a complimentary poem lauding Enver’s “patriotic” dog, which somewhere at the border catches and pulls apart some unfortunate Albanian, only because the poor soul attempted to escape from Enver’s paradise. These are only a few pieces of evidence about the moral profile of the “great” literary and “certain” Nobel prize winner Ismail Kadare, whose main preoccupation today is to poison and deceive the West with the albanian historical falsifications about the alleged famous illiryan-albanian past and culture, which, what absurdity, had suffered multi-centuries harm from the activities of its surrounding barbaric “slavic” peoples.

VD: - This is, I think, an opportune moment to begin our discussion for Your third, certainly an important segment, as well, of Your writings – the scientific-research work. You have published numerous works from the sphere of the albanian historiography and linguistics, which brought You significant prestige, scientific titles and also an honorary membership in the Albanian Science Academy. When did actually begin Your scientific interest for the Albanology?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Already in 1995 at the university of Skopje it became clear to me that there will not be peace on the Balkan until the albanian question is clarified. For that reason I switched from the law faculty to the albanological studies and here, contrary to what was being said and written not only by the albanian, but also by our, yugoslavian scholars, contrary to what is being taught not only in the albanian language schools (in Albania, as well as in Macedonia), but also in the schools of “south-slavic” languages, I discovered that not only the Albanians are not autochthonous people, but they are also not related in any way to the Pelasgians or the Illyrians. Understandably, not one of the professors in albanology has said this to me. They still continued with the tale that allegedly Albanians are autochthonous pelasgoillyrian descendants. I discovered that by chance, studying the albanian language, which, all agree, is of the type SATEM. According to that global division of languages, researching the illyrian language I discovered that it is of the type KENTUM. The most elementary logic was saying to me that one SATEM language can not be a direct descendant, not even a kind of derivative of some KENTUM language, without a change of its substrate. Since the albanian language does not have any changes in its substrate, that means that the Albanians can’t be, under any circumstance, genealogical descendants of the Illyrians. Later I discovered this, as well, in the works of the world renown professors and scholars Paul, Hirt, Vaigand, Tomashek, Georgiev, Puscariu and many others, who with numerous scholarly arguments, linguistic and historical, have proven that the Albanians not only do not have anything in common with the Illyrians, not only that they are not autochthonous at any place in the Balkan, but they are not even autochthonous in the territories of modern day Albania. Vaigand for example has formulated 12 arguments. To all of those I’ve added another five. Unfortunately, these scientists are not being mentioned in (the study) Albanology, nor in Albania, nor aret they mentioned in Yugoslavia, or in Macedonia, because the albanian professors consciously hide the truth about the origins of the Albanians and, instead of it (the truth), to their pupils and students they serve up the lies about their autochthony and illyrian origin. Via those lies they poison the whole nation. This is not done accidentally, but with the aim to incite the Albanians against the neighbouring nations, thus, hooking them on the “fishing line” of some invented, wide ethnic territories, to use them as cannon fodder for the interests of some criminalised leaders and the international Capital. The primary motive that inspired me to oppose the albanian pseudo science about their illyrian origin was the truth, the love for the truth, my special inclination towards it, but second and equally as important motive was the fact that, watching the Albanians being breast-fed with chauvinism and racism, are being encouraged to fight their neighbouring peoples (nations), I was hoping that if the truth is explained to them, they will move away from the tales, legends and myths about their autochthony and illyromania, thus ceasing with their inexcusable and baseless hatred towards their neighbours.

VD: - How did the albanian public receive Your albanological research and discoveries?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Once even Enver Hoxha was forced to admit that the albanian science lacks scientific objectivity. The albanian poet Mimoza Erebara in the Science Academy asked them directly what was the situation with my scientific discoveries. They had told her: “We know that very well even before Kaplan, but now is not the time for all of that to be told” Since in the publication “YLBERI” (comes out since 1993, in Geneva) and especially through my albanological collection THE ILLYRIANS AND THE ALBANIANS I demonstrated in written form my points of view, the albanian academic Vincents Golleti, in the printed media stated: “The stances of Kaplan Burovikj about the albanological problems, especially on the problem of the origin of the Albanians, need to be greeted most warmly, while the studies which he publishes in relation with those problems should be propagated throughout the whole of the scholarly world”. After him followed the albanian scholar Dr. Adrian Qosi who in the middle of Tirana openly opposed the hypothesis about the illyrian origin of the Albanians. With me agreed, via the printed media, several other younger scholars of whom I would especially mention Fatos Ljubonja, Prof. Adrian Vebiu and others. I can say that today appeared a group of new albanian scholars who do not agree with the false myths and courageously accept the scientific truth. I am proud that I lead this group and that they took up from me the necessary scholarly courage. Because, believe me, that is not easy at all, as the extreme albanian nationalists, chauvinists and racists led by Ismail Kadare, through the most severe forms of chicanery and satanising are attempting to silence us at any cost. The mentioned Dr Adrian Klosi when he stated that the hypothesis for the illyrian origin of the Albanians is unfounded, added: “But it is better not to talk about that because they will declare us anti Albanians”. And they did.

VD: - Since when actually dates the oldest evidence for the existence of the Albanians and the albanian language?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - The oldest evidenced text in an albanian language is “Formula ë paleximit” (Formula for communion), translated from Latin in 8-11-1462 by the Montenegrin Pavle Angjelich, whom the Albanians have albanised with the name Pal Engylli. The first book in albanian is “Meshari” (The Book of Thoughts), a manual for religious sermons, dates from 1555 and is written by the Croatian Ivan Buzuk and published in Montenegro. And, understandably, they albanise him with the name Gjon Buzuku. For your information, the first primer in albanian, after the proclamation of the albanian independence is a work of “Slavs” and Vlachs. Dositej Obradovich is the first in history who opens a school in albanian language, while it was exactly Serbia which was the first state to recognise independent Albania. The Macedonians have a significant input in the development of the albanian culture. For example, one of the oldest publishers in Albania is the Macedonian Petar Budi (1566-1622) who has published three books in albanian, and also a Macedonian is Jovan Kukuzel, whom the Albanians have claimed as their own and have albanised with the name Jan Kukuzeli, although it is known that when he was born in Drach, XI century, here there still is not even one Albanian. Let me remind you also of Grigor Prlichev (1830-1893) who for some time is a teacher in Tirana and published the wonderful poem “Skenderbeg”. Undeniable is the fact that always at the forefront of all of their positive processes the Albanians had namely non Albanians. Lets mention, as well, at this opportune time only Georgi Kastriot – Skenderbeg, of an undeniable “slavic” ancestry, Naim Frasheri (a Vlach, an albanian national poet) or Fan Noli (a Greek, whose real name is Theofanos Mavromatis), Petar Bogdan, a Serb, or Ismail Kemali, a Turk who was proclaiming the albanian independence in 1912. As you can see, the foundations of the albanian culture and statehood are laid by non Albanians, from which a large number are “Slavs”, but that does not stand in the way of the albanian nationalists, or “marxists-leninists”, all the same, to thump their chests and declare that they have achieved everything by themselves and that the other people (nations), especially the “Slavs” have only been their enemies.

VD: - Undeniable is the fact that in Albania the toponyms are, say, without exception “slavic”. To what is that owed?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - On the territory of today’s Albania, as has already been confirmed by the most distinguished world scholars, from whom I have already mentioned some, first settled the Slavs. In 548 A.D. they enter also in Durrachium (Drach, Durrls). The Albanians come via Transylvania (Romania) and Bulgaria much later, IX-X century. In the meantime, understandably, the Slavs have already named all mountains, valleys, rivers, towns and villages, and built some new ones, giving them their own names. When the Albanians arrive on the Balkan and today’s Albania, there is nothing else they can do except to take those toponyms. A large part of Albania is flooded with serbian and macedonian toponyms. Just as an example I wish to mention the towns of Pogradec, Korça (Korcha), Çorovoda (Chorovoda), Berat, Bozigrad, Leskovik, Voskopoja, Kuzova, Kelcira, Bels and others.

VD: - In the macedonian community little is known that more than 90 percent of the lexical fund of the albanian language are words taken up from other languages. You especially have analysed the subject of the “slavisms” in the albanian language. It would be interesting some more to be said about this?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - For the first time I graduated in Skopje, exactly with the theme “Slavisms in the albanian language”. The second diploma, as well, at the university of Tirana, I defended with a linguistic theme. Especially in “The Dictionary of the Albanian Language in Ulcinj” I have elaborated the etymology of all words. Actually, it can be supposd that if the Turks did not come to the Balkans, the albanian language in not more than 100-200 years would have been completely “slavicised”. The serbian, macedonian and bulgarian languages have penetrated so much into the albanian language that they have flooded not only the lexicon, but they have displaced its phonetics, morphology and syntax. Besides the significant cultural prestige of these languages compared to the albanian, this is also due to the significant albanisation of not a small number of Serbs, Macedonians and Montenegrins, especially the ones who were previously islamised. As it is known, the Albanians have a strongly developed power of assimilation. That a good part of them by origin is Serbs, Macedonians or Montenegrins, is witnessed by their patrons, surnames, but many of them even today speak their “slavic” language. In Albania there are whole regions along the border, especially towards Macedonia, settled with a compact “slavic” population, which is even more numerous, lets say, than the Albanians in Macedonia.

VD: - Lets talk a little also about the numerous ethnonyms which from the albanian side, often baselessly, are forced as synonyms. How come so many ethnic names for the Albanians?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - That, as well, witnesses the ethnogenesis of the Albanians after their arrival on the Balkan and populating the northern albanian mountains. I have already mentioned about the Illyrians, but the second ethnonym to which they pretend, the Dardanians, it is known, were not Illyrians, but Thracians. Even if they (Dardanians) had been Illyrians, again they haven’t any connection with the Albanians, because that kind of connection neither have the Illyrians themselves. Science has proven that very clearly. In respect of the Albanoi(an)s, they are a celtic tribe which on the territory of Albania, in the region Mat, arrives in the IV century BC. Today’s Albanians, actually, only much, much later take over their name, as have done today’s Bulgarians from the non slavic Bulgars of Asparuh, or today’s French, from the old germanic Franks, deforming the old celtic name Arlbn/Arlbr. Arbanasi is the other name with which our ancestors the “Slavs” are naming them during the Middle Ages. Arnauts is the name which the Turks use for them. It should be known that not all Arnauts were at the same time Albanians, as well. Because the Arnauts (Albanians) got a reputation as good hired hands in the turkish empire, the other mercenaries were also called Arnauts. That means that there were Serbs, Montenegrins and Macedonians ARNAUTS, because some of them are also islamised, thus as muslims they serve under the turkish flag not only as common soldiers, but also as arnauts (mercenaries). Skiptar (or Shiptar and deformed Shiftar, all originate from the albanian appellative Shqipltar) is the current national name of the Albanians, spread amongst them in the XVII-XIX century, influenced by the name Osman, as the Turks were naming themselves. Namely, osman in turkish is “eagle”, while in albanian it is “shquipe”. Thus the Albanians of muslim faith wanted to relate themselves with the muslims Turks, which was also the aim of the Porte, even of the original platform of the Prizren League, which originally is not albanian at all, but pan islamic. And if its primary aims succeeded, most probably the Albanians would not exist today because all of them in the meantime would have become Turks.

VD: - Here as well, is the known division Ghegs-Toscs from which originates the known language question which, it seems, still has not been overcome by the Albanians?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - The language question in Albania is not settled even today. Although formally (and by force) Enver Hoxha established as a common, official language the Tosc dialect (until then it was the Gheg dialect), the Ghegs have not given up. They still continue to speak and write in their dialect, although they are persecuted and maltreated because of it. When in 1965 in Albania I published the novel “Treason” in the Gheg dialect the Albanians of northern Albania openly requested the language of this book to be declared as the literary and official language of Albania. That too was one of the reasons for my satanisation which still continues. You should know that the difference between the Tosc and the Gheg dialects is much bigger than the differences between some “slavic” languages, for example the macedonian and the serbian. From another side, more Albanians, about two thirds, speak in gheg, which is lexically richer, purer and also has much greater expressional opportunities. With the enforcement of the tosc dialect, which was of a pure political nature (motive), a crime has been perpetrated against the Albanians and their culture.

VD: - One of the fallacies (delusions), unfortunately, it seems somehow silently accepted even outside of Albania is the so called monolithic nature of the albanian population in the Republic of Albania in which allegedly live 97-98% ethnic Albanians, for which You have already said something previously. What is, according to You, the reality in that respect in Albania?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - When Albania is proclaimed and recognised as an independent nation (1912-1913) its population numbered 700,000 of which hardly 50% were Albanians, while the other half was made up of Vlachs (around 20%), “Slavs” (Macedonians, Serbs, Montenegrins, around 15%),Greeks (around5%) and others (Turks, Roms, Cherkesians, Italians, Jews and others, around 10%). With the passing of time, mostly by force, with denial of all national rights, including the right to speak in their own languages at home, or to carry their own national family names, they are to a certain extent assimilated. But, even besides the such forced albanisation, in Albania even today over 30% of the population speaks a non albanian language and retains its non albanian national identity, although they are registered as Albanians, as they are not permitted to declare differently. The non albanian origins of the population of Albania is also evident from their surnames Bello, Blushi, Bogdani, Buda, Budi, Dida, Dobraci, Dragovoja, Dragusha, Haveri(ch), Kapisuzi(ch), Mexi, Millani, Milloshi, Mojsiu, Muzaka, Najdeni, Peku, Prela, Ruka, Sillil, Shkura, Shundi, Ziu and many others.

VD: - In Your research You have also paid special attention to the ethnic expansion of the Albanians in the past 2-3 centuries towards its neighbouring (serbian, macedonian, greek and others) regions, for which now, the last several decades, to begin to proclaim exactly them as their “ethnic territories” in which they allegedly lived from eternity?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - This truly is absurd and, in any case it is good that there remain numerous proofs for their undeniable expansion, which I have integrally collected and published in my study “The origins of the Albanians in Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro and Greece”. One needs to be objective and tell the truth, not because of the truth itself, but because it will contribute toward overcoming of the many problems on the Balkan. That the Albanians only in the past couple of centuries have expanded admitted publicly, via the printed media, the most eminent contemporary albanian scientist, academic professor Elrem Cabej (Tsabej), who, forced by the numerous arguments, was unable, but to conclude that today’s territories on which the Albanians live are not “a zone of RESTRICTION”, but “a zone of EXPANSION”. And not only he! That also is verified in the “HISTORIA Ë SHQIPERISË” itself, compiled by the albanian scientists themselves.

VD: - Recently from Tirana were launched some “evidences” about an existence of 14 million Albanians. Amongst the numerous “Albanians” who had indebted the world civilisation was included, as well, Alexander of Macedonia!?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - I’ve read that, as well. The albanian academic, Prof. Dr Skender Rizaj once even in his “scientific” works stated that, also all Serbs, Montenegrins, Macedonians, Bosnians and Herzegovians are, in reality, “slavicised” Albanians. By that method we should “admit” that they are not only 14, but possibly even 140 millions. I have already published a study about the “scientific” work “The Illyrians spoke albanian – The Albanians speak illyrian” published by Preloc Margiljaj. I would like to present for this suitable moment only a few short quotes which can also be found in other albanian historical-linguistic “experts”: “The Albanians are one of the oldest nations (peoples) in Europe” (page 438) “it is clear that Crete is the first fireplace of culture and civilisation in the aegean region and in Europe. Crete from the forgotten times of the past was settled with the pelasgian, rather the illyrian or albanian people, thus in Crete ruled the albanian language, which in other words, is the starting point and the first source of the european culture and civilisation”. (page296). Starting from this, this albanian “scientist” wants the albanian language to be taught in all schools around the world as a compulsory language because, according to him, without knowing that language it would not be possible to comprehend the world culture(!?). In respect of Alexander of Macedonia, even Enver Hoxha has written that he is an Albanian, expressing that also in one discussion with the indian ambassador in Tirana, as if personally he, Enver, had sent him to India, even as an ambassador to establish friendly relations between these two countries and peoples. These undoubtedly racist yearnings of the Albanians are certainly the result of their economic and cultural poverty, of their backwardness and late development in comparison with the other nations, amongst which are those of its neighbours, I would say of their frustration because of all of that.

VD: - Do You believe, regardless, in the possibility that the young, unburdened scientists and politicians in Albania will accept the reality and they, abandoning the greater albanian dreams, to give their own contribution towards the development in real good-neighbourly relations?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - I do believe! I have already cited several names of such young scientists. I can also give you names of young politicians unburdened of the greater albanian yearnings. But they still don’t have the power for that, except their pens and good intentions, with which they can’t act freely because the albanian print media is strictly censured by the greateralbanians, and the streets of the cities, unfortunately, are still patrolled by gangsters who, in the service of the social-fascist band, are ready to hit anyone with a brick on the head or with a bullet in the forehead!

VD: - For ten years, as a political emigrant, You have been living in Geneva, Switzerland. Do you have an impression that the so called democratic Europe and the West, generally, understand our Balkan situations?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Democratic Europe, I’m afraid, at least in respect of us, does not exist at all. The antidemocratic one, on the other hand, hand never understood them, nor want to understand our Balkan difficulties. Europe was and still is in the service of The Capital. Its “democracy” is only an expression of that Capital. It uses our Balkan peoples and situations for penetration (expansion) and for ruling the world, for its own battle against the true, real democracy and its carriers.

VD: - Concordant with Your rich life experience, after all that in the past period happened on the Balkan, and which, sadly, culminated with several bloody wars, are You of the opinion that all of that, simply, had to happen?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - No! Absolutely not! All of that could and can, even needs to be solved without blood. Let the Albanians prove that even Moscow is theirs, thus give them even it. But until they prove that, they should not be given even one stone from our fatherlands, not only to prevent them from desecrating it, but in order to prevent them from smashing their own heads with it.

VD: - To conclude, I believe it would be interesting to hear Your prediction how the things could be developing in the near future?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - The Americans have reached their aim – on the Balkan they have installed their military bases. Let us hope that they will not support the terrorism and to use the Albanians as cannon fodder. And the Albanians, certainly, in the meantime will wake up and will not allow either the Americans or whoever else to use them as such. For that, understandably, with self criticism, all of us need to assist them. I hope that for this will also contribute this interview, for which I most sincerely thank you, not as a foreigner, but as your brother, because I have always thought of Skopje as my second birth town and Macedonia as my second, true fatherland. I use this opportunity to send my greetings to my school friends from the Skopje gymnasium “J. B. Tito”, also the personnel from the macedonian embassies in Geneva and Tirana with whom I have met many times and keep wonderful memories from the discussions with them, especially with the recent (former) ambassador in Albania, Risto Nikovski. Understandably, special greetings to my friends and “comrades” from KPD “Idrizovo”.

[Slavic Enforcer]

Trebao bi stavit link na izvor kad nesto sa drugih stranica kopiras.

[VAMPIR]

Ohohoho... Hungary is not Slavic nation! Education is a miracle!!!

[VAMPIR]

I'll trust to the genetics, C.S. Coon and my own eyesight rather than to Serb fabrications. Croats do not descend from Serbs, and Serbs aren't whiter than Albanians.:nono:
But you are still horsekeepers with thinking like that! :) As long as Croatians denies the same roots with Serbs, thinks will be shit as always. Look around man! Western people even don't know Slavic nations?! Pan Slavic idea will never die, but can be late when we come to mind!
We are half of Europe, and we alowed them to sort us?!!!
Such a tragedy of stupid people!
Always for pan slavic idea, never against west.
Simple, isn't? :D

[Watzy]

Ohohoho... Hungary is not Slavic nation! Education is a miracle!!!

But Hungary is biologically Slavic and more influenced by Slavic race than some 'Slavic' nations like Serbia or Montenegro in any case. Since the 5 century the entire Pannonian valley was already settled by Slavs.

[VAMPIR]

But Hungary is biologically Slavic and more influenced by Slavic race than some 'Slavic' nations like Serbia or Montenegro in any case. Since the 5 century the entire Pannonian valley was already settled by Slavs.
Please, answer me 'bout my comments. What do you think- Pan Slavic or not?

[VAMPIR]

Please, answer me 'bout my comments. What do you think- Pan Slavic or not?
What about Cro's? You are different then people in S&M? Nazi,nazi, nazi... SS forces couldn's stand what you were ready to do in 2nd world war. Jasenovac is yours. Serbs didn't kill 700 000 of Croatian people, but you killed Serbs! East (Russian) people remember Croatia's BLACK LEGIONS, with only one goal: kill as much as possible civilians! Never fighters, just slaughters.
Now about Montenegro. Where were Croatia when Montenegro was only free country on the balkans for 400 years of Turkish empire?
Timarili konje, a? :222: :hump: :rofl:

[VAMPIR]

DEMANTUJ OVO:

Ti ne znade mreti kraj slomljenog maca,
Na poljima rodnim, braneci ih casno
Kitio si cvecem svakog osvajaca,
Pevajuc mu himne, bestidno i glasno.

Slobodu si vecno, zakrzljala raso,
Cek'o da donesu tudi bajoneti,
Po gorama svojim tudja stada pas'o,
Jer dostojno ne znas za Slobodu mreti.

Pokazi mi redom Viteze tvog roda,
Sto balcakom s ruku slomise ti lance,
Gde je Karadorde tvojega naroda,
Pokazi mi tvoje termopilske klance.

S tudinskom si kamom puzio po blatu,
S krvolostvom zvera, pogane hijene,
Da bi mucki udar s leda dao Bratu,
I ubio porod u utrobi zene.

Jos bezbrojna groblja zatravio nisi,
A krvavu kamu u nedrima skrivas,
Sa vesala starih novi konop visi,
U sumraku uma novog gazdu snivas?.

Branio si zemlju od nejaci nase,
Iz kolevke pio krv nevine dece,
Pod znamenje srama uz ime ustase,
Stavio si Hrista, Slobodu i Svece.

U bezumlju gledas ko ce nove kame,
Ostrije i ljuce opet da ti skuje,
Ciju li ces pusku obesit' o rame,
Ko najbolje ume da ti komanduje.

[6(sic)6]

Albanians are not white. They are the most ugly race I ve ever seen in whole of Europe. They have been mongrelized by everything and anything scraped from the botton of the DNA barrel.

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Albanians are not aryans. Your scull is flat at back. Just as the mixed up Turks/Arabs. The Albanians in Britain are nothing more than rapists/pedophiles who try to act like negroes. Albania is a muslim state and has no right to claim to be part of white Europe


Ovako bi trebalo da izgleda misljenje jednog evropljanina o siptrima
Man oh man.... Retardism at it's best.
What you think about albanians is up to you show me some studys that says Albanians are negroids,asians and turks or just shut up!

[6(sic)6]

Nadjoh inetrvju koji ce vam dokazati da siptari nisu iliri kao sto Zvaci verovatno misli i sto ce vam reci

The Albanian racism towards the neighbours is based on historical falsifications
Stanford University


Vitomir Dolinski: An interview with the persecuted albanian academic prof. Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich

The Albanian racism towards the neighbours is based on historical falsifications

VD: - You are regarded as a unique, albanian Mandela, but also as a political prisoner-record holder on the Balkan. For the insufficiently informed, at the beginning, tell us briefly about this?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - In former Yugoslavia I was sentenced two years strict imprisonment, allegedly for propaganda against the socialism and the “brotherhood and unity”. After I served the punishment to the last day in the jail Idrizovo, wishing to escape to the Soviet Union I got stuck in Albania with which the USSR exactly those days severed its diplomatic relations. After the ten-year internment I was arrested by the albanian authorities and sentenced 43 years of a most monstrous imprisonment, again allegedly for antigovernment propaganda, in possession of some revolver without license, preparing to escape and for insulting the investigator. Thus, in total I am sentenced 45 years, of which 37 for antigovernment propaganda, with which I think that I am the most heavily sentenced political prisoner on the Balkan and maybe I am a unique world record holder. Actually, if it wasn’t for the (political) changes in Albania I would probably have still been in jail today. To this sentence needs to be added the severed marriage in Yugoslavia, in which fortunately I didn’t have any children and also the second marriage, in Albania, in which I had two children. During the whole time of my incarceration, not only that I wasn’t allowed to see my children, but I didn’t even know if they were alive. No one was allowed to visit me, or to give me a piece of bread. Not even the other prisoners. Those who did that were punished and the poet Gani Shkudra, who came to see me, not only that they didn’t allow him to see me, but in front of the jail, on the spot, they arrested him and sentenced him with 10 years imprisonment, allegedly for political propaganda. The only transgression attributed to him in the accusation is recorded as: “he had gone to the jail Burel to see the public enemy Kaplan Resuli and brought him bread”. While I was languishing in the infamous jail Burel, ten times they skinned me alive, literally, wanting from me to abandon my yugoslavian (montenegrin) citizenship, the yugoslavian (montenegrin) nationality, my ideals, even my children. They were forcing me to declare myself an Albanian, not only as citizen, but in nationality (ethnicity). Several times they attempted to liquidate me, even after I was released from jail, three times they have attempted to assassinate me – twice in Tirana and once in Geneva. The Albanians themselves, not only my friends, but even the others who were antagonistic towards me, while I was in my jail cells, pronounced me an albanian Mandela. Even my most open adversary, the albanian writer Ismail Kadare, those days, the beginning of the nineties, in his attempts to befriend the european circles and Amnesty International who were involved in my freeing, did not shirk from naming me a martyr and a hero of Albania.

VD: - Before we turn towards that period and to Your specific relationship with the most famous, but undoubtedly the most controversial person of the albanian academy, as well, Ismail Kadare, lets return to the most important phases of your creative activities which led to Your wider literary and scientific affirmation?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - In Dubrovnik in 1952 I published the poem “Bojana” in which I openly named Yugoslavia and Albania, Golgotha, in which the people struggle and suffer. I was instantly called on the phone by my “countryman” Milovan Gjilas who then threatened me that he will squeeze my head so hard that instead of singing I would begin to wail. And it turned out thus. I hear in Yugoslavia he is regarded as the No.1 dissident. If truly there is no other person, then I know that I was that at least a little bit before him.

VD: - Your first jail sentence, unfortunately, occurred to You in Macedonia, where for some time in that period You worked as an educator?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Yes, I was a tutor in Tetovo when they arrested me. As it can be seen from the charges, in Macedonia I had done nothing wrong. I was accused that, allegedly, I had been involved in an antigovernment propaganda in Montenegro. And because I was and am a montenegrin citizen, the court proceedings should have been there, in my birth town of Ulcinj. The reason for my prosecution in Tetovo was that there I didn’t have any relatives and UDBa (yugoslavian state security), which knew that I am absolutely innocent, was afraid that my prosecution among my Ulcinj people could provoke some unwanted problems. For that reason it ordered my prosecution in Tetovo, behind closed doors. Although I am not from Tetovo, the people of this town, especially my students knew me well, as a professor and as a writer. Along the streets of the town from the court to the jail I was greeted with an open support from many of them and most likely for many of them it will be interesting to know that the key UDBa witness against me was then their collaborator, now allegedly a big fighter for the albanian cause, Adem Demaçi. The state prosecutor in his concluding talk, accusing me as “agens spiritus” of the yugoslavian youth against the regime and seeking to be charged as such, stated that I had been and hoped that I will continue to be in future, as well, a “constructive citizen” of Yugoslavia. It is interesting that Fatos Nano (albanian socialist premier) after my release from jail, here in Geneva described me as a “constructive citizen” of Albania, asking me to return there, in Tirana.

VD: - Your first more significant life’s disappointment, You said, implanted in You the idea to leave for the Soviet Union, but fate wanted again to play with you in a brutal fashion and “retain” You many years in the albanian jail Burel?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - True, that was some time after my completion of the jail sentence in Idrizovo. Burel was not a jail, but a place of horror. While in Idrizovo they would say “You are not here for us to fatten you up, but to count your bones” in Burel it was: “This place is called Burel, where one can get in, but can not get out”.

VD: - The numerous works which You wrote here most likely helped You to strengthen your spirit and, eventually, to survive. Actually, exactly here is created your most famous work, the novel “Treason”?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - From approximately 200,000 pages written during those thirty years, half of them I succeeded in transferring out of jail and to have them here, in Geneva. The other part was taken from me by the authorities and I have no idea what has happened with them. The novel “Treason”, otherwise, the Albanians themselves proclaimed it as a masterpiece of the albanian literature. One of the most eminent albanian critics, Prof. Tajar Zavaljani, even described it as the only worthy work published in Albania after World War II. That type of reception for the novel in Albania and amongst the albanian diaspora perturbed Enver Hoxha (Hodzha) who was attempting to establish his likeminded relative Ismail Kadare as the greatest albanian literary. That is why all of a sudden they “discovered” that I had not written the novel, attempting even to physically eliminate me, but it had been the work of Adem Demaçi (Demaky), for whom they were hoping that, in the meantime, he would perish in the yugoslavian jails. Since Demaçi got out of jail alive and I also survived, now, via the printed media, they have widened a campaign against me, unseen in the history of mankind, which, imagine, the novel had been written for me by UDBa, in order to establish myself with it in Albania and thus usurp the government from Enver.

V.D. - Thus far twice, in similar context, You mentioned Kadare and I would like to remind You of 1991 when Amnesty International, as well, engages in the requests for Your release from jail and, absurdly, the one who attempted to block it was none other, but Kadare. How, actually, could that be explained?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Kadare is catapulted in the West by Ramiz Alija and the widow of Enver Hoxha, with a well planned mission. At that time it was only one of his missions – to diminish my credibility amongst the albanian public and the diaspora, fearing that I may unmask them, spoiling their future plans. For that reason, not only in private, as was the case with Adem Demaçi, but also publicly, at meetings and via the printed media he barked against me and would accuse me, as they were instructing him from Tirana. Kadare and Demaçi are the main conspirators in of the most monstrous demonstrations in the history of mankind, when they strirred the albanian professors and students at Prishtina university to demonstrate in February 1991 against my release from jail.

VD: - On the subject “Kadare” You have up till now written much, to which special attention in the albanian public, but also in the european community have attracted Your books “The true face of Ismail Kadare” and “The lies do not alter the truth”. When, actually, began Your rivalry and what is, as You have mentioned, his well planned mission?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - In these books, actually, with documents and with facts, but also with his own self confessions, I have proven that he is catapulted in the West as an agent of Sigurimi (albanian state security), because he was that from always. As a principal ideolog of Enver, with secret interpretations on our works he was “passing judgment” for our maltreatments, internments and arrests. Actually, this was publicly stated, on Albanian Radio-Television in 1996 by the former head of Sigurimi, Zylfiar Ramizi, verifying that Kadare was in their service under the pseudonym General. He was a provocateur trained by Sigurimi to accuse anyone who, according to him, stood in his way, as he did that with me. And why? Because academic professor Dimitar Suterilji, in his principal paper which he read out at the second Congress of Albanian Writers, placed my name and novel before his. At one plenum of the Union in 1966 I openly criticised him, which enraged him, as he was not used to being criticised. Much later, after my release from jail, a major from Sigurimi involved in my arrest openly declared that, although totally innocent, they had arrested me because they had received a secret 12-page long accusation against me and my activities, exactly from Kadare. In the meantime, he totally put his pen and talent in the service of his benefactor Enver whose political speeches he was transforming into poems and novels. I don’t know if you are aware of the fact that Kadare published a complimentary poem lauding Enver’s “patriotic” dog, which somewhere at the border catches and pulls apart some unfortunate Albanian, only because the poor soul attempted to escape from Enver’s paradise. These are only a few pieces of evidence about the moral profile of the “great” literary and “certain” Nobel prize winner Ismail Kadare, whose main preoccupation today is to poison and deceive the West with the albanian historical falsifications about the alleged famous illiryan-albanian past and culture, which, what absurdity, had suffered multi-centuries harm from the activities of its surrounding barbaric “slavic” peoples.

VD: - This is, I think, an opportune moment to begin our discussion for Your third, certainly an important segment, as well, of Your writings – the scientific-research work. You have published numerous works from the sphere of the albanian historiography and linguistics, which brought You significant prestige, scientific titles and also an honorary membership in the Albanian Science Academy. When did actually begin Your scientific interest for the Albanology?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Already in 1995 at the university of Skopje it became clear to me that there will not be peace on the Balkan until the albanian question is clarified. For that reason I switched from the law faculty to the albanological studies and here, contrary to what was being said and written not only by the albanian, but also by our, yugoslavian scholars, contrary to what is being taught not only in the albanian language schools (in Albania, as well as in Macedonia), but also in the schools of “south-slavic” languages, I discovered that not only the Albanians are not autochthonous people, but they are also not related in any way to the Pelasgians or the Illyrians. Understandably, not one of the professors in albanology has said this to me. They still continued with the tale that allegedly Albanians are autochthonous pelasgoillyrian descendants. I discovered that by chance, studying the albanian language, which, all agree, is of the type SATEM. According to that global division of languages, researching the illyrian language I discovered that it is of the type KENTUM. The most elementary logic was saying to me that one SATEM language can not be a direct descendant, not even a kind of derivative of some KENTUM language, without a change of its substrate. Since the albanian language does not have any changes in its substrate, that means that the Albanians can’t be, under any circumstance, genealogical descendants of the Illyrians. Later I discovered this, as well, in the works of the world renown professors and scholars Paul, Hirt, Vaigand, Tomashek, Georgiev, Puscariu and many others, who with numerous scholarly arguments, linguistic and historical, have proven that the Albanians not only do not have anything in common with the Illyrians, not only that they are not autochthonous at any place in the Balkan, but they are not even autochthonous in the territories of modern day Albania. Vaigand for example has formulated 12 arguments. To all of those I’ve added another five. Unfortunately, these scientists are not being mentioned in (the study) Albanology, nor in Albania, nor aret they mentioned in Yugoslavia, or in Macedonia, because the albanian professors consciously hide the truth about the origins of the Albanians and, instead of it (the truth), to their pupils and students they serve up the lies about their autochthony and illyrian origin. Via those lies they poison the whole nation. This is not done accidentally, but with the aim to incite the Albanians against the neighbouring nations, thus, hooking them on the “fishing line” of some invented, wide ethnic territories, to use them as cannon fodder for the interests of some criminalised leaders and the international Capital. The primary motive that inspired me to oppose the albanian pseudo science about their illyrian origin was the truth, the love for the truth, my special inclination towards it, but second and equally as important motive was the fact that, watching the Albanians being breast-fed with chauvinism and racism, are being encouraged to fight their neighbouring peoples (nations), I was hoping that if the truth is explained to them, they will move away from the tales, legends and myths about their autochthony and illyromania, thus ceasing with their inexcusable and baseless hatred towards their neighbours.

VD: - How did the albanian public receive Your albanological research and discoveries?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Once even Enver Hoxha was forced to admit that the albanian science lacks scientific objectivity. The albanian poet Mimoza Erebara in the Science Academy asked them directly what was the situation with my scientific discoveries. They had told her: “We know that very well even before Kaplan, but now is not the time for all of that to be told” Since in the publication “YLBERI” (comes out since 1993, in Geneva) and especially through my albanological collection THE ILLYRIANS AND THE ALBANIANS I demonstrated in written form my points of view, the albanian academic Vincents Golleti, in the printed media stated: “The stances of Kaplan Burovikj about the albanological problems, especially on the problem of the origin of the Albanians, need to be greeted most warmly, while the studies which he publishes in relation with those problems should be propagated throughout the whole of the scholarly world”. After him followed the albanian scholar Dr. Adrian Qosi who in the middle of Tirana openly opposed the hypothesis about the illyrian origin of the Albanians. With me agreed, via the printed media, several other younger scholars of whom I would especially mention Fatos Ljubonja, Prof. Adrian Vebiu and others. I can say that today appeared a group of new albanian scholars who do not agree with the false myths and courageously accept the scientific truth. I am proud that I lead this group and that they took up from me the necessary scholarly courage. Because, believe me, that is not easy at all, as the extreme albanian nationalists, chauvinists and racists led by Ismail Kadare, through the most severe forms of chicanery and satanising are attempting to silence us at any cost. The mentioned Dr Adrian Klosi when he stated that the hypothesis for the illyrian origin of the Albanians is unfounded, added: “But it is better not to talk about that because they will declare us anti Albanians”. And they did.

VD: - Since when actually dates the oldest evidence for the existence of the Albanians and the albanian language?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - The oldest evidenced text in an albanian language is “Formula ë paleximit” (Formula for communion), translated from Latin in 8-11-1462 by the Montenegrin Pavle Angjelich, whom the Albanians have albanised with the name Pal Engylli. The first book in albanian is “Meshari” (The Book of Thoughts), a manual for religious sermons, dates from 1555 and is written by the Croatian Ivan Buzuk and published in Montenegro. And, understandably, they albanise him with the name Gjon Buzuku. For your information, the first primer in albanian, after the proclamation of the albanian independence is a work of “Slavs” and Vlachs. Dositej Obradovich is the first in history who opens a school in albanian language, while it was exactly Serbia which was the first state to recognise independent Albania. The Macedonians have a significant input in the development of the albanian culture. For example, one of the oldest publishers in Albania is the Macedonian Petar Budi (1566-1622) who has published three books in albanian, and also a Macedonian is Jovan Kukuzel, whom the Albanians have claimed as their own and have albanised with the name Jan Kukuzeli, although it is known that when he was born in Drach, XI century, here there still is not even one Albanian. Let me remind you also of Grigor Prlichev (1830-1893) who for some time is a teacher in Tirana and published the wonderful poem “Skenderbeg”. Undeniable is the fact that always at the forefront of all of their positive processes the Albanians had namely non Albanians. Lets mention, as well, at this opportune time only Georgi Kastriot – Skenderbeg, of an undeniable “slavic” ancestry, Naim Frasheri (a Vlach, an albanian national poet) or Fan Noli (a Greek, whose real name is Theofanos Mavromatis), Petar Bogdan, a Serb, or Ismail Kemali, a Turk who was proclaiming the albanian independence in 1912. As you can see, the foundations of the albanian culture and statehood are laid by non Albanians, from which a large number are “Slavs”, but that does not stand in the way of the albanian nationalists, or “marxists-leninists”, all the same, to thump their chests and declare that they have achieved everything by themselves and that the other people (nations), especially the “Slavs” have only been their enemies.

VD: - Undeniable is the fact that in Albania the toponyms are, say, without exception “slavic”. To what is that owed?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - On the territory of today’s Albania, as has already been confirmed by the most distinguished world scholars, from whom I have already mentioned some, first settled the Slavs. In 548 A.D. they enter also in Durrachium (Drach, Durrls). The Albanians come via Transylvania (Romania) and Bulgaria much later, IX-X century. In the meantime, understandably, the Slavs have already named all mountains, valleys, rivers, towns and villages, and built some new ones, giving them their own names. When the Albanians arrive on the Balkan and today’s Albania, there is nothing else they can do except to take those toponyms. A large part of Albania is flooded with serbian and macedonian toponyms. Just as an example I wish to mention the towns of Pogradec, Korça (Korcha), Çorovoda (Chorovoda), Berat, Bozigrad, Leskovik, Voskopoja, Kuzova, Kelcira, Bels and others.

VD: - In the macedonian community little is known that more than 90 percent of the lexical fund of the albanian language are words taken up from other languages. You especially have analysed the subject of the “slavisms” in the albanian language. It would be interesting some more to be said about this?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - For the first time I graduated in Skopje, exactly with the theme “Slavisms in the albanian language”. The second diploma, as well, at the university of Tirana, I defended with a linguistic theme. Especially in “The Dictionary of the Albanian Language in Ulcinj” I have elaborated the etymology of all words. Actually, it can be supposd that if the Turks did not come to the Balkans, the albanian language in not more than 100-200 years would have been completely “slavicised”. The serbian, macedonian and bulgarian languages have penetrated so much into the albanian language that they have flooded not only the lexicon, but they have displaced its phonetics, morphology and syntax. Besides the significant cultural prestige of these languages compared to the albanian, this is also due to the significant albanisation of not a small number of Serbs, Macedonians and Montenegrins, especially the ones who were previously islamised. As it is known, the Albanians have a strongly developed power of assimilation. That a good part of them by origin is Serbs, Macedonians or Montenegrins, is witnessed by their patrons, surnames, but many of them even today speak their “slavic” language. In Albania there are whole regions along the border, especially towards Macedonia, settled with a compact “slavic” population, which is even more numerous, lets say, than the Albanians in Macedonia.

VD: - Lets talk a little also about the numerous ethnonyms which from the albanian side, often baselessly, are forced as synonyms. How come so many ethnic names for the Albanians?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - That, as well, witnesses the ethnogenesis of the Albanians after their arrival on the Balkan and populating the northern albanian mountains. I have already mentioned about the Illyrians, but the second ethnonym to which they pretend, the Dardanians, it is known, were not Illyrians, but Thracians. Even if they (Dardanians) had been Illyrians, again they haven’t any connection with the Albanians, because that kind of connection neither have the Illyrians themselves. Science has proven that very clearly. In respect of the Albanoi(an)s, they are a celtic tribe which on the territory of Albania, in the region Mat, arrives in the IV century BC. Today’s Albanians, actually, only much, much later take over their name, as have done today’s Bulgarians from the non slavic Bulgars of Asparuh, or today’s French, from the old germanic Franks, deforming the old celtic name Arlbn/Arlbr. Arbanasi is the other name with which our ancestors the “Slavs” are naming them during the Middle Ages. Arnauts is the name which the Turks use for them. It should be known that not all Arnauts were at the same time Albanians, as well. Because the Arnauts (Albanians) got a reputation as good hired hands in the turkish empire, the other mercenaries were also called Arnauts. That means that there were Serbs, Montenegrins and Macedonians ARNAUTS, because some of them are also islamised, thus as muslims they serve under the turkish flag not only as common soldiers, but also as arnauts (mercenaries). Skiptar (or Shiptar and deformed Shiftar, all originate from the albanian appellative Shqipltar) is the current national name of the Albanians, spread amongst them in the XVII-XIX century, influenced by the name Osman, as the Turks were naming themselves. Namely, osman in turkish is “eagle”, while in albanian it is “shquipe”. Thus the Albanians of muslim faith wanted to relate themselves with the muslims Turks, which was also the aim of the Porte, even of the original platform of the Prizren League, which originally is not albanian at all, but pan islamic. And if its primary aims succeeded, most probably the Albanians would not exist today because all of them in the meantime would have become Turks.

VD: - Here as well, is the known division Ghegs-Toscs from which originates the known language question which, it seems, still has not been overcome by the Albanians?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - The language question in Albania is not settled even today. Although formally (and by force) Enver Hoxha established as a common, official language the Tosc dialect (until then it was the Gheg dialect), the Ghegs have not given up. They still continue to speak and write in their dialect, although they are persecuted and maltreated because of it. When in 1965 in Albania I published the novel “Treason” in the Gheg dialect the Albanians of northern Albania openly requested the language of this book to be declared as the literary and official language of Albania. That too was one of the reasons for my satanisation which still continues. You should know that the difference between the Tosc and the Gheg dialects is much bigger than the differences between some “slavic” languages, for example the macedonian and the serbian. From another side, more Albanians, about two thirds, speak in gheg, which is lexically richer, purer and also has much greater expressional opportunities. With the enforcement of the tosc dialect, which was of a pure political nature (motive), a crime has been perpetrated against the Albanians and their culture.

VD: - One of the fallacies (delusions), unfortunately, it seems somehow silently accepted even outside of Albania is the so called monolithic nature of the albanian population in the Republic of Albania in which allegedly live 97-98% ethnic Albanians, for which You have already said something previously. What is, according to You, the reality in that respect in Albania?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - When Albania is proclaimed and recognised as an independent nation (1912-1913) its population numbered 700,000 of which hardly 50% were Albanians, while the other half was made up of Vlachs (around 20%), “Slavs” (Macedonians, Serbs, Montenegrins, around 15%),Greeks (around5%) and others (Turks, Roms, Cherkesians, Italians, Jews and others, around 10%). With the passing of time, mostly by force, with denial of all national rights, including the right to speak in their own languages at home, or to carry their own national family names, they are to a certain extent assimilated. But, even besides the such forced albanisation, in Albania even today over 30% of the population speaks a non albanian language and retains its non albanian national identity, although they are registered as Albanians, as they are not permitted to declare differently. The non albanian origins of the population of Albania is also evident from their surnames Bello, Blushi, Bogdani, Buda, Budi, Dida, Dobraci, Dragovoja, Dragusha, Haveri(ch), Kapisuzi(ch), Mexi, Millani, Milloshi, Mojsiu, Muzaka, Najdeni, Peku, Prela, Ruka, Sillil, Shkura, Shundi, Ziu and many others.

VD: - In Your research You have also paid special attention to the ethnic expansion of the Albanians in the past 2-3 centuries towards its neighbouring (serbian, macedonian, greek and others) regions, for which now, the last several decades, to begin to proclaim exactly them as their “ethnic territories” in which they allegedly lived from eternity?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - This truly is absurd and, in any case it is good that there remain numerous proofs for their undeniable expansion, which I have integrally collected and published in my study “The origins of the Albanians in Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro and Greece”. One needs to be objective and tell the truth, not because of the truth itself, but because it will contribute toward overcoming of the many problems on the Balkan. That the Albanians only in the past couple of centuries have expanded admitted publicly, via the printed media, the most eminent contemporary albanian scientist, academic professor Elrem Cabej (Tsabej), who, forced by the numerous arguments, was unable, but to conclude that today’s territories on which the Albanians live are not “a zone of RESTRICTION”, but “a zone of EXPANSION”. And not only he! That also is verified in the “HISTORIA Ë SHQIPERISË” itself, compiled by the albanian scientists themselves.

VD: - Recently from Tirana were launched some “evidences” about an existence of 14 million Albanians. Amongst the numerous “Albanians” who had indebted the world civilisation was included, as well, Alexander of Macedonia!?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - I’ve read that, as well. The albanian academic, Prof. Dr Skender Rizaj once even in his “scientific” works stated that, also all Serbs, Montenegrins, Macedonians, Bosnians and Herzegovians are, in reality, “slavicised” Albanians. By that method we should “admit” that they are not only 14, but possibly even 140 millions. I have already published a study about the “scientific” work “The Illyrians spoke albanian – The Albanians speak illyrian” published by Preloc Margiljaj. I would like to present for this suitable moment only a few short quotes which can also be found in other albanian historical-linguistic “experts”: “The Albanians are one of the oldest nations (peoples) in Europe” (page 438) “it is clear that Crete is the first fireplace of culture and civilisation in the aegean region and in Europe. Crete from the forgotten times of the past was settled with the pelasgian, rather the illyrian or albanian people, thus in Crete ruled the albanian language, which in other words, is the starting point and the first source of the european culture and civilisation”. (page296). Starting from this, this albanian “scientist” wants the albanian language to be taught in all schools around the world as a compulsory language because, according to him, without knowing that language it would not be possible to comprehend the world culture(!?). In respect of Alexander of Macedonia, even Enver Hoxha has written that he is an Albanian, expressing that also in one discussion with the indian ambassador in Tirana, as if personally he, Enver, had sent him to India, even as an ambassador to establish friendly relations between these two countries and peoples. These undoubtedly racist yearnings of the Albanians are certainly the result of their economic and cultural poverty, of their backwardness and late development in comparison with the other nations, amongst which are those of its neighbours, I would say of their frustration because of all of that.

VD: - Do You believe, regardless, in the possibility that the young, unburdened scientists and politicians in Albania will accept the reality and they, abandoning the greater albanian dreams, to give their own contribution towards the development in real good-neighbourly relations?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - I do believe! I have already cited several names of such young scientists. I can also give you names of young politicians unburdened of the greater albanian yearnings. But they still don’t have the power for that, except their pens and good intentions, with which they can’t act freely because the albanian print media is strictly censured by the greateralbanians, and the streets of the cities, unfortunately, are still patrolled by gangsters who, in the service of the social-fascist band, are ready to hit anyone with a brick on the head or with a bullet in the forehead!

VD: - For ten years, as a political emigrant, You have been living in Geneva, Switzerland. Do you have an impression that the so called democratic Europe and the West, generally, understand our Balkan situations?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Democratic Europe, I’m afraid, at least in respect of us, does not exist at all. The antidemocratic one, on the other hand, hand never understood them, nor want to understand our Balkan difficulties. Europe was and still is in the service of The Capital. Its “democracy” is only an expression of that Capital. It uses our Balkan peoples and situations for penetration (expansion) and for ruling the world, for its own battle against the true, real democracy and its carriers.

VD: - Concordant with Your rich life experience, after all that in the past period happened on the Balkan, and which, sadly, culminated with several bloody wars, are You of the opinion that all of that, simply, had to happen?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - No! Absolutely not! All of that could and can, even needs to be solved without blood. Let the Albanians prove that even Moscow is theirs, thus give them even it. But until they prove that, they should not be given even one stone from our fatherlands, not only to prevent them from desecrating it, but in order to prevent them from smashing their own heads with it.

VD: - To conclude, I believe it would be interesting to hear Your prediction how the things could be developing in the near future?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - The Americans have reached their aim – on the Balkan they have installed their military bases. Let us hope that they will not support the terrorism and to use the Albanians as cannon fodder. And the Albanians, certainly, in the meantime will wake up and will not allow either the Americans or whoever else to use them as such. For that, understandably, with self criticism, all of us need to assist them. I hope that for this will also contribute this interview, for which I most sincerely thank you, not as a foreigner, but as your brother, because I have always thought of Skopje as my second birth town and Macedonia as my second, true fatherland. I use this opportunity to send my greetings to my school friends from the Skopje gymnasium “J. B. Tito”, also the personnel from the macedonian embassies in Geneva and Tirana with whom I have met many times and keep wonderful memories from the discussions with them, especially with the recent (former) ambassador in Albania, Risto Nikovski. Understandably, special greetings to my friends and “comrades” from KPD “Idrizovo”.
Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich sure sounds albanian.:rolleyes:

[Watzy]

But you are still horsekeepers with thinking like that! :)
You are forgetting the Orthodox Serbs are western stable boys no1. in Croatia. In the past they owned their existence to Austrians, Hungarians, Fascist Italians and now to EU - always against the host-nation.

As long as Croatians denies the same roots with Serbs, thinks will be shits as always.

We are accustomed 'having shits' since we are a nation of generational frontiersmen.

Look around man! Western people even don't know Slavic nations?!

Wrong, most of the Western people (western Slavs included) are not falling for pan-Orthodox, agenda concealed behind the mask of pan-Slavism.

Pan Slavic idea will never die, but can be late when we come to mind!

It is already dead - killed by Russian imperialism over Poles, Czechs and Ukrainians, by Polish hegemony over Ukrainians, by Czech hegemony over Slovaks and by Serb expansionism toward Croats...

In most of the cases these dominated peoples were treated better by non-Slavic dominators than their (supposedly) brotherly nations.

[VAMPIR]

You are forgetting the Orthodox Serbs are western stable boys no1. in Croatia. In the past they owned their existence to Austrians, Hungarians, Fascist Italians and now to the British and EU - always against the host-nation.



We are accustomed having shits since we are a nation of generational frontiersmen.



Wrong, most of the Western people (western Slavs included) are not falling for pan-Orthodox, agenda concealed behind the mask of pan-Slavism.



It is already dead - killed by Russian imperialism over Poles, Czechs and Ukrainians, by Polish hegemony over Ukrainians, by Czech hegemony over Slovaks and by Serb expansionism toward Croats...

In most of the cases these dominated peoples were treated better by non-Slavic dominators than their (supposedly) brotherly nations.
Pan Slavism idea was born in non Ortodox Slavic nation! It was born in Czech! So, it can not be pan ortodox idea. Serb expansionism toward Croats... Hmmm.. So they did JASENOVAC? Mudri momce... All in all - sadly.:nono:

[Watzy]

Pan Slavism idea was born in non orthodox Slavic nation! It was born in Czech! So, it can not be pan orthodox idea.

The origin is not as important as the concrete usage. Take Socialism as the best example - it was originally a by-product of the Western philosophy designed for industrialized West, yet the Slavic countries were major bastions of it for decades.

The western pioneers of pan-slavism ideally imagined the ideal Slavic state as some sort of the commonwealth of equal Slavic nations, yet they underestimated the appetites of larger individual nations which misused pan-Slavic idea for their own narrow purposes..

Serb expansionism toward Croats... Hmmm.. So they did JASENOVAC?

Serb expansionism was imagined long before WW2 (and the deserved punishment in Jasenovac):

http://www.freewebs.com/index44/serbianexpansionism.htm

[VAMPIR]

The origin is not as important as the concrete usage. Take Socialism as the best example - it was originally a by-product of the Western philosophy designed for industrialized West, yet the Slavic countries were major bastions of it for decades.

The western pioneers of pan-slavism ideally imagined the ideal Slavic state as some sort of the commonwealth of equal Slavic nations, yet they underestimated the appetites of larger individual nations misused pan-Slavic idea for their own narrow purposes..



Serb expansionism was imagined long before WW2 (and the deserved punishment in Jasenovac):

http://www.freewebs.com/index44/serbianexpansionism.htm
Can it be true that you just wrote that Serbs deserved JASENOVAC?!!! O my God, I can't belive that. Can you imagine what horror was there? Over 700 000 of people were murdered so brutally...
I don't want to belive that you realy mean this.

[Watzy]

Can it be true that you just wrote that Serbs deserved JASENOVAC?!!! O my God, I can't belive that. Can you imagine what horror was there? Over 700 000 of people were murdered so brutally...
I don't want to belive that you realy mean this.

Serbs executed in Jasenovac deserved nothing but death because they were convicted criminals, outlaws and bandits - much like they were in recent war. Jasenovac myths and numbers are nothing but a pack of lies and fabrication of Serb Chetniks and Communist Yugoslavia, it was nothing less than a highly humanitarian prison/labor-camp. ;)

http://www.hic.hr/books/analysis/part-03.htm
http://www.hr/darko/etf/bul.html

[VAMPIR]

Serbs executed in Jasenovac deserved nothing but death because they were convicted criminals, outlaws and bandits - much like they were in recent war. Jasenovac myths and numbers are nothing but a pack of lies and fabrication of Serb Chetniks and Communist Yugoslavia, it was nothing less than a highly humanitarian prison/labor-camp. ;)

http://www.hic.hr/books/analysis/part-03.htm
http://www.hr/darko/etf/bul.html
Da da, u pravu si potpuno! Pogledaj ovo.
http://jasenovac.info/cd/žrtve/deca-žrtve/hrvatska.html
Imas spisak svih nastradalih kojima je utvrdjen identitet.Imas mnogo slicica.

[Watzy]

Da da, u pravu si potpuno! Pogledaj ovo.
http://jasenovac.info/cd/žrtve/deca-žrtve/hrvatska.html
Imas spisak svih nastradalih kojima je utvrdjen identitet.Imas mnogo slicica.

Link ne radi, a što se spiskova tiće, njih su radili partizani i pravoslavne agencije po svijetu koje su u imena ubrojili čak i Hrvate stradale u savezničkim bombardiranjima Dalmacije.:rolleyes:

Slike mršave djeca koje su čede naslijedili od partizana pa ih sad cunjaju nisu nikakvi logoraši već siročad koja pati od tifusa i nametnika.

[VAMPIR]

Link ne radi, a što se spiskova tiće, njih su radili partizani i pravoslavne agencije po svijetu koje su u imena ubrojili čak i Hrvate stradale u savezničkim bombardiranjima Dalmacije.:rolleyes:

Slike mršave djeca koje su čede naslijedili od partizana pa ih sad cunjaju nisu nikakvi logoraši već siročad koja pati od tifusa i nametnika.
Pa vidis kako mozemo da pricamo na slovenskom jeziku! Divno! I to je nesto. Molim te reci mi odakle tolika mrznja medju vama i Srbima?:confused:

[Watzy]

Molim te reci mi odakle tolika mrznja medju vama i Srbima?:confused:

Pa nije li kada malo bolje razmisliš mržnja sporedan motiv u čitavoj ovoj priči? Sve se u stvari svodi na nagon uništavanjem neprijatelja radi individualnog i kolektivnog opstanka. U ratu su Hrvate/Srbe ubijali i oni Hrvati/Srbi koji su ih voljeli i oni koji su ih mrzili...takova je priroda stvari.

[VAMPIR]

Pa nije li kada malo bolje razmisliš mržnja sporedan motiv u čitavoj ovoj priči? Sve se u stvari svodi na nagon uništavanjem neprijatelja radi individualnog i kolektivnog opstanka. U ratu su Hrvate/Srbe ubijali i oni Hrvati/Srbi koji su ih voljeli i oni koji su ih mrzili...takova je priroda stvari.
Pazi, mi Crnogorci bili smo im najiskreniji saveznik koga je svijet ikada vidio, cak smo i svoju drzavu dali za njih (1916, Mojkovacka bitka) da bi nam se to kasnije vratilo kako? Pa opet ih ne mrzimo. Mislim fanatika ima svugdje, ali kakav opstanak? Ko je kome smetao ZAISTA da opstane?:confused:

[6(sic)6]

Pan-Slavic?
The serbs attack their own due to religion...
Don't really think that bosnians want's any pan-slavic.

[VAMPIR]

Pan-Slavic?
The serbs attack their own due to religion...
Don't really think that bosnians want's any pan-slavic.
And your etnicity is? And how sure you can be about that if don't live in Balkans?:confused:

[6(sic)6]

And your etnicity is? And how sure you can be about that if don't live in Balkans?:confused:
Im albanian.... I also have bosnian and belive it or not serbian freinds.

[VAMPIR]

Im albanian.... I also have bosnian and belive it or not serbian freinds.
Why shouldn't I? Good man is good man, no matter race, religion or etnicity. That always was and will be. I have very good friends who are Albanian, and like you can see I'm Montenegrian. We were good friends for such a long time ( I mean Alb. and Montenegrians), sometimes godfathers, and blood brothers (besa) :)
Where you are from?

[6(sic)6]

Why shouldn't I? Good man is good man, no matter race, religion or etnicity. That always was and will be. I have very good friends who are Albanian, and like you can see I'm Montenegrian. We were good friends for such a long time ( I mean Alb. and Montenegrians), sometimes godfathers, and blood brothers (besa) :)
Where you are from?
I was born in Kosovo... Fled the country when I was a child.
Suddenly serbian polices where harrassing ppl so we decided to move.
Montenegro hmmm.... Hopefully you will get your independence.

[VAMPIR]

I was born in Kosovo... Fled the country when I was a child.
Suddenly serbian polices where harrassing ppl so we decided to move.
Montenegro hmmm.... Hopefully you will get your independence.
If you know anything about M'negro, you must know that for centuries wasn't crashes between Montenegrians and Albanians. Even more! There always was friendship, till complete madness in '90, but it going down, slow but safe :) . Dont missunderstand me, mariages were rear, but respect was constant.:)

[6(sic)6]

If you know anything about M'negro, you must know that for centuries wasn't crashes between Montenegrians and Albanians. Even more! There always was friendship, till complete madness in '90, but it going down, slow but safe :) . Dont missunderstand me, mariages were rear, but respect was constant.:)
Albs and Montengrians will like you said evolve freindship...
The fact that they want independence also got support from us.:)
Hopefully Albs will help you guys on the way.

[VAMPIR]

Albs and Montengrians will like you said evolve freindship...
The fact that they want independence also got support from us.:)
Hopefully Albs will help you guys on the way.
Just tell me one more thing. What do you think about Kosovo? Is it Albanian origin land?

[Jebivjetar]

Pablo druze budi siguran da je text tacan
Je li to onaj koji je našao Srbe na Himalaji? :rofl:



EDIT:
Ovo valjda najgluplji topic na forumu. Svaka čast.

[6(sic)6]

Just tell me one more thing. What do you think about Kosovo? Is it Albanian origin land?
Kosovo is a region of great cultural significance for Serbia, the site of important medieval events. At the same time, it has a majority Albanian population today, and the Illyrian evidence says that proto-Albanians were there long before the Serbs. Both nations claim it. In cases like this, scholarship is mixed with nationalist politics: that is why controversy accompanies history here.

http://www.lib.msu.edu/sowards/balkan/lecture1.html

The entire Jugoslavia once belonged to albanians....
The thing is that we (albanians) always lived there before the serbs and the serbs got to greedy and wanted to control this is the result...
Kosova soon indpendent,Bosnia already and Montengreo perhaps later.

[Bajlozi]

Who made the chromosome study that allegedly proves that they are Europeans?
You inferior armenoid;
Y chromosome haplotypes in Albanian population from Kosovo.
Pericic M, Lauc LB, Klaric IM, Janicijevic B, Behluli I, Rudan P.

Institute for Anthropological Research, Amruseva 8, 10000 Zagreb, Croatia. mpericic@luka.inantro.hr

Eight Y chromosome short tandem repeat (STR) polymorphisms (DYS19, DYS385, DYS389I, DYS389II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, and DYS393) were analyzed in the sample of 117 unrelated Albanian males living in Kosovo. A general STR allelic frequency pattern in the Albanian population from Kosovo corresponds to other European populations. Fourty six haplotypes were observed in single copy. The most frequent haplotypes were (DYS19-DYS385-DYS389I-DYS389II-DYS390-DYS391-DYS392-DYS393) 14-11/11-13-29-24-11-13-13 (10.26%), 14-14/17-12-28-24-10-11-12 (9.40%), 13-16/18-13-30-24-10-11-13 (9.40%), and 14-17/17-13-31-24-10-11-13 (9.40%).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15485724&query_hl=6&itool=pubmed_docsum

Maternal and paternal lineages in Albania and the genetic structure of Indo-European populations.
Belledi M, Poloni ES, Casalotti R, Conterio F, Mikerezi I, Tagliavini J, Excoffier L.

Dipartimento di Biologia Evolutiva e Funzionale, Universita di Parma, Italy. belledi@irisbioc.bio.unipr.it

Mitochondrial DNA HV1 sequences and Y chromosome haplotypes (DYS19 STR and YAP) were characterised in an Albanian sample and compared with those of several other Indo-European populations from the European continent. No significant difference was observed between Albanians and most other Europeans, despite the fact that Albanians are clearly different from all other Indo-Europeans linguistically. We observe a general lack of genetic structure among Indo-European populations for both maternal and paternal polymorphisms, as well as low levels of correlation between linguistics and genetics, even though slightly more significant for the Y chromosome than for mtDNA. Altogether, our results show that the linguistic structure of continental Indo-European populations is not reflected in the variability of the mitochondrial and Y chromosome markers. This discrepancy could be due to very recent differentiation of Indo-European populations in Europe and/or substantial amounts of gene flow among these populations.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10909846&query_hl=6&itool=pubmed_docsum

[Banat]

Please folks, keep it on topic, which is: Do you consider Slavic nations as part of Western civilisation (whatever it might mean).

All the off-topic Serbian/Croatian/Albanian "chit-chats" will be removed very soon. And you Bajlozi, behave like a nice boy or you'll get spanked. If Serbian-Albanian discussions need to have place, they should be held in a responsible and semi-intellignet manner, and not be turned into mutual trashing.

[Pablo Escobar]

Please folks, keep it on topic, which is: Do you consider Slavic nations as part of Western civilisation (whatever it might mean).

All the off-topic Serbian/Croatian/Albanian "chit-chats" will be removed very soon. And you Bajlozi, behave like a nice boy or you'll get spanked. If Serbian-Albanian discussions need to have place, they should be held in a responsible and semi-intellignet manner, and not be turned into mutual trashing.

Ah, who cares, lock the thread. It's worthless anyway.

[Petyr Baelish]

I agree with this man.

You ask me about Greece there: present day Greece can hardly be compared with its ancestors three millenia ago. Those people were among the founders of Europe yes, but today's orthodox goatherds have little that make them western. :)


The ancient Greeks had nothing that made them "Western" by your definition.

[vojvoda]

You inferior armenoid;
At least Croats don't 'keep it in the family', you inbred mountain hick.

[vojvoda]

Albs and Montengrians will like you said evolve freindship...

Hopefully Albs will help you guys on the way.

And stab them in the back as usual

[6(sic)6]

And stab them in the back as usual
And you are?:hump:

[Watzy]

Albs and Montengrians will like you said evolve freindship...
The fact that they want independence also got support from us.:)
Hopefully Albs will help you guys on the way.

There shall be one more sign on the Adriatic Charter (http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2003/20153.htm).

Soon we shall get another jackal in our small but hungry pack gathered around the stumbling beef...