Ashkenazi Jews are White! [Archive]

ogenoct

03-02-2009, 01:05 PM

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=52950&postcount=1%3Cbr%20/%3E

http://www.geocities.com/racial_myths/jews.html

We all know that Nazis believe this myth wholeheartedly, and will continue to believe it, but what’s disconcerting is that more and more Jews are beginning to accept it as well, inadvertently supporting the unscientific racial theories of the Nazis, rather than refuting them as I’m sure every Jew and other liberal would want to do. The reason for this newfound need of Jews to be considered non-white is in part rooted in the social benefits that come with minority (i.e. colored) status in our rampant victim culture, but perhaps more in the identity politics of the day.

The Jews are in fact white by every anthropological definition of the word. The ancient Hebrews were a Mediterranean people, probably originally from the Arabian Peninsula, and therefore belonged to the Caucasian racial group. I know, I know, what white supremacists really mean when they say that Jews are "non-white" is that they’re non-"Aryan" or non-European, that is, not Nordic and Alpine in physical appearance, but that’s wrong too. The very fact that Hitler had to identify them with gold Stars of David so he could tell them apart from his "Aryan Supermen" attests to this. While it’s true that Sephardic (Middle-Eastern and North African) Jews are typically very Mediterranean, Ashkenazi (European, especially Eastern) Jews are for the most part Alpine and Alpine-Mediterranean, often exhibiting various Nordic traits. This is due to the absorption of much Indo-European ancestry into the Hebrew populations that settled there, or even possibly to the conversion of native European populations to Judaism.

In his article "Who Are the Jews?" (Natural History, November 1993), Jared Diamond is quick to downplay the European admixture among Ashkenazi Jews and discredit the theory that the Ashkenazim are descended largely from non-Semitic Central Asian Khazars who converted to Judaism in the 8th centurey (which has neither been proven nor disproven genetically), all in an effort to portray Jews as somehow "purely Israelite". He focuses on mtDNA and Y chromosome research that has shown all modern ethnically Jewish populations (save for the non-ethnically Jewish Ethiopian Jews) to be very closely related and to have ties with the ancient Hebrews of the Middle East. This is certainly true (and expected), but it can't be used—as it has been by both Jews and neo-Nazis—to prove that Jews aren't European. European gentiles also cluster genetically with Near Easterners, precisely because both groups are Caucasoid (and many, such as Southern Europeans, Eastern Europeans and certain populations of Britain, possess specific genetic patterns found among Near Eastern peoples, reflecting historical migrations of Phoenicians, Moors, Turks, etc.). This only indicates the presence of Mediterranean ancestry, as the Mediterranean type originated in the Near East. Neolithic farmers from the Fertile Crescent brought agriculture to Europe and are said to reflect up to 20% of European genetic heritage.

While previous studies of Y chromosome polymorphisms showed a small European contribution to the Jewish gene pool, Nebel et al. discovered that Eu 19 chromosomes common to Eastern European populations (54%-60%) were found at a rate of 12.7% among Eastern European Jews, conlcuding that "Kurdish and Sephardic Jews were indistinguishable from one another, whereas both differed slightly, yet significantly, from Ashkenazi Jews" (Am J Hum Genet, 2001). This isn't yet definitive or quantitative genetic evidence of the European influence among Jews, but coupled with historical, anthropological and phenotypic data, it certainly suggests a relatively high degree of admixture. Hopefully, though, such studies will lead to more inquiry on the matter that will help wade through the political propaganda involved.

Another argument, again made by Jews and neo-Nazis alike, is that Jews' genetic closeness and distinctness from surrounding non-Jews proves that they constitute a unique and separate race. But this can easily be accounted for by genetic drift in a small, isolated population. And Jews are by no means the only group to which this phenomenon has occurred. Icelanders, though a mix of Celtic and Scandinavian peoples, are genetically isolated from the rest of Europe, but no one would consider them non-white or even any different from Swedes, Danes and Irishmen. Sardinians, Cretans and Basques are other examples of populations composed of various Caucasoid subracial elements who are phenotypically identical to their surrounding populations, though genetically isolated from them.

It’s unfortunate that the tales spun about Jews by Nazis for political reasons are now being mirrored by similar politically-motivated tales coming from the Jews themselves. However, it’s difficult to convince any rational individual, especially in light of the folly of Nazism, that a group of people that resembles the majority, dominates in fields such as law, medicine, business and media, and is on the whole quite wealthy qualifies as an oppressed racial minority.

ogenoct

03-02-2009, 02:03 PM

Grapple

03-02-2009, 03:05 PM

soldiers in the Red Army disproportionally earned the decoration "Hero of the Soviet Union." About 150 Jews received this award. The Jews ranked fifth among the nationalities that received the award. They excelled in the struggle for the liberation of Holy Europe!
So how are atheist Jewish communists supposed to have liberated “Holy Europe”?

And thanks for once again showing the Jewishness of communism

ogenoct

03-02-2009, 04:08 PM

And thanks for once again showing the Jewishness of communism

I did no such thing.

Starr

03-02-2009, 04:57 PM

We all know that Nazis believe this myth wholeheartedly, and will continue to believe it, but what’s disconcerting is that more and more Jews are beginning to accept it as well, inadvertently supporting the unscientific racial theories of the Nazis, rather than refuting them as I’m sure every Jew and other liberal would want to do. The reason for this newfound need of Jews to be considered non-white is in part rooted in the social benefits that come with minority (i.e. colored) status in our rampant victim culture, but perhaps more in the identity politics of the day.

Why is this stated as if it were something new? Jews have always set themselves apart from the larger white gentile populations they have dowelled among. They, themselves have resisted assimilation as much if not more than people have resisted the idea of them assimilating. Og, why do you want us to look at them in a way that they do not even look at themselves? I am curious as to whether you go to jewish websites/forums or talk to jews through other methods, telling them they are white and have common ground with other white people. Do you tell them they should involve themselves with opposing non white immigration and things of that nature? If so I would like to know the response as I know what the response would be in most circumstances. Nearly(if not every) well known Jewish group in our nations stands firmly against white traditional culture and its dominant majority status. They are even opposed to ideas that are still considered respectably conservative. A couple of examples would be illegal immigration, gay marriage issues, and second amendment rights.(yes, I am aware there is a group called "Jews for the preservation of fire arms", or something to that effect, but they are the exception, not the rule)

Empress Cheesatine

03-02-2009, 05:30 PM

Here's a question. Who does Ogenoct think these white Ashkenazi Jews will side with when push comes to shove? White gentiles or Sephardim?

Grapple

03-02-2009, 05:50 PM

I did no such thing.
Sure you did, you claimed that Jews were disproportionally Heroes of the Soviet Union. That they excelled in spreading communism into Europe.

ogenoct

03-02-2009, 05:54 PM

That they excelled in spreading communism into Europe.

You equate showing bravery in battle with "spreading Communism into Europe"? You are an idiot.

Empress Cheesatine

03-02-2009, 05:59 PM

You equate showing bravery in battle with "spreading Communism into Europe"? You are an idiot.

Since when have a lot of Jews been in battle outside of Israel? The US has the largest population of Jews in the world and they rarely serve in active duty. They prefer to infest elsewhere.

Allegheny

03-02-2009, 06:06 PM

'White' -- very imprecise. If Ashkenazi Jews are counted as White, that definition would also encompass Kurds, Armenians, perhaps a majority of Turks, Lebanese, most Uzbeks, most Iranians, and many Syrians, Palestinians, Iraqis, Jordanians, etc.

Grapple

03-02-2009, 06:19 PM

You equate showing bravery in battle with "spreading Communism into Europe"? You are an idiot.
And you can’t seem to understand that their “bravery” was for the communist government of the Soviet Union and it was that same communist government who declared these Jews to be brave. So what brave things did these Jewish communist do, did they shoot the Russian soldiers who failed to attack, did they round up the Russian soldiers families and put them in Gulags, did they confiscated the land and property of the people whose countries they invaded.

Insert witty user name here

03-02-2009, 06:34 PM

Since most Jews in Israel are Ashkenazim, one can logically conclude that Israel is a White nation. Why then do most White nationalists condemn their White brothers and sisters in Israel? They act like Cain against Abel! This fratricidal madness must stop! After all, Hitler has been dead for over 60 years. Let us not revive this anti-White monster. King David had red hair. The Jews fought valiantly in the Red Army against the Nazi oppressor and exterminator. Jewish soldiers in the Red Army disproportionally earned the decoration "Hero of the Soviet Union." About 150 Jews received this award. The Jews ranked fifth among the nationalities that received the award. They excelled in the struggle for the liberation of Holy Europe!

Although Jews (both Ashkenazi and Sephardim) are Caucasoid, the term White is very subjective. The term is a social construct. There are characteristcis that define Caucasoid, but when it comes to Whiteness it depends on the personal view of a particular person. Even our own government willl classify a Mexican with significant Amerindian heritage as White when it comes to crime statistics since Hispanic is a cultural term rather than a racial term. So it's perfectly find for a person to view Jews as not being White, especially if they view Levantines (and Jews apparently are a mix) as being an "other," but it can't be denied they are Caucasoid.

Bulan

03-02-2009, 06:44 PM

Since when have a lot of Jews been in battle outside of Israel? The US has the largest population of Jews in the world and they rarely serve in active duty. They prefer to infest elsewhere.

WWI:
A higher percentage of German Jews fought in World War I than that of any other ethnic, religious or political group in Germany—in fact, some 12,000 died for their country. Ironically, it was a Jewish lieutenant, Hugo Gutmann, who awarded the Iron Cross, First Class, to a 29-year-old corporal named Adolf Hitler. When Hitler came to power in 1933, Gutmann left Germany and escaped to the United States.

WWII:
"Over 550,000 Jewish men and women responded to America’s call for the Armed Forces in World War II. About 11,000 were killed; over 40,000 were wounded.

There were three recipients of the Medal of Honor; 157 received the Distinguished Service Medals and Crosses, which included Navy Crosses, and over 1,600 were awarded the Silver Star. Over 52,000 other decorations, citations and awards were given to Jewish heroes.

Now the Census doesn't track religion, but the accepted percentage of the US population is roughly 1.6% Jewish. So taking the military age population of the US in 1940 at roughly 30 million, and the US Jewish military figure of just over 1/2 million... almost every Jewish person of militia age was serving during World War II."

KerguelenExileDissident

03-02-2009, 06:58 PM

Speaking on a purely objective scientific anthropological level ashkenazi Jews would be considered "White Caucasian" based on genetic analysis. There is some trace amounts of Semitic blood and Turkic blood from Mongoloid tribes of the eat but this accounts for only trace amounts. I imagine Ashkenazi Jews vary between 85-95% white respectively. Keeping in mind that even Germans are 2% non-white on average, French are 4-6% and Italians about the same.

In reality these numbers mean very little, with vast amounts of caucasian blood in the mix even being 1/4 non-white in many cases may not be important. The truth is however that Ashkenazi Jews have so mixed with Europeans that they basically are white whether Neo-Nazis or Jews like it or not. However, Jewish culture is definately not Western in any sense of the imagination, they are their own kind of enclosed culture residing within our own and the true elements of their culture only come out in Orthodox Judaism. Jews such as Sephardim, Mihzrai, Eretz Israel etc... are NOT white but vary between arab, black, indian, even some rare cases of meztizo and east asian. So it depends on what kind of Jew you are speaking of. Then it is important to remember there are traceable elements of imbreeding that has created a unique Jew in its specific situation. Askenazi Jews the ones mostly identified and comprising 70% of the total Jewish world population would best be described as slightly mongrolized imbread white. This may be considered negative but I prefer to look at qualities. Like it or not there are a lot of intelligent Jews who have contributed to civilizations over time.

Speaking of ancient "Jews" "judeans" or "Hebrews" who lived in palestine, anthropologically speaking I am not sure how anyone could consider modern Jews to be the same people that migrated out of the levant genetically. While there is a genetic connection, it has become extremely drowned out with outside genetic influence.

We know from plenty of study that large parts of the middle-east was occupied with varying types of White Caucasians which includes among others Egypt, Hittite, Libya, probably Sumer, Elamites, Iranians, Sumerians, Gutians, Philistines and Phonecians. The Early Jews came out of this mishmash and as time went on the middle-east became mixed with Semitic elements. It is likely that Jews having come from Sumer, lived in Egypt and eventually Palestine, and having a language similiar to White Phonecians but yet slightly mixed with semitic probably originally was extremely diverse in its physical appearence. Overall I would probably describe ancient Jews as looking something similiar to Southern Italians with bits and pieces of slightly arab looking individuals towards the bottom of society and more white and even nordic looking individuals towards the top. For example, King David translated from the original hebrew does in fact mean "Red Head."

In relating to why White Nationalists don't support Israel it goes back to very simple basis. Jews are actively working to destroy their host societies and it would be suicide to support their activities. It is in their very belief system and religion to undermind and dominate other cultures and civilizations, they are tribal and anyone outside the tribe is a mere animal. HOWEVER it is much more complicated than this. Not all "Jews" believe this and while most do, there is always an individual level to look at things. Next remember the debate internally in Judaism, Most Jews in the West are Liberal Reformed Jews (accounting for 60%) of the Jewish population. These Jews are probably most dangerous and destructive not only to Western Civilization but to themselves as in their own ignorance they are hurting Israel by supporting Liberalism at home. Liberal Judaism itself it's roots in the Enlightenment and is very unique within Jewish tradition. Then we have the more conservative Judaism and Orthodox Judaism which while better in terms of society, they still work within their own tribe.

So the direct problem with Judaism is not their genes, their religion, their culture, but rather it is their belief system ingrained in the Talmud which seeks to destroy their host society. I find it amusing that Ethopian Jews often had huge theological clashes with Jews in Modern Israel because these Jews are so ancient they didn't even have the Talmud, which is the source for most extreme anti-gentile beliefs and actions.

In short I would not blame Jews at all, blame your arrogant identity lacking foolish white race for allowing themselves to be duped so easily. I do think however that given the extreme emergency Western Civilization is in, while I think outright support for Judaism is completely suicidal, I do believe that there can be some kind of deal reach within "certain elements" of Judaism. Namely Orthodox or Ultra-Orthodox who reject the Talmudism and adhere strictly to Torah. Those groups out there who finally realize they should help their little goy friends instead of tearing him down, lest they be massacred by marauding hordes of Arabs and Blacks.

elbwgreez

03-02-2009, 07:05 PM

Niccolo and Donkey

03-02-2009, 07:08 PM

I guess that makes most of them self-hating Whites, considering they really do have an enormous tendency to hate the White European culture/race.

Ridiculous since Jews will more often that not put their nation above their race (like most people do).

Jews often say they have a right to exist (as Jews, not Whites), but how many have ever said White people have a right to exist?

The right of nations to exist is enshrined in international law and since many of these nations are white nations, your question is answered.

Racialists really, really need to learn that the overwhelming majority of people on this globe put nation above race (and rightly so).

KerguelenExileDissident

03-02-2009, 07:09 PM

Notice I said culturally they are not Western, which basically means culturally they are not white.

The real issue here is whites exist in any significant amount of power or influence because of Western Civilization and white people, and they just can't figure out without Whites they will be nothing but a pissant tribe of yemenite Jews.

ogenoct

03-02-2009, 07:12 PM

I guess that makes most of them self-hating Whites, considering they really do have an enormous tendency to hate the White European culture/race. Jews often say they have a right to exist (as Jews, not Whites), but how many have ever said White people have a right to exist?

Yes, in this respect they are no different than most other White ethnic groups. Also, most Russians and Greeks would also argue that they have a right to exist as Russians and Greeks and not as Whites. In what way are Jews different than other White ethnic groups? Where is the evidence that most jews "hate White/European culture/race"? Do you have reliable statistics? All the Jews I know do not hate European culture. On the contrary, they are all of the intellectual type and very much admire European literature and philosophy. How many White gentiles today say that White people have a right to exist? Not many. Again, why single out the Jews?

KerguelenExileDissident

03-02-2009, 07:16 PM

Another amusing thing Ashkenazi Jews foolishly overlook with when Mexicans, Arabs, and Blacks become majorities they will simply overlook the fact they are Jewish and will simply see them as white, resulting in the same treatment they showed for any other white caucasian among them.

I think the only "non-white" society Jews ever achieved anything remotely resembling the power they had in the West is Islamic Spain, which itself had plenty of whites in the system, including white berbers.

Thomas777

03-02-2009, 07:19 PM

KerguelenExileDissident

03-02-2009, 07:24 PM

I believe the simple cause for Anti-Semitism is actutally a simple correlation that is observable phenomenon. This correlation of Jews being disportionately represented in activities, groups, and beliefs that hurt a given civilization and if this is observable then this correlation equals causation.

Kostya Novoselov

03-02-2009, 07:28 PM

Jewish soldiers in the Red Army disproportionally earned the decoration "Hero of the Soviet Union."

As theorized by de Nugent and other white nationalists, Jews belong to the Neanderthal blood line.

That may explain the Jew fighting ferocity.

elbwgreez

03-02-2009, 07:36 PM

ogenoct

03-02-2009, 07:38 PM

Warka

03-02-2009, 07:46 PM

Now the Census doesn't track religion, but the accepted percentage of the US population is roughly 1.6% Jewish. So taking the military age population of the US in 1940 at roughly 30 million, and the US Jewish military figure of just over 1/2 million... almost every Jewish person of militia age was serving during World War II."

lol? ...............

Starr

03-02-2009, 07:52 PM

Yes, in this respect they are no different than most other White ethnic groups. Also, most Russians and Greeks would also argue that they have a right to exist as Russians and Greeks and not as Whites. In what way are Jews different than other White ethnic groups? Where is the evidence that most jews "hate White/European culture/race"? Do you have reliable statistics? All the Jews I know do not hate European culture. On the contrary, they are all of the intellectual type and very much admire European literature and philosophy. How many White gentiles today say that White people have a right to exist? Not many. Again, why single out the Jews?

Yes, one can be proud to be anything as long as they let go of any ideas about native ancestory and actual kinship with like people. The reaction in this story is a pretty good example of what I am trying to get at:

OUTRAGE was sparked yesterday after thousands of people in Wales told a poll they believe you have to be white to be truly Welsh.

http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?p=639536&highlight=ignorant#post639536

You have to be white to truly be Welsh. Whoever heard of such an idea?:whip:

People suggest later in the article that one would have to be ignorant to hold this belief. You can be proud of your "nation" and "people" if nation and people includes anyone who happens to live on the same soil as you. If you look at a person from the darkest part of Africa, whose parents hopped on a boat and came over unwanted, as being just as much a part of your nation as others who are actually native to the area whose people go back through the generations.

There is a world of diference between white liberal and/or anti racist types and jews. The former are true believers in the notion that there is only one people, "the human race." Jews preach this idea for others while firmly holding on to their own identity as one united special people whose interests come before that of anyone else. Abe Foxman himself not too long ago said something that shows this mindset quite well. He said that the ADL is both a "human rights" organization and a Jewish organization and when those two things come into conflict, they will side with jews. How many white liberals or anti racists would not only think in these terms, but actually say something like this in regards to their fellow white gentiles(and be allowed to get away with it, with their status as "human rights activist" still intact?)

Insert witty user name here

03-02-2009, 09:08 PM

Bulan

03-02-2009, 11:35 PM

lol? ...............

Lol?

LOL???

Neg rep me all you want, it will not change the facts.
What I posted is true, and you sir, are a d-bag.

That is all.

Warka

03-03-2009, 01:15 AM

Lol?

LOL???

Neg rep me all you want, it will not change the facts.
What I posted is true, and you sir, are a d-bag.

That is all.

Right, because "Ze'ev" on the Internets said so.

lol?

Dan Dare

03-03-2009, 04:52 AM

Ashkenazi Jews are basically Germanic Jews since they originated in Southern Germany. They even spoke a Germanic language, Yiddish. Hence, Ashkenazi Jews had more in common with the original White settler population in America, the English and the Germans, than Sephardic Jews.

Ashkenazi Jews like Sephardi Jews originated in the Levant. While the latter made their way to the Iberian peninsula via North Africa, the former accompanied the Romans into the Rhineland.

Following the expulsions of 1492, Sephardis moved back to North Africa, as well into Italy the Ottoman Empire and, eventually to the new world via Holland and England. Ashkenazi in the meantime were driven further and further east, eventually congregating in the Pale of Settlement.

The interesting thing is that once the Ashkenazi started to migrate west again as a result of pogroms in the late 19C, they were considered by the settled (ie Sephardi) Jews in Prussia, Britain and America as undesirable and unassimilable Ostjuden.

There is no significant genetic difference between Sephardi and Ashkenazi, the latter are certainly not more Germanic simply because they adopted a bastardized form of Low German for their lingua franca.

Transcendentally Challenged

03-03-2009, 06:03 AM

Since when have a lot of Jews been in battle outside of Israel? The US has the largest population of Jews in the world and they rarely serve in active duty. They prefer to infest elsewhere.

You are out of line here. Way out of line.

Jewish soldiers were some of the bravest in the Eastern front. Where do you think the bulk of Israeli army came from with its educated commanders? Eastern front.

Transcendentally Challenged

03-03-2009, 06:10 AM

And you can’t seem to understand that their “bravery” was for the communist government of the Soviet Union and it was that same communist government who declared these Jews to be brave. So what brave things did these Jewish communist do, did they shoot the Russian soldiers who failed to attack, did they round up the Russian soldiers families and put them in Gulags, did they confiscated the land and property of the people whose countries they invaded.

Tank Army Marshall Katukov, for example, was awarded the hero of the Soviet Union twice - for his leadership in Lvov-Sandomierz and East Pomeran operations.

There were 39 jews-privates, who became Heroes of the Soviet Union.
Junior officers - 71
Senior officers - 39
Generals - 6
Civilian leading resistance movement - 1

45 of them were awarded post mortem, having fallen in battle.

157 Heroes overall.

If we compare demographics, then only Russians had a bigger amount of Heroes of the Soviet Union compared to the whole population, than jews.

ogenoct

03-03-2009, 02:12 PM

Translation:

"To German mothers!

12,000 Jewish soldiers died for the Fatherland on the field of honor

Christian and Jewish heroes fought together and rest together in foreign soil.

12,000 Jews were killed in battle!

Mindless party hatred does not even stop at the graves of the dead.

German women, do not tolerate that the Jewish mother is mocked in her pain.

Reich Federation of Jewish Front Soldiers"

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l130/fritzmaster18/1920_poster_12000_Jewish_soldiers_K.jpg

Kostya Novoselov

03-03-2009, 04:48 PM

Tank Army Marshall Katukov, for example, was awarded the hero of the Soviet Union twice - for his leadership in Lvov-Sandomierz and East Pomeran operations.

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Katukov):

Mikhail Efimovich Katukov (Михаил Ефимович Катуков) served as a commander of armored troops in the Red Army during and following World War II. He is viewed as one of the most talented Soviet armor commanders.

Mikhail Efimovich Katukov entered the Red Army as a private in 1919… In the defense of Moscow in 1941, it was Katukov's 4th Tank Brigade, part of the 1st Guards Rifle Corps, that checked the advance of Guderian's Panzergruppe 2 near Tula… In the battle of Kursk, Katukov's command was one of the two armies that were hardest-hit by the initial German advance on the southern shoulder. Through the use of well-defended and sited strong-points, dug in tanks, and judicious use of counter attacks, Katukov managed to extract a high toll from the German attackers breaking through the defensive system.

ogenoct

03-03-2009, 06:45 PM

Who does Ogenoct think these white Ashkenazi Jews will side with when push comes to shove? White gentiles or Sephardim?

White gentiles, of course. Most Ashkenzi Jews view themselves as Europeans who happen to be Jewish. In Israel, the Ashkenazi Jews despise the Sephardic Jews. Hannah Arendt, an Ashkenazi Jew herself, said the following about the participants in the Eichmann trial: "On top, the judges, the best of German Jewry. Below them, the prosecuting attorneys, Galicians, but still Europeans. Everything is organized by a police force that gives me the creeps, speaks only Hebrew and looks Arabic. Some downright brutal types among them. They would follow any order. And . . . the oriental mob, as if one were in Istanbul or some other half-Asiatic country. In addition, and very visible in Jerusalem, the peies and caftan Jews, who make life impossible for all reasonable people here."

Empress Cheesatine

03-03-2009, 07:08 PM

White gentiles, of course. Most Ashkenzi Jews view themselves as Europeans who happen to be Jewish. In Israel, the Ashkenazi Jews despise the Sephardic Jews. Hannah Arendt, an Ashkenazi Jew herself, said the following about the participants in the Eichmann trial: "On top, the judges, the best of German Jewry. Below them, the prosecuting attorneys, Galicians, but still Europeans. Everything is organized by a police force that gives me the creeps, speaks only Hebrew and looks Arabic. Some downright brutal types among them. They would follow any order. And . . . the oriental mob, as if one were in Istanbul or some other half-Asiatic country. In addition, and very visible in Jerusalem, the peies and caftan Jews, who make life impossible for all reasonable people here."

I'm not seeing any particular kind of affinity for Europe coming from Ashkenazi Jews. Who do Jewish activist groups support, other Jews, be they Falashi or Sephardic, or the average European white? Racism among Jewry is not uncommon, however its not proof that they feel more loyalty to non-Jewish whites than to darker-hued Jews. Blacks have the same attitude with the variations of skin tones in their own community, but when push comes to shove, they're all black, and they stick together like ass cheeks.

Empress Cheesatine

03-03-2009, 07:09 PM

You are out of line here. Way out of line.

Jewish soldiers were some of the bravest in the Eastern front. Where do you think the bulk of Israeli army came from with its educated commanders? Eastern front.

Yes, I forget about the philosemitic early years of the USSR.

ogenoct

03-03-2009, 07:55 PM

Yes, I forget about the philosemitic early years of the USSR.

Stalin's reign was hardly marked by Philosemitism.

ogenoct

03-03-2009, 08:02 PM

I'm not seeing any particular kind of affinity for Europe coming from Ashkenazi Jews.

Have you ever been to Israel?

Starr

03-03-2009, 10:45 PM

Jews and jewish groups not only can be counted on to side with other jews over white Europeans, they can be counted on to side with ANYONE over white europeans.(and they also do a lot more than merely side with them, of course). Blacks, hispanics/illegal immigrants,etc. For people who supposedly have an affinity for white Europeans, they surely seem to support, endorse and promote anything that involves breaking up the dominance of White folk, demographically, culturally,etc. Where are you seeing evidence of something different, ogenoct? I don't care how jews live or think in Israel, Divisions that exist among jews in their own nation are an entirely different matter. The situation does not require them to be as free from inner group conflicts, prejudices,etc. for one. And as cheesypie already said this suggests nothing about how these inner group conflicts would translate into them siding with people outside their group. There is more evidence to the contrary than not. The ones that have the greatest impact on us and our situation are the ones living in our nations and they are joined at the hip with one another.

Transcendentally Challenged

03-04-2009, 05:00 AM

Yes, I forget about the philosemitic early years of the USSR.

That's not what I responded to.

You tried to diminish Jewish role in the Eastern Front.

I pretty much don't care about what you say about modern Israel or diaspora, but I don't like when people spit on the graves of those who fought and died side by side with my own relatives.

Empress Cheesatine

03-04-2009, 08:02 AM

That's not what I responded to.

You tried to diminish Jewish role in the Eastern Front.

I pretty much don't care about what you say about modern Israel or diaspora, but I don't like when people spit on the graves of those who fought and died side by side with my own relatives.

Tried to diminish? No, and you're merely assuming that was my intent. I seriously doubt "lots" of Jews enlisted anywhere. I've yet to see them enlist in the same proportions of their population that white gentiles do. Jews in active service in the US military are a drop in the bucket. Jews in civilian positions and as lobbyists in Washington are a dime a dozen.

As far as your other comment goes, its a bit silly. I had relatives on the eastern front as well, in the Waffen SS, and I can't imagine you'd do anything other than spit on their graves and on those they fought and died with.

Empress Cheesatine

03-04-2009, 08:04 AM

Have you ever been to Israel?

Why would I waste my money going there?

Angler

03-04-2009, 08:34 AM

This issue is very, very simple, and no amount of ludicrous "Jews are our white brothers!" propaganda is going to fool anyone with a brain.

Because Jews are highly inbred, they can perhaps be viewed as a kind of Caucasian subrace. But regardless of how they are racially classified, Jews see themselves as a nation separate from other people, including whites. This is shown in part by the sheer number of Jewish political organizations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conference_of_Presidents_of_Major_American_Jewish_Organizations

Or we can ask the obvious: If Jews consider themselves to be the brothers of non-Jewish whites, then why are Jews alone considered eligible for automatic Israeli citizenship?

Jews work for the interests of their own nation, and they frequently do so at the expense of non-Jewish whites.

Transcendentally Challenged

03-04-2009, 09:30 AM

Tried to diminish? No, and you're merely assuming that was my intent. I seriously doubt "lots" of Jews enlisted anywhere. I've yet to see them enlist in the same proportions of their population that white gentiles do. Jews in active service in the US military are a drop in the bucket. Jews in civilian positions and as lobbyists in Washington are a dime a dozen.

As far as your other comment goes, its a bit silly. I had relatives on the eastern front as well, in the Waffen SS, and I can't imagine you'd do anything other than spit on their graves and on those they fought and died with.

Yadda-yadda. Your ms. know-it-all attitude is getting old, change a tune.

I don't spit on the memory of soldiers. But I do bear little respect for rapists and killers of civilians, who were on both sides.

Longinus

03-04-2009, 11:28 AM

The article is propaganda.

Real Jews from the streets of Warsaw ghetto appear slightly Asiatic like Tatars and Turks. Some even appear as they are distantly intermixed with blacks. For propaganda purposes Jews of the internet display only those Jews intermixed with Nordic race.

Warka

03-04-2009, 12:01 PM

White?

4l0u-GqDSro

Empress Cheesatine

03-04-2009, 06:13 PM

Yadda-yadda. Your ms. know-it-all attitude is getting old, change a tune.

It has nothing to do with my attitude, I literally haven't seen large percentages of Jews relative to their population enlist in militaries, and apparently you have no clue either considering your response. Jewish participation in the US military is dismal.

http://www.jewishjournal.com/community_briefs/article/the_very_few_the_proud_20031114/

"Only some 3,000 out of 1.4 million active duty servicemen and women are Jewish, about two-tenths of one percent. When it comes to Marines, the numbers are even more startling. It's one out of 1,000. One-tenth of one percent. That gives new meaning to the term "minority."

I don't spit on the memory of soldiers. But I do bear little respect for rapists and killers of civilians, who were on both sides.

I agree on this, so what are you bickering about? Do you think I celebrate the deaths of white people? (Mudsharks don't count and neither do Jews.)

harjit

03-04-2009, 06:23 PM

I agree on this, so what are you bickering about? Do you think I celebrate the deaths of white people? (Mudsharks don't count and neither do Jews.)
I'm surprised that mudsharks and Jews are the first whites that pop to your mind to exclude from the no-dancing-on-white-graves rule.

Before even murderers, rapists, child-molesters... even all the former Communist Bloc dictators you probably despise.

ogenoct

03-05-2009, 07:02 PM

http://www.amren.com/interviews/donahue/20030210/

DONAHUE: How are you with the Jews? Are you OK, the Jews?

TAYLOR: The Jews? The Jews are fine by me.

DONAHUE: And so Jews can live in your neighborhood and to go your cocktail party with all those good looking people?

TAYLOR: They look white to me.

How are you with the jews?

Empress Cheesatine

03-07-2009, 04:20 AM

http://www.amren.com/interviews/donahue/20030210/

Some look white, and so do some Mestizos and Palestinians.

ogenoct

03-07-2009, 10:46 AM

from: http://www.forward.com/articles/10985/

The statistical portrait of American Jews, however, shows that those who are “Jews by religion” overwhelmingly categorize themselves as “white” and “non-Hispanic.” While it is true that the trends are changing as a result of intermarriage, adoption and conversion, nonetheless the proportion of non-whites and Hispanics among the adult population that is “Jews by religion” remains under 10%.

So “Jewish” — a category that became completely “white” in the American racial categorization — is beginning to broaden to include a wider range of racial and ethnic options, among other characteristics. The contours of American Jewishness are changing. Will the collective tent be big enough to include us all in our many colors and other combinations?

Joe McCarthy

03-08-2009, 01:26 AM

I question oge's claim that most Israeli Jews are Ashkenazim. I have reason to believe otherwise as the numbers were shifting at the beginning of Barak's tenure. Perhaps he has proof.

I'll say that this thread highlights again the danger of defining identity solely in terms of race. There are other factors involved, including civilizational. The Finns for example are probably less genetically akin to most Europeans than are Ashkenazi Jews, yet we consider them to be part of 'us' because they are a part of the general European continuum. Their prolonged contact with Sweden facilitated this. Conversely, Ashkenazi Jews remain a people apart, and it is due at least in part to self-conceptualization. They identify with other Jews over white Europeans. Jewry can also be said to constitute its own civilization; a fact that some academics note.

At bottom, a people's identity is based on a confluence of factors, including shared historical memory, a common bond, and a shared sense that 'we' are in this together. The Jews have especially strong ties in these areas, and they share them TOGETHER, not with 'us'.

ogenoct

03-08-2009, 11:33 AM

I question oge's claim that most Israeli Jews are Ashkenazim. I have reason to believe otherwise as the numbers were shifting at the beginning of Barak's tenure. Perhaps he has proof.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Ethnic_groups

Ashkenazim (about 38% of the national population): Jews whose ancestors came from Germany, France, and Eastern Europe. Most Ashkenazi Jews that settled in Israel were from Russia, Poland, Romania, Ukraine, Germany, Hungary, Czech Republic, North America, South America, South Africa and Australia.

They identify with other Jews over white Europeans.

This is not true. Ashkenazi Jews in Israel identify with other White Europeans over Sephardic Jews.

Joe McCarthy

03-08-2009, 11:37 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Ethnic_groups

38% is most eh?

This is not true. Ashkenazi Jews in Israel identify with other White Europeans over Sephardic Jews.

I hope you provide better evidence for this claim.

ogenoct

03-08-2009, 11:41 AM

38% is most eh?

Yes, compared to the percentages of the other groups.

I hope you provide better evidence for this claim.

Why should I? Where is the evidence for your claim?

Joe McCarthy

03-08-2009, 11:47 AM

So then the Ashkenazim are a plurality? That doesn't make them a majority.

Putting aside any in depth argument I could make, I'll note that it would seem reasonable to surmise that if the Ashkenazim identified with white Europeans over the Sephardim, they would have stayed in Europe. No?

Angler

03-08-2009, 11:57 AM

Putting aside any in depth argument I could make, I'll note that it would seem reasonable to surmise that if the Ashkenazim identified with white Europeans over the Sephardim, they would have stayed in Europe. No?Exactly. It really is just that simple.

Not only that, but why aren't non-Jewish European whites granted automatic Israeli citizenship like Jews are if Israelis (at least most of them) identify so strongly with non-Jewish whites?

Ogenoct, your claims are indefensible and downright laughable.

ogenoct

03-08-2009, 12:08 PM

This woman is clearly NOT White!:

http://media.monstersandcritics.com/galleries/1199355/0134486550085.jpg

Joe McCarthy

03-08-2009, 12:14 PM

At this point I think we've dispensed with the racial aspect. The question is still left begging though.

Angler

03-08-2009, 12:24 PM

This woman is clearly NOT White!Is she Jewish? If so, then it doesn't matter how white she looks; she's a member of a tribe that considers itself to be completely separate from non-Jewish whites. Period.

ogenoct

03-08-2009, 03:38 PM

Is she Jewish? If so, then it doesn't matter how white she looks; she's a member of a tribe that considers itself to be completely separate from non-Jewish whites. Period.

Not true. Period. Most Jews in America view themselves as part of the the White majority, and the White majority views Jews as being a part of them. It does not matter if you pretend that this is not the case. Period. Jews are White. Deal with it. Period. Yes, she is Jewish and obviously White. Only a complete idiot would say otherwise. She was Leonardo Di Caprio's girlfriend. Would you kick her out of your bed because of the absurd Nuremberg race laws? Why did the Jews in Nazi Germany have to wear a yellow star and change their names, so that they could be identified as Jews? Answer: Because most Jews in Germany were indistinguishable from non-Jewish Germans. German Jews are Germans. Period.

ogenoct

03-08-2009, 03:59 PM

from: http://racialreality.110mb.com/jews.html

White Supremacists find it convenient to consider Jews a single race that's entirely distinct from European races. Recently, some Jews have also adopted this view, albeit for different reasons. The reality is that Jews are composed of many different subracial elements, generally reflecting those found in surrounding non-Jewish populations. Hence, both phenotypically and genetically, the Ashkenazim show affinities with Europeans, while the Sephardim are more similar to the original Hebrews and other populations of the Middle East.

Joe McCarthy

03-08-2009, 04:17 PM

My question, ogenoct.

If given the choice would an American Ashkenazi Jew favor giving Israeli citizenship to a WASP or a Sephardic Jew from Yemen?

ogenoct

03-08-2009, 04:32 PM

If given the choice would an American Ashkenazi Jew favor giving Israeli citizenship to a WASP or a Sephardic Jew from Yemen?

To the Sephardic Jew, of course. Israel is a Jewish state after all. However, this changes nothing. Many White Catholics also prefer to mingle with black Catholics rather than White Jews or Baptists.

Angler

03-08-2009, 04:38 PM

Not true. Period. Most Jews in America view themselves as part of the the White majority...Absolute bullshit. Jews in America view themselves as Jews. This is why Jews tend to marry other Jews, join and/or contribute to Jewish organizations, send their kids to Jewish summer camps, and generally maintain their tribal ties.

...and the White majority views Jews as being a part of them.This is true for the most part, but it's the result of ignorance on the part of the white majority. Most whites think that Jews are "just whites with a different religion" and have no clue about how Jews engage in ethnic warfare.

It does not matter if you pretend that this is not the case. Period. Jews are White. Deal with it. Period. Yes, she is Jewish and obviously White. Only a complete idiot would say otherwise.She looks white, but she's part of a tribe that considers itself separate from non-Jewish whites. If Jews didn't consider themselves separate, why would Jews who don't subscribe to Judaism refer to themselves as "Jews" at all? Or what is the basis of the Jewish identity of secular Jews? Answer me that one.

She was Leonardo Di Caprio's girlfriend.Am I supposed to give a hoot?

Would you kick her out of your bed because of the absurd Nuremberg race laws?I've fucked attractive Jewish women. That doesn't make them gentiles.

Why did the Jews in Nazi Germany have to wear a yellow star and change their names, so that they could be identified as Jews? Answer: Because most Jews in Germany were indistinguishable from non-Jewish Germans. German Jews are Germans. Period.Once again, you're assuming that just because Jews look white, they must be the same as other whites. Again I ask: If this is the case, then on what basis do secular Jews call themselves "Jews"? Or what is the difference between a secular Jew and a secular white person like myself?

Also, you keep failing to answer the question about Israeli citizenship. If there's no difference between Jews and white gentiles in the minds of Jews, and we're all brothers, then WHY don't white gentiles get automatic Israeli citizenship just as Jews do?

guy

03-08-2009, 04:50 PM

Not true. Period. Most Jews in America view themselves as part of the the White majority, and the White majority views Jews as being a part of them. It does not matter if you pretend that this is not the case. Period. Jews are White. Deal with it. Period. Yes, she is Jewish and obviously White. Only a complete idiot would say otherwise.
I'd say she's White, but I don't think web entities need to deal with it if they prefer not to. I also don't think that only an idiot would say otherwise. A non-idiot could say otherwise for political reasons.

Jews are a borderline mixed White/Middle-Eastern population. Add the political motivation for considering them non-White, and you get what we have here. Claiming that the chick you posted is non White is a bit off the chain, but this is the internet.

guy

03-08-2009, 04:53 PM

Absolute bullshit. Jews in America view themselves as Jews. This is why Jews tend to marry other Jews
Can you back this up with statistics?

I've fucked attractive Jewish women. That doesn't make them gentiles.

Notice how White turns into Gentile for the point to stand, though.

ogenoct

03-08-2009, 04:53 PM

This is why Jews tend to marry other Jews

Not true. The majority of Jews in the US marry non-Jews.

from: http://www.cedarlane.org/96serms/s961208.html

The percentage of Jews marrying non-Jews in the United States has risen from about 6% in 1960 to more than 60% in the 1990s.

from: http://www.aish.com/shmooze/intermarriage_and_jewish_identity.asp

The rate of intermarriage is high these days. More than 50% of the Jews in the United States who got married in the past decade married out of their faith. 700,000 Jewish kids are being raised in other religions.

Most whites think that Jews are "just whites with a different religion" and have no clue about how Jews engage in ethnic warfare.

Ridiculous. How do they "engage in ethnic warfare"?

Again I ask: If this is the case, then on what basis do secular Jews call themselves "Jews"? Or what is the difference between a secular Jew and a secular white person like myself?

Jews are an ethnic group, like Germans or Poles.

If there's no difference between Jews and white gentiles in the minds of Jews, and we're all brothers, then WHY don't white gentiles get automatic Israeli citizenship just as Jews do?

Because Israel is a Jewish state. It has nothing to do with race. It is all about religion. Again, most Ashkenazi Jews in Israel view themselves as Europeans who happen to be Jewish.

ogenoct

03-08-2009, 04:59 PM

Claiming that the chick you posted is non White is a bit off the chain, but this is the internet.

I was being sarcastic.

guy

03-08-2009, 05:04 PM

I was being sarcastic.
I am cognizant of this. I was talking about other people.

Kriger

03-08-2009, 05:12 PM

Angler

03-08-2009, 05:18 PM

Not true. The majority of Jews in the US marry non-Jews.

from: http://www.cedarlane.org/96serms/s961208.html

from: http://www.aish.com/shmooze/intermarriage_and_jewish_identity.aspOkay, perhaps the trend has increased. But that doesn't change the fact that those who identify as Jews, at least in any strong sense, see themselves as separate from non-Jewish whites. The immigration policies of the state of Israel are proof of this.

It's also interesting to note that your own links are to articles that undermine your claim that Jews think of themselves as part of the white majority. Why would intermarriage be an issue at all if Jews didn't consider themselves to be a part of distinct group? Is intermarriage between Americans of Polish and German descent an issue for American Poles and Germans?

Ridiculous. How do they "engage in ethnic warfare"?That has been covered about a billion times on this board. But very briefly:

-- they use their lobby and political positions to subvert US foreign policy in favor of Israel at US expense
-- they have a history of promoting multiculturalism and other leftist causes in the US while hypocritically insisting that Israel remain uniquely Jewish

Jews are an ethnic group, like Germans or Poles.Does Germany or Poland grant special immigration rights to a certain group of people? Is intermarriage an issue of contention between people of German and Polish descent who live outside of those countries? How many German and Polish lobbies are at work in D.C.? How big and active are they? Does there exist a Polish or German analogue of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations?

Because Israel is a Jewish state. It has nothing to do with race. It is all about religion.Utter bullshit. Many if not most Israeli Jews are secular, and in any case it's a FACT that one need not follow Judaism to be granted automatic Israel citizenship -- as long as one has a Jewish mother.

Again, most Ashkenazi Jews in Israel view themselves as Europeans who happen to be Jewish.More bullshit. If they viewed themselves as Europeans, they would not have moved to Israel.

guy

03-08-2009, 05:18 PM

According to Muscle Power there is some type of class distinction going on with a racial basis. His father is Ashkenazim from Russia, his mother is Sephardi from the Middle East. He said the Ashkenazi have the most privileges in Israel while the Sephardi have more limited rights. The Ethiopians have the least amount of rights.

Don't know for sure what these rights amount to...something to do with residence, occupation....not sure. Muscle Power could fill in the blanks. Anyway it's based on "Whiteness" but the Whiteness is viewed from within a Jewish context.
The discrepancy between the Ashkenazim and Mizrahim ("Sephardim") in Israel is a result of cultural, historical, and dare I say genetic differences between the groups. The same principles that apply to other multi-cultural societies apply to Israel.

Petr

03-08-2009, 05:20 PM

It's also interesting to note that one of your own links is to an article that undermines your claim that Jews think of themselves as part of the white majority. Why would intermarriage be an issue at all if Jews didn't consider themselves to be a part of distinct group? Is intermarriage between Americans of Polish and German descent an issue for American Poles and Germans?
Traditional Roman Catholics are quite concerned about the number of RCs marrying outside their faith.

Petr

ogenoct

03-08-2009, 05:20 PM

Does Germany or Poland grant special immigration rights to a certain group of people?

Yes. For example, Germany grants Volga Germans from Russia the right to immigrate. How is that different from what Israel practices?

guy

03-08-2009, 05:23 PM

Okay, perhaps the trend has increased. But that doesn't change the fact that those who identify as Jews, at least in any strong sense, see themselves as separate from non-Jewish whites.
http://www.jfcsports.co.uk/acatalog/Fbl056a(600x481).jpg

Angler

03-08-2009, 05:24 PM

Traditional Roman Catholics are quite concerned about the number of RCs marrying outside their faith.It's understandable that people of strong religious beliefs would be concerned about marrying "outside of the faith." But why would secular Jews care about Jews marrying non-Jewish whites?

ogenoct

03-08-2009, 05:26 PM

Okay, perhaps the trend has increased.

Question: Why has the trend increased if Jews supposedly have such strong ethnic loyalties?

Angler

03-08-2009, 05:27 PM

http://www.jfcsports.co.uk/acatalog/Fbl056a(600x481).jpgHardy har har. It's not as if my entirely argument depends on intermarriage rates.

Joe McCarthy

03-08-2009, 05:28 PM

To the Sephardic Jew, of course. Israel is a Jewish state after all. However, this changes nothing. Many White Catholics also prefer to mingle with black Catholics rather than White Jews or Baptists.

We are dealing with a question of identity. Let that be clear. Whether a 'white' Jew identifies as white is irrelevant if his foremost identity is as a Jew. I will submit that while many white Catholics (and we know how weak racial feeling among our people is these days) will prefer to mingle with a black Catholic, many, if not most will prefer the company of a white Protestant. Contrast that with the Ashkenazi Jew who will select the Sephardic for Israeli citizenship over the WASP EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Moreover, we can draw an analogy with white Muslims. Many Kurds are white, yet they surely identify with the overwhelming non-white Ummah over an Englishman. I hope your next thread isn't 'Kurds are white!' followed by demands we accept them into the fold. It would clearly be preposterous, and unlike the Jews, the kurds at least have the advantage of being Indo-Europeans.

As I noted in a previous post in this thread, race cannot be the sole factor in determining identity. There are other factors - factors which make Jews an outgroup.

ogenoct

03-08-2009, 05:28 PM

-- they have a history of promoting multiculturalism and other leftist causes in the US while hypocritically insisting that Israel remain uniquely Jewish

Israel is a multicultural hellhole as well, by the way. Neo-liberalism and notions of racial suicide are just as rampant there as they are in Europe and AmeriKa. Hence, the ridiculous claim that Jews advocate purity for their own but mixing for others does not hold water. Plus, the majority of Jews in Europe and AmeriKa marry gentiles, hence they do not stick to themselves in most cases. I doubt that most Jews act the way they do for ideological reasons, as people like Kevin MacDonald claim. Just like White gentiles, some Jews are mostly after money and power. Simply put: THERE IS NO JEWISH CONSPIRACY.

Kriger

03-08-2009, 05:29 PM

The discrepancy between the Ashkenazim and Mizrahim ("Sephardim") in Israel is a result of cultural, historical, and dare I say genetic differences between the groups. The same principles that apply to other multi-cultural societies apply to Israel.

Thanks for filling in the blanks, guy. And for pointing out the truth that similar distinctions apply to any multi-racial, multi-cultural, or multi-ethnic society. It is certainly not unique to either Israel or Judaism for that matter.

Joe McCarthy

03-08-2009, 05:30 PM

According to Muscle Power there is some type of class distinction going on with a racial basis. His father is Ashkenazim from Russia, his mother is Sephardi from the Middle East. He said the Ashkenazi have the most privileges in Israel while the Sephardi have more limited rights. The Ethiopians have the least amount of rights.

Don't know for sure what these rights amount to...something to do with residence, occupation....not sure. Muscle Power could fill in the blanks. Anyway it's based on "Whiteness" but the Whiteness is viewed from within a Jewish context.

This is true. In sociology it is called a 'color gradient'. It even exists in Puerto Rico ranging from near whites to near blacks with the former on top. Jack Bernstein discusses Ashkenazi racism in 'An American Jew in Racist Marxist Israel'.

guy

03-08-2009, 05:30 PM

It's understandable that people of strong religious beliefs would be concerned about marrying "outside of the faith." But why would secular Jews care about Jews marrying non-Jewish whites?
Because in addition to religion, there is an ethnic, cultural, historical, and national tie between Jews. In the past, Italian Americans preferred to marry Italians. Greek Americans preferred to marry Greeks. Today -- not so much.

ogenoct

03-08-2009, 05:31 PM

Whether a 'white' Jew identifies as white is irrelevant if his foremost identity is as a Jew.

It is absolutely relevant. Most Germans would identify themselves as Germans first and not "White." A German's foremost identity is as a German. Why do you apply different standards to Jews than you would to other White ethnic groups?

Petr

03-08-2009, 05:31 PM

It's understandable that people of strong religious beliefs would be concerned about marrying "outside of the faith." But why would secular Jews care about Jews marrying non-Jewish whites?
I actually think that most really secular Jews do not mind intermarriage that much. Most Jews that are dead against it are either Orthodox or Conservative Jews.

The Reform Jews are these days not so much trying to stop intermarriage itself as to convert the gentile spouses, and even Conservatives are starting to get soft:

Concerned about what intermarriage is doing to American Judaism, Rabbi Eric H. Yoffie, president of the Union for Reform Judaism, the organization of the country's Reform Jewish congregations, recently called for Reform synagogues to increase their efforts to convert non-Jewish spouses. By welcoming and accepting gentile spouses, Reform congregations have "perhaps sent the message that we do not care if they convert," Rabbi Yoffie said at the union's most recent conference, in November.
...

Reform Jews are not alone in their efforts. A month after Rabbi Yoffie's comments, Rabbi Jerome M. Epstein, the leader of the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, made a similar call, urging Conservative Jews as well to be more aggressive in seeking converts among non-Jewish spouses. Together, Reform and Conservative Jews make up a majority of Jews in the United States.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/12/nyregion/12convert.html?ei=5088&en=cc43c6fcd96fb12a&ex=1297400400&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&pagewanted=print

Petr

ogenoct

03-08-2009, 05:33 PM

to convert the gentile spouses

Who then cease to be White.

guy

03-08-2009, 05:35 PM

Hardy har har. It's not as if my entirely argument depends on intermarriage rates.
Your other points may or may not be valid, but your point about the intermarriage rates depends on the fact that you were talking about Jews, and not about 50% (or so) of Jews.

Angler

03-08-2009, 05:38 PM

Yes. For example, Germany grants Volga Germans from Russia the right to immigrate. How is that different from what Israel practices?It's different because it's an isolated policy that deals only with a specific group of Germans whose recent ancestors were expelled from Germany but retained their German culture. Israel has a blanket policy that pertains to ALL people who can claim descent from a Jewish mother, even if they haven't had ancestors living in the Middle East for centuries.

Angler

03-08-2009, 05:41 PM

Because in addition to religion, there is an ethnic, cultural, historical, and national tie between Jews.Thank you! That is exactly what I've been trying to get Ogenoct to admit.

These ties form the basis of the Jewish tribe, and they are the reason why Jews do not think of themselves as "just like other whites."

guy

03-08-2009, 05:43 PM

Thank you! That is exactly what I've been trying to get Ogenoct to admit.

These ties are the backbone of the Jewish tribe, and they are the reason why Jews do not think of themselves as "just like other whites."
True for some Jews. Not for others. The problem is that the former group tends to hold all the political power.

Angler

03-08-2009, 05:55 PM

True for some Jews. Not for others. The problem is that the former group tends to hold all the political power.I freely admit that Jews are not monolithic and that level of ethnic consciousness varies among Jews. Most of the condemnation of Jews you hear may sound rather uniform, but it's primarily directed at those -- however many there may be -- who view themselves as a separate nation in conflict with those outside.

I don't have a problem with Jews like Alfred Lilienthal, the Neturei Karta, or others who seem to have no desire to see their tribe engage in scheming against non-Jews. But it's blatantly obvious that many Jews are strongly ethnocentric and are constantly engaged in all manner of political subterfuge directed toward serving Jewish ends -- especially promoting the interests of Israel and pushing for multiculturalism and other leftist causes in Western countries. Most recently, the neoconservative ideology that has completely taken over the GOP is as Jewish as Jewish gets.

guy

03-08-2009, 06:22 PM

I freely admit that Jews are not monolithic and that level of ethnic consciousness varies among Jews. Most of the condemnation of Jews you hear may sound rather uniform, but it's primarily directed at those -- however many there may be -- who view themselves as a separate nation in conflict with those outside.

I don't have a problem with Jews like Alfred Lilienthal, the Neturei Karta, or others who seem to have no desire to see their tribe engage in scheming against non-Jews. But it's blatantly obvious that many Jews are strongly ethnocentric and are constantly engaged in all manner of political subterfuge directed toward serving Jewish ends -- especially promoting the interests of Israel and pushing for multiculturalism and other leftist causes in Western countries. Most recently, the neoconservative ideology that has completely taken over the GOP is as Jewish as Jewish gets.
Considering the assclowned Neturei Karta to be a proper example of "good Jews" makes it look like you consider 90% of the Jews to be scheming anti-Gentile loons, though. Which is fine, but is not my opinion.

Joe McCarthy

03-08-2009, 06:29 PM

It is absolutely relevant. Most Germans would identify themselves as Germans first and not "White." A German's foremost identity is as a German. Why do you apply different standards to Jews than you would to other White ethnic groups?

So let's see....you are comparing being German, an identity intrinsic to the white West, with being Jewish, an alien identity that contains many non-white elements and is historically both hostile to us and apart from us?

I doubt I need to continue....

guy

03-08-2009, 06:41 PM

It is absolutely relevant. Most Germans would identify themselves as Germans first and not "White." A German's foremost identity is as a German. Why do you apply different standards to Jews than you would to other White ethnic groups?
The problem, IMO, isn't with Israelis that strongly identify as Jews. It's with the American Jews that do, and that use their power in the US to promote (what they believe to be) Jewish causes. Most Americans with a German background don't consider themseleves to be Germans first. And this is how it should be. The same standards should apply to Jews, and indeed many Jews today finally let go of their tribalism. But you can't deny that other Jews still hold on to this tribalism (while clingling to the realms of power with their one free hand).

guy

03-09-2009, 01:42 AM

For the record, I should mention that some White Gentile groups (the Amish, Jehovah's witnesses) are fine, though.

ogenoct

03-09-2009, 07:43 PM

But you can't deny that other Jews still hold on to this tribalism (while clingling to the realms of power with their one free hand).

I agree, and I never said otherwise. The emphasis being on SOME Jews (as opposed to THE Jews).

Many Jews maintain that their ethnic group HAS to separate itself from ALL gentiles, be they White, yellow or black. Many European Jews do NOT see themselves as Whites since they feel ABSOLUTELY NO spiritual connection to European gentiles. Italians, on the other hand, surely feel somewhat bonded to their fellow Europeans. Many Jews see themselves as belonging to a completely separate entity, separated from the rest of humanity as a whole. Hence, many European Jews do not feel any connection whatsoever to European gentiles. However, these Jews see absolutely no problem in living in countries other than Israel (the Jews' ancestral homeland and rightful base of operations). Not only that, they also hold positions of considerable influence in politics and the media. Do these Jews (that view themselves as being irreconcilably apart from their host nations) then not constitute a treacherous entity, an alien element that OBVIOUSLY (according to these Jews' OWN ADMISSION) does not rule or sway opinions in favor of the majority?

One of the problems with some Jews in AmeriKa and Europe is that they vehemently promote ethnocentrism IN ISRAEL but are STAUNCHLY OPPOSED to ANY KIND of nationalism (= ethnocentrism) in European nations. This is what sets some Jews apart from Italians. Meaning, I have yet to meet Italian nationalists who are opposed to other European nationalists. Sad to say, but it must be pointed out, that if Jews are a part of the White race they surely are the ONLY White ethnic group that advocates nationalism FOR THEIR KIND while, at the same time, condemning it for other White ethnic groups. Some Jews in AmeriKa and Europe wish to see Israel survive as a "Jewish ETHNIC [as opposed to religious] state" while at the same CONDEMNING their WHITE HOST NATIONS trying to implement measures that would ensure THEIR survival.

Various European nationalists hate each other's guts. Jewish nationalism (Zionism) views itself as moral and "good" while it views European nationalism (of any variety) as immoral and "bad" (because of its supposed "xenophobic" nature - as if Zionists are not "xenophobic" as well!). So, while a Serbian nationalist may hate a Croatian nationalist, the former would surely never argue that the latter's nationalism is intrinsically "evil." Some Jews, though, do exactly that. They advocate nationalism for their people but discourage others from doing likewise.

Empress Cheesatine

03-09-2009, 08:20 PM

One of the problems with some Jews in AmeriKa and Europe is that they vehemently promote ethnocentrism IN ISRAEL but are STAUNCHLY OPPOSED to ANY KIND of nationalism (= ethnocentrism) in European nations. This is what sets some Jews apart from Italians. Meaning, I have yet to meet Italian nationalists who are opposed to other European nationalists. Sad to say, but it must be pointed out, that if Jews are a part of the White race they surely are the ONLY White ethnic group that advocates nationalism FOR THEIR KIND while, at the same time, condemning it for other White ethnic groups. Some Jews in AmeriKa and Europe wish to see Israel survive as a "Jewish ETHNIC [as opposed to religious] state" while at the same CONDEMNING their WHITE HOST NATIONS trying to implement measures that would ensure THEIR survival.

Its a lot more than "some." Its the large majority. Some Jews (few) support ethnic nationalism for white countries, such as the guys at the JTF. Very few Jews think like Chaim ben Pesach. This is one of the most obvious distinguishing features between European Jews and whites.

Btw, if having light skin makes Jews white, then I question as to why you so vehemently dislike Turks.

ogenoct

03-09-2009, 08:22 PM

This is one of the most obvious distinguishing features between European Jews and whites.

This is obviously nonsense since most European non-Jews are also opposed to ethnic nationalism for White countries.

Joe McCarthy

03-09-2009, 08:33 PM

One could probably make a better case for Turks really. Many of them are just warmed over Ionian Greeks racially.

'Turks are white!'

ogenoct

03-09-2009, 08:44 PM

'Turks are white!'

You can proclaim this all you want. Most Europeans would disagree with you. However, most Europeans (outside the nutty WN movement) would agree with me that Ashkenazi Jews are White.

Dan Dare

03-09-2009, 09:13 PM

Most Europeans don't think very much about whiteness as a concept, in the same way that Americans do. Deep ancestry, cultural affinity and religion are much more relevant for Europeans, and on these vectors Jews are commonly perceived as being 'different', even alien.

Many Jews may have pale complexions but they are never considered to be 'Descendants of European Christendom', which is really the defining characteristic of 'whiteness' in the European context.

ogenoct

03-09-2009, 09:46 PM

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/07/11/on-being-jewish-and-white/

On Being Jewish and White

Posted by: The Girl Detective in Anti-Semitism, Guest Blogging, Race & Ethnicity

I’ve written before on how angry I was when fellow progressives began to inform me that while some Jews consider themselves white, it’s only because they’ve assimilated into white culture. They never explained what white-looking Jews actually are, if not white, but the message was always clear: if we Ashkenazi (Eastern European) Jews think we’re white, well, it’s just because we wanted some of that tasty privilege so badly that we suppressed our real identity to get it. I’d known, of course, that many white extremists still considered Jewishness a race, but hearing such comments come from leftists surprised and upset me for a couple of reasons: 1) they were presuming to know more about a Jew’s identity than a Jew would, and 2) those who were people of color were surely familiar with the frustration at having others dictate how they should define themselves.

It was also one of the strongest indicators I got that the Left’s mistrust of Jews goes much deeper than the Palestine/Israel debate.

Before I go on, I should probably explain how the whiteness of American Ashkenazim came into question in the first place. European ethnicities weren’t separated into different races until the early 20th century, when massive immigration (of which my great-grandparents, with two-year-old grandmother in tow, were a part) to the United States caused a scare among the upper classes. Eugenicists like Madison Grant and Charles B. Davenport launched a deliberate campaign to equate class with race, conducting “research” to prove that southern and eastern Europeans, being genetically inferior to northwestern Europeans, were incapable of upward mobility. Jews, Italians, Irish, and other groups who had previously been white - albiet lower class - suddenly found themselves designated as races separate from the “Nordic” upper class.

After World War II, though, a few things shifted in Jews’ favor. More Jews joined the middle class while the idea of multiple European races began to fall out of fashion (although as Karen Brodkin, author of How Jews Became White Folks, points out, it’s impossible to tell which development influenced the other: “Did Jews and other Euro-ethnics become white because they became middle-class?… Or did being incorporated into an expanded version of whiteness open up the economic doors to middle-class status?”) The GI Bill served as Affirmative Action for previously oppressed white groups (while keeping the doors shut to people of color), giving them the means to attend college in greater numbers and enjoy the economic boom. Many Jewish families, terrified by the execution of the Rosenbergs, began to downplay their ethnic identity to avoid harassment and possible arrest. And by the time I was born, anyone from Europe - or, at least, anyone from Europe who looked the part - was white. Easy as pie.

I often hear that Jews “in general” have swarthy or olive skin, but that doesn’t apply to me. I look white. I am white. It’s not what I try to be, or long to be - it’s simply what I am. Whiteness defines my culture, my self-perception, my privilege, and my daily interactions; I’ve never known myself as anything else. My Jewishness has never been at odds with my whiteness. That’s why it’s so frustrating when my race is referred to as a conscious effort rather than a simple state of being. Does my entire culture and identity really mean that little?

To be clear, I know that not all Ashkenazim - especially older generations - identify as white. I’m speaking only for myself. The question of how members of the same ethnic group can identify as different races could open up some very useful discussions on what separates whiteness from nonwhiteness, the ways that race is constructed, and the many shifting, overlapping, and distinct cultures that are lumped together as white culture (that is, when white people recognize that we have culture). However, since I lack the expertise to do so myself, I’m sticking to my own perspective.

Here’s what’s really toxic about the idea that an Ashkenazi like me isn’t what she says she is: it paints us as infiltrators or spies, sneaking into white society so that we can get our hands on what doesn’t belong to us. From a white point of view, this turns us into something threatening, a presence that has to be identified and dealt with. (I still remember the anecdote a Jewish boyfriend’s mother told me: when they moved, their new neighbor felt it necessary to warn them that the family down the block was Jewish. “Well, we’ll fit right in,” my boyfriend’s mother responded. The neighbor didn’t speak to them again.) From a POC perspective, we suddenly seem like traitors or sellouts. Either way, it makes us seem as if we’re playing a permanent game of dress-up - never belonging, always infringing. You don’t need to be a white supremacist to fall prey to this mode of thinking.

Furthermore, the idea that Jews can’t be white - and its logical conclusion that Jewishness is its own race - completely erases Jews of color. How do you tell a Moroccan or Ethiopian Jew that Jewishness is a race? Which aspect of themselves are they expected to discard? Are people who deny the whiteness of Jews (and it’s always just “Jews” - they never specify Ashkenazim) even aware that Jews of color exist? How can we effectively confront white privilege within Jewish communities when potential allies dismiss that whiteness?

Shouldn’t each individual be allowed to define her/himself? Shouldn’t we trust each person to determine how their own identity is put together? Can you see why it’s so maddening to hear my identity dismissed as something I “consider myself” to be?

For another perspective on this issue, see Matthew Egan’s excellent essay “The Pintele Yid.”

Keep comments on-topic, please.

EDIT: Fixed a very embarrassing typo. “European” was supposed to say “Eastern European.”

Dan Dare

03-09-2009, 10:11 PM

^

the proposition that [Ashkenazi Jews] = NOT[Coloured] is not logically an equivalent function to [Ashkenazi Jews] = [White].

I'm using 'White' here in the sense of 'Descendant of European Christendom' rather than in the limited sense of skin-tone.

guy

03-10-2009, 12:00 AM

I'm using 'White' here in the sense of 'Descendant of European Christendom' rather than in the limited sense of skin-tone.
That would be circular logic, though. Kinda like saying that (say) Russians aren't White in the limited White = WASP sense. What is your source for the White = European Christendom sense?

Dan Dare

03-10-2009, 01:23 AM

That would be circular logic, though. Kinda like saying that (say) Russians aren't White in the limited White = WASP sense. What is your source for the White = European Christendom sense?

I'm not sure what the source for the phrase 'DoEC' but I first encountered it on Stormfront; it may have been penned by Yggdrasil but I'm uncertain.

I think you're taking slightly the wrong inference here. I'm not suggesting that DoEC = White, since that would clearly omit large numbers of people with white or whitish appearance. Really it's intended as a substitute for the descriptor 'white' as a means of defining the set of racial and ethnic groupings of European descent who we would consider as forming the greater pan-European family. It's especially useful when applied to their descendants in the white settler countries.

I like the term because it is inclusive enough to accommodate awkward boundary cases like the Bosnian muslims who are obviously ethnically European, but whose ancestors had the misfortune to be subjugated by Turks, while at the same excluding groups like Jews, who are not of European origin, even though many are 'white'.

guy

03-10-2009, 01:39 AM

I was wondering what the origin of DoEC was, since I've heard it before. It seems like a recent definition. 'White' has historically really only been used in the US, as far as I know, and the definition wasn't DoEC, as far as I know.

ogenoct

03-10-2009, 11:08 PM

I'm using 'White' here in the sense of 'Descendant of European Christendom' rather than in the limited sense of skin-tone.

That is bizarre. Does that mean that all our heathen ancestors need to be posthumously baptized? Were they not White? After all, they were not "descendants of European Christendom."

Dan Dare

03-11-2009, 12:30 AM

No of course not, don't be silly.

European pagan peoples eventually all became Christian a thousand years or more ago, and we are the descendants of those christianised heathens.

The term DoEC is intended to be used to distinguish present-day European-descended populations instead of the crude and inconclusive label "white".

ogenoct

03-12-2009, 12:52 PM

http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/006668.html

Race-conscious Jews

Eugene Girin writes at vdare about the rise of white racial consciousness among Jews. He mentions in particular Rabbi Mayer Schiller and Mike Berman, who is participating in an effort to start up a non-Nazi-friendly alternative to American Renaissance. Girin continues:

"Things are rapidly changing especially quickly on the college campuses of New York City. The presence of large numbers of racially realist Jews from the former Soviet Union, responsible for standing up to Black and Hispanic hoodlums in south Brooklyn and central Queens, make some gatherings of Jewish students seem like AR conferences."

The growth of a politically significant degree of white racial identification among Jews is something greatly to be desired. That Girin’s evidence adds up to such a phenomenon is not established. In particular, Rabbi Schiller is a questionable example of Girin's thesis. While Schiller was a major intellectual presence on the white right in the early 1990s, he has been publicly silent on racial issues for the past decade and apparently silent on all political issues for the last five years. Also, Schiller, as a Hasidic Jew with extremely unusual beliefs, was not representative of any broader segment of Jewry, but only represented himself. The same could frankly be said of other people of Jewish ancestry who are believers in the white West, such as myself.

Posted by Lawrence Auster at November 03, 2006 04:55 PM

Joe McCarthy

03-12-2009, 04:55 PM

ogenoct

03-12-2009, 05:25 PM

For every 'racially conscious Jew' you can put up, ogenoct, I can throw up 100 or more liberal-left activists who give money to the DNC, pro-Israel groups, PAW, the ACLU, or all of the above. It's akin to the fallacious thinking that holds that since there have been a number of Jewish inventors, we should ignore the seminal role Jews have played in bringing us to the crisis stage we're now in.

I'll put up Lawrence Auster. Now give me a list of 100 liberal-left activist Jews, with their full names! Also, for every White Gentile that you put up, I can list 1,000 liberal-left ones. Again, why single out the Jews? It's akin to the fallacious thinking that holds that since there have been a number of White Gentile inventors, we should ignore the seminal role White Gentiles have played in bringing on the downfall of their own race. Now give me the list!

Frank

03-12-2009, 05:42 PM

I'll put up Lawrence Auster!

In contrast I will put up:

1) Bernie Farber
2) Abraham Foxman
3) Frank Dimant

These are just three prominent members of the B'nai Brith groups that promote diversity for gentiles but in contrast support the Jewish Apartheid state known as Israel.

Again, why single out the Jews?

Maybe because groups that identify themselves as Jewish tend to be the forerunners in the organized promotion of diversity for gentiles while taking entirely opposite positions for their own people?

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe "anti-semitism" is largely caused by "Official Jews" who wreak havoc and hypocrisy on gentile society in the name of Jewry?

Another argument, again made by Jews and neo-Nazis alike, is that Jews' genetic closeness and distinctness from surrounding non-Jews proves that they constitute a unique and separate race. But this can easily be accounted for by genetic drift in a small, isolated population. And Jews are by no means the only group to which this phenomenon has occurred. Icelanders, though a mix of Celtic and Scandinavian peoples, are genetically isolated from the rest of Europe, but no one would consider them non-white or even any different from Swedes, Danes and Irishmen.

If this clown admits that Jewish people see themselves as a distinct race; why should any WN'ist view such elements as kinsmen? Many members of the ARA are white; are they friends because of their colour?

Second, the argument is simplified to a perverse degree. Jewish folks hold a unique genetic code not found in gentile populations; An Ashkenazim Jewish European man shares a unique low-frequency genetic code with an African Falasha Jew that he does not share with any gentile European. A "white" Jew has more in common with or is closer genetically to a "black" Jew then he is to a "white" gentile due to this unique structure; We do not have said low-frequency codes....

This is not done by accident either Ogenoct; just examine the SS style of breeding laws for the Cohanim or the very laws of Israel that forbid a Jew from marrying a gentile within Israel; selective breeding has resulted in a genetic uniqueness of the Jewish people.

Starr

03-12-2009, 05:58 PM

Are these race conscious jews truly concerned with the preservation of white western peoples or are they beginning to see that large minority populations might present problems to them as Jews? Certain minority populations have a higher percentage of people among them who do not like jews and also, I very likely assume, are more sympathatic to the Palestinian cause than white folks. In the very least, A jew who is able to look past his dislike, anomisity and distrust for white western man, surely would see that mass numbers of Muslims particularily in European nations is not a good thing for them as Jews. Of course there are going to be a few that oppose it on those grounds, alone.

I single out jews as opposed to white leftists in the ways you speak of because(using your example)those 100 jews are more likely to become directly involved in activism and organizations which have caused grave harm to our societies and our place in them. Jews openly admit things like this all of the time:

Jewish participation in the civil rights movement was much broader and wider than that of any other group, said Dresner, a board member of Meretz USA. “We were 11 times what we should have been,” given the number of Jews in the general population.

He believes the extent of their involvement is linked to the teachings of Jewish tradition.

“There is no other commandment repeated as often in the Tenach,” the Jewish Bible, as the one that instructs Jews to love the stranger as they love themselves, Dresner said. “It’s repeated 36 times in different forms.”

http://www.socialaction.com/issues/human_civil/MartinLutherKingDay/JewsandCivilRights.shtml

They are also more likely not only to participate but to have leadership roles and are also strongly disproporinately represented in organizations like the ACLU and the SPLC. Along with Morris Dees whose ancestory may be questionable, I am not sure, there was another founder of the SPLC, a jew. Not to even mention that the origins of the NAACP were very Jewish. This is another thing that jews, themselves take pride in admitting these days. My first contact specifically with talk of the large percentage of jews in the ACLU did not come from anyone who could be called an "anti semite" but a book I read a long while ago from an orthodox Rabbi.

Empress Cheesatine

03-12-2009, 06:09 PM

So in Ogenoct's thinking,

This is white:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3155/2938504783_1eae67a0b1.jpg

But these two sweaty Turks with a German girl are not white:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/96/264901393_fe63d6a5f7_m.jpg

:confused: :confused: :confused:

guy

03-12-2009, 06:10 PM

In contrast I will put up:

1) Bernie Farber
2) Abraham Foxman
3) Frank Dimant

These are just three prominent members of the B'nai Brith groups that promote diversity for gentiles but in contrast support the Jewish Apartheid state known as Israel.

I think Ogenoct will agree that these people are just as hypocritical as a WN that complains about Apartheid. I don't have the deep understanding of genetics that you do, but just by reading the words of Abe Foxman, and some of the posts I read here, I see a strong spiritual (if not genetic) kinship between them.

Are these race conscious jews truly concerned with the preservation of white western peoples or are they beginning to see that large minority populations might present problems to them as Jews?
I don't have time to go to any links now, but I can tell you that personally I care more about the survival of the West than the survival of Jewry.

Frank

03-12-2009, 06:11 PM

I single out jews as opposed to white leftists in the ways you speak of because(using your example)those 100 jews are more likely to become directly involved in activism and organizations which have caused grave harm to our societies and our place in them. Jews openly admit things like this all of the time:

Let's face facts; groups like the ADL who identify themselves as Jewish are far more effective at the promotion of gentile "diversity" then groups like the ARA.

The reason "Jews" tend to be targeted is the most effective enemy of race realism or white nationalism are people who practice their destructive craft in the name of Jewry. Who are WN'ists suppose to complain about under these circumstances....Buddhists?

Frank

03-12-2009, 06:14 PM

I think Ogenoct will agree that these people are just as hypocritical as a WN that complains about Apartheid. I don't have the deep understanding of genetics that you do, but just by looking at Abe Foxman and at some of the posts I read here, I see strong spiritual (if not genetic) kinship between them.

I want Ogenoct to understand why Jews tend to be targeted; "Official Jews" like Abraham Foxman promote the most vile of hypocrisies while moderate Jewish folks tend to keep quiet about it. One of the exceptions to this is Dr. Norman Finkelstein who has raked the B'nai Brith groups over the coals for their support of Israeli actions in the OPT and he has been professionally ruined for his stands.

I don't have time to go to any links now, but I can tell you that personally I care more about the survival of the West than the survival of Jewry.

Glad to read that!

guy

03-12-2009, 06:23 PM

Glad to read that!
A world without the West would be pretty bleak. If Western Jews integrate, that would be perfectly fine with me. As for Israel -- it's a nice place, and ideally it would be nice if it survived, but nothing lasts forever.

Joe McCarthy

03-12-2009, 06:38 PM

I'll put up Lawrence Auster. Now give me a list of 100 liberal-left activist Jews, with their full names! Also, for every White Gentile that you put up, I can list 1,000 liberal-left ones. Again, why single out the Jews? It's akin to the fallacious thinking that holds that since there have been a number of White Gentile inventors, we should ignore the seminal role White Gentiles have played in bringing on the downfall of their own race. Now give me the list!

You act as if this is difficult.

http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-jewishsupremacyassociationsmovements-folder.html

This is an extensive list of Jewish heavies ranging from ethnic lobbies to the media with everything in between. Some, though not many, can be said to be right-of-center, as in neo-con types, but these types are the ones most prone to support Zionist organizations. Moreover, these types, such as Bill Kristol and Daniel Pipes, are very much supportive of the civil rights movement and are certainly not 'racially conscious', except to the extent that we could loosely call blind loyalty to Israel race-consciousness.

There is also a serious problem with your thinking here, ogenoct. You continue to make the analogy between whites and Jews as if the analogy is valid. We are nationalists. As such, we must think like nationalists. As the father of ethnic nationalism Herder wrote, nations and races are like families, just in a more extended sense. To extend the analogy further, I'll note that we'd never treat the misdeeds of a family member the way we would an outsider. Jews are outsiders. White gentiles are not. Some whites may have to be culled for the benefit of the whole, but they are still essentially 'us'. That is an advantage your Jewish friends lack.

Now, give me your list of 1000 whites!

ogenoct

03-12-2009, 06:50 PM

http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-jewishsupremacyassociationsmovements-folder.html

Jew Watch is a ridiculous website that cannot be trusted. It even claims that Joseph Stalin was Jewish! Evidence? Picture of a young Stalin next to a picture of young Dustin Hoffman! I am not making this up!

Empress Cheesatine

03-12-2009, 06:58 PM

ogenoct

03-12-2009, 06:59 PM

Every time I point out that you claim that Jews are white but Turks are not you ignore it. Why is that?

Every time I point out that you claim that Italians are White but Jews are not you ignore it. Why is that? Besides, I never said that ALL Jews are White.

Empress Cheesatine

03-12-2009, 07:02 PM

Every time I point out that you claim that Italians are White but Jews are not you ignore it. Why is that? Besides, I never said that ALL Jews are White.

You've said that Jews of olive complexion are white. Turks are the same hue. What's the diff?

ogenoct

03-12-2009, 07:04 PM

You've said that Jews of olive complexion are white. Turks are the same hue. What's the diff?

I never said that. But you've said that Italians of olive complexion are White. Turks are the same hue. What's wrong with you?

ogenoct

03-12-2009, 07:08 PM

Jews are outsiders. White gentiles are not.

That is just your opinion. Do not pretend that it is somehow a fact. Not all nationalists think like you.

ogenoct

03-12-2009, 07:15 PM

Second, the argument is simplified to a perverse degree. Jewish folks hold a unique genetic code not found in gentile populations; An Ashkenazim Jewish European man shares a unique low-frequency genetic code with an African Falasha Jew that he does not share with any gentile European. A "white" Jew has more in common with or is closer genetically to a "black" Jew then he is to a "white" gentile due to this unique structure; We do not have said low-frequency codes....

The "unique" argument is a strawman. Two different families within a nation are each unique. And individuals are all unique, too. You are not the same as your parents. But they are not separate races. Scientifically, all nations are distinguishable from each other. You could even tell Germans from Austrians. And you can tell Ashkenazis from Sephardics. Does that make each of them "unique"? That means only one of them can be Jews!

Joe McCarthy

03-12-2009, 07:29 PM

Jew Watch is a ridiculous website that cannot be trusted. It even claims that Joseph Stalin was Jewish! Evidence? Picture of a young Stalin next to a picture of young Dustin Hoffman! I am not making this up!

You're enaging in a form of the ad hominem fallacy, ogenoct. I certainly agree that Jew Watch makes a number of dumb claims. The first one jumps right out at you on the homepage. It claims Trotsky was a Zionist when he opposed Zionism (albeit less stridently than many non-Jewish Bolsheviks). Still, the issue is the info I posted. It is a simple list of Jews representing various groups, and it is not likely that it could be screwed up. You might actually try addressing that, as that is the issue.

I'll add that there is some evidence, however slight, that Stalin was Jewish. I don't buy it, but it's more believable than the Hoffman bit you mentioned.

That is just your opinion. Do not pretend that it is somehow a fact. Not all nationalists think like you.

It's not 'fact' really. It's just based on the theories of the actual men who founded our movement. Guys like Herder and Fichte were not philo-Semites. Herder believed that Jews were a parasite on the European bodypolitic. In fact, he was sort of a forerunner of modern Zionism.

It is you and other philos that are the revisionist frauds.

ogenoct

03-12-2009, 07:31 PM

I'll add that there is some evidence, however slight, that Stalin was Jewish.

Where? I am not aware of it.

Frank

03-12-2009, 07:36 PM

The "unique" argument is a strawman.

How did I create a strawman?

The researchers found that the mtDNA of some 3.5 of the 8 million Ashkenazi Jews in the world can be traced back to only four women carrying distinct mtDNA of a type virtually absent in other populations. Non-Ashkenazi Jews also carry low frequencies of these distinct mtDNA types, providing evidence of shared maternal ancestry of Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Jews. This is consistent with previous findings based on studies of the Y-chromosome, pointing to a similar pattern of shared paternal ancestry of global Jewish populations, originating in the Near East. The researchers concluded that the four founding mtDNA – likely of Middle Eastern origin – underwent a major overall expansion in Europe during the last millennium.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060117083446.htm

It certainly appears that what I said matches up to the words of "Science Daily"...

Two different families within a nation are each unique. And individuals are all unique, too. You are not the same as your parents. But they are not separate races. Scientifically, all nations are distinguishable from each other. You could even tell Germans from Austrians. And you can tell Ashkenazis from Sephardics. Does that make each of them "unique"? That means only one of them can be Jews!

This is a silly argument; arguing that there is genetic variation between all humans does not negate the fact that Jewish populations share genetic codes absent in other gentile populations namely European populations; they actually do share many signatures with Middle Eastern Arabs but not Europeans.

Allow me to quote "Science Daily" once again:

The study also revealed that despite the complex history of Jewish migration in the Diaspora (the time since 556 B.C. when Jews migrated out of Palestine), Jewish communities have generally not intermixed with non-Jewish populations. If they had, then Jewish men from different regions of the world would not share the same genetic signatures in their Y chromosome.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm

Nothing I have stated is scientifically incorrect....

Joe McCarthy

03-12-2009, 07:38 PM

Where? I am not aware of it.

It was an article in the Barnes Review some years back. With some effort I might could dig it out of my closet. This is an oversimplified way to describe it, but the author held that Stalin's birthname indicated he was likely Jewish because few non-Jews in Georgia were given his name in those days. I have no idea if that really holds up, but I found it interesting.

Niccolo and Donkey

03-12-2009, 07:41 PM

Where? I am not aware of it.

LOL, The Barnes Review. Might as well as The Skunk too. He says that Stalin is Jewish because Djugashvili means "Son of a Jew" in Georgian. Nevermind that the word for Jew in Georgian is Ebreli and not Djuga.

Joe McCarthy

03-12-2009, 10:07 PM

LOL, The Barnes Review. Might as well as The Skunk too. He says that Stalin is Jewish because Djugashvili means "Son of a Jew" in Georgian. Nevermind that the word for Jew in Georgian is Ebreli and not Djuga.

Stupid comparison. I subscribed to TBR for years, and while they made errors, it was generally pretty sound. When Johnson was editor he contributed a number of first rate pieces in nationalist political theory, which set the standard for the movement imho.

At any rate, the article I am thinking of relied primarily on Stalin's first name as evidence. Again, I don't buy it, but it's one of those things that I tend to assume a Montaigne-like skepticism with. Until I see strong proof either way, I don't take a position. As Aristotle said, the mark of an educated mind is to consider an idea without accepting it.

Empress Cheesatine

03-12-2009, 10:35 PM

I never said that. But you've said that Italians of olive complexion are White. Turks are the same hue. What's wrong with you?

Are the gooks you want to fuck white, too, Mr. "race traitor whore"?

ogenoct

03-13-2009, 01:07 AM

@ Frank:

from: http://racialreality.110mb.com/jews.html

Genetics

"Afro-Asiatic and Indo-European samples differentiate along the second axis of the multivariate analysis. The Sephardim Jews, the Ashkenazim Jews, the Turks, and the Lebanese samples are genetically located at the intersection of these two linguistic groups, the Ashkenazim samples being somewhat closer to Indo-Europeans...."

(Poloni et al. 1997)

* * *

"A sample of 526 Y chromosomes representing six Middle Eastern populations...was analyzed for 13 binary polymorphisms and six microsatellite loci. The investigation of the genetic relationship among three Jewish communities revealed that Kurdish and Sephardic Jews were indistinguishable from one another, whereas both differed slightly, yet significantly, from Ashkenazi Jews. The differences among Ashkenazim may be a result of low-level gene flow from European populations and/or genetic drift during isolation. ... In our sample, this low-level gene flow may be reflected in the Eu 19 chromosomes, which are found at elevated frequency (12.7%) in Ashkenazi Jews and which are very frequent in Eastern Europeans (54%-60%) (Semino et al. 2000). Alternatively, it is attractive to hypothesize that Ashkenazim with Eu 19 chromosomes represent descendants of the Khazars, originally a Turkic tribe from Central Asia, who settled in southern Russia and eastern Ukraine and converted en masse to Judaism in the ninth century of the present era, as described by Yehuda Ha-Levi in 1140 A.D. (Dunlop 1954)."

(Nebel et al. 2001)

* * *

"Ashkenazim are quite distinct from their Mediterranean and Middle-Eastern co-religionists in the incidence of the disease and in the mutations responsible... The genetic family tree of Jews from different parts of Europe shows that they are not a unique group, biologically distinct from other peoples around them. There is, though, evidence of common ancestry that gives Jews at least a partial identity of their own. In most places, there is overlap between the genes of the Jewish population and those of local non-Jews. There has been interchange; sometimes through recent marriage, but more often as a result of mating long ago.... The Y chromosomes of Jews are—unsurprisingly—not all the same; the idea of the sons of Abraham is a symbolic one. They do show that many males, some only distantly related to each other, have contributed to the genes of European Jewry. On the average, most Jewish populations contain more diversity for male lineages than for female (whose history is recorded in mitochondrial DNA). This means that there has been more invasion of the Jewish gene pool by the genes of non-Jewish men than of women. The Y chromosomes of Jewish men from the Balkans are rather unlike those of other European Jews, perhaps because there was more admixture in this unstable part of the world."

(Jones, 1997)

Frank

03-13-2009, 06:47 PM

@ Frank:

from: http://racialreality.110mb.com/jews.html

From a more credible and detailed study using "modern" techniques:

The researchers analyzed the Y chromosome, which is usually passed unchanged from father to son, of more than 1,000 men worldwide. Throughout human history, alterations have occurred in the sequence of chemical bases that make up the DNA in this so-called male chromosome, leaving variations that can be pinpointed with modern genetic techniques. Related populations carry the same specific variations. In this way, scientists can track descendants of large populations and determine their common ancestors.

Specific regions of the Y chromosome were analyzed in 1,371 men from 29 worldwide populations, including Jews and non-Jews from the Middle East, North Africa, sub-Saharan Africa, and Europe.

The study, published in the May 9 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, found that Jewish men shared a common set of genetic signatures with non-Jews from the Middle East, including Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese, and these signatures diverged significantly from non-Jewish men outside of this region. Consequently, Jews and Arabs share a common ancestor and are more closely related to one another than to non-Jews from other areas of the world.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm

The authors of this study are: Dr. Ostrer from NYU School of Medicine; Michael F. Hammer, Alan J. Redd, Elizabeth T. Wood, M. Roxane Bonner, Hamdi Jarjanazil, and Tanya Karafet from the University of Arizona, Tucson; Silvana Santachlara-Benerecetti, University of Pavia, Italy; Ariella Oppenheim, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel; Mark A. Jobling, University of Leicester, England; Trefor Jenkins, University of Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, South Africa; and Batsheva Bonne-Tamar, Tel Aviv University, Israel.

In addition researchers Dr. Boron Dehar and Prof. Karl Skorecki revealed in another study: mtDNA of some 3.5 of the 8 million Ashkenazi Jews in the world can be traced back to only four women carrying distinct mtDNA of a type virtually absent in other populations. Non-Ashkenazi Jews also carry low frequencies of these distinct mtDNA types, providing evidence of shared maternal ancestry of Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Jews.

This is consistent with previous findings based on studies of the Y-chromosome, pointing to a similar pattern of shared paternal ancestry of global Jewish populations, originating in the Near East. The researchers concluded that the four founding mtDNA – likely of Middle Eastern origin – underwent a major overall expansion in Europe during the last millennium.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060117083446.htm

The only thing your cut and paste proves at best is that there is some "slight" genetic variation within the Jewish population; as you pointed out yourself there is even slight genetic variations within families let alone entire population groups which we already know.

The facts remain the same; Jewish populations groups retain genetic markers absent from other gentile populations with the closest genetic relations being with Arabs. This collective gene distribution and uniqueness is not negated because of slight genetic variations within the population.

ogenoct

03-14-2009, 08:18 PM

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/khazars.html

Are They "Jews" or Are They Really Khazars?

By Warrant of Rev. 2:9

The Campaign for Radical Truth in History

http://www.hoffman-info-com

New York Times Reveals that European-Descended Jews are Counterfeits and have no Blood line to Abraham

The fact that most of those who call themselves Jews are not Jews (Rev. 2:9) and have no claim to the lands of Palestine because they have no genetic relation to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob can no longer be suppressed. The October 29, 1996 N.Y. Times, in an article entitled, "Scholars Debate Origins of Yiddish and the Migrations of Jews," states:

"Arching over these questions is the central mystery of just where the Jews of Eastern Europe came from. Many historians believe that there were not nearly enough Jews in Western Europe to account for the huge population that later flourished in Poland, Lithuania, Ukraine and nearby areas.

"By reconstructing the Yiddish mother tongue, linguists hope to plot the migration of the Jews and their language with a precision never possible before.

"It has even been suggested, on the basis of linguistic evidence, that the Jews of Eastern Europe were not predominantly part of the diaspora from the Middle East, but were members of another ethnic group that adopted Judaism.

"...One linguist has recently argued that Yiddish began as a Slavic language that was 'relexified,' with most of its vocabulary replaced with German words.

"...Even more troublesome are demographic studies indicating that during the Middle Ages there were no more than 25,000 to 35,000 Jews in Western Europe. These figures are hard to reconcile with other studies showing that by the 17th century there were hundreds of thousands of Jews in Eastern Europe.

"...Some scholars believe the roots of Yiddish, and even the Ashkenazic people themselves, lie much farther east. In his 1976 book, The Thirteenth Tribe, Arthur Koestler made the startling suggestion, never taken seriously by linguists, that the Eastern European Jews were not really Semitic -- that they were largely descended from the Turkish Khazars, who converted en masse to Judaism in medieval times.

"More recently, Koestler's controversial thesis has been revived and expanded in a 1993 book, The Ashkenazic 'Jews': A Slavo-Turkic People in Search of a Jewish Identity (Slavica Publishers), by Dr. Paul Wexler, a Tel Aviv University linguist.

"Wexler uses a reconstruction of Yiddish to argue that it began as a Slavic language whose vocabulary was largely replaced with German words. Going even further, he contends that the Ashkenazic Jews are predominantly converted Slavs and Turks who merged with a tiny population of Palestinian Jews from the Diaspora."

(Emphasis supplied).

Frank

03-14-2009, 08:58 PM

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/khazars.html

I do not recall mentioning Khazars but in conclusion to this debate; you really do not expect any thinking rational person to dismiss the claims of credible geneticists including prominent Israeli scientists in favour of those made by a Michael Hoffman lackey do you? Linguistics does not impact actual genetics Ogenoct; if that were the case every Bantu who speaks Afrikaans as a primary language could legitimately claim to be a white guy from Holland. :rolleyes:

ogenoct

03-18-2009, 07:42 PM

Was Benjamin Disraeli thinking about Jewish or White superiority when talking about race matters? Or both? Here are two quotes:

God works by races ... The Aryan and the Semite are of the same blood and origin, but when they quitted their central land they were ordained to follow opposite courses. Each division of the great race has developed one portion of the double nature of humanity, till after all their wanderings they met again, and, represented by their two choicest families, the Hellenes and the Hebrews, brought together the treasures of their accumulated wisdom and secured the civilisation of man.
-- from his novel LOTHAIR (1870)

The difference of race is one of the reasons why I fear war may always exist; because race implies difference, difference implies superiority, and superiority leads to predominance.
(1849)

Joe McCarthy

03-18-2009, 08:03 PM

Disraeli was certainly a racist. He made a comment that 'all is race' and similar remarks to the above about Jews being superior as they are members of the caucasian race are found in 'Coningsby'. Still, context is important. Disraeli, as a Jew, had much interest in latching Jews onto Aryans in that epoch. If you think I need to explain why, you've really missed the train.

ogenoct

03-19-2009, 04:12 PM

Disraeli, as a Jew, had much interest in latching Jews onto Aryans in that epoch. If you think I need to explain why, you've really missed the train.

Tyical nonsense response from you... Disraeli was Prime Minister. He was in charge! What possible reason could he have had to "latch onto Aryans"? Rather, I believe he was speaking from the heart what he truly believed. Of course, your silly anti-Semitism shields you from that fact since you, in your twisted mind, can never take ANYTHING that ANY Jew says at face value. You missed the train a long time ago. If you have evidence that Disraeli had ulterior motives, feel free to provide it. Otherwise, stop being a silly goose.

Joe McCarthy

03-19-2009, 05:55 PM

Well, ogenoct, I'll simply note that Disraeli was living in an Aryan nation where the predominant thinking of the time was that Aryans were on top and fit to rule. Why wouldn't Disraeli want to hitch his wagon to that train?

Disraeli was a Christian, though he still had a strong Jewish identity. He was often insulted for being Jewish. In one case he responded that his ancestors were priests in the temple of Solomon when one of his tormentor's ancestors were barbarians of some such variety.

It's strange that you'd bring up Disraeli anyway. He spoke of Jewish conspiracies to rule the world, which was a point Daniel Pipes, also a Jew, cringed at in his study 'Conspiracy'. 'Coningsby' is in fact famous for articulating this conspiracy in fictional form, though Disraeli believed this was a factor in real life.

Empress Cheesatine

03-21-2009, 06:16 PM

Tyical nonsense response from you... Disraeli was Prime Minister. He was in charge! What possible reason could he have had to "latch onto Aryans"? Rather, I believe he was speaking from the heart what he truly believed. Of course, your silly anti-Semitism shields you from that fact since you, in your twisted mind, can never take ANYTHING that ANY Jew says at face value. You missed the train a long time ago. If you have evidence that Disraeli had ulterior motives, feel free to provide it. Otherwise, stop being a silly goose.

Since when were white people semitic?

KevinDeBurgh

03-23-2009, 07:35 AM

I heard both the terms Aryan and white used in this thread. The word Aryan means nothing to me because it is a non-European Indian vedic term. The word white is an American concept and it probably only came about because Americans want or wanted all European immigrants to assimilate into the dominant Anglo culture. So while it is understandable how the word 'white' came about to be used that does not mean that really means anything in reality. I've finally come to the realization in this sphere of thought when considering what oneself truly is if one doesn't think in terms of ethnicity in regards to this issue then one is deceiving oneself. Ashkenazi is an ethnicity, German is an ethnicity, French is an ethnicity etc... but white and Aryan are not ethnicities. My ethnicity is actually British isles derived (mostly at least I do have some direct French ancestry from Alsace-Lorraine) Norman French e.g. Hiberno-Norman or Scoto-Norman or perhaps Celtic. Anyway speaking English is not totally alien to me since modern English is a mixture of French influences from the Norman invasion and Germanic but I say the only people who English is not completely foreign language to are people who are a mixture of Norman and Anglo-Saxon or in the very least Anglo-Saxon and French. I should know a d'oil language as well just like some Jews can write in both Hebrew and English. Anyway, being 'white' or wanting to be 'white' is a phantasm since it has no anthropological meaning it actually has no meaning in objective reality. It might have some subjective social meaning in some social milieus but that just makes it a mass delusion at best. Objective facts of reality are the realm of science and like I said 'white' has no anthropological meaning so there is in short no such thing as the white race. It's not my fault the masses don't think in scientific terms or even understand science at all so don't shoot the messenger if this ruffles your feathers.

"Anthropology (/ˌænθɹəˈpɒlədʒi/, from Greek ἄνθρωπος, anthrōpos, "human", and -λογία, -logia, "discourse") [1] is the study of humans and humanity in its totality. Anthropology has origins in the natural sciences, and the humanities.[2] In Great Britain it was originally divided into physical anthropology and cultural anthropology, which itself was divided into archaeology, technology, ethnology (the comparative study of different peoples, focusing on material culture, language, religion and other social institutions) and sociology (the comparative study of social phenomena).[3] In the United States anthropology traditionally has comprised four fields: physical anthropology, archaeology, linguistics and cultural anthropology. Today, in Britain, Archaeology and Sociology are generally taught as separate subjects, and ethnology was renamed social anthropology and emerged as the leading focus of anthropology. Anthropology in other countries generally follows one or both of these models."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropology

________________________________
Nazism was a peasant movement populated by the worst in German peasant scum. Its "Aryan" philosophy and aspirations were a complete joke, and its blind devotion to nationalistic jingoism was the height of psychological blindness and wishful thinking. You can't make genetic so called 'Aryans' - a race of kings - out of a nation of genetic turnip-peasants.

Vessper

04-01-2009, 11:09 PM

Starr

04-02-2009, 03:43 AM

And also, about the "Jewish Conspiration", it's just ridicolous. Yes, some of them are multiculturalist, so what?. A lot of non-jewish Whites are multiculturalists too. There is no "jewish conspiration".
"Jews control the multicultural media". Another ridicolous phrase. Even if some jews, somehow controlled the media, what about the jews who doesn't have anything to do with the it?.

So, we conclude that there are White anti-multicultural, pro-White/West, jewish people. Explain me how can this people be an enemy!

Every single jew does not have to be involved in these things for them to be a problematic population, any more than every negro has to be a violent criminal in order for us to look at negroes as a more violent and problematic population.

Jews and jewish groups have taken an active role in promoting things like multiculturalism, mass immigration, hate crime laws and they themselves brag about how valuable they were to the civil rights movement in this country. The NAACP was founded by jews. Of the two founders of the SPLC, one is jewish and their group is heavily jewish just as is the ACLU. I recall hearing on a television show on PBS(this who was about jews in America and was put together by a jew) that jews made up more than half of the "white" freedom riders. (I had heard this claims tons of times from white nationalists, but had assumed it was an exaggeration since they do tend to exaggerate certain things at times) To balance that out how many jews actively stood against such things? How are such jews generally viewed by their own?

If a small sampling of jews have a more positive view of white western civilization and our nations, maybe even look at themselves as white and want to stand up for white interests, I have nothing against them. I do not look at them as having some sinister ulterior motive, but such people are certainly not where near the norm among their people. The norm seems to be somewhere closer to the views of Abe Foxman than it is, for example, the type involved with groups like American Renaissance.(I am not saying jews are generally as nuts as Foxman just that they are closer to his views. and of course such a group as his would not exist without the support of many jews)
And yes, there are a whole hell of a lot of jews in Hollywood. Jews like Ben Stein have talked of such things. And all you have to do is turn on the television or go to the latest movie to see the garbage they put out. And don't even get me started on Redstone's MTV.

Joe McCarthy

04-02-2009, 04:03 AM

ogenoct's view is nonsense, though I suppose it's fine that he's convinced at least one person. It'll give him purpose.

Joe McCarthy

04-02-2009, 04:06 AM

ogenoct

04-02-2009, 05:53 AM

One other thing that I was going to mention and forgot is that ogenoct could very easily join Lothrop Stoddard and try to include Algeria in the white orbit. That he won't can be attributed to them being Muslim, which demonstrates that he too considers other things besides race.

Lothrop Stoddard was talking about the (back then) substantial European population in Algeria, not the native Muslim one.

ogenoct

04-02-2009, 05:56 AM

Joe McCarthy: "This chick ain't White!" LOL!:

http://www.kate-hudson.com.ar/pictures/kate-hudson.jpg

Joe McCarthy

04-02-2009, 06:13 AM

Joe McCarthy: "This chick ain't White!" LOL!:

http://www.kate-hudson.com.ar/pictures/kate-hudson.jpg

She looks like the German looking Ms. Universe or something or other from Algeria that I saw some years ago.

Btw, you're wrong on Stoddard. He took the pied noire population (about 15% of which were Jews btw) for granted but thought the natives were racially salvageable enough to possibly make them an appendage of Europe. They may be even now. I know that 'French' soccer player, Zdane I think his name is, is a racially white Algerian.

Vessper

04-02-2009, 06:26 AM

I think that you all should have some honour and respect every pro-White person in the world (only if he/she is White, nonetheless), no matter about what his/her group generally believes. You might say that a neighbourhood is known to have strong multicultural beliefs and 70% of the pupulation is multiculturalist, but the pro-White people of that neighbourhood would still pro-White and it would be very unfair to treat them differently. Same thing happens with jews.

Blacks are not only a problem for their crimes but because of their heritage. In order to build a real Western Nation we need to create a common ancestry in order to promote the patriotism, folk and culture of the nation. Also, the contact between two different races, especially Whites and Blacks, just create tension and conflicts.

And also, there are tons White people with two or one jewish (White) grandparents who doesn't consider themselves jews and they are not welcomed neither by most White Nationalists. What's the point on this?. If you welcome White Ashkenazi Jews with pro-White beliefs as one more member then I don't know why are we arguing.

ogenoct

04-02-2009, 08:23 AM

She looks like the German looking Ms. Universe or something or other from Algeria that I saw some years ago.

It is actress Kate Hudson, daughter of Goldie Hawn (Ashkenazi Jewess). According to you, Kate Hudson is not White. You are weird.

Joe McCarthy

04-02-2009, 09:13 AM

It is actress Kate Hudson, daughter of Goldie Hawn (Ashkenazi Jewess). According to you, Kate Hudson is not White. You are weird.

When did I say she isn't white? We've been over this. If merely being white is enough, I demand you accept assorted Turks, Iranians, Tajiks, Pastuns, Algerians, etc. You won't because you rightly see Islam as a barrier. Why you are attempting to have Judaism cross that barrier is a mystery I wouldn't mind seeing solved.

Vessper

04-02-2009, 05:08 PM

When did I say she isn't white? We've been over this. If merely being white is enough, I demand you accept assorted Turks, Iranians, Tajiks, Pastuns, Algerians, etc. You won't because you rightly see Islam as a barrier. Why you are attempting to have Judaism cross that barrier is a mystery I wouldn't mind seeing solved.
Turks, Itanians, Tajiks, Pastuns, Algerians, etc are not European. They may be Caucasoid, but they are not and were never Europeans. Ashkenazi Jews are Europeans and without Ashkenazi cooperation Europe would not be the same (a lot of things would be missing, it would be far worse). Face it.

Joe McCarthy

04-02-2009, 07:10 PM

Turks, Itanians, Tajiks, Pastuns, Algerians, etc are not European. They may be Caucasoid, but they are not and were never Europeans. Ashkenazi Jews are Europeans and without Ashkenazi cooperation Europe would not be the same (a lot of things would be missing, it would be far worse). Face it.

Albanians are Europeans. How many British nationalists do you think feel enriched by their tribal blood feuds?

Moreover, Turkey can be said to be nominally European as part of it is in Europe. Western Turks are largely warmed over Ionian Greeks. Why not include them? Muslims have some history of enriching Europe, specifically Spain, when Christians were in comparative backwardness. Recall that Nietzsche spoke of the Umayyad state in fond terms, castigating the priests as dirty primitives that disbelieved in bathing.

In sum, if you're going to argue for 'European' Jews, two can play at that game....

Vessper

04-02-2009, 07:37 PM

Albanians are Europeans. How many British nationalists do you think feel enriched by their tribal blood feuds?

Moreover, Turkey can be said to be nominally European as part of it is in Europe. Western Turks are largely warmed over Ionian Greeks. Why not include them? Muslims have some history of enriching Europe, specifically Spain, when Christians were in comparative backwardness. Recall that Nietzsche spoke of the Umayyad state in fond terms, castigating the priests as dirty primitives that disbelieved in bathing.

In sum, if you're going to argue for 'European' Jews, two can play at that game....

Albanians are Europeans, it doesn't matter if they contributed or not. Same thing for European Jews. Turkey conquered a Greek territory, which is still a Greek territory we should should reconquer it. And yes, some ethnic Greeks are born in Western Turkey, and they are still Greek and White.

Muslims invaded European territory, and there was White population in that places. Spain is originally an Ibero-Celtic country, with some Roman influence. Moors are aliens to Spain, they conquered an Spanish territory. It doesn't matter if muslims had better technology in that time or were "more intelligent", they invaded part of the European Land. Same thing for Southern Italy and all the European invaded territories.

I don't know what you mean with "two can play at that game".

Joe McCarthy

04-02-2009, 07:41 PM

Moors are aliens to Spain

This at the core cuts to the real point. Jews too are aliens. They are no more European than Gypsies.

Empress Cheesatine

04-02-2009, 07:54 PM

I'll also add that there are who knows how many people of the Barbary Coast, including Algeria, that are descended of kidnapped European women.

Joe McCarthy

04-02-2009, 07:58 PM

I'll also add that there are who knows how many people of the Barbary Coast, including Algeria, that are descended of kidnapped European women.

True, the massive pirate captures extended literally into the seven figure mark - and that in an era of comparatively small European population.

Vessper

04-02-2009, 08:16 PM

This at the core cuts to the real point. Jews too are aliens. They are no more European than Gypsies.

Jews are aliens to Spain just as Welsh are aliens to Spain. Polish Jews, though, are not aliens to Poland. Russian Jews are not aliens to Russia. So what I'm saying is that Ashkenazi Jews as a whole are not aliens to Europe.

Empress Cheesatine

04-02-2009, 08:27 PM

Jews are aliens to Spain just as Welsh are aliens to Spain. Polish Jews, though, are not aliens to Poland. Russian Jews are not aliens to Russia. So what I'm saying is that Ashkenazi Jews as a whole are not aliens to Europe.

How are Polish Jews not alien to Poland, and likewise the Russian? Being in Europe for an extended period living among the native population doesn't erase someone's foreignness. Whites have lived in South Africa for hundreds of years, and I have yet to see someone say that they aren't alien to that land.

Vessper

04-02-2009, 08:43 PM

How are Polish Jews not alien to Poland, and likewise the Russian? Being in Europe for an extended period living among the native population doesn't erase someone's foreignness. Whites have lived in South Africa for hundreds of years, and I have yet to see someone say that they aren't alien to that land.

Most Russian jews are descendants of Russian non-jews converts. The rest are descendants of Sorbians, Polabians and Khazars in a minor extent. Some ethnic groups in Russia are not descended of the very first Russian ethnic groups, but are consider Russian nonetheless. Same for Jewish Russians.

Think twice if you want to say me that Russian Jews are hebrew descendants.

Scultetus

04-02-2009, 09:54 PM

I agree with Ogenoct..
First of all, I want to say to DesaixDeVeygoux that Whites have a common phenotype, a common ancestry and a common culture. That makes us a distinct race.

Ashkenazi Jews are racially White. There are, though, different kinds of Ashkenazi Jews, because there are different sources, but all of them are White. They may be Alpine looking, they may be Germanic looking, and they may even be Mediterrean looking in some cases. Obviously in most of the cases they are just a combination between them.

They were always as proud as any other non-jewish citizen of their respective countries (Russia, Germany, Ukraine, Poland or whatever), fought in their wars and contributed greatly to the folk and progress of their country. This was always like this, till the Second World War, because they were just murderered and expelled. A lot of them fought valiently against Hitler, the anti-White, jew/slav murderer, pro-Islam monster.

And also, about the "Jewish Conspiration", it's just ridicolous. Yes, some of them are multiculturalist, so what?. A lot of non-jewish Whites are multiculturalists too. There is no "jewish conspiration".
"Jews control the multicultural media". Another ridicolous phrase. Even if some jews, somehow controlled the media, what about the jews who doesn't have anything to do with it?.
So, we conclude that there are White anti-multicultural, pro-White/West, jewish people. Explain me how can this people be an enemy!

I TOTALLY agree with your post! I wish it could be beaten into the heads of every "WN" wacko! :bbbat: "WN" seems really to have NOTHING to do with pride in the accomplishments of the white race or the preservation of Western countries for their native inhabitants. It seems to be composed of people who "see Jews EVERYWHERE" :rofl: and who want to say the "N" word or verbally run down every other race. If it TRULY were just "pride", I think more people would have no problem with it. It is NOT that AT ALL! It took me a few years to figure that out. Now, I am still a realist on race, but I want nothing to do with any "movement." :mad: :crazy:

Jett

04-02-2009, 11:03 PM

Ashkenazi jews are mongrel mixes of several races. Enough said.

They value high intelligence over any physical beauty, and take in the host society's rejects, choosing only the smartest ones to bring into their tribe, so they tend to be ugly little smart asses after generations of this breeding strategy.

Vessper

04-02-2009, 11:05 PM

Joe McCarthy

04-03-2009, 12:06 AM

Most Russian jews are descendants of Russian non-jews converts. The rest are descendants of Sorbians, Polabians and Khazars in a minor extent. Some ethnic groups in Russia are not descended of the very first Russian ethnic groups, but are consider Russian nonetheless. Same for Jewish Russians.

Think twice if you want to say me that Russian Jews are hebrew descendants.

The Ashkenazim have some amount of European admixture, naturally, mainly Slavic. If you are contending that Russian and Polish Jews are not of Near East descent, let's see your evidence. Here is DNA evidence on the Ashkenazim generally. Somehow I doubt that Polish and Russian Jews, as you claim, are excluded from this.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1626606/posts

The Kurdish Jews and Sephardic Jews were found to be very close to each other. Both of these Jewish populations differed somewhat from Ashkenazic Jews, who mixed with European peoples during their diaspora. The researchers suggested that the approximately 12.7 percent of Ashkenazic Jews who have the Eu 19 chromosomes -- which are found among between 54 and 60 percent of Eastern European Christians -- descend paternally from eastern Europeans (such as Slavs) or Khazars. But the majority of Ashkenazic Jews, who possess Eu 9 and other chromosomes, descend paternally from Judeans who lived in Israel two thousand years ago

I'll note that these percentages create a problem for your claim regarding Russian and Polish Jews

I'll add that conversion to Islam has occurred among Europeans historically and now. Few WNs consider such people to be part of 'us', and civilizationally speaking, Muslim Albania, for example, is not a Western state. In fact, some scholars consider Jews to be a unique civilization. In sum, converting to Judaism or Islam puts one outside the Western orbit. That is a problem philo-Semites will not get around.

Vessper

04-03-2009, 12:16 AM

The Ashkenazim have some amount of European admixture, naturally, mainly Slavic. If you are contending that Russian and Polish Jews are not of Near East descent, let's see your evidence. Here is DNA evidence on the Ashkenazim generally. Somehow I doubt that Polish and Russian Jews, as you claim, are excluded from this.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1626606/posts

I'll note that these percentages create a problem for your claim regarding Russian and Polish Jews

I'll add that conversion to Islam has occurred among Europeans historically and now. Few WNs consider such people to be part of 'us', and civilizationally speaking, Muslim Albania, for example, is not a Western state. In fact, some scholars consider Jews to be a unique civilization. In sum, converting to Judaism or Islam puts one outside the Western orbit. That is a problem philo-Semites will not get around.

Well, I don't know if I'm able to prove my point with DNA, but I can show you studies that says that North Africans (some of them completly black) and Middle Easterns are Caucasoid (White) by DNA.
So, you either believe in both studies or none. DNA doesn't proves anything. It can't even prove Race, go figure (the racial DNA tests are a myth, I never test myself. The DNA testing groups say that is not acurate and that it "may" have some problems.

Before Holocaust, Jewish-German woman were 52% blue eyed. How can you explain that? if you say that they are hebrews?

klipgeit

04-03-2009, 06:59 AM

klipgeit

04-03-2009, 07:10 AM

Well, I don't know if I'm able to prove my point with DNA, but I can show you studies that says that North Africans (some of them completly black) and Middle Easterns are Caucasoid (White) by DNA.
So, you either believe in both studies or none. DNA doesn't proves anything. It can't even prove Race, go figure (the racial DNA tests are a myth, I never test myself. The DNA testing groups say that is not acurate and that it "may" have some problems.

Before Holocaust, Jewish-German woman were 52% blue eyed. How can you explain that? if you say that they are hebrews?

I promised myself not to get into this fickle debate.
Just this
Caucasoid.1=Caucasian http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Caucasian
2.Semites http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people

Ashkenazim:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews

AND most importantly this
http://judaism.about.com/od/abcsofjudaism/a/beingjewish.htm

Mike Jahn

04-03-2009, 07:25 AM

They are not White, they are generally Turko-Slavics with traces of Mongol blood.

Longinus

04-03-2009, 02:25 PM

They are not White, they are generally Turko-Slavics with traces of Mongol blood.

Slavs don't mix with Jews like Britons and Americans.

Joe McCarthy

04-03-2009, 04:12 PM

Slavs don't mix with Jews like Britons and Americans.

Slavs have mixed with Jews plenty. Likely more than any other white gentile group.

Petr

04-03-2009, 04:31 PM

Slavs don't mix with Jews like Britons and Americans.
Yeah right. :rofl:

Even more interesting was the fact that the S.S. Intelligence service had discovered that nearly all members of the ruling clique in Croatia, from the head of government to the leader of the Ustashe, were married to Jewish women. The fifteen hundred survivors among the Jews in this area - five per cent, according to a Yugoslav government report - were clearly all members of this highly assimilated, and extraordinarily rich, Jewish group.
"The reason for this law became apparent when noting the number of Jews who were counted among Croatia's leaders and statesmen. An interesting note in this regard is Slavko Kvaternik. Marsal Kvaternik, married the daughter of Josip (Joshua) Frank, the Jewish successor to Dr. Ante Starcevic as the leader of Pavelic s party. Therefore, not only was the wife of Ante Pavelic, the Chief-of-State, Jewish, but the wife of the vice-president and Chief of the Armed Forces, police forces, and gendarmes was also a Jew. Slavko Kvaternik's son, Col. Eugen Kvaternik, Ustasa commissioner for Public Order and Security was, according to both German and Judaic law, a Jew.
http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1543&highlight=josip

Petr

Longinus

04-03-2009, 07:44 PM

Slavs have mixed with Jews plenty. Likely more than any other white gentile group.

Jews in Slavic lands were ghettoized almost until modernity, while English Jews were well interbred and racially indistinguishable from Anglo-Saxons. Same goes for Nordic Reinland Jews in Germany. Anglo-Germanic gentry and money-elite is Jewish (Rotschilds, Rockefellers).

Yeah right. :rofl:

http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1543&highlight=josip

Petr

99% of Croatia's Jews came from Germany and non-Slavic Hungary, they all had distinguishable Germanic names. No way Croatians mixed with Jews more than English or Germans. Germanics mix with Jews traditionally, Slavs only since recent times. lol Frank was a Hungarian Jew with GERMAN surname. Your point?

Calvinists are spiritual Kikes and American protestants and Danes allegedly even descendent from Israelites, according to their own quasi-Christian tradition.

Petr

04-03-2009, 08:03 PM

99% of Croatia's Jews came from Germany and non-Slavic Hungary, they all had distinguishable Germanic names. No way Croatians mixed with Jews more than English or Germans. Germanics mix with Jews traditionally, Slavs only since recent times. lol Frank was a Hungarian Jew with GERMAN surname. Your point?

Calvinists are spiritual Kikes and American protestants and Danes allegedly even descendent from Israelites, according to their own quasi-Christian tradition.
Judging by your bellowing, looks like I hit you in a soft spot...

Btw, it's a traditional and venerable doctrine among both Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox that the church is the New Israel and that Christians are "Israelites according to Spirit" - "spiritual kikes", as you might say. Are you ashamed of the teachings of your own church?

Petr

Longinus

04-04-2009, 12:51 AM

Judging by your bellowing, looks like I hit you in a soft spot...

Btw, it's a traditional and venerable doctrine among both Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox that the church is the New Israel and that Christians are "Israelites according to Spirit" - "spiritual kikes", as you might say. Are you ashamed of the teachings of your own church?

Petr

"New Israel" is St. Peter's Church in Covenant with Christ and "Israelites according to Spirit" are members of this Church. By "spiritual kikes" I meant the fate in "choseness" and blood-link to Israelites practiced by such as American "Christian Identity" groups. Also Christian Zionism practiced by Evangelical "Christians".

There is something conspicuously Phariseeic about Protestant emphasis on the script of the Old Testament and Kalvinist practice of usury.

Joe McCarthy

04-04-2009, 07:32 AM

It seems this thread never goes away. Time to put it out of its misery.

Arrow Cross

04-04-2009, 09:51 AM

There is something conspicuously Phariseeic about Protestant emphasis on the script of the Old Testament
Wrong. Both are acknowledged as important in different ways, but the emphasis is on the New Testament.

and Kalvinist practice of usury.
What usury?

Longinus

04-04-2009, 01:05 PM

Wrong. Both are acknowledged as important in different ways, but the emphasis is on the New Testament.

At the time the Christian Bible was being formed, a Greek translation of Jewish Scripture, the Septuagint, was in common use and Christians adopted it as the Old Testament of the Christian Bible. However, around 100 A.D., Jewish rabbis revised their Scripture and established an official canon of Judaism which excluded some portions of the Greek Septuagint. The material excluded was a group of 15 late Jewish books, written during the period 170 B.C. to 70 A.D., that were not found in Hebrew versions of the Jewish Scripture. Christians did not follow the revisions of Judaism and continued to use the text of the Septuagint.

Protestant reformers in the 1500s decided to follow the official canon of Judaism for the Old Testament rather than the Septuagint, and the excluded material was placed in a separate section of the Bible called the Apocrypha. Protestant Bibles included the Apocrypha until the mid 1800s, but it was eventually dropped from most Protestant editions.

http://thresholdofhope.blogspot.com/2005/12/what-is-difference-between-catholic.html

What usury?

One school of thought attributes Calvinism with setting the stage for the later development of capitalism in northern Europe. In this view, elements of Calvinism represented a revolt against the medieval condemnation of usury and, implicitly, of profit in general[citation needed]. Such a connection was advanced in influential works by R. H. Tawney (1880–1962) and by Max Weber (1864–1920).

Calvin expressed himself on usury in a letter to a friend, Oecolampadius, in which he criticized the use of certain passages of scripture invoked by people opposed to the charging of interest[citation needed]. He reinterpreted some of these passages, and suggested that others of them had been rendered irrelevant by changed conditions. He also dismissed the argument (based upon the writings of Aristotle) that it is wrong to charge interest for money because money itself is barren. He said that the walls and the roof of a house are barren, too, but it is permissible to charge someone for allowing him to use them. In the same way, money can be made fruitful[citation needed].

He qualified his view, however, by saying that money should be lent to people in dire need without hope of interest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism#Usury_and_capitalism

More:
http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/Andrew.Carrington.Hitchcock/The.History.of.the.Money.Changers.htm

Petr

04-04-2009, 03:53 PM

http://thresholdofhope.blogspot.com/2005/12/what-is-difference-between-catholic.html
The often seen RC/EO claim that adopting the Hebrew OT canon was some sort of Reformation-era novelty simply isn't true.

While early Christian writers often saw great edificational value in some apocryphal books, many if not most of them did not consider them to be canonical in the full sense of the word.

Just hear it from 8th-century author John of Damascus - from his Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, book IV:

Chapter XVII.--Concerning Scripture [2514] .

...

Observe, further [2527] , that there are two and twenty books of the Old Testament, one for each letter of the Hebrew tongue. For there are twenty-two letters of which five are double, and so they come to be twenty-seven. For the letters Caph, Mem, Nun, Pe [2528] , Sade are double. And thus the number of the books in this way is twenty-two, but is found to be twenty-seven because of the double character of five. For Ruth is joined on to Judges, and the Hebrews count them one book: the first and second books of Kings are counted one: and so are the third and fourth books of Kings: and also the first and second of Paraleipomena: and the first and second of Esdra. In this way, then, the books are collected together in four Pentateuchs and two others remain over, to form thus the canonical books. Five of them are of the Law, viz. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. This which is the code of the Law, constitutes the first Pentateuch. Then comes another Pentateuch, the so-called Grapheia [2529] , or as they are called by some, the Hagiographa, which are the following: Jesus the Son of Nave [2530] , Judges along with Ruth, first and second Kings, which are one book, third and fourth Kings, which are one book, and the two books of the Paraleipomena [2531] which are one book. This is the second Pentateuch. The third Pentateuch is the books in verse, viz. Job, Psalms, Proverbs of Solomon, Ecclesiastes of Solomon and the Song of Songs of Solomon. The fourth Pentateuch is the Prophetical books, viz the twelve prophets constituting one book, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel. Then come the two books of Esdra made into one, and Esther [2532] . There are also the Panaretus, that is the Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Jesus, which was published in Hebrew by the father of Sirach, and afterwards translated into Greek by his grandson, Jesus, the Son of Sirach. These are virtuous and noble, but are not counted nor were they placed in the ark.
http://mb-soft.com/believe/txud/damasc24.htm

John Damascene was not any kind of "Judaizer" - in fact, he was a celebrated defender of icon worship. We can thus see him as an efficient "hostile witness".

Here's is a great presentation of the Protestant case against apocryphal OT books:

http://www.christiantruth.com/apocryphaintroduction.html

Clearly, then, Carthage did not authoritatively establish the canon for the Church universally. The claims of Roman Catholic apologists are spurious. In fact, the New Catholic Encyclopedia states that the canon was not officially settled for the Western Church as a whole until the Council of Trent in the sixteenth century:

St. Jerome distinguished between canonical books and ecclesiastical books. The latter he judged were circulated by the Church as good spiritual reading but were not recognized as authoritative Scripture. The situation remained unclear in the ensuing centuries...for example, John of Damascus, Gregory the Great, Walafrid, Nicolas of Lyra and Tostado continued to doubt the canonicity of the deuterocanonical books...According to Catholic doctrine, the proximate criterion of the biblical canon is the infallible decision of the Church. This decision was not given until rather late in the history of the Church at the Council of Trent...The Council of Trent definitively settled the matter of the Old Testament Canon. That this had not been done previously is apparent from the uncertainty that persisted up to the time of Trent.93
http://www.christiantruth.com/Apocryphapart2.html

Also check out this:

Part 3: From Jerome to the Reformation

http://www.christiantruth.com/Apocrypha3.html

Petr

ogenoct

04-18-2009, 10:22 AM

http://state-of-exile.blogspot.com/2009/04/rejected-stone-becomes-cornerstone.html

Friday, April 17, 2009

The Rejected Stone Becomes The Cornerstone

Albert Caraco was a French-Jewish aphorist and misanthrope who wrote, according to a friend who is translating one of his books, "The Jews are the backbone of the white race." I like this quotation particularly for its broad capacity to offend. Are Jews members of the white race? Are Jews the backbone of the white race? The answer to the first question of course, depends on who's asking. There is no halakah for race. South Africa considered its Jews white enough to be categorizable as such under Apartheid, but they benefited from comparison to the more visible "other." Similarly motivated, in 1938 Dominican dictator Rafael Trujillo offered to take in 100,000 Jewish refugees from Europe in order to "whiten" his brownish country. No doubt the Jews would have been more acceptable to the Germans if Haiti had been next door to supply contrast. Yet nowadays, what does it really matter? As another French misanthrope, Michel Houllebecq says, "I'm interested in subjects more important than race." Though of course if Jews are the backbone of the white race, rest assured fellow Caucasoids: your spinal column will last for eternity.

Posted by ¡Benjaminista!

klipgeit

04-18-2009, 10:38 AM

http://state-of-exile.blogspot.com/2009/04/rejected-stone-becomes-cornerstone.html

And the Japanese were also treated as whites in South Africa,the Chinese not.

Apocales

04-18-2009, 11:20 AM

Stupid thread.

Gregz

04-18-2009, 12:50 PM

So in Ogenoct's thinking,

This is white:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3155/2938504783_1eae67a0b1.jpg

Army and Air Force custom permits only right-handed salutes! I bet this fearless warlord spend her days filing her nails and nights on laying her back. :rofl:

Vessper

04-26-2009, 06:59 PM

No, in Ogenoct thinking this is White

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/6962/miakirschner.jpg

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/2351/evanrachelwood.jpg

Anyway, would you say me who is the girl in that picture please?. Those are Mia Kirschner and Evan Rachel Wood.

ogenoct

04-28-2009, 09:25 AM

from: http://ashkenazithing.blogspot.com/2009/04/banned-book-id-like-to-read.html

Monday, April 27, 2009

A banned book I'd like to read

Ashkenazi Revolution, by Kalman Katzenelson, was cited in Rachel Shabi's We Look Like the Enemy, which I just read. I assumed I'd read it (A.R.) next, because it's a racialist take on Zionism. There is very little about it on Google. It must be a very interesting book, to have been suppressed so successfully. Here's a quote about the book, not from it. Even bad reviews like this are hard to find:

One of the worst examples of the anti-Mizrahi discrimination involves The Ashkenazi Revolution published in 1964 by writer Kalman Katzenelson in which the author argues that the Mizrahim suffer from irreversible genetic inferiority that endangers the superiority of the Ashkenazi-Zionist state. He called for the establishment of an apartheid regime that, among other limitations, would abolish their political rights. He also objected to mixed marriages and demanded the prohibition of the Hebrew language because it resembled Arabic too greatly. Instead he demanded that Yiddish become the national language because of its supreme Germanic origins. His book was a bestseller until Ben-Gurion banned it.

Vessper

04-28-2009, 09:07 PM

from: http://ashkenazithing.blogspot.com/2009/04/banned-book-id-like-to-read.html
Interesting...
I often talk to the owner of that website, nice guy (he is from White America)

Flint Steel

04-28-2009, 09:34 PM

Ashkenazi Jews are White!

Just more turkish than most whites.

Flint Steel

04-28-2009, 09:37 PM

The Jews fought valiantly in the Red Army against the Nazi oppressor and exterminator. Jewish soldiers in the Red Army disproportionally earned the decoration "Hero of the Soviet Union." About 150 Jews received this award. The Jews ranked fifth among the nationalities that received the award. They excelled in the struggle for the liberation of Holy Europe!

On the Jews:
"Never has so much worthless noise been said by so few to so many."

New Scientist

04-29-2009, 02:40 PM

I just want to add my bit here, regarding ashkenazi being white. Well i am half ashkenazi, so i ought to know a little.

Most of the jews i am related to are white, thats not important at all. Just because you are looking at a white ashkenzai does not mean you are looking at a person with white attributes.

Whats important is what the jewish group selection criteria is. The jewish group selects for certain attributes. That selection includes hoovering up desirable genes from host populations as needed. That gene hoovering process is a slave to the jewish direction.

Whatever genes come in from outside have to operate within a framework that is ruled by an orthodoxy that sticks to an old testament mindset. Its quite a process becoming a jew. You have to jump through more tests and hoops than any other religion.

Even after that non orthodox jews are all on probation within the jewish framework. This is what i remember of my family. There were the orthodox branches who lived in england, and the more assimiliated jews would feel anxious and inferior when the orthodox relatives would visit. The orthodox relatives would visit demanding that all their insane rules be observed, but it would be silent disdain if they were not, as if those orthodox were royalty. Which describes the one structure you can say a jewish society has, is that orthodoxy is treated with royal respect.

Strangely the orthodox jews were mostly white, because they had proved to have the behaviours which made good orthodox jews, which is probably why they were assimiliated in borg style manner to begin with. You had a situation in my family where white jews with more obsessive psychopathic traits, were uppity and snobbish to the brown jews, even though the brown jews were obviously of more ancient middle eastern stock. The white jews had taken over. because they had genes which made them good at taking over.

The point is that every population including white is prone to giving rise to people who are maybe higher in certain differences such as aspergers syndrome, psychopathy, obsessive compulsion disorder...etc.. The average population may select some of those people as usefull members of their society in maybe a fraction such as 1-4%.

The jewish system with its high self interest agenda, demands high numbers of these genes, that other populations would rather restrain, and will select them in for lots of reasons. The genes are usefull in behaviour terms (and being white also helps as a good cover within another society) as being a jew there is one simple agenda. Do not be ordinary be extraordinary when it comes to taking resources, controlling others or being good at serving jews that do. Any jew who is no good in this respect will not get a jewish wife and be selected out.

As the jewish group has far higher numbers of genes normal populations do not want to be so prominent, it interbreeds newer and more intense genetic variations of them. You then end up with a different breed of person in behavioural terms. Higher in selfishness, obsession, psychopathy and creativity and the IQ required to contribute to machiavellian traits required for intense selfishness and the ability to outcompete larger groups for resources.

You cannot say when looking at an ashkenazi they are white. That is just your racial instinct kicking in making you think they are. You are looking at the interbreeding of someone who had genes which proved an advantage to what jewish interests require.

New Scientist

04-29-2009, 03:30 PM

I think i should temper these posts by also saying that even though i criticize heavily whats going on with jewish interests in politics, israel and the usa, and like to proble the technical points, have also known many jews who are selfless, spending their lives helping other non jews with no rewards.

For example my best friend at school spent his life helping handicapped children (non jews) earned no more than minimum wage, and died penniless at a young age. I Also know jews as top engineers, scientists, artists etc and do not pay service to the jewish group agenda. Many other jews try to live decent lives, are fully aware of the jewish role in the problems of the world, and do not want to contribute more problems.

So there are many exceptions. These discussions are purely about those jews who believe in, and are involved in the core parts of the jewish group which are involved in the many problems today.

..

Columnist

04-29-2009, 03:50 PM

Strangely the orthodox jews were mostly white, because they had proved to have the behaviours which made good orthodox jews, which is probably why they were assimiliated in borg style manner to begin with. You had a situation in my family where white jews with more obsessive psychopathic traits, were uppity and snobbish to the brown jews, even though the brown jews were obviously of more ancient middle eastern stock. The white jews had taken over. because they had genes which made them good at taking over.

Would something similar happen when Europe becomes Muslim?

Omniel

04-29-2009, 06:01 PM

My grandfather and great-grandfather risked their lives in both world wars to defend my country. The same goes for many Jews over here.

New Scientist

04-29-2009, 06:23 PM

Would something similar happen when Europe becomes Muslim?

Dont know what you mean ..would muslims serve jews ?

In any case muslims dont have the ability to take over europe. They are here by proxy.

New Scientist

04-29-2009, 06:31 PM

My grandfather and great-grandfather risked their lives in both world wars to defend my country. The same goes for many Jews over here.

So did some of my relatives, while others did not. The jewish relatives who were good in business went. They had those psychopathic genes, something which other relatives had commented on, i would hear things like nice guy as long as you arent doing business with him.

That would be my uncles side, he drove a tank in the WW2 and as far as i can tell enjoyed that. While the more creative jews such as my grandfather obviously werent up for, he stayed in britain and ran one of the aircraft factories in WW2, or so i am told.

Omniel

04-29-2009, 06:54 PM

So did some of my relatives, while others did not. The jewish relatives who were good in business went. They had those psychopathic genes, something which other relatives had commented on, i would hear things like nice guy as long as you arent doing business with him.
Having a ruthless approach to business matters might sometimes correlate with psychopathy, but it's a flying leap to assume that this indicates a genetically-imprinted psychopathic nature which is suited for warfare. An ability to emotionally disengage perhaps, but that is by no means equivalent to a serious personality disorder. I often find you and deNuge too quick to diagnose psychopaths, there seems to be one behind every tree.

That would be my uncles side, he drove a tank in the WW2 and as far as i can tell enjoyed that. While the more creative jews such as my grandfather obviously werent up for, he stayed in britain and ran one of the aircraft factories in WW2, or so i am told.
Well my grandfather was a tailor by profession and highly creative, so I guess anecdotes aren't particularly useful here.

New Scientist

04-29-2009, 08:22 PM

Having a ruthless approach to business matters might sometimes correlate with psychopathy, but it's a flying leap to assume that this indicates a genetically-imprinted psychopathic nature which is suited for warfare. An ability to emotionally disengage perhaps, but that is by no means equivalent to a serious personality disorder. I often find you and deNuge too quick to diagnose psychopaths, there seems to be one behind every tree.

I am making a continued effort to accurately diagnose what makes a psychopath, and keep up to date on this.

latest on it here (http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=47299&page=2)

If you have any criticsms of my analysis of psychopaths then fill me in.

War is a very good environment for psychopaths. They get to fulfill many of their traits.

Emotional disconnection when inflicting suffering gives them many opportunities which are also in their make up. To thrive as an individual, for revenge, expression of agression, obsessive focus on an enemy.

Psychopaths are 1 in 20 in populations according to stats. The researchers on the subject think that the sucessfull ones, which greatly outumber the criminal ones are mostly in business and politics. How disproportionate a number of jews are in business or politics ?

Well as a jewish man you have few choices. Either be in business, law, positions of power or enter the creative and caring fields and get to a decent position. There isnt much place for a jew who is happy to be normal. The family get together environment is kind of excitable competition where people announce their incomes and position to be up on some other relatives. I lived this. I know what its like.

If this is all that matters then the intermix of such overcompetitive genes is sure to produce disproportionate succesfull psychopaths. What else could it produce ?

Omniel

04-29-2009, 08:56 PM

I am making a continued effort to accurately diagnose what makes a psychopath, and keep up to date on this.

latest on it here (http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=47299&page=2)

If you have any criticsms of my analysis of psychopaths then fill me in.
As you ask, that post is composed of anecdotal claims, sweeping statements and weakly supported assumptions. Don't kid yourself that it has any scientific merit, it's a bias-ridden rant of little objective value. Even your response here is littered with poor critical reasoning - I've isolated one of the few apparently objective points. As one of your purportedly scientific analyses it might be atypically free of references to your personal experience but it's still a fatally flawed proposition (even if it is embedded in a loaded question):

Psychopaths are 1 in 20 in populations according to stats. The researchers on the subject think that the sucessfull ones, which greatly outumber the criminal ones are mostly in business and politics. How disproportionate a number jews are in business or politics ?If Smurfs are blue and Blurfs are also blue, are all Blurfs also Smurfs? Are most? Are any?

New Scientist

04-29-2009, 11:18 PM

[QUOTE=Thaumiel]As you ask, that post is composed of anecdotal claims, sweeping statements and weakly supported assumptions. Don't kid yourself that it has any scientific merit, it's a bias-ridden rant of little objective value. Even your response here is littered with poor critical reasoning - I've isolated one of the few apparently objective points. As one of your purportedly scientific analyses it might be atypically free of references to your personal experience but it's still a fatally flawed proposition (even if it is embedded in a loaded question):

Until we actually have a complete model of psychopathy this is an attempt to put stuff together and see what fits. A lot is coming together. Of course the only way to prove is to take a random sample of jewish people and see if they get higher scores than the average population.

So as yet this is not yet intended as a scientific model. Ive built scientific models elsewhere. That kind of thing you are asking requires years of dedicated work with colleages building on a good amount of data to start with.

There simply isnt enough data on psychopathy to build this. All that can be done is to collect the little data as it comes out, and try to put it together and see what theories, connections and structures emerge. This is all thats going on here. I have made it clear to anybody that takes it too seriously (one well known researcher wanted to radio interview me on it) its too early a stage to take it up to a serious level.

Perhaps you just dont like the model because of your own personal bias ? You arent going to tell me that its easy to look at your family and friends and then try to think of them in terms of psychopathy ? Its virtually impossible to do as an adult.

I have an advantage in that this process of examing who was a psychopath was ocurring within our jewish community in my childhood. It has split the family for three generations. None of this then is a big deal for me in fact it reveals a lot.

If Smurfs are blue and Blurfs are also blue, are all Blurfs also Smurfs? Are most? Are any

Correlation is not causation. However you dont get to accurate models without first going down this kind of rough proof put together.

What is to be gained from doing this you might ask ? So what if jews have higher psychopathy. All you are thinking is, well if any of this is true that jewry is high in psychopaths, then it better not be known in the general population right ?

Why are you thinking that, ? Because of the anxiety victimhood programming that is a part of psychopathy models in the first place. Kind of proves the point.

Tell me when you are ready to really think about this properly.

Vessper

05-03-2009, 04:33 PM

New Scientist

05-04-2009, 12:54 AM

Ok..
So you are actually saying that Ashkenazi Jews have something like a secret organization in order to atract "useful genes" acording to their "selection criteria"?
Man, ask any Jew and he will tell you he has no idea about "interbreeding with people of useful genes which proved an advantage to their interest".

Of course not. I was brought up jewish for a while so just basing on what ive read and thinking about what i have seen. There is quite the opposite. If anything regular movements are made to stop jews marrying out.

but it happens, that a lot of jewish women marry out, and this is the means by which new genes enter, (which is what happened with me) as the jewish pool is so highly selective, strong demands are made on anything that comes in. Its a one way street, with more good genes coming in (good for the jewish agenda, such as marrying wealth and power) and no good jewish genes getting booted out (ever so gently of course) if they are rubbish at grabbing extraordinary amounts of resources.

None if this selective gene hoovering has to be really conscious. It operates on the same principles any other people operate on. There are theories by Henry Makow that there was marrying into british royal blood lines, but even then i think all he is saying is that these families were just making deals with each other rather than any sinister plan, although i will not preclude the idea that sinsister planning occurs from time to time.

..

PvtTitus

05-04-2009, 02:09 AM

In his article "Who Are the Jews?" (Natural History, November 1993), Jared Diamond is quick to downplay the European admixture among Ashkenazi Jews and discredit the theory that the Ashkenazim are descended largely from non-Semitic Central Asian Khazars who converted to Judaism in the 8th centurey (which has neither been proven nor disproven genetically), all in an effort to portray Jews as somehow "purely Israelite". He focuses on mtDNA and Y chromosome research that has shown all modern ethnically Jewish populations (save for the non-ethnically Jewish Ethiopian Jews yes throw out the pesky data that doesn't fit, makes things tidier :rolleyes: ) to be very closely related and to have ties with the ancient Hebrews of the Middle East.

Snicker. A Self Chosen merely scribbles and logic ceases and reality is discredited.

A "jew" is:

1) a swarthy Semite aka Arab from great great grandpappy Judah

2) a converted member of cult that worshipped Moloch and Baal

3) something else (insert lizard, satan's children, Elohim, Cain's kids, ...)

4) Russian and Polish crime gang hiding behind a religion.

Vessper

05-06-2009, 09:28 PM

Of course not. I was brought up jewish for a while so just basing on what ive read and thinking about what i have seen. There is quite the opposite. If anything regular movements are made to stop jews marrying out.

but it happens, that a lot of jewish women marry out, and this is the means by which new genes enter, (which is what happened with me) as the jewish pool is so highly selective, strong demands are made on anything that comes in. Its a one way street, with more good genes coming in (good for the jewish agenda, such as marrying wealth and power) and no good jewish genes getting booted out (ever so gently of course) if they are rubbish at grabbing extraordinary amounts of resources.

None if this selective gene hoovering has to be really conscious. It operates on the same principles any other people operate on. There are theories by Henry Makow that there was marrying into british royal blood lines, but even then i think all he is saying is that these families were just making deals with each other rather than any sinister plan, although i will not preclude the idea that sinsister planning occurs from time to time.

..

Sorry, I can't get it, what demands?.
You say that they don't do it conciously, but then why they do that?

Frank

05-06-2009, 10:21 PM

I TOTALLY agree with your post! I wish it could be beaten into the heads of every "WN" wacko! :bbbat: "WN" seems really to have NOTHING to do with pride in the accomplishments of the white race or the preservation of Western countries for their native inhabitants. It seems to be composed of people who "see Jews EVERYWHERE" :rofl: and who want to say the "N" word or verbally run down every other race. If it TRULY were just "pride", I think more people would have no problem with it. It is NOT that AT ALL! It took me a few years to figure that out. Now, I am still a realist on race, but I want nothing to do with any "movement." :mad: :crazy:

The true "wacko's" are those who ignore the science in favour of ideology. As I posted and explained earlier reputable genetic studies place Jewish people in a very unique genetic category.

It is true that many Jewish folks can pass as white, black, Asian or whatever other group you can conjure up in your mind while many others fit a certain profile when it comes to looks. However, the one reality is that on a genetic level Jewish folks are unique and have more in common with one another than they do their host population groups. A Canadian Jewish man shares a unique genetic code with a Falasha Jewish woman that he does not share with a gentile Canadian man.

In addition lets examine Israel; the Ashkenazi Jews who rule that nation do not view themselves as WHITE! Look at the Israeli law of return sometime; this law permits Jews of any colour or origin to migrate to Israel while White gentiles have no right to migrate to that nation.

Second, look at the marriage laws of Israel. An Ashkenazi Jew can marry a black Falasha Jew with no problem while it is against Rabbinical law (the law that governs marriage in Israel) for a Ashkenazi Jew to marry a White gentile in Israel proper.

When dealing with this debate posting pictures does not tell the whole story; you have to look at the deeper genetics. In addition look at the one state on the planet that is primarily governed by Ashkenazi Jews; I do not see a state that promotes White unity but Jewish unity in which non-whites are accepted as brothers and allies. You have to examine the actual loyalties of the folks you are willing to accept as "White" brothers; even Ogenoct's original article concedes that Jewish folks do not view themselves as White but Jewish.

Just some things to think about....

New Scientist

05-06-2009, 11:33 PM

Sorry, I can't get it, what demands?.
You say that they don't do it conciously, but then why they do that?

The demands on who marries in are high, like an extra fussy father in law to be. The father in law does cannot exert a lot of control over who his sons procreate with as he can with his daughter. Hence the jewish mother makes jewish child rule helps exert a high degree of control over intermarriage.

Many of the group convergence marriage/mating instincts are automatic subconsious processes.

Vessper

05-07-2009, 12:11 AM

The demands on who marries in are high, like an extra fussy father in law to be. The father in law does cannot exert a lot of control over who his sons procreate with as he can with his daughter. Hence the jewish mother makes jewish child rule helps exert a high degree of control over intermarriage.

Many of the group convergence marriage/mating instincts are automatic subconsious processes.

Well, may be, I don't know...

It is true that many Jewish folks can pass as white, black, Asian or whatever other group you can conjure up in your mind while many others fit a certain profile when it comes to looks. However, the one reality is that on a genetic level Jewish folks are unique and have more in common with one another than they do their host population groups. A Canadian Jewish man shares a unique genetic code with a Falasha Jewish woman that he does not share with a gentile Canadian man.

When dealing with this debate posting pictures does not tell the whole story; you have to look at the deeper genetics. In addition look at the one state on the planet that is primarily governed by Ashkenazi Jews; I do not see a state that promotes White unity but Jewish unity in which non-whites are accepted as brothers and allies. You have to examine the actual loyalties of the folks you are willing to accept as "White" brothers; even Ogenoct's original article concedes that Jewish folks do not view themselves as White but Jewish.

Just some things to think about....

About the Canadian Ashkenazi sharing genes with the Falasha, it's completly false. Ethiopian/Falasha Jews are Black, just as the rest of Blacks.

I don't have just pictures, I posted pictures in answer to other picture posted before. I have anthropological proof, Ashkenazis came from many European sources, and even the Hebrews were White. About genes, they are genetic works that prove one thing and the other one too. Genes are not really that trusteable. Just with the genes a lot of non-Whites may pass as White. We have to focus on anthropology.

Frank

05-07-2009, 03:26 AM

About the Canadian Ashkenazi sharing genes with the Falasha, it's completly false. Ethiopian/Falasha Jews are Black, just as the rest of Blacks.

There are some conflicting studies on Beta Israel but being black does not disqualify an African Jewish man from possessing unique genetic markers of the Jewish people. The following is quite telling regarding the black African Lemba tribe:

Once described as "a sort of British Indiana Jones," Parfitt spent many months with the Lemba, meeting their tribal and religious leaders and observing some of their most sacred rituals. He came to the conclusion that the origin of many of the Lemba traditions was indeed Semitic, not African. But whether these traditions came from Islamic or Jewish sources was impossible to discern from the historical and anthropological evidence available. It would take Y-chromosome studies to delve deeper into this question of origin.

A few years after his travels, Parfitt teamed up with a group from The Center for Genetic Anthropology at University College London to look for a genetic counterpart to the Lemba's oral tradition of Jewish descent. Using a relatively new technique in genetic studies, the team identified a particular series of genetic markers on the Y chromosome of Lemba males. They then compared these markers to other groups with whom the Lemba might have shared a common ancestor long ago.

The team collected DNA samples from Bantu (African), Yemeni (Arab), and Sephardic Jews and Azhkenazi Jews (including Cohanim from both communities) to compare the amount of similarity that existed between each of these groups. As we've seen, the more similar the Y chromosome, the more closely related are some individuals in the different groups to a common paternal ancestor. As a consequence, one can establish links between populations.

In an interview with NOVA, team member Dr. David Goldstein commented on the team's findings: "The first striking thing about the Y chromosomes of the Lemba is that you find this particular chromosomal type (Cohen modal haplotype) that is characteristic of the Jewish priesthood in a frequency that is similar to what you see in major Jewish populations. Something just under one out of every 10 Lemba that we looked at had this particular Y chromosomal type that appears to be a signature of Jewish ancestry. Perhaps even more striking is the fact that this Cohen genetic signature is strongly associated with a particular clan in the Lemba. Most of the Cohen modal haplotypes that we observe are carried by individuals of the Buba clan which, in Lemba oral tradition, had a leadership role in bringing the Lemba out of Israel."

Tudor Parfitt, the protagonist of the NOVA documentary "Lost Tribes of Israel," made a journey through southern Africa to study the unusual traditions of a black African tribe called the Lemba. This Bantu-speaking group claimed Jewish ancestry and observed many Semitic traditions such as kosher-like dietary restrictions and slaughter practices, male circumcision rites, strict rules against intermarriage, and Semitic-sounding clan names.

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/lemba.htm

I don't have just pictures, I posted pictures in answer to other picture posted before. I have anthropological proof, Ashkenazis came from many European sources, and even the Hebrews were White. About genes, they are genetic works that prove one thing and the other one too. Genes are not really that trusteable. Just with the genes a lot of non-Whites may pass as White. We have to focus on anthropology.

You are correct; 40% of Ashkenazi Jews have European origins that can be traced back to four women! However, those four women have genetic codes that are completely foreign to gentile European populations:

The researchers’ conclusions are based on detailed comparative analysis of DNA sequence variation in the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) region of the human genome. mtDNA is transmitted to descendants by the mother only.

The researchers found that the mtDNA of some 3.5 of the 8 million Ashkenazi Jews in the world can be traced back to only four women carrying distinct mtDNA of a type virtually absent in other populations. Non-Ashkenazi Jews also carry low frequencies of these distinct mtDNA types, providing evidence of shared maternal ancestry of Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Jews. This is consistent with previous findings based on studies of the Y-chromosome, pointing to a similar pattern of shared paternal ancestry of global Jewish populations, originating in the Near East. The researchers concluded that the four founding mtDNA – likely of Middle Eastern origin – underwent a major overall expansion in Europe during the last millennium.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060117083446.htm

You will also note the unique genetic links drawn between Non-Ashkenazi Jews and Ashkenazi Jews.

In addition:

Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes.

Hammer MF, Redd AJ, Wood ET, Bonner MR, Jarjanazi H, Karafet T, Santachiara-Benerecetti S, Oppenheim A, Jobling MA, Jenkins T, Ostrer H, Bonne-Tamir B.

Laboratory of Molecular Systematics and Evolution, University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ 85721, USA.

Haplotypes constructed from Y-chromosome markers were used to trace the paternal origins of the Jewish Diaspora. A set of 18 biallelic polymorphisms was genotyped in 1,371 males from 29 populations, including 7 Jewish (Ashkenazi, Roman, North African, Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite, and Ethiopian) and 16 non-Jewish groups from similar geographic locations. The Jewish populations were characterized by a diverse set of 13 haplotypes that were also present in non-Jewish populations from Africa, Asia, and Europe. A series of analyses was performed to address whether modern Jewish Y-chromosome diversity derives mainly from a common Middle Eastern source population or from admixture with neighboring non-Jewish populations during and after the Diaspora. Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level. Admixture estimates suggested low levels of European Y-chromosome gene flow into Ashkenazi and Roman Jewish communities. A multidimensional scaling plot placed six of the seven Jewish populations in a relatively tight cluster that was interspersed with Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations, including Palestinians and Syrians. Pairwise differentiation tests further indicated that these Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations were not statistically different. The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10801975?dopt=Abstract&holding=npg

Vessper

05-07-2009, 11:24 PM

Well, first of all, the genes that Ashkenazi Jews have that are not frequent among non-jewish Europeans, are exactly that, not frequent. You can, though, find most of them among some non-jewish Europeans. There is some samples that you can't find almost anywhere else, but you can also take any other European group, like the Finns, for example, and find that a lot of them have unique genes too. It's just that almost nobody bothered to make such an analisis. About the Falashas having cohanim genes, I don't buy it. If something, 0,01& of Falashas may have it because of a tiny admixture, but nothing else.

Apart from this, I already told you all that racial/ethnic genetic testing is not very well developed, it's not exact enough. There is not a mark that says "Welsh" or "White" in the genes, it's all about aproximation and suposition. We should focus on anthropology, as this sub-forum implies.

Frank

05-08-2009, 01:23 AM

Vessper

05-08-2009, 01:39 AM

I believe the exact percentage number of Ashkenazi Jews that share European markers is 11.5%. However, overall Ashkenazi Jews are the most closely related to other Jews regardless of populations and even other semitic people including Arabs.

The bottom line fact is that Ashkenazi Jews are closer to other Jews than they are to their host European populations.
It depends on which host European population. Russian Jews are just one more Russian group, and there is a lot of groups them, all of them Russian.
European markers are blurry, since they share genes with Middle Easterns and North Africans so there is not a set defining just the Europeans. The pèrcentage of Ashkenazi Jews sharing the exact markers of their host ppulation is much more higher, but it still means something: not all Ashkenazi Jews were in their goup since millenia. The answer for this, though, is not that the came from North Africa or any other kind of theory like it, Ashkenazi Jews have multiple sources.

This is why Ashkenazi Jews are White European, they derive from multiple sources:

Khazar Source: Khazarian pagans and christians (who were pagans before converting to christianity also) converted to judaism in mass, the aristocracy decide to improve the convertion to judaism mainly because the neutral point between christian slavic tribes and muslism arabs. But there was tons of reasons, which are described in a lot of books. Now, the Khazars who converted to judaism, were of mainly Mediterrean stock, but some of them were also Slavic slaves who integrated to the Khazarian Empire also. These Slavics were, subracially, a combination between Germanics and Alpines.

West Slavic Source: Slavic tribes (German-Alpines) that converted to judaism and adopted judaic beliefs. These tribes were mainly Sorbians and Polabians, but there are a few more slavics also.

Germanic and Slavic Admixture: A lot of non-jewish Germanics and Slavics intermixed with jewish people. Ashkenazi's Genealogical Trees proves that there are a lot of non-jewish ancestors.

Jewish Influence from Western Europe: French, Spanish and Portuguese jews who moved to the East, to Germany and Austria, and then moved to Eastern Europe. They were in these first countries for a lot of time, so they had a lot of French, Spanish and Portuguese admixture. This source is quite tiny.

Even if the Western Jewish influence derives from the Hebrews, Hebrews themselves were White or mostly White. I doubt any Ashkenazi can trace his ancestors to the Hebrews, and even if some can do it it would just mean that maybe 3-4% of Ashkenazi gene pool is Hebrew, which is also mostly White.

I'm posting this because this proves that it's obvious that jewish Poles won't be exactly like non-jewish Poles since maybe they can trace their ancestry to somewhere else in Europe, but this happens to lots of European groups. And between the Ashkenazis you can find differences so it's also not really trusteable to put a German Jew into the same group than a Russian Jew, since obviously they have some differences.

Frank

05-08-2009, 03:20 AM

European markers are blurry, since they share genes with Middle Easterns and North Africans so there is not a set defining just the Europeans. The pèrcentage of Ashkenazi Jews sharing the exact markers of their host ppulation is much more higher, but it still means something: not all Ashkenazi Jews were in their goup since millenia. The answer for this, though, is not that the came from North Africa or any other kind of theory like it, Ashkenazi Jews have multiple sources.

According to the studies I provided the Ashkenazi Jews remained a unique genetic entity even during their time in Europe; to this very day they are closer genetically to non-Ashkenazi Jews and Semitic Arabs then they are to European gentile populations.

It is true that Ashkenazi Jews are the closest Jewish population to the Europeans but in the end the reputable scientific studies state that they are closer to non-White Jews than they are to European gentiles.

I'm posting this because this proves that it's obvious that jewish Poles won't be exactly like non-jewish Poles since maybe they can trace their ancestry to somewhere else in Europe, but this happens to lots of European groups.

It speaks volumes that a European Ashkenazi Jew is closer to a North African or Asian Jew than he is to a gentile European because he largely shares a genetic structure absent in most gentile populations.

You can go on all you want about them being white, blue, pink, green, plaid or whatever colour scheme you wish to place them under using historical tales of conversions etc; but the science is not blurry in this instance and the scientists have been very specific in their analysis of the genetic codes.

Again, Ashkenazi Jews are closer to non-Ashkenazi Jews than they are to European populations and other gentile populations save Semitic Arabs.

Even if the Western Jewish influence derives from the Hebrews, Hebrews themselves were White or mostly White. I doubt any Ashkenazi can trace his ancestors to the Hebrews, and even if some can do it it would just mean that maybe 3-4% of Ashkenazi gene pool is Hebrew, which is also mostly White.

If you read the earlier article; 40% of Ashkenazi Jews can be traced to 4 European women that possessed genetic markers foreign to ALL other European populations. The origin of the markers are believed to be Middle Eastern...

ogenoct

05-08-2009, 06:41 AM

If you read the earlier article; 40% of Ashkenazi Jews can be traced to 4 European women that possessed genetic markers foreign to ALL other European populations. The origin of the markers are believed to be Middle Eastern...

This is not entirely true.

What is not clear are the original origins of these Ashkenazi Jewish females. They could trace to Israelites who migrated to Europe. There is also some evidence of mixing between Ashkenazi Jews and Jews expelled from Spain who relocated to Europe. Or, in concert with the British findings, the marker mutations could be from European or Eurasian women - supporting the local wives theory. Behar believes that most of these four lineages representing 40 percent of European Jewish females probably originated in ancient Mesopotomia. The other 60 percent of Ashkenazi Jewish women more than likely have European and some Middle Eastern roots.
-- Jon Entine, "ABRAHAM'S CHILDREN: RACE, IDENTIY and the DNA of the CHOSEN PEOPLE", page 219

Gregz

05-08-2009, 09:44 AM

According to the studies I provided the Ashkenazi Jews remained a unique genetic entity even during their time in Europe; to this very day they are closer genetically to non-Ashkenazi Jews and Semitic Arabs then they are to European gentile populations.

The Ashkenazi Jews are not the the closest Jewish population historically to the Europeans. As the Italians, Spanish (Dutch) and Portuguese all have a certain amount of Sephardim admixture.

Semitic lands are and always have been well within the Europeans sphere and some genetic drift south does also obviously occur. The Palestinians interestingly have around 20% European ancestry and that are far closer to the Europeans than other Arab groups.

Many Jewish anthropologists are obsessed with proving the purity of Jewish blood lines and linking it with those of Jewish tribal priests and IMO there objectivity is rather questionable.

The Sephardim pre-date the Ashkenazi and I suspect that the Ashkenazi Jews are the result of Turkic/Kurdish/Sephardim admixture and that they are only racially Jews on account of there high level of Sephardim admixture.

Frank

05-08-2009, 12:58 PM

This is not entirely true.

Are you a clown? How does this cut and paste disprove what I previously claimed?

The Ashkenazi Jews are not the the closest Jewish population historically to the Europeans.

On a strictly genetic level they are closest to Europeans when it comes to Jewish populations. However, Ashkenazi Jews are closer genetically to African and Asian Jews than they are to Europeans.

Vessper

05-09-2009, 02:21 AM

It speaks volumes that a European Ashkenazi Jew is closer to a North African or Asian Jew than he is to a gentile European because he largely shares a genetic structure absent in most gentile populations.
And what about those European non-Jews who have this genetic structure?

On a strictly genetic level they are closest to Europeans when it comes to Jewish populations. However, Ashkenazi Jews are closer genetically to African and Asian Jews than they are to Europeans.
No, they are not. I don't know what you mean with Asian Jews (there are different kinds), but Ashkenazi Jews are not closer to Falashas than the rest of the Europeans. It's just not true. It would be actually stupid, where did you see a Black Ashkenazi or a White Falasha?

But well, I say for fourth time, we should focus on anthropology instead of genetic comparation since genes are not exact (I already said it, genes are not that exact, Poles don't have just a marker that says "Pole", it's about aproximation).

ogenoct

05-09-2009, 01:32 PM

Are you a clown? How does this cut and paste disprove what I previously claimed?

Right, because you never cut and paste. Lol! I think you are the clown here. I suggest you reread what I posted and then get back to me. Reading is a skill...

PvtTitus

05-09-2009, 05:04 PM

This is not entirely true.
-- Jon Entine, "ABRAHAM'S CHILDREN: RACE, IDENTIY and the DNA of the CHOSEN PEOPLE", page 219

One more time. What do non arab (semite - from Shem) have to do with European Poles, Russians, Germans, and Hungarian Talmudists?

And btw Abe was not a Jew. Judah was one of Abe's great great X n grandsons.

Related:

Physician Claims Jews are Schizo Carriers
Subtitle: "Is Mental Illness the Jewish Disease?"

http://abbc.net/historia/illness.htm

Imagine baby ogenoct's first pain and pleasure. A reeking bearded male mutilating his sex organ. Then bearded male relieves ogenoct's pain somewhat by kissing the wound with the saintly rabbinical lips to remove the blood. YAWEH now knows ogenoct is CHOSEN!

Nature or Nurture?

See also

Bris Milah - Jewish Circumcision by Mohel

http://i39.tinypic.com/vzkdu9.jpg
Over 15,000 Served!

http://www.torahview.com/bris/

Vessper

05-09-2009, 05:20 PM

So disgusting..
Who said anyone is in favour of circumsicion?
I'm not and I think Ogenoct is not neither.
If you don't have anything else to say then stop posting.

PvtTitus

05-09-2009, 05:25 PM

So disgusting..
Who said anyone is in favour of circumsicion?
I'm not and I think Ogenoct is not neither.
If you don't have anything else to say then stop posting.

Squirt a few more and answer the questions:

One more time. What do non arab (semite - from Shem) have to do with European Poles, Russians, Germans, and Hungarian Talmudists?

Vessper

05-09-2009, 05:43 PM

Squirt a few more and answer the questions:

One more time. What do non arab (semite - from Shem) have to do with European Poles, Russians, Germans, and Hungarian Talmudists?
What you mean with "non arab (semite - from Shem)?. Some European Poles, Russians, Germans and Hungarians are Jewish.
I don't understeand what you are asking..

New Scientist

05-10-2009, 02:37 AM

So disgusting..
Who said anyone is in favour of circumsicion?
I'm not and I think Ogenoct is not neither.
If you don't have anything else to say then stop posting.

yeh circumcision is crap. After 30 you start to get a little too rough with the ladies due to losing sensitivity. I have had to have procedure reversed.

Vessper

05-10-2009, 05:49 AM

yeh circumcision is crap. After 30 you start to get a little too rough with the ladies due to losing sensitivity. I have had to have procedure reversed.
I didn't know one could have procedure reversed, I'm not circumsized.
And yes, I guess most of us agree, circumsicion it's not nice.

ogenoct

05-10-2009, 08:32 AM

Imagine baby ogenoct's first pain and pleasure.

I am not circumcised, and I do not approve of circumcision. You are just playing the VNN card of accusing people you disagree with of being Jewish. Boring.

Frank

05-11-2009, 01:16 AM

And what about those European non-Jews who have this genetic structure?

We call them Arabs. The closest gentile group to Jewish populations are Semitic Arabs.

No, they are not. I don't know what you mean with Asian Jews (there are different kinds), but Ashkenazi Jews are not closer to Falashas than the rest of the Europeans. It's just not true. It would be actually stupid, where did you see a Black Ashkenazi or a White Falasha?

One example would be the Lemba whom share the unique genetic markers of the Cohanim; these are African Jews and they share a lineage with non-African Jews foreign to other populations.

But well, I say for fourth time, we should focus on anthropology instead of genetic comparation since genes are not exact (I already said it, genes are not that exact, Poles don't have just a marker that says "Pole", it's about aproximation).

The studies strike me as very detailed and exact; it would be foolish to ignore the genetics as it delves into the attitudes of Jewish populations who are nationalistic in their breeding habits.

Frank

05-11-2009, 01:20 AM

Right, because you never cut and paste. Lol!

The difference is I can intelligently debate the issues that contain my cut and pastes. All you have proven is that you can go to philosemitic websites and post excerpts of others people work without having any understanding of what you are posting.

I think Mr. Graf went far too easy on you. I would go a step further and say that you are ranting pseudo-intellectual who believes his crap does not stink! Of course I can understand your believing such a thing since crap is all you seem to spew.

I think you are the clown here. I suggest you reread what I posted and then get back to me. Reading is a skill...

When an idiot calls me a clown; I take the label for what it is worth.

Intellectual

05-11-2009, 01:49 AM

Russian Jews are just one more Russian group, and there is a lot of groups them, all of them Russian.

Russians and Jews are farthest apart.

Southern Italians and Greeks have more J2, DNA to be similar to Jews.

Jews are 20% J Y-DNA. Russians don't have that gene. Southern Italians, Turks and Greeks do.

Boleslaw

05-11-2009, 02:02 AM

Yes, Jews are white. So what?

Vessper

05-11-2009, 06:09 PM

We call them Arabs. The closest gentile group to Jewish populations are Semitic Arabs.
Well they are not Arabs. It's unfair to talk about them as Arabs since they aren't.

Yes, Jews are white. So what?
It's just an affirmation, since a lot of people here think that they aren't.

Warka

05-26-2009, 05:22 AM

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/132/zeevowned.jpg

Bulan

05-26-2009, 05:37 AM

A legume {which a peanut is} is a simple dry fruit which develops from a simple carpel and usually dehisces (opens along a seam) on two sides. A common name for this type of fruit is a "pod", although pod is also applied to a few other fruit types. A peanut is not a nut in the botanical sense; a peanut is an indehiscent legume, that is, one whose pod does not split open on its own. (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_a_peanut_a_vegetable_or_a_fruit)

Peanuts are a fruit, therefore peanut butter is neither a vegetable, nor a vegetable product.

Petyr Baelish

05-26-2009, 04:05 PM

Ashkenazic Jews consistently and invariably cluster with Levantine Semtic and Iranian populations (Arabs, Kurds, Persians, Turks, etc...) in every study of autosomal and sex-specific-DNA markers that I am aware of. As far as their appearance is concerned, the picture is much more complicated with anything ranging from a large minority to a small majority being able to conceivably 'pass' for Central or Southern Europeans. This is likely due to over a thousand years of selective pressures that favored the survival and reproductionof progressively more European-looking Jews. And yes, nowadays Jews are consider White though historically this has not been the case, but, as I am sure others has already pointed out, the term 'white' has historically been used in an almost exclusively colonial context to refer to the direct descendants of the first British settlers of North America, and those who were the fastest to assimilate into that group (that is, members of kindred Protestant NW European groups).

Warka

06-04-2009, 01:59 AM

8d__MYNNoug

Warka

06-04-2009, 02:01 AM

7iSrGQ1cwxM

elbwgreez

06-04-2009, 02:38 AM

7iSrGQ1cwxM

He must be a self-hating white.

Petyr Baelish

06-04-2009, 11:56 AM

I've spoken to perhaps a dozen Hasidic Jews, including one who's been a friend for a while and whom I personally know to be quite racist against American blacks, proposing the following dilemma. Suppose your daughter (if you don't have a daughter, assume for the sake of argument, that you do) comes up to you, and tells you "Dad, I am in love with two men, and I must make a choice - I will marry the one on whom you will confer your blessing." One of the men is a very successful, highly intelligent WASP. The other is more or less a loser, a convicted criminal, whose only redeeming feature (in Jewish eyes, at least) is that he is a Falasha, and by Halackic law, Jewish. Which one would you chose? Every single one responded, with virtually no hesitation, that the Falasha's Jewishness would trump all other germane concerns they may have, and would make him the only choice they could, as observant Jews, make.

I've seem some around here make the claim that Ashkenazic Jews would side with white gentiles in a hypothetical 'Sephardi vs. Gentile" dispute. People who can make such ridiculous claims in full seriousness have obviously had only the most superficial interaction with Jews. Among most Jews, as among many other 'white' groups, ethnic and religious loyalty certainly takes wide precedence over any allegiance to a taxon as vague and ill-defined as 'White', and I don't see how it can be any other way. The Catholic Italians and Irish, for instance, very often behave in a manner that is almost completely antithetical to the interests of the larger 'white' group, and perhaps even their own interests as white, but certainly in line with what one would expect from them as Catholics; and of course, the fact that the Protestants and Catholics of Northern Ireland and the Croats and Serbs of the former Yugoslavia slaughter each other over trivial matters with wild enthusiasm seems to show that oftentimes, who goes to heaven or hell trumps who is whose son or brother.

As an option on government forms, the term 'White' is simply a clever device to make census-takers' and statisticians' jobs easier. On the other hand, as a denonym denoting ethnic affiliation, it's still almost as exclusive as it was in the 1920s. Few groups, save of course the WASPs themselves, the French, other NW Europeans, and the Germans, can be considered truly white in the full sense of the word. If your ethnic group continues to hyphenate after three generations in North America, chances are you are not it.

ogenoct

06-29-2009, 07:20 AM

You like us because, being Portuguese and Comtadins, we do not form part of the accursed race. And we do not. We had nothing to do with the judicial crime committed against Christ. . . . you Latins have good reason to like us Latin Jews, because we are as much part of the Latin race as the Greeks and Saracens were in Provence and Sicily. Nor are we half-breeds, any more than those heterogeneous individuals who were mixed with the Romans during the great invasions. Furthermore, we are the best propagators of Latinity. After all, is not Spanish, for the most part, the language spoken in the Jewish areas of Bulgaria and Tunisia?
-- Apollinaire, "The Latin Jew"

///M power

06-29-2009, 08:24 AM

"Jews of today(kids,teens) are very different, there is a very high mixing between ashkenazi Jews and other Europeans, if you see young Jews today, they look very different from the old generation which had a more specific type of looks, some may call it Jewish looks. in the last 20 years heavy mixing occurs and Jews get even more "European" type of looks. Green and blue eyes are not rare here among young people. Mixing occurs in Israel as well between Israelis to Russians, there are lots and lots of Russians here.
I was always interested in this subject, was wondering why the old ashkeanzi Jews had a certain type of look and the young generation has less of that and much much more European appearance and I researched it a lot and found out that after WWII Jews started being less segregated in their communities and started mixing with gentiles. This phenomena was on the rise and still on the rise. The more time passes by, the more "European" the Ashkeanzi Jews look like."

http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=49574

ogenoct

06-29-2009, 08:40 AM

///M power

06-29-2009, 09:06 AM

This is, of course, an excellent development. Do you support it?
I do. As long as it's out of "free choice" and personal decision. I don't believe governments should decide for people who should they marry and who not to.

ogenoct

06-29-2009, 09:16 AM

I don't believe governments should decide for people who should they marry and who not to.

I agree. I also believe in freedom of association.

TheOne

06-29-2009, 11:31 PM

How did I create a strawman?

The researchers found that the mtDNA of some 3.5 of the 8 million Ashkenazi Jews in the world can be traced back to only four women carrying distinct mtDNA of a type virtually absent in other populations. Non-Ashkenazi Jews also carry low frequencies of these distinct mtDNA types, providing evidence of shared maternal ancestry of Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Jews. This is consistent with previous findings based on studies of the Y-chromosome, pointing to a similar pattern of shared paternal ancestry of global Jewish populations, originating in the Near East. The researchers concluded that the four founding mtDNA – likely of Middle Eastern origin – underwent a major overall expansion in Europe during the last millennium.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060117083446.htm

It certainly appears that what I said matches up to the words of "Science Daily"...

This is a silly argument; arguing that there is genetic variation between all humans does not negate the fact that Jewish populations share genetic codes absent in other gentile populations namely European populations; they actually do share many signatures with Middle Eastern Arabs but not Europeans.

Allow me to quote "Science Daily" once again:

The study also revealed that despite the complex history of Jewish migration in the Diaspora (the time since 556 B.C. when Jews migrated out of Palestine), Jewish communities have generally not intermixed with non-Jewish populations. If they had, then Jewish men from different regions of the world would not share the same genetic signatures in their Y chromosome.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm

Nothing I have stated is scientifically incorrect....

Great reply, jews are not white, they are a plague on white nations, the pro-white jews are only pro white because they want whites to die in wars for Israel and the other pro white jews are pro white because they want to follow whites around and leech off them. All jews need to be expelled from European lands and countries createad by whites, I don't care how "white" looking they are.

calvin

06-29-2009, 11:49 PM

"White" is an ethnicity. Ethnicity is defined by a conflation of several factors including, history, culture, genes and group perception. Even if Jews shared a genetic profile with White people, which they don't, they would not be White because they fail to conform to the other factors. What's wrong with being Jewish BTW, why do they want to be White?

Vessper

06-30-2009, 12:29 AM

"White" is an ethnicity.

No, "White" is a race. "German" or "Irish" is an ethnicy.

Ethnicity is defined by a conflation of several factors including, history, culture, genes and group perception. Even if Jews shared a genetic profile with White people, which they don't, they would not be White because they fail to conform to the other factors. What's wrong with being Jewish BTW, why do they want to be White?

History: Jews always played an important part in Europe, Khazaria saved Europe from Arab invasion (read Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe", Jewish Bolshevism defeated Hitler, who wanted to conquer Europe and destroy not just the European Jews, but the Polish nation as a whole. Actually, most Poles admit that the old Poland died when the Jews were gone. Read Paul Kriwaczek's "Yiddish Civilization" for more information on that.

Culture: Here you might want to read not just Kriwaczek's book but Wexler's books. Yiddish is a Slavo-German language. Yiddish culture helped to shape (and was always part of) European culture and viceversa. Judaism was actually imported into Europe, just like Christianity.

Genes: Read my posts on this thread. I already explained about genes, don't make me go over it again. By the way, I don't know why do you all trust genes so much, it's not that genes have a "White" label or something.

Group perception: In the USA, more than 90% of those who are "Jews by religion" categorize themselves as "White". Under 10% categorize themselves as non-White, probably Ethiopian (Black) and Arab Jews.
Here is the article: http://www.forward.com/articles/10985/

What's wrong with being Jewish BTW, why do they want to be White?

There's nothing wrong with being Jewish, Jews are both White and Jewish.