Asiatic features in Russians?

[Transcendentally Challenged]

Here are some of the most famous Russians. Many people have commented that Russians have typical 'asiatic cheekbones' or 'eyelid folds' or some of that stuff - perhaps, I'm missing something.

http://www.cosmoworld.ru/spaceencyclopedia/gagarin/gagarin100.jpg

Gagarin. First man in space. Looks much like Mickey Rourke, if you ask me.

http://www.ruvr.ru/files/Image/RiaNovosti_foto/Putin/V_Putin.JPG

Putin.

http://www.rustrana.ru/articles/1509/IMGL1.gif

Khruschchev.

http://zhushya.narod.ru/liders/horkina/horkina_005.jpg

Svetlana Khorkina, a gymnast.

http://www.astrologanna.com/LeoTolstoy1.jpg

Tolstoi.

http://www.tonnel.ru/gzl/16039546_tonnel.gif

Dostoevsky.

[Transcendentally Challenged]

http://6chuvstvo.pereprava.org/0507/suvorov1.jpg

Russian general, Suvorov.

http://n-europe.eu/content/uploads/2007/04/kutuzov.jpg

Another Russian general, Kutuzov.

[Petr]

Boris Yeltsin was a very Asiatic-looking Russian.

[Empress Cheesatine]

Brezhnev is Asiatic to me


http://harikumar.brinkster.net/PAPER/March2003/Brezhnev.JPG

[OVERWATCH]

Yana Batyrshina (http://www.superanekdot.narod.ru/foto/batyrshina/01.jpg)

[Mike Jahn]

Yana Batyrshina (http://www.superanekdot.narod.ru/foto/batyrshina/01.jpg)

Yana (Yanina) Batyrshina (Russian:Яна (Янина) Фархадовна Батыршина, born October 07, 1979 in Tashkent, Uzbek SSR, Soviet Union) is a former Individual Rhythmic Gymnast. She competed for Russia. She was born to Tatar father and Jewish mother.

[Empress Cheesatine]

Yana (Yanina) Batyrshina (Russian:Яна (Янина) Фархадовна Батыршина, born October 07, 1979 in Tashkent, Uzbek SSR, Soviet Union) is a former Individual Rhythmic Gymnast. She competed for Russia. She was born to Tatar father and Jewish mother.

Mongoloid, essentially, and you can see it in her.


The original Tatars inhabited the north-eastern Gobi in the 5th century and, after subjugation in the 9th century by the Khitans, migrated southward. In the 12th century, they were subjugated by the Mongol Empire under Genghis Khan. Under the leadership of his grandson Batu Khan, they moved westwards, driving with them many stems of the Turkic Ural-Altayans towards the plains of Russia.

[Hartmann von Aue]

http://i43.tinypic.com/15ysvhy.jpg

[Gummo]

http://images.askmen.com/galleries/model/anna-kournikova/pictures/anna-kournikova-picture-1.jpg

[Captain Marinesko]

People forget that a large part of what is now European Russia, was once Turkic/Finno-Ugric land. Some people with Russian names and who call themselves Russian look slightly Asiatic, while there are Tatars who are blond-haired and blue eyed.


NOTE: Modern day "Tatars" are not the Tatars who came from Northern China, as the ignorant Cheesypie suggests. They are largely the remnants of the Volga Bulgars. Tatars are almost impossible to identify by looks alone.

[Petr]

NOTE: Modern day "Tatars" are not the Tatars who came from Northern China, as the ignorant Cheesypie suggests. They are largely the remnants of the Volga Bulgars. Tatars are almost impossible to identify by looks alone.
Charles Bronson's father was a descendant of those Tatars who settled in the Polish Commonwealth:

"Bronson was born in the Ehrenfeld, Pennsylvania coal-mining neighborhood of Scooptown in the Pittsburgh Tri-State area. He was the 11th of 15 children born to a Lithuanian Tatar immigrant father and a Lithuanian-American mother. His father was from the Lithuanian town of Druskininkai."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bronson#Biography

His facial features were indeed like what one would expect an Eurasian Mestizo to look like:

http://www.kultura-extra.de/film/feuilleton/pic/charles_bronson.jpg


Here's more on Polish Tatars, presented by one pretty White-looking fellow:

5FBNvXFoyTk


Petr

[Transcendentally Challenged]

Brezhnev is Asiatic to me


http://harikumar.brinkster.net/PAPER/March2003/Brezhnev.JPG

As I've said, he's Ukrainian. A typical Dinarid mixture.

[Transcendentally Challenged]

http://bvi.rusf.ru/fanta/foto/ochsim01.jpg

Oksana Simonova, an actress.

http://home-video.ru/home-video/person/004300/004364.jpg

Yelena Yakovleva, another actress. Now this one looks typically Russian.

[Transcendentally Challenged]

People forget that a large part of what is now European Russia, was once Turkic/Finno-Ugric land. Some people with Russian names and who call themselves Russian look slightly Asiatic, while there are Tatars who are blond-haired and blue eyed.


Finno-Ugrics are an essential element that along with Slavs is what creates a Russian ethnos.

Most of those who you consider 'slightly asiatic' live in Southern parts of Ukraine/Russia and got their peculiar features not from tatars or mongols, but contacts with the Dinarid and Med race.

[Gummo]

http://home-video.ru/home-video/person/004300/004364.jpg

Yelena Yakovleva, another actress. Now this one looks typically Russian.

She looks like Judith Light from "Who's The Boss?"

[Tellurocrat]

Looks Asian (almost Inuit) here:

http://stmonica.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/solzhenitsyn_b.jpg

and European here:

http://bfgb.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/solz1.jpg

So sometimes it's merely a question of perspective.

[Transcendentally Challenged]

http://www.univer.omsk.su/omsk/human/zhuk.gif

Marshal Zhukov.

http://www.tonnel.ru/gzl/655686778_tonnel.gif

Marshal Konev.

http://www.tonnel.ru/gzl/833057738_tonnel.gif

Earl and General-Fieldmarshal Rumjantsev-Zadunaiski

[Tellurocrat]

Marshal Konev.

http://www.tonnel.ru/gzl/833057738_tonnel.gif

Earl and General-Fieldmarshal Rumjantsev-Zadunaiski
Is that a cranial defect, or bad, um, perspective?

[Transcendentally Challenged]

Looks Asian (almost Inuit) here:

and European here:

So sometimes it's merely a question of perspective.

This is true.

Also, facial features change not only from race to race and ethnicity to ethnicity, but also depending on the age.

For example, many Nordic children are born with epicanthic fold, which disappears as they grow up.

[Transcendentally Challenged]

http://www.pravkniga.ru/pictures/kniga/lomonosov.jpg

Lomonosov, founder of the first Russian University.

http://visualrian.ru/storage/PreviewWM/1411/82/141182.jpg

World famous Russian scientist, Mendeleev.

[Kostya Novoselov]

http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/_borders/tv02.jpg

A proud member of the Russian National Bolshevik Party.

[Kostya Novoselov]

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0dKR1Qx9B5eka/610x.jpg

And the Party leader poet Eduard Limonov.

[Arrow Cross]

I'm detecting something Asian deep inside there... those eyes are just too reminiscent of a Mongol.

http://go635254.s3.amazonaws.com/planetsave/files/2009/02/greenpeace-protest2.jpg

[Kostya Novoselov]

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/02p659B2cweG0/610x.jpg

Speaker of the Russian Duma - Boris Gryzlov

[Kostya Novoselov]

http://ww2.ru/forum/uploads/photo-14369.gif

Actor Vyacherslav Tikhonov.

Also standartenfuhrer Stirlitz, a Soviet agent who infiltrated the Nazi intelligence.

He skillfully created endless conflicts between Gestapo Chief Heinrich Müller and Himmler’s deputy Walter Schellenberg, and managed not to get drunk for the duration of the war.

[Cadavre Exquis]

And the Party leader poet Eduard Limonov.
This is Limonov:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2069/2279192045_3f9577ec7b.jpg

[OVERWATCH]

http://img184.exs.cx/img184/8978/021223sciracech1yo.jpg

http://www.thephora.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16319&postcount=3

[Joe McCarthy]

Asiatic admixture in Russians is fairly significant as Coon and others have demonstrated. It's not a huge problem in my opinion but it's pointless to deny it.

Maybe those who do can be said to be inaugurating a new discipline. Call it mongrel denial.

[Lud]

http://www.mma-king.com/images/fedor_emelianenko_nyc.jpg

Growing up in the US, Fedor looks like a prototypical Rus to me.

[Gummo]

Asiatic admixture in Russians is fairly significant as Coon and others have demonstrated. It's not a huge problem in my opinion but it's pointless to deny it.

Maybe those who do can be said to be inaugurating a new discipline. Call it mongrel denial.

You Americans mixed also much with Reds and Blacks, I have no problem with that.

[Transcendentally Challenged]

Asiatic admixture in Russians is fairly significant as Coon and others have demonstrated.


You constantly make claims which you do not consider necessary to back up with quotes from sources.

Care to do this at least once?

[Kostya Novoselov]

http://netramblings.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/shostakovich.jpg

composer Dmitry Shostakovich

[Kostya Novoselov]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4f/Siberianbarber.jpg/397px-Siberianbarber.jpg

Film director Nikita Mikhalkov as Tsar Alexander the Third

[Transcendentally Challenged]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Rachmaninov.jpg

Rakhmaninov, infamous Russian composer.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Musorgskiy.jpg

Musorgsky, another famous Russian composer.

[Hippias]

Here's what Carleton Coon said:

http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-09.htm

The territory occupied by the White Russians is divided between northwestern Poland and the U.S.S.R., with more than half lying on the Russian side. Here it includes not only the White Russian S. S. Republic, but also adjoining districts in the Ukraine, in Smolensk, and to the north. The White Russians have as their neighbors Great Russians, Ukrainians, Letts, Lithuanians, and Poles; although they are Slavic in speech and in tradition, they are physically almost identical with the Lithuanians. They are slightly smaller headed than the Lithuanians, slightly wider in the distance between the eyes, and slightly less leptorrhine; their noses are a little more often concave in profile, up-tilted, and snubbed; their eye openings are more frequently narrow, their lips a little thicker, and their body and beard hair considerably less abundant. Their skins are a little darker, their hair and eyes less frequently blond. In hair color, the Fischer numbers 4, 5, 8, and 26 are the commonest, indicating a prevalence of dark to medium brown and dark ash-blond hair. In eye color, the White Russians have less than 20 per cent pure light, and no more than 10 per cent pure brown. The majority are light-mixed, as with most Slavs and Balts.

The identity or near identity of the White Russians with the Lithuanians makes it very possible that the former were at one time Balts who succumbed to Slavic influences, just as the East Prussians were Germanicized Balts. But the fact is that all of these people, Balts who have been subjected to a minimum of local influences on the Baltic shore, and Slays who have not been Germanicized, Dinaricized, or influenced by Finns, are so much alike that it is dangerous to postulate specific relationships. The White Russians, with a mean stature of 166 cm., a cephalic index of 82, a nasal index of 69, and a moderate to small head size, are simply the descendants of the Neolithic peasants, an original Mediterranean-Ladogan blend, which has reemerged through a Corded and Nordic upper crust, so that a Neo-Danubian residue is left. Among individual White Russians Nordics can be found, and semi-mongoloid-looking Ladogans, but the majority follow the Neo-Danubian pattern most closely.

[Kostya Novoselov]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Vladimir_Putin_13_March_2003-4.jpg

And his father Sergey Mikhalkov, a famous writer who also wrote words of the National Anthem of the Soviet Union.

[Joe McCarthy]

You constantly make claims which you do not consider necessary to back up with quotes from sources.

Care to do this at least once?

At least once? I regularly cite sources and links.

Rather than rely on Coon, who admittedly is an older source, I'll use this.

http://www.ancestrybydna.com/welcome/productsandservices/ancestrybydna/interpretationofresults/


For example, both we and Rosenberg et al., 2003 and have found that there is significant East Asian admixture in Russians and (from our data) some Eastern Europeans.

It's only on the order of a few percentage points, but it's not negligible by any means.

[Transcendentally Challenged]

Here's what Carleton Coon said:

http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-09.htm

Thanks, Hippias.

Just as I thought, Joe is full of nonsense, as usual.

[Transcendentally Challenged]

And his father Sergey Mikhalkov, a famous writer who also wrote words of the National Anthem of the Soviet Union.

I try to dig up pics of younger people, because the elder usually look pretty much alike, their fading physical condition resulting in semi-closed eyes, flappy skin making facial features hardly distinguishable, etc.

Compare Sakharov to Honekker

http://www.dw-world.de/image/0,,1018777_1,00.jpg

http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/52/20952-004-37E67ACC.jpg

[Kostya Novoselov]

I was also contrasting two generations of the Mikhalkovs as far as what they did and do.

[Joe McCarthy]

Thanks, Hippias.

Just as I thought, Joe is full of nonsense, as usual.

What 'nonsense' would that be?

Here are some extracts from your own link:

Individual variation in southern Russia is great; it is easy to pick out, beside the western Ukrainian forms already described and the composite type mentioned, Nordics, Dinarics, and patently mongoloid Tatar hybrids. This variability increases as one proceeds eastward into what is actually Tatar territory.


The brachycephalizing agent was not, however, the same; in Moscow it entered only in the fifteenth century, when fully brachycephalic crania appeared among examples of the older type; the former were much lower and broader faced, and broader nosed. This heterogeneity gradually decreased with the increase of the mean cranial index. There can be no question that the brachycephalizing agent was in its general character not Alpine, in the western European sense, but a separately evolved and incipiently or partially mongoloid Upper Palaeolithic derivative, whether transmitted through a Finnish or a Tatar medium, or both.

Beside the snub-nosed peasant type, one sees on the streets of Moscow Nordics who would be at home in Sweden or in England; Dinarics, Norics, and every variety of near and distant mongoloid.

[Joe McCarthy]

Another extract from Theo's link by way of Hippias.

Mixture between Russians and Tatars was not, however, frequent or important in the early days of the Tatar hegemony, when the Slays kept for the most part to their own farming environment and the Asiatic nomads to their pastures; it has taken place in greater measure during the last few centuries, in consequence of the more recent Slavic expansion eastward over Tatar territory into Siberia and Turkestan.


It might actually do to read the whole thing rather than chauvinistically try to rebut by using selective passages.

[Joe McCarthy]

Yet more from Coon, which Theo and Hippias were so kind to provide.

The conclusion to this is that the Great Russians living in Finnish territory in eastern Russia, although they have absorbed much Finnish blood, have not wholly lost their Slavic character, and have acquired fewer mongoloid or incipiently mongoloid soft part features than have the Finns.

[Captain Marinesko]

The problem is that Coon probably did not understand exactly what the word "Tatar" means in Russian history. And the understanding of the Mongol society and campaigns in general is still far from complete. Tatar is quite ambiguous in Russian history; there was a time when any Muslim group might be labeled a Tatar.

Aside from Finno-Ugrians, the "Tatars" which most Russians mixed with were the Turkic Bulgar remnants, Kypchaks, and Mishars(Volga Bulgarians living throughout European Russia). These groups are not Mongols, but Turks. Many of them had been far from the borders of the original Turkish homeland for centuries before the "Mongols" and their majority-Tatar armies showed up.

Personally I can't see why this mixing is such a big deal. What prize will Russians get if they can somehow prove themselves 100% Indo-European?

[Joe McCarthy]

The point - the only point - is that Russians have significant Asiatic admixture. That has been demonstrated by moi.

And in case you didn't get the memo: Turks are Asiatics too.

Personally I don't much care, but then I pretty much said that to start with. Theo just went and got his feelings hurt.

As for whether Coon knew what 'Tatar' meant, I'm inclined to take his view over yours, until given reason to believe otherwise.

[Captain Marinesko]

The point - the only point - is that Russians have significant Asiatic admixture. That has been demonstrated by moi.

And in case you didn't get the memo: Turks are Asiatics too.

Personally I don't much care, but then I pretty much said that to start with. Theo just went and got his feelings hurt.

As for whether Coon knew what 'Tatar' meant, I'm inclined to take his view over yours, until given reason to believe otherwise.

Yes, because you are retarded.

Now can you "demonstrate" why anyone should give a shit about said admixture?

I posed the same question to the Russians here as well.

[Joe McCarthy]

As I've said, he's Ukrainian. A typical Dinarid mixture.

To point out that Brezhnev was Ukranian conceals more than it reveals in this context. I'm sure you realize that Kievan Rus was the center of the 'Russian' world in the time of the Mongol conquest.

[Transcendentally Challenged]

Yet more from Coon, which Theo and Hippias were so kind to provide.

The only point of the thread was to discuss if Russians exhibit asiatic features, like many posters proclaim them to have.

While I never denied that Russians do have a certain admixture, I fail to see that being manifested in any prominent way with regards to their phenotype.

Hence the pictures posted here.

Finns also have asiatic admixture as stated there, but a person, claiming that he sees in finns 'epicanthic folds' or 'high cheekbones', would be viewed as an idiot.

[Hippias]

The point - the only point - is that Russians have significant Asiatic admixture. That has been demonstrated by moi.

"Asiatic admixture" is vague - that could mean caucasoid or mongoloid admixture since both races live in Asia. Let's be clear about what we're saying.

Significant is a relative term. None of the passages you quoted from Coon vindicate your statement about the level of mongloid admixture in ethnic Russians. The caucasoid element in the Tatar group is more prominent than the mongloid element, so any intermixing that went on wouldn't leave much of a mark on ethnic Russians. The brachycephalization is probably from finno-ugric populations.

[Empress Cheesatine]

You Americans mixed also much with Reds and Blacks, I have no problem with that.

Not really.

[Joe McCarthy]

"Asiatic admixture" is vague - that could mean caucasoid or mongoloid admixture since both races live in Asia. Let's be clear about what we're saying.

Significant is a relative term. None of the passages you quoted from Coon vindicate your statement about the level of mongloid admixture in ethnic Russians. The caucasoid element in the Tatar group is more prominent than the mongloid element, so any intermixing that went on wouldn't leave much of a mark on ethnic Russians. The brachycephalization is probably from finno-ugric populations.

Asiatic admixture of the sort I'm referring to means non-caucasoid. The link I provided before deals with the issue. As stated, it's on the order of a few percentage points, which is non-negligible and therefore significant.

Frankly, I'm wondering why you guys even bothered to challenge this.

[Joe McCarthy]

More from the site I used earlier:

East Asian affiliation in Russians and Eastern Europeans
Our test commonly shows low levels of East Asian affiliation for Russians and Eastern Europeans, on the order of a few percent. Others looking at Y-chromosome haplotypes and using different affiliation tests have seen the same thing:


Underhill et al., 2001 showed considerable fraction of Western/Central Asian Y-chromosome haplotypes were of East Asian origin (see Figure UNDERHILL ). In contrast, an insignificant number of East Asian Y-haplotypes were found in Western European populations.
Rosenberg et al., 2002 showed a systematic East Asian affiliation for Russians, similar to our results, on the order of a few percent or so (see Figure ROSENBERG , K=4, for Russians). As with Underhill, no significant East Asian affiliation was found for Western Europeans.

[Joe McCarthy]

One comment of Hippias' bears refutation:

None of the passages you quoted from Coon vindicate your statement about the level of mongloid admixture in ethnic Russians.

From Coon:

Individual variation in southern Russia is great; it is easy to pick out, beside the western Ukrainian forms already described and the composite type mentioned, Nordics, Dinarics, and patently mongoloid Tatar hybrids.

There can be no question that the brachycephalizing agent was in its general character not Alpine, in the western European sense, but a separately evolved and incipiently or partially mongoloid Upper Palaeolithic derivative, whether transmitted through a Finnish or a Tatar medium, or both.

Beside the snub-nosed peasant type, one sees on the streets of Moscow Nordics who would be at home in Sweden or in England; Dinarics, Norics, and every variety of near and distant mongoloid

[Joe McCarthy]

I suppose it's useful to highlight Hippias' own initial post on this subject:

Among individual White Russians Nordics can be found, and semi-mongoloid looking Ladogans, but the majority follow the Neo-Danubian pattern most closely.

[Transcendentally Challenged]

Joe, look at the name of the thread and stop spamming.

[Joe McCarthy]

You take defeat poorly.

[Cadavre Exquis]

It might actually do to read the whole thing rather than chauvinistically try to rebut by using selective passages.
You should try this yourself sometime, Joe.

http://www.ancestrybydna.com/welcome/productsandservices/ancestrybydna/interpretationofresults/
The pink ancestors are “Russian”, which for the purposes here we will assume are an ethnicity that arose about 18,000 years ago. The red spots are East Asian and we assume here that the average Russian harbors 10% East Asian admixture. The gray spots are the precursors to Russians (whoever they might have been – lets say Eastern Europeans).
Where does this assumption come from? Having looked at Rosenberg et al. (2002) & (2003) (http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/300/5627/1877c), neither mention anything about significant Asiatic admixture in Russians. The 2002 paper does divide populations by distinctive allele frequencies - however this does not say anything about the origin of those alleles. At K=4, 4 distinct groupings are used (African, European, Asian and Amerind) and the Russian does show higher levels of 'Asian' alleles than other European populations that were tested. However, these groupings are too large - where would Finno-Ugric populations fall? Also, the sample of Russians taken is rather small (20 or so). These are both significant problems. It is not as simple as you (so frequently) make it out to be.

By the way, the researchers from ancestrybydna.com apparently found that the Pennsylvania Dutch may also have East Asian admixture.
In this case, the particular German antecedents that founded some of the PA German (aka PA Dutch) community may have been of substantial average East Asian admixture, which may have been due to sampling from within a more heterogeneous German population (i.e. a founder effect).

[Transcendentally Challenged]

http://www.rusk.ru/images/2005/2093.jpg

Russian philosopher Solovjev.

http://www.rulex.ru/rpg/WebPict/fullpic/1031-161.jpg

Russian thinker and writer Chernishevsky.

[Joe McCarthy]

Well, suffice it to say that neither of us is really competent to comment on this. It's best to defer to the experts. I'll personally take their findings over chauvinistic Russians who would no doubt find 'problems' with any finding not to their liking.

[Transcendentally Challenged]

To point out that Brezhnev was Ukranian conceals more than it reveals in this context. I'm sure you realize that Kievan Rus was the center of the 'Russian' world in the time of the Mongol conquest.

What does that have to do with anything?

Mongols didn't actually cohabitate to any great extenct with the conquered populations so this example is irrelevant.

While Ukrainians draw their different features from Southern Ukraine which has always had Dinarid populations.

[Cadavre Exquis]

Well, suffice it to say that neither of us is really competent to comment on this. It's best to defer to the experts. I'll personally take their findings over chauvinistic Russians who would no doubt find 'problems' with any finding not to their liking.
Ever graceful in defeat, Joe.

:respek:

[Transcendentally Challenged]

Well, suffice it to say that neither of us is really competent to comment on this. It's best to defer to the experts. I'll personally take their findings over chauvinistic Russians who would no doubt find 'problems' with any finding not to their liking.

What you do interests very few people except yourself, I believe.

The arguement is mainly for the sake of the audience.

And for the audience, I'll add that resorting to 'experts' without being capable of explaining why their opinion is actually more preferred in view of a counter arguement, is a false line of arguementation.

You take defeat poorly.

[Joe McCarthy]

What does that have to do with anything?

Mongols didn't actually cohabitate to any great extenct with the conquered populations so this example is irrelevant.

While Ukrainians draw their different features from Southern Ukraine which has always had Dinarid populations.

Your saying that Brezhnev was Ukranian gives a misleading impression as there was no real distinction in the time the Mongols arrived. And obviously there is mongoloid admixture in the Ukranians. This 'mongrel denial' is ridiculous. In fact, I think I'll quit posting on this thread.

[Transcendentally Challenged]

Your saying that Brezhnev was Ukranian gives a misleading impression as there was no real distinction in the time the Mongols arrived. And obviously there is mongoloid admixture in the Ukranians. This 'mongrel denial' is ridiculous. In fact, I think I'll quit posting on this thread.

:rofl: Chickenhawk Joe first bursted into the thread then bravely ran away.

[Hartmann von Aue]

By the way, the researchers from ancestrybydna.com apparently found that the Pennsylvania Dutch may also have East Asian admixture.

Probably from American Indians.

[Gummo]

Not really.

I believe that you mixed more with Blacks than Russians did with Mongols.

I can post thousands of pictures with so-called "mongrels" from the USA.

So better think twice before you point with the finger at others.

[Cadavre Exquis]

Probably from American Indians.
Perhaps, though the claim is that it comes from an earlier time:
That some people, or sub-groups, within the Pennsylvania Deutsch/German (aka PA Dutch) ethnic group may have a small but detectable percentage of Asian genetic content in their genome, of non-recent origin in a genealogist's time frame, possibly introduced into their ancestor's genomes from the major invasions of southern Germany by tribes from Asia such as the Huns and Mongol hordes which invaded Europe at various times during the period of 1600-700 years ago, or of even older more ancient origin such as from the Scythians, or all of these sources. These Asian genetic markers from invasion and gene flow from the east were then brought to Pennsylvania with the founding populations of the Pennsylvania Deutsch.
http://www.kerchner.com/pa-gerdna.htm

Either way, I doubt that it is at all significant.

[Petyr Baelish]

Here's what Carleton Coon said:

http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-09.htm

First, the term "White Russians" refers to be Belarussians, who, thought very similar to Russians are, nevertheless, a different ethnic group. Second, Coon is indescribably outdated. Soviet anthropologists had refuted most of the theories he posited, such as his belief in the Middle Eastern origin of Nordics and the hubrid Cro-Magnon/Neanderthal origin of indigenous Northern European type in the early 20s. The more germane point of course is that Coon has access to only a very limited amount of anthropometric data from Russia; a complete picture of the racial type of ethnic Russian did not emerge until the Russian Anthropological Expedition, which was conducted in 1959 and sampled 17, 000 individuals.

[Petyr Baelish]

Your saying that Brezhnev was Ukranian gives a misleading impression as there was no real distinction in the time the Mongols arrived. And obviously there is mongoloid admixture in the Ukranians. This 'mongrel denial' is ridiculous. In fact, I think I'll quit posting on this thread.

The point is there is a very real ethnic distinction between Russians and Ukrainians, and to take a Ukrainian and claim him as an example of a "Mongol mixed Russian" is as misleading as claiming that Bjork's phenotype is proof of Mongoloid admixture in Swedes.

[Petyr Baelish]

It's only on the order of a few percentage points, but it's not negligible by any means.

In that case, let's compare what autosomal DNA data tells us about the level of Mongoloid admixture in Americans and Russians, and see whose is more significant:

The sample of African Americans from Washington D.C. shows a significantly higher European contribution than the African Caribbean sample from Britain (18.6%±1.5% vs 10.2%±1.4%). In both samples, the native American contribution is small, with the 95% confidence intervals overlapping 0.0 (Washington, D.C.: 2.7%; African Caribbeans: 1.9%). In European Americans from State College, the west African and native American genetic contribution are low (0.7% and 3.2%, respectively).
Source (http://dienekes.50webs.com/blog/archives/000090.html)

Compare this to an autosomal DNA study that investigated the level of Mongoloid genetic admixture in Russians of the Vologda region. Keep in mind that Vologda is a historically Finno-Ugric area in Northeastern Russia (as recently as the late 19th century much of the population still spoke Finno-Ugric languages) :


At present, the only study which studied the genomic study of a Slavic sample of Russians (Science 20 December 2002: Vol. 298. no. 5602, pp. 2381 - 2385) determined a 93% membership coefficient in the main Caucasoid cluster, with a 3% membership in the main (East Asian) Mongoloid cluster. Unfortunately Central Asian Turkic and Finno-Ugrian populations from Europe and Asia were not sampled.
Source (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/11/mongoloid-components-in-eastern-europe.html)

There you have it. The level of Mongoloid admixture appears to be roughly the same in white Americans and Northern Russians. Since Amerindians are morphologically closer to Caucasoids, Amerindian admixture modifies a Europid phenotype somewhat less than an equivalent amount of Asiatic Mongoloid admixture, but it's non-Europid nevertheless. In addition to that, of course, Americans have close to 1% Negroid admixture which is next to nonexistent in Russians. So, if the Mongoloid admixture in Russians is not negligible (~3% does strike me as negligible by most definitions of the term), as Joe claims, he should be willing to admit that neither is the Mongoloid (Amerindian) admixture in white Americans.

[Petyr Baelish]

Your saying that Brezhnev was Ukranian gives a misleading impression as there was no real distinction in the time the Mongols arrived. And obviously there is mongoloid admixture in the Ukranians. This 'mongrel denial' is ridiculous. In fact, I think I'll quit posting on this thread.

Joe, do you understand the difference between ethnic Russians and people who are Russian only by citizenship?

[Petyr Baelish]

By the way, the researchers from ancestrybydna.com apparently found that the Pennsylvania Dutch may also have East Asian admixture.

If you read the letters to AncestryByDNA, you'll find loads of confused Finns, Scandinavians and Germans writing in to clarify why their results show unreasonably high levels of East Asian admixture. The fact of the matter is that the test they use is simply not very accurate.

[Petyr Baelish]

I once read that the Epicanthal fold came from the Mongol Invasion.

The frequency of epicanthic eyefolds in the ethnic Russian population is extremely low; in a sample of 8,500 men, the epicanthic eyefold was found in 12 instances (~0.14%). It's an unambiguous indicator of Mongoloid ancestry, but not necessarily Mongol. Three-fourths of these cases of epicanthus were found among Northeastern Russian groups, which makes it far more likely that the vast majority of the little Mongoloid admixture that Russian have comes not from Mongols but from assimilating indigenous Finno-Ugric tribes. By the way, for comparison purposes, here is how common the epicanthic eyefold is in various Baltic ethnicities:

Estonians - 2.2%

Ijores - 1.8%

Finns - 1.9%

Karelians - 1.8%

Vepses - 1.8%

Saami - 7%

Aland Swedes - 1.7%

[ogenoct]

And the Party leader poet Eduard Limonov.

This is not Limonov.

[ogenoct]

http://www.alexanderpalace.org/2006pierre/images/rasputin2.jpg

Rasputin

[Petyr Baelish]

Boris Yeltsin was a very Asiatic-looking Russian.

His face was constantly inflamed largely as a result of his alcoholism. This is how Yeltsin looked as a young man, before he pickled his liver:

http://h.ua/art/2007/04/26/39458/39458_2.jpg

Predominantly Nordic, with a bit of Lappinoid admixture. Could easily pass for a Balt or a Finn, IMHO.

[Captain Marinesko]

His face was constantly inflamed largely as a result of his alcoholism. This is how Yeltsin looked as a young man, before he pickled his liver:

http://h.ua/art/2007/04/26/39458/39458_2.jpg

Predominantly Nordic, with a bit of Lappinoid admixture.


Thanks for the photos.

See racialists? The non-Jewish Nordic manages to fuck up the largest country in the world.

Too bad he's dead- now he can't be publicly lynched.

[Petyr Baelish]

Thanks for the photos.

See racialists? The non-Jewish Nordic manages to fuck up the largest country in the world.

Too bad he's dead- now he can't be publicly lynched.

Yeltsin was a worthless piece of shit drunk, but the blame for the Soviet Union's demise and Russia's subsequent economic collapse does not rest on his shoulders alone.

[Captain Marinesko]

Yeltsin was a worthless piece of shit drunk, but the blame for the Soviet Union's demise and Russia's subsequent economic collapse does not rest on his shoulders alone.


Of course not, there is also Gorbachev, other top leaders in key positions, and of course the Russian people, particularly in European Russia, who were completely oblivious to reality.

[Transcendentally Challenged]

The blame lies solely on the people, who didn't mob lynch the whole of the ex-Soviet government from local raikom secretaries to Secretary General.

So the bastards quickly self re-vitalized and got on top again.

It is not the collapse of the economics that happened one that's terrible. It is, that the collapse is happening AGAIN and AGAIN. Due to Apparatchiks following the same old same old economical plan, effective since Brezhnev - 'oil worship'.

[Petyr Baelish]

The most thoroughly "Tatarized" ethnic Russian population was the nobility, which, ironically, many Nazis exalt as some kind of paragon of Germanic racial purity lording over a mass of half-Tatar half-Finn peasants. The entire Tatar nobility was Christianized and Russified in the 17th century, contributing perhaps close to a third of the total bloodlines of the Russian aristocracy. Turkic surnames, if I recall correctly, were very common; as many as a quarter of Russian nobles carried them.

[Petr]

The most thoroughly "Tatarized" ethnic Russian population was the nobility, which, ironically, many Nazis exalt as some kind of paragon of Germanic racial purity lording over a mass of half-Tatar half-Finn peasants. The entire Tatar nobility was Christianized and Russified in the 17th century, contributing perhaps close to a third of the total bloodlines of the Russian aristocracy. Turkic surnames, if I recall correctly, were very common; as many as a quarter of Russian nobles carried them.
Like the family of the killer of Rasputin, Prince Felix Yusupov:

In the 14th century Edigu, a Tatar from the Manghit tribe and one of Tamerlane's greatest strategists, settled on the south shores of the Black Sea, establishing the Nogai Horde and laying the foundations for the Crimean Khanate. Edigu's death was followed by infighting between his descendants, until, in the 15th century, Khan Yusuf became the head of the Nogai Horde.

Khan Yusuf allied himself with Tsar Ivan the Terrible, but the former allies eventually became enemies. Khan Yusuf's daughter Sumbecca was Queen of Kazan, and when Kazan was razed by Ivan, Khan Yusuf's daughter was taken as prisoner to Moscow. After Khan Yusuf died, another period of infighting between his descendants followed until the 17th century, when Abdul Mirza, another descendant, converted to Orthodoxy under the name of Dmitry. After the conversion, Tsar Feodor I bestowed upon him the title of Prince Yusupov.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Yusupov

http://www.all-science-fair-projects.com/science_fair_projects_encyclopedia/upload/5/5a/Yussupov.jpg

Felix Yusupov


Petr

[Vessper]

So...what's the conclussion?
Which Russians, if any, have Asian admixture?
In my opinion they still White European. Though, some of the eastern ones may have some admixture, that's why I'm asking.

[Petyr Baelish]

So...what's the conclussion?
Which Russians, if any, have Asian admixture?
In my opinion they still White European. Though, some of the eastern ones may have some admixture, that's why I'm asking.

First of all, the meaning of the word 'Russian' needs to be clarified. There are over a hundred distinct ethnic groups in Russia, who represent, in terms of racial diversity, the entire Europid and most of the Mongoloid racial spectrum. These groups range from the Mordva Erzya, who are closer in appearance to central Norwegians than to any surrounding group, to the Buryats, who are almost pure representatives of the Mongoloid race. To treat these diverse peoples as a unity is as absurd as treating WASPs and Black Americans as a single breeding population, and using the Negroid racial character of the latter as evidence of admixture in the former. If we limit our discussion only to the Great Russian ethnic group (velikorossy, russkije), there is absolutely no question that they have some Asiatic admixture. What's debatable is it's origin and it's magnitude. Contrary to the popular belief, most of the very small Mongoloid substratum in ethnic Russians does not come from 'Mongol rapes', but rather from the peaceful assimilation of Finno-Ugric tribes as Slavic colonists expanded northward and eastward - that is why Mongoloid admixture in Russians is concentrated in the North and the East. Moreover, this admixture appears to be quite negligible - almost certainly in the lower single percentage points, as both genetic and morphological data attest. If anyone has data to the contrary, they should definitely post it, but I would prefer evidence of higher quality that pictures of 'Russians' of questionable or unknown ethnicity or citations from anthropological books that were already obsolete by the 1930s. And "this person looks weird" is not an indicator of racial admixture, either.

[Mackie]

His face was constantly inflamed largely as a result of his alcoholism. This is how Yeltsin looked as a young man, before he pickled his liver:

http://h.ua/art/2007/04/26/39458/39458_2.jpg

Predominantly Nordic, with a bit of Lappinoid admixture. Could easily pass for a Balt or a Finn, IMHO.
Woah. Youre right, other than being a bit dark he did look surprisingly finnish. :indifferent:

[Vessper]

First of all, the meaning of the word 'Russian' needs to be clarified. There are over a hundred distinct ethnic groups in Russia, who represent, in terms of racial diversity, the entire Europid and most of the Mongoloid racial spectrum. These groups range from the Mordva Erzya, who are closer in appearance to central Norwegians than to any surrounding group, to the Buryats, who are almost pure representatives of the Mongoloid race. To treat these diverse peoples as a unity is as absurd as treating WASPs and Black Americans as a single breeding population, and using the Negroid racial character of the latter as evidence of admixture in the former. If we limit our discussion only to the Great Russian ethnic group (velikorossy, russkije), there is absolutely no question that they have some Asiatic admixture. What's debatable is it's origin and it's magnitude. Contrary to the popular belief, most of the very small Mongoloid substratum in ethnic Russians does not come from 'Mongol rapes', but rather from the peaceful assimilation of Finno-Ugric tribes as Slavic colonists expanded northward and eastward - that is why Mongoloid admixture in Russians is concentrated in the North and the East. Moreover, this admixture appears to be quite negligible - almost certainly in the lower single percentage points, as both genetic and morphological data attest. If anyone has data to the contrary, they should definitely post it, but I would prefer evidence of higher quality that pictures of 'Russians' of questionable or unknown ethnicity or citations from anthropological books that were already obsolete by the 1930s. And "this person looks weird" is not an indicator of racial admixture, either.

Ok, thanks. Do you have any information about the distinct Russian ethnicies and their racial types?. I'm really interested on it.

[Petyr Baelish]

Ok, thanks. Do you have any information about the distinct Russian ethnicies and their racial types?. I'm really interested on it.

If I had to sum up the differences between Western Europeans and Russians in two pictures, I would use these two plates from V. V. Bunak's works (note that the second is incorrectly labeled)

Atlanto-Baltic type ("Northwest European type", if you will):
http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/327/atlantobaltic5vl.jpg

Central East European type ("Russian type" if you will):

http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/8739/centraleuropeantype6oy.jpg


As far as the population of Russia itself is concerned, there is a continuum. On one end are the very distinctly Northern European looking groups - the Erzya, the Karelians, and, to a large extent, the Russians. Some of these North Europids combine extremely high levels of blondism with attenuated Asiatic (Uralic, technically) traits. This combination of extreme blondism and incipient mongoloidity is called 'East Baltic'. The Vepses are the most typical representatives, but some Northern Russian regional groups, some western Komis, Setu Estonians, and some Karelian groups also fall within the 'East Baltic complex.' In some groups, like the Volga Tatars you'll find North Europid, South Europid, Uralic/Lappinoid and Mongoloid types represented in almost equal proportions. Somewhere in between the North Europids and the Mongoloids stands the Uralic/Lappinoid race which combines features of both large races in almost a 50/50 proportion. The most typical representatives of this race are the Saami, the Nenets, and the Voguls. Most of the Finno-Ugric groups fall somewhere along this continuum, some closer to the Uralic, some almost completely North Europid. The Turkic peoples and the Chuvashis also have South Europid and Mongoloid accretions. On the other end are the almost purely Mongoloid groups, like the Buryats and Yakuts, most of whom live in Siberia. The Tatars, Bashkirs and Chuvashis of the Volga carry some of this element, but it's technically in the minority even amongst them. There is virtually no influence from this complex even on the most peripheral Russian groups.

Soviet physical anthropology was a lot more progressive than European phys anth. of the same period, and they abandoned the typological conception of races early on in favor of regional breeding populations or 'complexes' of morphological traits, since this accords far better with our understanding of genetics. In the old European system you could have several different races - Nordics, Alpines and Meds, for instance, all in the same nuclear family. In any event, Great Russians (russkiye) fall into the 'Central East European' complex - relatively tall, mesocephalic with a large brain-case, light-pigmented (but somewhat darker than Finns and Balts), with a tendency towards decreased hair-cover. On its Northern and Eastern peripheries this complex is modified by slight Baltic and Lappinoid influence, on its Southern periphery it's modified by Mediterranean admixture (meaning that the Slavic ancestors of the Russians now living in those areas absorbed a small substratum of aboriginal populations), but overall it is very homogeneous. Here is a brief overview. If you want something more specific, just ask about the particular group that you want information on.

The Baltic complex is localized in the lower tributaries of the Neman river, the Venta river, lower tributaries of the Dvina (Daugava) River, the basin of the Gaua River, on the coast of the Bay of Finland, in the area of the Lake Chud’ and the Narva River. For this complex, high stature, light hair and eyes, large dimensions of the head and the face, brachycephaly, intermediate horizontal facial profile, a strongly projecting nose and intermediate beard growth. The complex was also extrapolated by N. N. Cheboksarov and M. V. Vitov under the label “West Baltic” in Estonia, and was classed as part of the Atlanto-Baltic group of anthropological types.

Traits that are characteristic of the Atlanto-Baltic group are widespread over a large expanse of territory. They are present in the population of almost all of Northwest Europe: Finland (Kajava, 1925) Scandinavia (Bryn, 1932; Bryn, Schreiner 1930, Lundborg, Linder, 1926), Scotland, England and Ireland (Fleure, 1923), Iceland (Ribbing, 1921) and the Faerose Islands (Iorgensen, 1902). Deniker (Denkier, 1898) finds similar types in Northern Germany, and in a few areas of France. In Eastern Europe, the Atlanto-Baltic complex is strongest among groups of Western Estonians and Latvians. Among eastern groups of Estonians and Latvians, a gracile, mesocephalic variety of this type is found, which M. V. Vitov calls the “White Sea” type, and classifies as part of the White Sea-Baltic group of types. Without disagreeing with M. V. Vitov’s classification, it should nevertheless be pointed out that the White Sea type is more similar to varieties of the Atlanto-Baltic race than the East Baltic race. The mesocpehalic variant of the Baltic morphological complex inhabits Eastern Europe, particularly its northern reaches, and is widespread among Karelians, Russians of the Northwest, Pomors, and a few groups of Northern Komi Finns.

The White Lake-Kama morphological complex is localized in the area of White Lake, in the upper tributaries of the Onega river, the Northern Dvina River and it’s tributaries, and in the basin of the Vyatka and Kama rivers. This complex is similar in pigmentation and cephalic index to the Baltic complex, but is characterized by lower stature, smaller dimensions of the head, predominance of straight and concave noses, lowered horizontal facial profile, and lowered beard growth. These traits are noted among Vepses, Ijores, Vodes, and a few groups of Northern Russians, and beyond the boundaries of Eastern Europe – in the east of Finland (Roschier, 1931). The White Lake-Kama complex, also known as the “East Baltic type” has been comprehensively described in anthropological literature, and has been categorized by N. N. Cheboksarov and M. V. Vitov as part of the White Lake-Baltic group of types.

The Valdai-Upper Dniepr complex is prevalent in the whole of the Pripyat-Dvina basin; on the banks of the Western Dvina river (especially in its middle flows), in the lower tributaries of the Neman river, on the left banks of the Peripyat’, the upper tributaries of the Dniepr, the Berezina river, the Sozh’ river and the Iput’ river. In most traits it is similar to the Baltic complex but is distinguished from it by lower absolute dimensions of the head and face, lower stature and darker hair and eye pigmentation. A similar combination of traits has been described in earlier Soviet anthropological literature and termed “Valdaic” and “Illmen-Dniepr”. It has been classified by N. N. Cheboksarov as part of the Atalnto-Black Sea group of anthropological types.

It should be noted that the Atlanto-Black Sea anthropological group, as it is proposed by the above-mentioned authors is flawed in that it is far too inclusive. In this group are included Lithuanians and Belarussians, Ukrainians, Great Russians, Mordvins, Moldavians, and even a few groups of Bulgarians, Yugoslavs, Hungarians, Austrians, Swiss, and Italians. The fact that a combination of brachycephaly, light eyes, and medium brown hair appears in both groups does not warrant including Lithuanians and Italians or Russians and Frenchmen into the same anthropological complex. In all likelihood, the authors themselves are well-aware of the artificiality of such a classification, and point out repeatedly that the Valdaic and Illmen-Dnepr times are on the extreme Northeastern periphery of the Atlanto-Black Sea anthropological group. It makes more sense to include the Illmen-Dniepr and Vladaic types into the sphere of the Northern Europids, as was done in one of N. N. Cheboksarov’s earlier works (1947). The most typical representative of the Valdai-Upper Dniepr complex are are Lithuanians, Belarussians, and Western Great Russians.

The Central East European complex is prevalent along the banks of the Oka river, the Upper tributaries of the Don, the Klyazma river, the middle and upper banks of the Volga, the Tsna river, the Vorksel’ river, the Khoper river and the Medveditsa river. In its morphology, it is quite similar to the gracile, mesocephalic, variant of the Baltic complex, but is distinguished from it by darker hair and eye coloration. It has long been known in anthropological science under the name “Eastern European type.” Even Deniker identified it as a population element in the east of Europe (Deniker, 1898). M. Hesch identified it as a population element in the population of the Baltic region (Hesch, 1933), N. N. Cheboksarov, M. V. Vitov, (Vitov, Mark, Cheboksarov, 1959), R. J. Denisova (1958) and V. V. Bunak – among Polessje Belorussians, and among Mordva (Bunak, 1956), I – among Russians of the Volga-Oka region (Alekseeva 1956), and P. I. Zienkewicz – among Russians of the Vetluga region, , and to a certain extent, Maris and Udmurts (Zienkewicz, 1934, 1941a, 1941b). Along with the traits we have already described, a certain degree of “Lappinoidity” it often ascribed to this type. Among “Lappinoid” specialties one can count such features as decreased tretiarry hair cover, slight flatness of the face, and limited nasal protrusion. However, it should be noted that “Lappinoid” traits are not found in all groups belonging to this complex. For example, among Russians, who are the most typical representatives of this complex, facial flattening and decreased nasal protrusion are found only in peripheral Northern and Eastern areas. However, one of the traits of the “lappinoid complex”, decreased tretirarry hair cover is typical, almost witout exception, of all Russian groups.

A few words should be said regard the term “Lappinoid’ itself. The majority of researchers studying the anthropological compostion of Finno-Ugric peoples identify two main types among them – Suburalic and Sublappinoid. However, according to the valid conclusion of V. P. Alekseev, there is no need to identify two types, since their distinctions are based solely on differing amounts of Monoloid and Europid components in their ethnogensis, and only one type should be identified – Suburalic, as a variant of the Uralic race in which strong Europid admixture manifests itself clearly.
The Central-East European complex was categorized by N. N. Cheboksarov and M. V. Vitov as part of the Eastern European group of anthropological types. In pigmentation, it takes an intermediate position between members of the Atlanto-Baltic group of anthropological types and the Atlanto-Black Sea group of anthropological types, and in terms of tretiarry hair cover, it is similar to Uralic types.

The Dniepr complex (or “Central Dniepr” complex after V. D. Dyachenko) is prevalent in the middle flows of the Dniepr as well as its tributaries – the Desna, Susla, Psel, Vorksel, Teterev, Ros’ rivers, as well as the Seima river and the upper tributaries of the Northern Donetz River, The most characteristic representatives of this complex are Ukrainians. This complex has such characteristics as high stature, brachycephaly, limited depigmentation, a relatively broad face, a medium tretirarry hair cover, and a predominantly straight nasal form. A similar combination of traits is known by the label “Alpine race” (Deniker, 1898), Beyond the boundaries of Eastern Europe, this race is found in the north of the Balkans, in Hungary, Austria, Switzerland, in the South of Germany, and Northern Italy. (Coon, 1935; Popov, 1939). The so-called ‘Alpine race’ is distinguished by its widespread distribution and high variability. V. V. Bunak (Bunak, 1932a) suggests the creation of a separate “East Alpine” or “Carpathid” taxon to accommodate the relativelt dark brachycephals of Eastern Europe. N. N. Cheboksarov (Vitov, Mark, Cheboksarov, 1959) also suggest a special ‘Alpine-Carpathid’ sub-group within the confines of the Atlanto-Black Sea group of anthropological types. By and large, Ukrainians can be included into this taxon.

Steppe Complex. Unfortunately, the population of the Steppe zone has been rather poorly studied by anthropologists. Therefore, the description of the Steppe complex is based only on scanty data regarding some Russian groups inhabiting the midflows of the Dona and Khoper rivers, and a few Turkic-speaking groups dwelling on the right banks of the Volga, most importantly the Mishars. The populations which form this complex are distinguished by mesocephaly, relatively small absolute dimensions of the head and face, partial depigmentation, intermediate development of tretiarry hair cover, intermediate horizontal facial profile and relatively strong nasal protrusion.
The combination of anthropological cgaracteristics which is typical for the Steppe complex has been described in anthropological literature before under the label of “Pontic” and “Black Sea” types (Bunak, 1932a). N. N. Cheboksarov and M. V.. Vitov suggest including this complex into the Atlanto-Black Sea group of types (Vitov, Mark, Cheboksarov, 1959). We find this suggestion to be reasonable.

Volga-Kama and Uralic complexes. The first of these is localized in the area between the Vetluga and Vyatka rivers, the upper flows of the Kama, on the banks of the Belaya river and in part, along the banks of the Volga; the second complex is found mainly beyond the Ural mountains; in Eastern Europe it is found along the banks of the Tavda and Kondinsk rivers. These complexes are characterized by low sture, weak development of tretiarry hair cover, relatively dark pigmentation, a low, flattish face, and a weakly protruding nose with a concave bridge. The characteristics can be combined with meso- and brachycephaly. In the Uralic complex, all the above-mentioned traits are considerably stronger. In their morphological characteristics, both complexes take an intermediate position between the Europid and Mongoloid greater race. Their intermediate character was noted by Deniker (Deniker, 1898) and S. I. Rudenko (1914). Various forms of this race have been described by V. V> Bunak under such labels as “Ob”, “Middle-Volga”, “West-Arctic”, “Vyatka-Kama” and were classified by him as part of the “greater Northern Paleo-Asiatic race” (Bunak, 1932a). In N. N. Cheboksarov’s and M. V. Vitov’s classification scheme these groups are considered part of the Uralic conglomerate of types (Vitov, Mark, Cheboksarov, 1959). Their traits are widespread among the ethnic groups of the Ural and Volga regions – Chuvashis, Maris, Udmurts, Komi-Permyaks and southern Komy Zyrians, a few groups of Volga Tatars, Khanty and Mansi (Alekseeva 1955; Zienkewicz 1941a, 1941b; Cheboksarov, 1946; Trofimova, 1949; Debetz 1947) as well as Saami of the Kol peninsula (Zolotarev, 1927, 1928), and the Saami of Finland, Sweden and Norway (Kajava, 1925; Schreiner 1939).


Excerpted and translated from Tatiana Ivanovna Alekseeva’s Etnogenez Vostochnykh Slavjan po Dannym Antropologii ( Ethnogenesis of the Eastern Slavs According to Anthropological Data), p. 230 – 232, Moscow 1972

[Petyr Baelish]

I think I need to elucidate precisely what this has to do with the relative weight of the Europoid and Mongoloid components in the ethnic groups of the Russian Federation. Historically, the two most important components of genetic variation in the area that is now Russia have consisted of a Europid trend pushing eastward since the Upper Paleolithic, and a Uralic trend pushing Westward since the late Mesolithic/Early Neolithic. Recall that the Uralic race in it's 'pure' form is a stabilized hybrid of 50/50 Europoid and Mongoloid components. It's connected with Finno-Ugric speaking tribes who brought the Pit-Comb Pottery culture Westward from the Urals into the Volga basin and the Baltic. As we start at the Urals, we find more or less pure representatives of this type in the Nenets and the Voguls. As this race pushed Westward, it mixed with local Europoid forms (mostly robust, mesoprosopic hyperdolicocephals), thus becoming progressively 'Europeanized." The 'sub-Uralic' type found among the Mari, the Chuvash, the Zyrians is predominantly Europid - the ratio of Europid to Mongoloid component is something like 65/35. As this type moved into the Baltic, it mixed with local North Europid forms giving rise to the East Baltic type. If we assume that the east Baltic type is a composite of 50% sub-Uralic with 50% North Europid we get something ~20% as the total Asiatic contribution. This seems unreasonably high given the extremely high levels of blondism and overwhelmingly Europid morphology of this type, so something lower, perhaps on the order of 1/8th-1/6th Asiatic genes in this types is probably closer to the mark. On the other end of the continuum we get the pre-historic Baltic and Slavic tribes that have been massively colonizing the region since the beginning of the Iron Age. As these tribes expanded eastward they usually found very sparsely peopled territories. In most regions these Finnic-speaking aboriginals of East Baltic and sub-Uralic type were not numerically significant enough to alter the original Slavic type in any noticeable way. However, on the eastern and northern peripheries of their territories, the Great Russians did absorb some of this Finno-Ugric substratum. How much? We don't know exactly, but we know that almost everywhere where the population call themselves 'Russians' (as opposed to, say Komi or Vepse) the Central East European type associated with the original Slavic colonists remains the basic type, but is modified by the substrate. So, let's assume that in the north, the Russian colonists ran into some Finnish-speaking tribes belonging to the East Baltic type and absorbed them, to the point where the modern Northern Russian has, 5/8ths Slavic ancestry and 3/8ths Finno-Ugric. Assuming that the original Finno-Ugric substrate population had a 15% Mongoloid contribution to their genepool, the Russian, through his Finno-Ugric ancestors, would come out to be around 6% Asiatic on average. This is, incidentally about the highest figure of Mongoloid ancestry that genetic tests appear to show for such peripheral Northern and Eastern Russian groups, and it decreases as the Finno-Ugric accretion 'thins out' to about 1-2% in the center where most of the Russian population is concentrated and Slavic genes are strongest.



As far as the population of Russia itself is concerned, there is a continuum. On one end are the very distinctly Northern European looking groups - the Erzya, the Karelians, and, to a large extent, the Russians. Some of these North Europids combine extremely high levels of blondism with attenuated Asiatic (Uralic, technically) traits. This combination of extreme blondism and incipient mongoloidity is called 'East Baltic'. The Vepses are the most typical representatives, but some Northern Russian regional groups, some western Komis, Setu Estonians, and some Karelian groups also fall within the 'East Baltic complex.' ... Somewhere in between the North Europids and the Mongoloids stands the Uralic/Lappinoid race which combines features of both large races in almost a 50/50 proportion. The most typical representatives of this race are the Saami, the Nenets, and the Voguls. Most of the Finno-Ugric groups fall somewhere along this continuum, some closer to the Uralic, some almost completely North Europid.

[Vessper]

Ok, thanks Petyr Baelish...
I think that we can thus deduce that Russians are Europid on average...I don't think the 6% of mongoloid blood can stop that.
Just wondering, do you know if is there any trusteable genetic test that proves the racial makeup?.

And thanks again for your posts, they are excellent. Great work.

[VONBLUVENS]

http://i43.tinypic.com/15ysvhy.jpg

...And that means what exactly?

[Gregz]

Ok, thanks Petyr Baelish...
I think that we can thus deduce that Russians are Europid on average...I don't think the 6% of mongoloid blood can stop that.
Just wondering, do you know if is there any trusteable genetic test that proves the racial makeup?.

And thanks again for your posts, they are excellent. Great work.

Even the Finn's have around 5% of mongoloid blood. :chinaman:

[ogenoct]

Even the Finn's have around 5% of mongoloid blood. :chinaman:

The horror! The horror!

[Apocales]

After viewing this thread it appears some Russians do and some don't. Next?

[Empress Cheesatine]

I believe that you mixed more with Blacks than Russians did with Mongols.

I can post thousands of pictures with so-called "mongrels" from the USA.

So better think twice before you point with the finger at others.

Please do. I'd love to know how I'm a "mongrel" considering only 3 of my ancestors were in the US prior to 1830, the rest being either in Europe or new European immigrants to America. The 3 born in the US circa 1830 were listed as "white" in census records, as were their spouses and children. 1 of the 3 married an Englishman so that leaves you a whopping two. Show me what a blue-eyed mongrel I am.

[Empress Cheesatine]

If you read the letters to AncestryByDNA, you'll find loads of confused Finns, Scandinavians and Germans writing in to clarify why their results show unreasonably high levels of East Asian admixture. The fact of the matter is that the test they use is simply not very accurate.

I lost a link about this, actually. One of the DNA tests that's widely used is known for giving false positives for Asian. I forget which one it is. It had Pennsylvania Dutch showing up as 20% Asian.

[Contra Mundum]

Original inhabitants of Scandinavia were Asiatic. Their descendants are the Lapps. Germanic invaders conquered the land from Denmark. Many Europeans have Asiatic blood and many Asians have Caucasian blood.

You can clearly see Asian features in the blonde from ABBA.

http://images.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/20080706/425.Abba.070608.jpg

[Contra Mundum]

There's an old saying. 'Scratch a Russian, find a Tartar'

Many Russians have Asiatic features. It's only logical. It is a cross road between Europe and Asia.

Many Americans have Amerindian blood. You can see it in their faces. Look at pictures of Dolly Parton, Loretta Lynn and Burt Reynolds.

Unlike African mixtures, Asian and Caucasian mix well. One race doesn't dominate the other. I know people who are half Asian or 1/4 and can look all Caucasian while others can look mostly Asian, but most have noticeable features from both, you cannot say the same for those with some African mix. Africans are just too different from other races.

[Gummo]

Please do. I'd love to know how I'm a "mongrel" considering only 3 of my ancestors were in the US prior to 1830, the rest being either in Europe or new European immigrants to America. The 3 born in the US circa 1830 were listed as "white" in census records, as were their spouses and children. 1 of the 3 married an Englishman so that leaves you a whopping two. Show me what a blue-eyed mongrel I am.

Who said that you are a mongrel!?

But you won't tell me that there's just a handful kids from relations between Whites&Blacks and Whites&Chicanos?

And look at the most rappers. Ice T, Ice Cube, Dr. Dre... they all aren't real Blacks but have also some non-Black (White) genes. Typical US Blacks.

[Vessper]

Please do. I'd love to know how I'm a "mongrel" considering only 3 of my ancestors were in the US prior to 1830, the rest being either in Europe or new European immigrants to America. The 3 born in the US circa 1830 were listed as "white" in census records, as were their spouses and children. 1 of the 3 married an Englishman so that leaves you a whopping two. Show me what a blue-eyed mongrel I am.
But why do you supose that the three of them were not White? Whites were in America long before 1830

[redknight]

Miranda Cosgrove, who is part ethnic Russian, is often thought of as looking Mongolian. http://musicremedy.com/webfiles/artists/MirandaCosgrove/MirandaCosgrove-03-big.jpg I also think that this is a reason as to why we National Bolsheviks describe ourselves as being eurasian, rather than aryan/white, in regards to racial makeup, because Russians are a mixture of nordic and asiatic features. White and yellow pride worldwide. :hitler: LOL :geisha:

[Dreadnought]

Who said that you are a mongrel!?

But you won't tell me that there's just a handful kids from relations between Whites&Blacks and Whites&Chicanos?

And look at the most rappers. Ice T, Ice Cube, Dr. Dre... they all aren't real Blacks but have also some non-Black (White) genes. Typical US Blacks. That in itself means that US whites don't have black blood, because a mulatto will get shunted off into the "black" category. So many blacks have white blood but not vice versa.

[Rakhmetov]

The vast majority of Russians have Central European features. Some Russians have Turko-Mongol ancestors.

[Vessper]

I highly recommend reading Petyr Baelish's posts (some pages earlier) about the different Russian ethnicies and racial types. I find it very informative.



That in itself means that US whites don't have black blood, because a mulatto will get shunted off into the "black" category. So many blacks have white blood but not vice versa.
Are you sure? So then we can safely say that US Whites descendants from the first British settlers (that probably can't easily trace their complete ancestry) are 100% White right?

[Gummo]

That in itself means that US whites don't have black blood, because a mulatto will get shunted off into the "black" category. So many blacks have white blood but not vice versa.

What a logic.

I'm impressed.

[Petyr Baelish]

Miranda Cosgrove, who is part ethnic Russian

Brilliant logic there. Might as well use Obama to "prove" Negroid admixture in Anglo-Saxons. By the way, in addition to being part "Russian" (which in the United States almost inevitably means Jewish), she also boasts of Welsh, Armenian, Italian and "Slavic" (whatever that's supposed to mean) ancestry. Anyway, I know that any real debate in this thread is finished when someone pulls out a New World Euro-Mutt of indeterminate - and indeterminable - ethnicity as evidence of race-mixing in a European group. Might as well use Brazilians to "demonstrate" that the Portuguese and Germans are mulattoes. In any case, people who reason on that level obviously are not interested in actual physical anthropology, nor is it likely that they could understand it if it were presented to them. I'll leave what remains of this thread to the self-appointed experts to squabble over.

[redknight]

Brilliant logic there. Might as well use Obama to "prove" Negroid admixture in Anglo-Saxons. By the way, in addition to being part "Russian" (which in the United States almost inevitably means Jewish), she also boasts of Welsh, Armenian, Italian and "Slavic" (whatever that's supposed to mean) ancestry. Anyway, I know that any real debate in this thread is finished when someone pulls out a New World Euro-Mutt of indeterminate - and indeterminable - ethnicity as evidence of race-mixing in a European group. Might as well use Brazilians to "demonstrate" that the Portuguese and Germans are mulattoes. In any case, people who reason on that level obviously are not interested in actual physical anthropology, nor is it likely that they could understand it if it were presented to them. I'll leave what remains of this thread to the self-appointed experts to squabble over.
I was just using her as an example of something with prominant cheek bones who is not a mongolian. Russia is made up of many ethnicities, not all of which are white caucasian.

[<access denied>]

Maxim Kontsevich (http://www.cirs-tm.org/researchers/researchers.php?id=295) (Mathematician, 1998 Fields Medal):

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/6922/45495721.gif http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/548/43608692.jpg http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/5841/63831980.jpg http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/5763/39573984.jpg


Igor Shafarevich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Shafarevich) (Algebraic Geometer):

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/8849/85588785.jpg http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/3623/13447052.jpg http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/5371/70588789.jpg http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/7683/60962343.jpg http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/4017/34278015.jpg http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/9605/86324996.jpg


Ivan Vinogradov (http://www.gap-system.org/~history/Biographies/Vinogradov.html) (Analytic Number Theorist):

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/7467/61005043.jpg http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/576/55039089.jpg


Anatoly Mal'cev (http://www.gap-system.org/~history/Biographies/Malcev.html) (Algebraist):

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/7241/45671679.jpg http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/4599/33980597.jpg


Nikolai Bogolyubov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolay_Bogolyubov) (Mathematician, Physicist):

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/5663/82228358.jpg http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/4532/72132764.jpg


Vladimir Fock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Fock) (Physicist):

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/6567/23180573.jpg http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/738/23026293.jpg


Mstislav Keldysh (http://www.keldysh.ru/MVKeldysh/en/keldysh_biogr.en.shtml) (Mathematician, Space Program):

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/6485/83284845.jpg http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5994/19079027.jpg


Vladimir Vernadsky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Vernadsky) (The Biosphere):

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/2962/46908254.jpg http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/1879/24097418.jpg

[Petyr Baelish]

LOL, notice how the Ukrainian editors of of wikipedia, for lack of any significant writers or scientists of Ukrainian ethnicity, claim every ethnic Russian who had the misortune to be born on Ukrainian soil as one of their own.

[Rakhmetov]

http://www.russiatoday.com/s/obj/gallery/kosharnitskaya-big.jpg

http://www.russiatoday.com/s/obj/gallery/rt-gir-big.jpg

http://www.russiatoday.com/s/obj/gallery/fedorova-big.jpg

[Vessper]

I visited the Russian-Argentine ambassador today. He was tall, blonde haired, blue eyed, pale skinned. He looked very Russian. I think that is the actual typical Russian. With the time I like Russia more, and more. I don't really know why though.

[Petyr Baelish]

I visited the Russian-Argentine ambassador today. He was tall, blonde haired, blue eyed, pale skinned. He looked very Russian. I think that is the actual typical Russian. With the time I like Russia more, and more. I don't really know why though.

Ethnic Russians are as blond as Swedes, but considerably darker-eyed - the percentage of dark eyes is the same in both groups, but mixed shades are much more common among Russians.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/Nicola_Canadian/KubanCossacks1945.jpg
http://i005.radikal.ru/0712/5b/77611e65641c.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/Nicola_Canadian/russold10.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/Nicola_Canadian/SUVOR2.jpg
http://r.foto.radikal.ru/0703/07/0be818a07f04.jpg
http://r.foto.radikal.ru/0703/b6/a47e914db744.jpg
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f161/11aaabbb11/avia3.jpg
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f161/11aaabbb11/avia7.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/aiwn07/gallipoli08.jpg
http://i020.radikal.ru/0804/f6/ba5ae07a9806.jpg
http://i001.radikal.ru/0804/d3/18f3d1451471.jpg
http://i037.radikal.ru/0804/d3/fa89a68bdd42.jpg
http://i019.radikal.ru/0804/53/ffbcb92514b0.jpg
http://i025.radikal.ru/0804/81/41be3e6b4994.jpg
http://i034.radikal.ru/0804/17/ae3d641448fe.jpg
http://i022.radikal.ru/0804/d5/1ae449693255.jpg
http://i002.radikal.ru/0805/ce/e739dddc288b.jpg[img]
[img]http://i021.radikal.ru/0805/0b/76e13ecf1d97.jpg
http://i024.radikal.ru/0805/dd/9ceb4a69f72b.jpg

[Petyr Baelish]

Nothing but gooks, obviously.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/Nicola_Canadian/RUSOLD/vdv2.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/Nicola_Canadian/RUSOLD/vdv8.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/Nicola_Canadian/RUSOLD/vdv9.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/Nicola_Canadian/RUSOLD/vdv6.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/Nicola_Canadian/RUSOLD/kids1.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/Nicola_Canadian/RUSOLD/russian_men_parade3.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/Nicola_Canadian/RUSOLD/vdv11.jpg
http://i007.radikal.ru/0804/55/548dc82c8b87.jpg
http://www.ljplus.ru/img/l/e/lesnoy/1914-god.jpg
http://i002.radikal.ru/0804/c9/45a6c49a870b.jpg
http://i026.radikal.ru/0801/f0/596cb480f1ec.jpg
http://i030.radikal.ru/0804/ef/f0ab2dc83a9d.jpg
http://i022.radikal.ru/0804/6e/afcbb878db74.jpg
http://i036.radikal.ru/0801/3c/0cfc99320f67.jpg
http://i005.radikal.ru/0801/da/c4ef0563c140.jpg
http://i049.radikal.ru/0802/41/5a7635f26f6c.jpg
http://i011.radikal.ru/0802/10/74559c86a3d2.jpg
http://i006.radikal.ru/0805/03/683047eec48e.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/aiwn07/gallipoli14.jpg

[Vessper]

Ethnic Russians are as blond as Swedes, but considerably darker-eyed - the percentage of dark eyes is as low among them as it is among Swedes, but mixed shades are much more common among Russians.

I inherited hazel eyes for my Russian side, is that common then? That's what you mean with mixed shades?. I think that it's a "mixture" of brown and green. Seems to be dominant, my mom is blue eyed and I'm hazel eyed for my dad, though my sis is blue eyed too, so I don't know.

[Petyr Baelish]

I inherited hazel eyes for my Russian side, is that common then? That's what you mean with mixed shades?. I think that it's a "mixture" of brown and green. Seems to be dominant, my mom is blue eyed and I'm hazel eyed for my dad, though my sis is blue eyed too, so I don't know.

In V. V. Bunak's scheme, blue, blue-gray, and gray eyes are considered "light", mixtures of blue, gray and green, green, and mixed green-brown ('hazel', if you will) eyes are considered "mixed", and brown, dark brown, yellow, and black are considered dark. The frequencies are - 45% light, 51% mixed, and 4% dark. I don't know what the frequency of individual colors is, but the most common mixed shades are green and green-gray. Where are your Russian ancestors from, and do you have any Ukrainian ancestry? In some areas of Southern Russia the population is somewhat darker-eyed than the average. Ukrainians are darker still.

[Vessper]

In V. V. Bunak's scheme, blue, blue-gray, and gray eyes are considered "light", mixtures of blue, gray and green, green, and mixed green-brown ('hazel', if you will) eyes are considered "mixed", and brown, dark brown, yellow, and black are considered dark. The frequencies are - 45% light, 51% mixed, and 4% dark. I don't know what the frequency of individual colors is, but the most common mixed shades are green and green-gray. Where are your Russian ancestors from, and do you have any Ukrainian ancestry? In some areas of Southern Russia the population is somewhat darker-eyed than the average. Ukrainians are darker still.
Well, that's why, is argueable. My Russian ancestry is from the Volga, from Odessa, which is now Ukraine. Thing is, that was Russia before. I had 2 Russian great grandparents, one was red haired, hazel eyed, and the other was light brown/blonde haired, blue eyed. I'm red haired, hazel eyed, though red hair may be from my mum (she was red haired when she was really, really little, and then she became completly blonde).