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Petr
08-19-2009, 06:11 AM
http://creation.com/notable-evolutionists-retreating-from-empiricism-to-arguments-from-analogy


A change in tactics

As empiricism fails them, notable evolutionists are retreating into arguments from analogy

by Calvin Smith

Published: 18 August 2009(GMT+10)


For years, many evolutionists have been making statements similar to this:

Actually, there is superabundant evidence for animals evolving under our eyes: British moths becoming darker since the Industrial Revolution (industrial melanization), insects evolving DDT resistance since World War II, malaria parasites evolving chloroquine resistance in the last two decades, and new strains of flu virus evolving every few years to infect us.1
However, after years of withering fire being directed at the foundational structure of their evolutionary castle, it appears that Creationists and Intelligent Design proponents have finally caused enough damage to force some of evolution’s foremost promoters to change tactics. The outer wall reinforcing the “mound of empirical evidence supporting evolution” has collapsed, causing honest evolutionists to fall back behind “arguments from analogy”, or “inference”.


Is evolution “obvious”?

Fanatical atheist Richard Dawkins stated:

“Nobody has actually seen evolution take place over a long period but they have seen the after effects, and the after effects are massively supported. It is like a case in a court of law where nobody can actually stand up and say I saw the murder happen and yet you have got millions and millions of pieces of evidence which no reasonable person can possibly dispute.”2 (Emphasis mine)
For the world’s leading “evolutionary evangelist”, this is actually a stunning statement! What is Dawkins saying? Well, there’s no observable evidence for evolution (which means it’s not empirical science, which means evolution is a hypothesis at best)! This is pretty earth shaking stuff for the average evolutionist that thinks they are standing on solid intellectual ground.

It’s interesting to note a comment from a Dawkins supporter from RichardDawkins.net commenting on the above quote on the thread discussing the TV show it was taken from.

The statement that "Nobody’s actually seen evolution take place over a long period, but they’ve seen the after-effects, and the after-effects are massively supported" is fine as far as it goes, but it would be educational to note there that many people have seen evolution over a short period, resulting in varieties or similar species, and no-one has found any barrier preventing such changes from accumulating to form greater differences.3

See how the “student” still believes “evolution has been observed” while the “expert” admits it hasn’t? But the commonly cited proofs of observed evolution such as the peppered moth, insects evolving DDT resistance, bacteria evolving etc have nothing to do with goo to you evolution, as Dawkins admits. After all, despite a rash of books raving about Darwinism, he has admitted before that: “Evolution has been observed. It’s just that it hasn’t been observed while it’s happening.”4

We need to realize that with a little knowledge we can defend ourselves against the average evolutionist’s arguments quite easily!


Above the law?

However, let’s be fair. Creationists have been arguing from analogy for years, so let’s give Dawkins the benefit of the doubt and go through his analogy of a court case to see if it holds up.

In a court of law there is usually a judge (to keep things fair), an unbiased jury (to weigh the evidence) and two sides (the prosecution and the defence) arguing from the same body of evidence, trying to prove their case.

But what kind of court system would you call it if only one side got to present their case? It would be a farce, of course, a travesty of justice. Now ask; “How many ways is the topic of origins explained in most public schools in the western world?” One way! Dawkins claims that when the evidence is analyzed, the case for evolution is so strong that no reasonable person could dispute it. However, is it any wonder that many people believe in evolution when they have only ever been indoctrinated from a materialistic viewpoint?

Far from the evidence speaking for itself, evolution must be forced upon people for it to be so “obvious”. Evolutionists understand that if a two model approach was used in our education systems evolution would be crushed relatively quickly by the overwhelming evidence of design in the universe. Even many staunch atheists have abandoned the materialistic worldview when exposed to alternative interpretations of the evidence.


From empiricism to analogy

Another example of empirical back-pedalling was Eugenie Scott’s (director of the evolution-promoting National Center for Science Education) talk “Science and Religion as Ways of Knowing” at Miami University (September 10, 2008). In it she chided creationists for 1) preferring direct observation to inferential explanation and 2) insisting evolutionists should provide observable evidence for their belief.

So instead of providing observable evidence for evolution (there is none) she attempted to make the point that scientists can figure out what happened in the past based on observations in the present.

She used the laughable example of cow dung on a road painted over with a highway stripe as an Illustration of how we can logically infer from the evidence conclusions about events never seen. The logical sequence, she explained was that a cow had defecated on a road and the highway crew came along and painted the stripe over top of it.

Well, this conclusion is quite obvious as it is based on what we do know, not what we don’t. Many people have 1) Seen cows “doing their thing”, 2) Seen painted highway stripes, 3) Seen what happens when paint is applied over a piece of tape left on their wall for example.

Creationists have been citing this type of inference/analogy for years. For example, when you see something that has design features (a motor, a robot etc) you can assume there was a designer. And our universal experience has been that whenever we see information in the form of a code or language it originated in an intelligent mind. So when we see the same types of things in nature (like the ATP Synthase motor, Kinesin and DNA) it is scientifically valid to come to the same conclusions.

When we see originally organic material like fossilized trees standing upright through several meters of sedimentary rock layers we can assume the layers were laid down fairly quickly (before the tree rotted away). When we see unfossilized animal tissue (containing amino acid sequences)5 within fossils of dinosaur bones, we can assume those fossils to have been formed fairly recently (thousands of years ago, not millions) because of the chemical decomposition rates involved.

All of the logical conclusions based on the above analogies and inferences prove devastating to evolutionary presuppositions. They are direct evidence of an intelligent designer behind the design we see, and against the idea of “millions of years” required for evolution to work. So, for evolutionists to seek cover by retreating into arguments from analogy will prove suicidal for them eventually, as only the most diehard materialists will be willing to abandon their brains and deny such arguments.

The evolutionary strongholds are buckling! Now is the time to press the attack on the evolutionary stronghold and put the materialists on the defensive for a change. Get the information available from ministries like CMI and distribute it to the people in your community. Let’s turn the tide against atheism and point people to Christ!


References

1. Jared Diamond, Who Are the Jews, Natural History 102:11, November 1993. p. 19.

2. The Genius of Charles Darwin, Series 1, (UK) Channel 4 TV: Sat 11 Oct 2008

3. <richarddawkins.net/articleComments,2925,On-TV-The-Genius-of-Charles-Darwin-Presented-by-Richard-Dawkins,Richard-Dawkins-Channel-4,page3>, 147. Comment #224685 by dave’s on August 5, 2008 at 11:30 am.

4. December 2004 Interview Bill Moyers “Now” Transcript at: <http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript349_full.html#dawkins>

5. “From a paleo standpoint, sequence data really is the nail in the coffin that confirms the preservation of these tissues” Dr. Mary Schweitzer: Peake, T. Small, big Impression. North Carolina State University online feature, July 24, 2007.

Ahknaton
08-19-2009, 06:24 AM
Can we see God creating life happening in the present?

New Dawner
08-19-2009, 06:44 AM
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elbwgreez
08-19-2009, 07:14 AM
The changing ratio of world races (and other living creatures) surely is an example of natural selection. Perhaps frogs will go extinct. Maybe Whites. Maybe jews. The fact we can witness such dramatic changes in genetics in a century tells us evolution can happen quite fast.

Donkeys can reproduce with horses and produce a non-fertile offspring. In a hundred years maybe they won't be able to reproduce together at all. Or maybe a million years.

New Dawner
08-19-2009, 07:26 AM
Michael Cremo proposes that it is infact Devolution, not Evolution.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FS0RTB6AL._SS500_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/Human-Devolution-alternative-Darwins-theory/dp/0892133341


Below is an interview Cremo had on Coast to Coast AM

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Author and researcher Michael Cremo returned to discuss 'forbidden archeology,' ancient Sanskrit knowledge, and cosmic hierarchy. He shared evidence that humans existed on this planet millions of years ago. Examples included, a human skeleton found in Illinois under a thick layer of unbroken slate rock-- which was estimated to be around 300 million years old. And a probable shoe print (the 'Meister print') discovered in Antelope Spring, Utah in slate rock that also contained a trilobite fossil, dated back to 500 million years ago.

It's written in the ancient Sanskrit texts known as the Vedas, that human civilizations have come and gone many times in the history of the Earth. After each time, the planet had to be repopulated and Cremo speculated that higher beings might have reseeded the planet with life forms. The Vedas also described 'vimanas'-- different types of spacecraft that could travel between planets, subtle dimensions, and into pure consciousness.

Cremo believes we are part of a multidimensional cosmos in which ordinary matter, subtle planes, and pure consciousness co-exist and are inhabited by beings in each of the different realms. Spirit communications, apparitions, UFOs, and possession are evidence of this, he said. He also posited that humankind has devolved from the realm of pure consciousness and "become covered with the lower energies of mind and matter."

March 19th, 2008

http://www.mcremo.com/
http://www.forbiddenarcheology.com/
http://www.humandevolution.com/
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2008/03/19

two other interviews with Cremo on Coast to Coast AM

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New Dawner
08-19-2009, 08:26 AM
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Coast to Coast AM July 28 2009

A former geophysicist and college professor, Stephen C. Meyer argued for the existence of intelligent design (ID) based upon DNA, and scientific evidence from such fields as biology, physics, chemistry, and cosmology. These new discoveries have outstripped the Darwinian approach, which never addressed where first life came from, he said. The earliest cellular life that emerged 3.8 billion years ago, such as blue-green algae, wasn't simple at all according to molecular biology research. Rather, such cell life was a highly complex "factory" run on a DNA code that was akin to advanced technology, he detailed, and this DNA reflects the purposeful design of an intelligent force.

We don't necessarily need religion in the picture to conclude that ID is in effect, he said, but of the two theories of who the designer is-- extraterrestrials or a God being, Meyer favors the latter explanation. Evidence of design is in the very fabric of the universe itself, he commented.

Materialism is the view that everything in the universe can ultimately be explained in physical terms, yet matter is a bad candidate to be primordial reality, Meyer stated. Biological systems contain intricate informational structures and their origin cannot be explained by just physical forces, he said.

Petr
08-19-2009, 08:43 AM
Can we see God creating life happening in the present?
Not necessarily. So you would admit that Creationism and Darwinism are on the same level, equally unverifiable? :)


Petr

KevinDeBurgh
09-07-2009, 04:37 PM
http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Relig/Relig-Evolution.html

Some quotes since the whole thing cannot be posted here in a single post :

Some people, including most scientists, believe that evolution is a biological theory which describes factual truths about our world. Others - - mostly religious fundamentalists -- believe that evolution is a false theory, usually because they believe that life forms were created by a Deity and are immutable. And yet others -- mostly philosophers -- believe that evolution is a tautology which maintains the truth of the doctrine of "survival of the fittest" only because, in the final analysis, the term fit is defined as that which survives. In reality, however, all three of these positions are wrong: The fact is that evolution is an organizing principle which cannot be dispensed with because events cannot be sensibly interpreted without it. To explain, it is first useful to note that evolution is much like the Continuity Principle, ie, the belief that the future will be like the past: While all natural law is justified on the basis of the Continuity Principle, it is obvious that the Continuity Principle itself cannot be justified on the basis of the Continuity Principle. Furthermore, if we were to cease to assume the truth of the Continuity Principle, then we would immediately lose the basis of our belief in natural law, and thus the basis of our belief in the regularities of everyday life. In fact, one could say that the belief in the Continuity Principle has been determined by evolution: Those who did not believe in it were eliminated in the struggle for survival, even if there is no "justification" for believing in it.

Now in light of the above discussion, it is not difficult to show that evolution constitutes a principle similar to that of the Continuity Principle. To explain, let us conceptualize evolution in terms of systems theory as follows: Consider an object x which has some finite number of states n which it has a non-zero probability of entering for any time t (Note: This is a general description of every object of the world). If there is some state or set of states S (a subset of n) which is such that, if x enters S, then x will remain in S, then S constitutes an equilibrium (or, more properly, a partial equilibrium) for the "system" of x's behavior, since x may now move among the states in S, but not to states outside S. We then say that the movement of x to S represents the process of evolution, and that the states of S "survive" and hence are "fit" while the states of the set n-S do not survive and are thus not "fit".

When evolution is understood in the above manner, we immediately see that it is not a dispensable concept, but rather is imbedded in our thought processes in such a way that thinking would be impossible without it, and thus that denial of evolution would be not merely futile, but absurd. But if evolution is not merely true, but also necessary, it is equally true that many of the notions advanced by evolutionists are as full of holes as a Swiss cheese, and in dire need of revision...


In conclusion, it should be noted that science does not require its theories to be perfect -- only useful; and thus the theory which makes the best predictions and/or most conveniently organizes the data in question is the preferred one. Clearly, the theory of evolution has a ways to evolve, but its imperfections are certainly no reason for abandoning it, not only because -- as explained earlier -- it is a necessary principle of thought, but also because there is no theory of the data of living entities which makes better predictions or affords better organization of data than evolution. Thus if we do not yet know all the answers which explain how evolution can occur, at least we know that there are answers.

http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Relig/Relig-Evolution.html

Petr
09-07-2009, 04:47 PM
Why do you keep citing that pretentious village-idiot Birdman?


Petr

Angler
09-07-2009, 05:11 PM
But the commonly cited proofs of observed evolution such as the peppered moth, insects evolving DDT resistance, bacteria evolving etc have nothing to do with goo to you evolution, as Dawkins admits. After all, despite a rash of books raving about Darwinism, he has admitted before that: “Evolution has been observed. It’s just that it hasn’t been observed while it’s happening.”Those readily-observable examples of small-scale evolution have everything to do with "goo to you" evolution. The only difference is that the latter took place over a an astronomical time scale, with far more mutations involved. "Goo to you" is in fact an accurate description of what happened; it merely leaves out millions upon millions of steps in between. Science has been filling in those gaps quite successfully, though there is of course more to be learned.

The idea that evolution doesn't happen is moronic. If human beings can selectively breed animals -- and even cause artificial speciation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciation#Artificial_speciation) simply by selective breeding -- then so can environmental pressures that tend to select for particular mutations. It's just that simple. Anyone who can't see this is either naturally stupid or has a mind rotted by fundamentalist dogma.

If you start out with a population of an organism X, and that population gets divided due to the geographical migration of some members X, then the migratory group Y can end up in a different environment. This causes Y to be subjected to different selective pressures than the original members of X, leading to an accumulation of different mutations in Y than were present in X. Over time, this can result in entirely new species if X and Y become genetically different enough. It makes perfect sense.

As for Dawkins' quote, they're probably taking him out of context and deliberately misinterpreting his remarks.

Soulless Doubter
09-07-2009, 06:43 PM
As for Dawkins' quote, they're probably taking him out of context and deliberately misinterpreting his remarks.
The quote, “Evolution has been observed. It’s just that it hasn’t been observed while it’s happening,” comes from an interview with Bill Moyers:

MOYERS: Is evolution a theory, not a fact?

DAWKINS: Evolution has been observed. It's just that it hasn't been observed while it's happening.

MOYERS: What do you mean it's been observed.

DAWKINS: The consequences of. It is rather like a detective coming on a murder after the scene. And youÖ the detective hasn't actually seen the murder take place, of course. But what you do see is a massive clue. Now, any detectiveÖ

MOYERS: Circumstantial evidence.

DAWKINS: Circumstantial evidence, but masses of circumstantial evidence. Huge quantities of circumstantial evidence. It might as well be spelled out in words of English. Evolution is true. I mean it's as circumstantial as that, but it's as true as that.

What gets me, in light of the above quote, taken within context and which the author of the piece must have read, is this:

"What is Dawkins saying? Well, there’s no observable evidence for evolution (which means it’s not empirical science, which means evolution is a hypothesis at best)!"

That's as disingenuous as it gets! Sure, you can't observe one animal evolve into another, but the evidence that this has taken place over long expanses of time (ie, the evidence of the circumstance) is observable.

KevinDeBurgh
09-07-2009, 07:50 PM
Why do you keep citing that pretentious village-idiot Birdman?


Petr

Why do you keep insulting when I already elucidated for you and everyone on this forum that insult is the last refuge of the out-argued (see the works of of Doc Johnson and Arthur Schopenhauer on this issue) ? Are you really that stupid. Your motive seems to be to deny evolution is true and to show that it is false. That is transparent. You are religiously motivated to do so. Failing that in the very least you might want Intelligent design to take the place of the current scientific idea of evolution (i.e a guided evolution by a higher power) or something. You lost the argument. You lack the self-respect not to advance absurdities so I will no longer communicate with you on this forum. You are nothing but a waste of time. Someone who had (John Bryant is deceased) a Mensa level IQ is an idiot ? Absurd to the max. I think you need at least 132 IQ to get into Mensa or some figure real close to that.

Vindex
09-07-2009, 08:19 PM
All I have to do is look at the typical negro, chimp hopping down the street and at Dawkin's to see evolution in the present.

Petr
09-07-2009, 08:37 PM
Someone who had (John Bryant is deceased) a Mensa level IQ is an idiot ? Absurd to the max. I think you need at least 132 IQ to get into Mensa or some figure real close to that.
Being a Mensa member, that's the only "positive" thing I have ever heard about Birdman. His fans keep repeating it like mantra. "Mensa member, Mensa member." It actually only shows that being a Mensa doesn't necessarily make one wise.

But apparently it does make an impression to an insecure materialist like you.


Petr

Petr
09-07-2009, 11:34 PM
You should be sterilized and not allowed to breed. We don't want you breeding more morons.
Apostate Presbyterians like you tend to make the most repulsive infidels of them all.


Petr

KevinDeBurgh
09-07-2009, 11:37 PM
Being a Mensa member, that's the only "positive" thing I have ever heard about Birdman. His fans keep repeating it like mantra. "Mensa member, Mensa member." It actually only shows that being a Mensa doesn't necessarily make one wise.

But apparently it does make an impression to an insecure materialist like you.


Petr

Your statement is idiotic. I am not repeating it like a mantra. I am only mentioning it because you called him a village idiot but having an IQ high enough to be in Mensa makes it impossible for one to be an idiot. (mentioning it in that context makes it completely germane) You didn't merely call him unwise at first but you called him an idiot. It has nothing to do with making an impression on me (impressing me) and has everything to do with refuting your illogical idiocy. You attacked a dead man personally (which is cowardly in my opinion) and you didn't even bother to refute the substance of his article. You lost the argument but you are too stupid and/or bullheaded to realize it.

Ahknaton
09-08-2009, 12:36 AM
Every time you see a bird eat a worm, a possum die crossing the road or a spider kill a fly, you just witnessed an act of natural selection.

Wodan
09-08-2009, 12:44 AM
Every time you see a bird eat a worm, a possum die crossing the road or a spider kill a fly, you just witnessed an act of natural selection.
That's one way of looking at things.

But there are other ways.

KevinDeBurgh
09-08-2009, 01:30 AM
Apostate Presbyterians like you tend to make the most repulsive infidels of them all.


Petr

Declare death sentence via a fatwa on the infidels ! </sarcasm>

I have perfectly valid reasons for being ostensibly Presbyterian culturally but literally atheist in belief. However, that is not relevant to the topic at hand. Do you know how many Jews are literally atheist but still considers themselves Jews ? A significant amount. It's about ethnocentrism( I became ethnically aware/conscious after learning about the Jewish question just like professor Kevin MacDonald predicted) and not being able to avoid the propensities and biases of of the neolithic humans the elite type of humans usually live amongst. illogical personal attacks (propositions) work to change the subject and thanks to your original illogical proposition(s) we are now talking about something that is extraneous to the original post of this thread.