Recent polls show Catholic Church is strong in France and Germany

[Boleslaw]

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=6353

Recent polls show Catholic Church is strong in France and Germany

Paris, Mar. 29, 2006 (CNA) -

Recent polls in two European countries now show that the Church is growing as a powerful social institution. In France, numbers of practicing Catholics remain strong while the German Church is benefiting from the election of Joseph Ratzinger as Pope last year.


In France the poll showed that the Catholic Church remains by far the most important institution. Figures coming from the French Bishops Conference, a recent poll from the CSA institute and the daily LeMonde newspaper, show that 62 % of the population considers itself Catholic, 12 % say they are somewhat practicing and 35% are non-practicing.

Half of French children are currently baptized, and about 18,826 adults and
children over 7 years old were baptized in 2001.

France has just over 100 bishops and 24 000 priests currently exercise their pastoral activity there.

In 2002, there were 132 newly ordained priests, while about 9,542 men and 46,007 women belong to religious congregations. More than 6,000 French are in mission out of France (Africa, Latin America, Asia) and about 1000 of them are priests.

The strength of the Catholic Church largely lies in the 8,719 schools belonging to the organizations of catholic education in the country. More than 35,000 students are currently enrolled in the system. There are also many important catholic associations, such as Catholic Charities which are linked with the Church.

Likewise, the Catholic Church in Germany is benefiting from a “Benedict XVI effect.” Indeed many Germans are witnessing a mix of sympathy and curiosity for this theologian-Pope.

Experts say that the election of the Bavarian Pope, the shy and discret Joseph Ratzinger came at the perfect time for the German Church.

Accordingto a recent poll from the Forsa Institute for the Neue Bild Post newspaper, 59% of Catholics and 54% of people with no religious confessions say the election of Joseph Ratzinger benefited the German Church.

37% view him as a prudent moderated reformer while the fact that he is a theologian, mastering the subtleties of modern German thought is certainly thought to be an advantage in a country very suspicious of Popes in general. It is often known as the land of Luther and the reformation.

Pope Benedict has shown his ability for dialogue and openness by receiving the contested theologian Hans Kung as well as the representatives of the most traditional movements of the Church.

[Lenny]

Likewise, the Catholic Church in Germany is benefiting from a “Benedict XVI effect.” Indeed many Germans are witnessing a mix of sympathy and curiosity for this theologian-Pope.

Experts say that the election of the Bavarian Pope, the shy and discret Joseph Ratzinger came at the perfect time for the German Church.The real thing that has boosted Catholicism in Germany in the past decades has been immigration. It hasn't just been Muslims, huge numbers of Catholics have also immigranted in the past 50 years, artificially boosting the number of "German" Catholics. This is how Germany has maintained the same exact percentage of Catholics through the past five decades as it had pre-WWII (it has always been one-third Catholic) even while all of Europe was secularizing and most every country was seeing the number of religiously affiliated people going down, including the German-Protestants, who declined from 65% to 40% of the German population 1945-present

It is often known as the land of Luther and the reformation.And that it is. Germany was always two-thirds Protestant. That is, until Stalin stole alot of the German-Protestant heartland (eastern territories now occupied by Poland and Russia) and imposed Communistic atheism on another large section of the German-Protestant heartland. What became the DDR had been 90% Protestant pre-war, now after so many decades of enforced atheism the majority do not identify with any religion.

[Boleslaw]

Lenny, you do realize that numerous studies show that "Catholic" immigrants eventually give up their religious affilation once they become more settled in their new homeland?

This is especially true for Hispanic immigrants, who often become Evangelicals and such.

And this data Ive collected from numerous sources, even sources that advocate immigration as a way to improve the Church!

[Lenny]

Lenny, you do realize that numerous studies show that "Catholic" immigrants eventually give up their religious affilation once they become more settled in their new homeland?

This is especially true for Hispanic immigrants, who often become Evangelicals and such.

And this data Ive collected from numerous sources, even sources that advocate immigration as a way to improve the Church!This may be true in the US to some extent, but that's only because as foreign immigrants intergate into a host country's society they tend to assimiliate towards the norm, which in most parts of the US is Protestantism. In West Germany (where all the immigrants went) the society's norm is both Catholic and Protestant (Historically West Germany was 55% Protestant/45% Catholic), so immigrants are liable to assimilate into either religion. If they are already Catholic, as so many of them were (note that basically 0 immigrants were Protestant), then they will obviously join up with the Catholics. Also keep in mind that there is less pressure to assimilate towards the society's norm in Europe than there is here anyway.

[Count Eustace II]

Recent polls in two European countries now show that the Church is growing as a powerful social institution. In France, numbers of practicing Catholics remain strong while the German Church is benefiting from the election of Joseph Ratzinger as Pope last year.

This news will certainly infuriate the Neocon/Rapture Bunny contigent who claim that God only blesses and lives in Amerikwa while the rest of the peoples of the world are godless heathens...especially those secular Europeans.

Amen to France and Germany.

[Boleslaw]

This may be true in the US to some extent, but that's only because as foreign immigrants intergate into a host country's society they tend to assimiliate towards the norm, which in most parts of the US is Protestantism.

Thank you Lenny for shooting yourself in the foot! :D

That's been the basic problem with Catholicism in America, in order to combat the charge of being anti-American, they've had to make themselves seem more American than the Americans. And when you really look at it, American Catholics have largely been taking the common and basic moral values of American society to their logical conclusion.

[Lenny]

Thank you Lenny for shooting yourself in the foot!Relatively small numbers of hispanic immigrants in the US convert to Protestantism, yes, but it's not like a majority or even a large minority do. The large majority remian Catholic. Anyway the point is that you cannot apply this US phenomenon of some immigrants into the US giving up Catholicism, to Germany.

This news will certainly infuriate the Neocon/Rapture Bunny contigent who claim that God only blesses and lives in Amerikwa while the rest of the peoples of the world are godless heathens...especially those secular Europeans.

Amen to France and Germany.Remeber that this is "strong" and "growing" by European standards. It said in the article that 62% of French identify as Catholic, with less than half that as practicing. If France were a US state, that 62% would make it the bottom state with regard to Christian affiliation.

[Boleslaw]

Lenny you didnt address my argument.

[Lenny]

Lenny you didnt address my argument.That "Catholics immigrants convert to Protestantism" argument you had only applies to the US, not Germany and certainly not France

85% of religiously affiliated hispanics in the US are still Catholic, by the way. And many of the remainder are not Protestant but something else (e.g. crazy Jehiovah's Witnesses)

[Dienekes]

The real thing that has boosted Catholicism in Germany in the past decades has been immigration.

Of course it is. The only things that boost Catholicism anywhere are immigration and reproduction. Why do you think they are so adamant about their stance on birth control? Because they need lots of babies to keep up their numbers.:D

[Boleslaw]

That "Catholics immigrants convert to Protestantism" argument you had only applies to the US, not Germany and certainly not France

85% of religiously affiliated hispanics in the US are still Catholic, by the way. And many of the remainder are not Protestant but something else (e.g. crazy Jehiovah's Witnesses)

Again that doesnt address my argument about why the Catholic church supports these immigrants, especially in the US.

There's nothing distinctly Catholic about supporting immigration. In Europe, many devout Catholic politicans have staunchly criticised immigration. De Villers in France even ran on a platform against mass East European immigration(many of whom are Catholic btw).

[Boleslaw]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c1/Philippe_de_Villiers_2212.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_de_Villiers

Philippe de Villiers (born March 25, 1949 as Viscount Philippe le Jolis de Villiers de Saintignon) is a French conservative politician.

Born in Boulogne in the département of Vendée, he is, as of 2004, deputy to the French National Assembly for the département of Vendée.

A sub-prefect, he resigned in 1981 because he did not want to serve the government of left-wing president François Mitterrand.

He was a member of the Union for French Democracy political party. He now leads the Mouvement pour la France, which has achieved some success in elections for the European Parliament but fell back in 2004, with Villiers being elected to the Parliament along with two colleagues.

He is known for his conservative, traditionalist and eurosceptic positions. He was a leader of the "non" to the European Constitution in the conservative side, and was the first to use the phrase "Polish Plumber" in a speech, about a perceived threat of cheap East European labor.

[Boleslaw]

Then who can forget the incident involving Rocco Buttiglione?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3718210.stm

Mr Buttiglione is a philosopher-politician, a man equally at home giving an ethics seminar as discussing practical solutions to Europe's immigration issues.
//
A father of four, he is a devoted, God-fearing Roman Catholic and a professor of political sciences in Rome.

His ties with the Vatican are so close he is considered to be one of the closest friends and counsellors of Pope John Paul II.

He has even written a book delving into the mind of the man who became the head of the Catholic Church.

But Mr Buttiglione's views on some of the topics in his new portfolio - including immigration and security - have raised uneasy murmurings at the Commission.
////
But it is on the subject of immigration that Mr Buttiglione really has the capacity to get people hot under the collar.

Calling the situation a "humanitarian crisis" he defended his country's much-criticised decision to deport many of the thousands of would-be immigrants who arrive on its shores each year.

"This is not an expulsion. It is a refusal for entry at the border, which is in accordance with international law," he told his audience.

He has been a vocal supporter of Germany's and Italy's plans to set up processing centres in North Africa for people seeking asylum in the EU, although he stressed that the centres would provide humanitarian relief.

[Boleslaw]

So why is it that many Catholic politicans in Europe are criticising immigration, but in America they basically are not? What does that say more about, Catholicism in general or America?

[Lenny]

Again that doesnt address my argument about why the Catholic church supports these immigrants, especially in the US.Surely you see that immigration is very good for the Catholic Church in the US? As it has been for the past 150+ years. That's why they support it, it benefits them and their Church tremendously, to the detriment of the US. A double whammy for the Catholics (helps them and weakens Protestants in the US/Protestantism in the US)

There's nothing distinctly Catholic about supporting immigration.There absolutely is in the US

So why is it that many Catholic politicans in Europe are criticising immigration, but in America they basically are not?Look at the religious affiliations of the immigrants who are entering Europe, then compare it to the religious affiliations of immigrants coming into the US. There's your answer. ;)

Of course it is. The only things that boost Catholicism anywhere are immigration and reproduction. Why do you think they are so adamant about their stance on birth control? Because they need lots of babies to keep up their numbers.True :cool:

[Boleslaw]

Surely you see that immigration is very good for the Catholic Church in the US?

How is it good? As I said, many of these Catholic immigrants either convert or stop stop practicing major elements of their faith once they become more established within American society.


As it has been for the past 150+ years.

And what about before then? You do realize that by the time the first Protestant settlers came to America, Spanish and French settlers were already celebrating Catholic masses in North America or at least a generation or two? Protestants were johnnys-come-lately. And Catholics even played their role in settling the 13 colonies, especially Maryland(guess how it got its name!).



That's why they support it, it benefits them and their Church tremendously

You and Keikel continously assert this, yet I have yet to see any data that this is so.


There absolutely is in the US

Why is that? Does that tell us more about Catholicism or American culture?


Look at the religious affiliations of the immigrants who are entering Europe, then compare it to the religious affiliations of immigrants coming into the US. There's your answer. ;)

Then why are many Catholic nationalist politicians campaigning against the mass immigration of Eastern Europeans(many of whom are Catholic) for cheap labour?

Also explain to me why some of the most public and vocal voices for immigration restrictions in America are lay Catholics like Pat Buchanan and Sean Hannity(among others)?

[Lenny]

How is it good? As I said, many of these Catholic immigrants either convert or stop stop practicing major elements of their faith once they become more established within American society.Not really. The huge majority (85% of hispanics) remain Catholic. I dont see how you can realistically say otherwise

And what about before then? You do realize that by the time the first Protestant settlers came to America, Spanish and French settlers were already celebrating Catholic masses in North America or at least a generation or two? Protestants were johnnys-come-lately. And Catholics even played their role in settling the 13 colonies, especially Maryland(guess how it got its name!).The US has always been a Protestant nation, and North America has always been a Protestant continent (since white men first came there). The only two places that were historically actually settled by Catholics were Lousiana and Quebec. Maryland was set up as a Catholic settlement and many Catholics went there, but they never had even close to a Catholic majority in the state

You and Keikel continously assert this, yet I have yet to see any data that this is so.What religion are the immigrants into the US then? How can you not see that it benefits the Catholic Church tremendously considering this. Weakening the Protestant US/Protestantism in the US by immigration is also a major goal of theirs and a large benefit for them

Why is that? Does that tell us more about Catholicism or American culture?It tells us that Catholicism is a hostile foreign religion and the Catholic Church is the #1 Enemy (in my opinion) of the US

Also explain to me why some of the most public and vocal voices for immigration restrictions in America are lay Catholics like Pat Buchanan and Sean Hannity(among others)?...

You cant compare a massive powerful wealthy influential organization that obviously works tirelessly against America (the Catholic Church) to two individuals and say that refutes it all

[Boleslaw]

Not really. The huge majority (85% of hispanics) remain Catholic. I dont see how you can realistically say otherwise

Are they practicing Catholics? Here's from an article that actually advocates Hispanic immigration as a way to prop up the Church:

http://www.crisismagazine.com/julaug2005/burger.htm

To be sure, not all Hispanic immigrants are Catholic. Not all are practicing their religion or are even formed in the Faith. But as the immigration debate continues to simmer, Catholics here should consider the potential for this wave of immigration to restore Christian values to America. Is that potential being realized? And is the Church helping to facilitate it?

Conversely, what happens to immigrants living in a society that is both historically Protestant and suffering from secularism, materialism, and the disastrous effects of the sexual revolution? Examples abound of immigrants being corrupted by their new milieu—young men and women who, if they’d remained in their home villages, would continue attending Sunday Mass and would never consider taking on some of the practices they find all too common in their new land: cohabitating, aborting an out-of-wedlock pregnancy, and contracepting in marriage.




The US has always been a Protestant nation, and North America has always been a Protestant continent (since white men first came there).

Since 1776 yes. However I have yet hear anykind of agenda among Catholics saying they want to replace that. In fact on EWTN's World Over Live a few weeks, one commentator noted that studies show that the best situation for American Catholics would be to be a sizable minority within a largely Protestant majority. Why? Because somehow Catholics living within this situation seem to be more traditionalist in their stances on social issues; wheras areas with Catholic majorities for the time being are far more liberal.


What religion are the immigrants into the US then?

There are immigrants from every faith on earth. Hell, I cant go a day without seeing at least 10 Hindus.


How can you not see that it benefits the Catholic Church tremendously considering this.

Because the Catholic Church has never converted nations through invasion. More later.


Weakening the Protestant US/Protestantism in the US by immigration is also a major goal of theirs and a large benefit for them

A more traditionally Catholic and better strategy would be to try to evangelize the native Americans(not Indians) to the Catholic faith. That has been the Catholic strategy since day one. St. Paul didnt import Palestinian Christians to convert Greece. St. Patrick didnt import Britons and Romans to convert Ireland. Ss. Cyril and Methodius did not import Byzantines to convert the Slavs.


It tells us that Catholicism is a hostile foreign religion and the Catholic Church is the #1 Enemy (in my opinion) of the US

No it tells us that American culture is perverted, and the Catholic Church is simply mirroring that corruption; especially given its history of trying to appear more American than the Americans, to overcome anykind of supsicion that the Church was anti-American. Catholics did not invent the notion of America being a land of immigrants.


You cant compare a massive powerful wealthy influential organization that obviously works tirelessly against America (the Catholic Church) to two individuals and say that refutes it all

Their opinions are highly reflected within lay Catholic circles.

[Boleslaw]

Furthermore, the people who scream loudest for Hispanic immigration are more often than not people who also spout all sorts of theological garbage and try to dress it up as authentic Catholicism. How is this a benefit to the Church?

[Lenny]

Are they practicing Catholics?What does it matter how often they go to mass? What matters is that they are overwhelmingly Catholic. That's why their immigration millions-by-the-year is particularly alarming (Catholicization of America) and that's why the Catholic Church is so interested in and supportive of their immigration. I imagine that a larger percentage of them are practicing than non-hispanic US Catholics, anyway.

Since 1776 yes.North America was Protestant a century and a half before 1776 and has always been Protestant since then, though that could change this century thanks to the Catholic immigration invasion :mad:

However I have yet hear anykind of agenda among Catholics saying they want to replace that [Protestant majority]Making America Catholic is one of the primary goals of the Catholic Church, and has been for some time.

"Undoubtedly it is the intention of the Pope to possess this country. In this intention he is aided by the Jesuits, and all the Catholic prelates and priests." (Brownson's Review, May 1864)

"The Catholic Church numbers one-fifth the American population; and if its membership shall increase for the next thirty years as it has the thirty years past, in 1930 Rome will have a majority, and be bound to take this country and keep it. There is, ere long, to be a state religion in this country, and that state religion is to be the Roman Catholic." (Catholic World, July 1870)

"If Catholics ever gain a sufficient numerical majority in this country, religious freedom is at an end. So our enemies say, so we believe." (The Shepherd of the Valley, official Journal of the Bishop of St. Louis, Nov. 23, 1851)

There are immigrants from every faith on earth.The majority of the immigrants into the US are Catholics. Meanwhile maybe one in twenty at most are Protestants.

Because the Catholic Church has never converted nations through invasion. More later.During the Religious Wars of 1520-1650, many regions that had large numbers of Protestants were successfully re-conquered by Catholic forces and forced back into Catholicism. Bohemia is a prime example: it had a Protestant majority in the early 1600s but during one of the bitterest phases of the Religious Wars in the 1610s, Catholic forces invaded and defeated the Bohemian Protestants, and forcibly re-Catholicized the entire nation.

No it tells us that American culture is perverted, and the Catholic Church is simply mirroring that corruptionPerun there is something distrinctly Catholic about supporting and promoting immigration into the US, as there has been since the mid-19th century

Catholics did not invent the notion of America being a land of immigrants.In some ways they did, along with the Jews

Furthermore, the people who scream loudest for Hispanic immigration are more often than not people who also spout all sorts of theological garbage and try to dress it up as authentic Catholicism. How is this a benefit to the Church?It benefits the Catholic Church politically (the Catholic Church is a political organization) and benefits them by increasing their numbers. Theology is irrelevant here

[Hippias]

The majority of the immigrants into the US are Catholics. Meanwhile maybe one in twenty at most are Protestants.

That has more to do with geography than religion. It wouldn't make a difference if Central Americans were Protestants or if they still worshipped Quetzalcoatl. They would still be pouring over our southern border by the hundreds of thousands.

The Lutheran church around here has imported hundreds of Sudanese "refugees." This little town that I grew up in used to be mostly white. Now when I go there to visit my parents I spy dozens of these 65-IQ half-apes in grocery stores and shopping malls. And it's not just happening in my old home town - Lutheran churches across America are doing this too.

http://www.riverblue.com/bellevue/sponsor.html

Do you support the Lutheran church's efforts to bring Sudanese refugees to America, Lenny?

[Boleslaw]

Yes Carl, that's exactly the argument I made in another thread.

[Lenny]

That has more to do with geography than religion. It wouldn't make a difference if Central Americans were Protestants or if they still worshipped Quetzalcoatl. They would still be pouring over our southern border by the hundreds of thousands.You are muddying the waters here :nono: Yes, the fact that they are Catholics is very significant and it makes it much more alarming.
No to the Catholicization of the US!

The Lutheran church around here has imported hundreds of Sudanese "refugees."
...
Do you support the Lutheran church's efforts...There is no "The Lutheran Church". The fact that you refer to "The Lutheran Church" shows that you dont know what you are talking about. As I said in the other thread in which that crazy papist Perun tried to use the same argument, Catholic Church does it 15x as much, and they are more like 100x worse in other more significant areas. (In fact, on the whole the Protestant churches are not bad at all, but on the good side). The ELCA is no subversive threat to the US at all, the Catholic "Church" is a major threat (the biggest threat, in my opinion)