Brilliant reflection from "IQ and the Wealth of Nations"

[Schizo]

They [the authors] also believe that low GDP can cause low IQ, just as low IQ can cause low GDP. (See: Positive feedback)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations


Discuss and enxplain!

I'm also inclined to believe that it's either this or its exact opposite. You either believe in God or that he doesn't exist.
In what really the authors believe!?
I challenge whoever partisan of this book.

[Schizo]

I personally believe that low intelligence creates low GDP
Really?

but anyone claiming I had no empirical evidence for this would be correct,
I'm not interested in non-white person's opinions.

I guess it's gut feeling combined with experience.
Definetely!



I believe that God MAY exist (agnostic), so there are people who aren't the polar opposites and I'm living proof. :p :)
You're living proof that new zealand teens (regardless of their ethnic background) should not participate in discussions of serious problems dealing basicly with the problems of Europe, the same Europe located on the other end of the world. Period.

[Schizo]

Thanks for making this thread about me by the way, I love talking about myself.
My initial intention was to name the thread "Delos, IQ and The Wealth of Nations". I know perfectly well that you're obssesed with the "problem" of IQ and its controversial connection with "the wealth of nations".


I don't see any non-Whites offering their opinion here.
I've read your profile and I know that you're rather "white" whatever that may mean.

[Macrobius]

argumentum ad hominem is not permitted in a 'formal debate'. Anyone White with sufficient IQ and a merely competent education knows this.

Those points in the upper left and lower right trend line, off the main sequence, are interesting. Please discuss.

[Königin Luise von Preußen]

Eugenics isn't just an obsession, it is a large part of my life. If you had an IQ comparable to mine you would be "obsessed" with it too because you'd realise you were surrounded by troglodytes rather than your current thinking that they're just "normal" people.

Low average IQ is what dooms nations, and despite what the likes of Flynn tells us, Western IQs aren't increasing because the world IQ is changing too, moving the average. Low IQ people like living for the moment, they're unable to control their impulses, they take what they like the look of without any respect for another individual because they're incapable of thinking about the consequences of their actions. They say high IQ people lack empathy but I think it's the exact opposite: we have a lot of empathy and that's why we feel so much pity for those with less intellect than us, and this is why stopping people being born into poor families is a worthy goal, because it ends the suffering of future generations while not harming the present, which we got wrong at the start of the 20th century but ultimately perfected into the eugenics that the West enjoys today. Do you think contraceptives just fell out of the sky?the argumentation is quite good, however with the last sentence unfortunately imo it becomes absolutely funny. what kind of liberal-progressive attitude is this, please. this is so 80ies.. why don't you begin to talk about the pollution of the environment, Tschernobyl and becoming vegetarian as a religion..

nothing of worth ever fell off the sky, neither a so called master, (it was just the archangel of evil, who broke a leg and received instead a horse-leg).
- that s what I have heard what people have as a saying.. ..this is the 21.st century, come one..

:)

maybe evolution is the only thing, that simply can not be stopped by no means or power, nor accelerated - there is some kind of equilibrium that we might never be able to understand about mother nature.. but I think, that when a certain point is reached - the development goes backwards.. as well as in the economy the life cycle of a product.. maybe it is the same with civilisation, but thanks God since the post WWII. era there were many things invented like a computer and microwave or the internet - The most important one and best was most probably the computer, called the synthetic intelligence.. so? it is not only not easy to draw conclusions from oneself to the crowd - it is just wrong.

[Schizo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations

Interestingly the chinese (being east-asians) have relatively high IQ, yet they are not dumb but notoriously lack (on the average) sense of humour.

[Schizo]

Interestingly the chinese (being east-asians) have relatively high IQ, yet they are not dumb but notoriously lack (on the average) sense of humour.
Especially Lao Tze, Mao and Kurosava.

[Schizo]

Especially Lao Tze, Mao and Kurosava.

And Che (GueVarra)

[Jewbacca]

It sounds like a which-came-first-chicken-and-egg question: Is GDP responsible for low IQ or is low IQ responsible for GDP?

[Count Sudoku]

IQ can be lowered through low GDP simply because malnutrition and probably some treatable diseases during childhood can lower IQ.

[Thomas_Sankara]

Interestingly the chinese (being east-asians) have relatively high IQ, yet they are not dumb but notoriously lack (on the average) sense of humour.

How do you even emperically establish "sense of humor"? cultural differences make one thing funny to one person in one language or culture, and another to another language or culture.

did you just pull that rabbit out of your ass, little one?

[Omniel]

How do you even emperically establish "sense of humor"? cultural differences make one thing funny to one person in one language or culture, and another to another language or culture.

did you just pull that rabbit out of your ass, little one?
Bravo, grab a post from four months ago and pick it apart for an obviously idiotic and irrelevant point. You can't 'emperically' measure sense of humour eh? What a revelation!

Do the forum a favour and give these junk contributions of yours a permanent rest. And what's with the 'little one' putdown? :nuts:

[Thomas_Sankara]

Yes, grab a post from four months ago and pick it apart for an obviously idiotic and irrelevant point. You can't 'emperically' measure sense of humour eh? What a revelation! Bravo.

Do the forum a favour and give these junk contributions of yours a permanent rest. And what's with the 'little one' putdown? :nuts:

why so mad? or obsessive? I now see you are responding to every post I make. cute. let's hope I didn't raise your blood pressure a few points! lolol

[Omniel]

why so mad? or obsessive? I now see you are responding to every post I make. cute. let's hope I didn't raise your blood pressure a few points! lolol
You've only been here a short while, but you seem to do nothing but post junk. And every post you make? Drivel - if I were to respond to all the rubbish you've contributed so far I'd wear out my keyboard.

[Steinbrink]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations


Discuss and enxplain!

I'm also inclined to believe that it's either this or its exact opposite. You either believe in God or that he doesn't exist.
In what really the authors believe!?
I challenge whoever partisan of this book.

Judging the world empirically, as R.lynn et al do, may be interesting to some, but it will never provide an explanation for the difference between Cultures.

As for GDP.

A world run economically is so dull and boring.

[Sovietamerican2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations


Discuss and enxplain!

I'm also inclined to believe that it's either this or its exact opposite. You either believe in God or that he doesn't exist.
In what really the authors believe!?
I challenge whoever partisan of this book.


For one thing, the Flynn effect, is still ocurring in many developing countries. With this increase in IQ, societies tend to be better developed. In other words, it is obvious, that as the environment slowly gets better, thanks to the efforts of many people within that society, who were able to avoid the detrimental affects of the environment, society becomes more efficient for having people with higher IQ's. People do not suffer from a loss of IQ points if the environment is great, but if it is bad, expect the average person to lose IQ points.
Societies are made by high IQ people, when the society is falling, the IQ decreases. Thus for it to rise again, there needs to be a gradual buildup, with this buildup from the remaining high IQ elite, comes the betterment of the rest of the society, increasing the average IQ of the population. But I see social calamities and disease halting this process. Colonization and decolonization can cause an affect on development as well.People do not start out with low IQ's, it becomes lower, due to economic,social and cultural attributes. So I stand by, saying that civilizations and nations, start out fresh, any bad decision or unfortunate series of events can break that, and cause an IQ decrease. :p

[Muhos]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations


Discuss and enxplain!

I'm also inclined to believe that it's either this or its exact opposite. You either believe in God or that he doesn't exist.
In what really the authors believe!?
I challenge whoever partisan of this book.

high GPD can cause high IQ just as it can cause low IQ
low GPD can cause low IO just as it can cause high IQ
Never red it but it sounds pointless based on the title alone.

[Mikemikev]

Why wouldn't a population operate at the limits set by their genes? Outside of serious malnutrition, neglect or injury the brain develops in line with genetic parameters. I have an extremely hard time swallowing the idea that "foreign discrimination" can depress IQ. IQ cannot be "learned".

[Steinbrink]

Seriously, I.Q. scores are for pricks.

This place is full of them.

[Mikemikev]

Seriously, I.Q. scores are for pricks.

This place is full of them.

You'll find every neuroscience research institute is full of "pricks" too.

[Wodwos]

Are you kidding? IQ and the wealth of nations is one of the most discredited race/intelligence tropes in the history of discredited knowledge. Next.

[Crowley]

Interestingly the chinese (being east-asians) have relatively high IQ, yet they are not dumb but notoriously lack (on the average) sense of humour.

Chinese are robots.

[Crowley]

Are you kidding? IQ and the wealth of nations is one of the most discredited race/intelligence tropes in the history of discredited knowledge. Next.


No, nations full of stupid people tend to be poor and vice versa.

[Wodwos]

No, nations full of stupid people tend to be poor and vice versa.

I don't know enough about that to comment on it since the research is inconclusive as to why that is, but that doesn't change the fact that "IQ and Wealth of Nations" research methodology was a complete sham. I mean if you're going to measure the IQ of nations, use a median age and a number that represents that population at large; "In IQ and the Wealth of Nations", Most of the Ethiopians they measured were Ethiopian jews (seeing as they are an ethnic minority, that already discredits the research due to oversampling), and the numbers and ages seem to just be random: for example, to measure the IQ of Equatorial Guinea, they used 48 people, and only 10-14 year olds. Of course the African nation will look retarded when you measure people who haven't even reached full puberty yet; hence the research is pathetic.

[Crowley]

I don't know enough about that to comment on it since the research is inconclusive as to why that is, but that doesn't change the fact that "IQ and Wealth of Nations" research methodology was a complete sham. I mean if you're going to measure the IQ of nations, use a median age and a number that represents that population at large; "In IQ and the Wealth of Nations", Most of the Ethiopians they measured were Ethiopian jews (seeing as they are an ethnic minority, that already discredits the research due to oversampling), and the numbers and ages seem to just be random: for example, to measure the IQ of Equatorial Guinea, they used 48 people, and only 10-14 year olds. Of course the African nation will look retarded when you measure people who haven't even reached full puberty yet; hence the research is pathetic.

I don't know about that book particularly but Equatorial Guinea doesn't need any help looking stupid. I mean come on, are you seriously suggesting Equatorial Guinea is full of intelligent people on par with White countries, Japan or China?

[Mikemikev]

Are you kidding? IQ and the wealth of nations is one of the most discredited race/intelligence tropes in the history of discredited knowledge. Next.

I offer no opinion on whether "IQ and the wealth of nations is one of the most discredited race/intelligence tropes in the history of discredited knowledge". I merely responded to your assertion that IQ is the concept of "pricks" with the fact that it is supported and in use by all mainstream brain researchers. See for example "Genetics of Brain Structure and Intelligence", "Scans suggest IQ scores reflect brain structure", "Brain Anatomical Network and Intelligence". Do you know something these guys don't? Please enlighten us.

[Transcendentally Challenged]

I don't know about that book particularly but Equatorial Guinea doesn't need any help looking stupid. I mean come on, are you seriously suggesting Equatorial Guinea is full of intelligent people on par with White countries, Japan or China?

Looking at your avatar, I think Equatorial Guinea wouldn't be significantly worse than the bunch of these people.

[Transcendentally Challenged]

I offer no opinion on whether "IQ and the wealth of nations is one of the most discredited race/intelligence tropes in the history of discredited knowledge". I merely responded to your assertion that IQ is the concept of "pricks" with the fact that it is supported and in use by all mainstream brain researchers. See for example "Genetics of Brain Structure and Intelligence", "Scans suggest IQ scores reflect brain structure", "Brain Anatomical Network and Intelligence". Do you know something these guys don't? Please enlighten us.

Brain scientists don't know what these tests show. They merely accept it as granted, that these tests show what they claim to.

Now let me enlighten you:

http://kp.ru/daily/24605.3/775165/

V.A. Vasiljev, Doctor of Physics & Mathematics at the Russian Academy of Sciences, states:

I decided to study the tests themselves without any rush, especially taking into consideration that my answers were constantly off mark for questions related to areas of my professional expertise: logics and geometry.

And so I discovered that most answers offered by the author are incorrect.

And in other instances the person undergoing a test has to make a wild guess, because logic doesn't lead to any specific answer.


Also, coming back to Soviet period, Soviet psychologist L. Vygotsky showed in his work that current IQ level of an underage person gives little information about the perspectives or further intellectual development.

[Ahknaton]

It seems that Wikipedia have deleted the IQ chart that I remember seeing last time this was discussed here. The table is reproduced here:

http://sq.4mg.com/NationIQ.htm

7 African nations are claimed to have average IQs in the 50 and 60s. That's about the same as people with Down Syndrome. I think racial differences in IQ are real, but are they really that low? How could society even function, even a stone age level society?

[Ixtab]

It seems that Wikipedia have deleted the IQ chart that I remember seeing last time this was discussed here. The table is reproduced here:

http://sq.4mg.com/NationIQ.htm

7 African nations are claimed to have average IQs in the 50 and 60s. That's about the same as people with Down Syndrome. I think racial differences in IQ are real, but are they really that low? How could society even function, even a stone age level society?This argument has been addressed several times by Lynn and Rusthon in their works. The very low IQ of some African countries only seems implausible if you don't understand the differences between familial and organic forms of mental retardation. Familial retardation is not related to any physical disorder. It's within the normal range of human differences. Organic retardation, on the other hand, is caused by disease, injury, genetic defects, etc. An individual who suffers from organic retardation is not only deficient in the narrow range of abilities that are measured by IQ tests, but typically defective in all other areas of intelligence as well. An African with a 50 point IQ is not 'retarded' in the sense that we normally understand by the term.

A race with an average IQ of 54 has the cognitive capacity of eight year old European children, although that doesn't necessarily tell us anything about their level of competency in areas that are not measured by cognition tests. Eight year old European children would certainly be able to survive in a primitive society. They could easily be taught to hunt and gather food. After all, eight year olds can be taught much more advanced things - how to read, write, do arithmetic and function relatively well in a modern civilisation.

[Mikemikev]

This argument has been addressed several times by Lynn and Rusthon in their works. It only seems implausible if you don't understand the differences between familial and organic forms of mental retardation...

Apollonian is correct. Retardation that puts an individual way down from his population average is likely to involve a range of comorbid dysfunctions. Thus retarded whites are less functional than blacks with the same IQ.

[Jeff79]

Interestingly the chinese (being east-asians) have relatively high IQ, yet they are not dumb but notoriously lack (on the average) sense of humour.

That would explain why there are very few Asian stand up comedians.

[Ahknaton]

This argument has been addressed several times by Lynn and Rusthon in their works. The very low IQ of some African countries only seems implausible if you don't understand the differences between familial and organic forms of mental retardation. Familial retardation is not related to any physical disorder. It's within the normal range of human differences. Organic retardation, on the other hand, is caused by disease, injury, genetic defects, etc. An individual who suffers from organic retardation is not only deficient in the narrow range of abilities that are measured by IQ tests, but typically defective in all other areas of intelligence as well. An African with a 50 point IQ is not 'retarded' in the sense that we normally understand by the term.

A race with an average IQ of 54 has the cognitive capacity of eight year old European children, although that doesn't necessarily tell us anything about their level of competency in areas that are not measured by cognition tests. Eight year old European children would certainly be able to survive in a primitive society. They could easily be taught to hunt and gather food. After all, eight year olds can be taught much more advanced things - how to read, write, do arithmetic and function relatively well in a modern civilisation.
Fair enough, but then why use a single-dimensional metric like IQ? If an African with an IQ of 70 is not the same as a European with an IQ of 70, why assign them the same number?

[Aleksei]

Studies suggest that childhood nutrition is the biggest environmental contributing factor to IQ, with inadequate nutrition causing a drop of up to 15 points. As GDP affects childhood nutrition, a poor economy does in fact result in a lower mean IQ. India would likely have an IQ comparable to Israel, Chile or Ireland if it had no hunger.

[Schizo]

Agreed, if you're a HIV positive and haven't eaten for two weeks you'll show little to no interest into filling in a form. It's rather the more complex life in industrial societies that develops their "high average IQ".

[Mikemikev]

It seems that Wikipedia have deleted the IQ chart that I remember seeing last time this was discussed here. The table is reproduced here:

http://sq.4mg.com/NationIQ.htm

7 African nations are claimed to have average IQs in the 50 and 60s. That's about the same as people with Down Syndrome. I think racial differences in IQ are real, but are they really that low? How could society even function, even a stone age level society?

When you look at someone with Down's Syndrome, it's not just their IQ that is dysfunctional. They also have a range of movement and speech disorders. So it's not a good comparison.

[Gorilla]

What is the IQ of a lion for instance? My point is, without technology and weapons, intelligence comes to nothing. Complex speech? Try that on a lion. Now you're trying to tell me the lion doesn't understand, because it's stupider than you. Consider the lions perspective-does he care, or would he? What the hell are you? My suggestion is, take the lion seriously.

Intelligence is a nonsense. Don't trust such an idea, trust me.

[Mikemikev]

What is the IQ of a lion for instance? My point is, without technology and weapons, intelligence comes to nothing. Complex speech? Try that on a lion. Now you're trying to tell me the lion doesn't understand, because it's stupider than you. Consider the lions perspective-does he care, or would he? What the hell are you? My suggestion is, take the lion seriously.

Intelligence is a nonsense. Don't trust such an idea, trust me.

Yeah, but in reality, we do have weapons and complex plans. Obviously if you ignore all of the effects of intelligence, intelligence is of no value.

[Gorilla]

Intelligence is a fiction. Something else is necessary for a better understand.

[Mikemikev]

Intelligence is a fiction. Something else is necessary for a better understand.

Get back to us when you know what it is.

[Ixtab]

Fair enough, but then why use a single-dimensional metric like IQ? If an African with an IQ of 70 is not the same as a European with an IQ of 70, why assign them the same number?
Because when matched by IQ, blacks and whites are only the same in their level of cognitive ability. There still remain profound psychological differences between them. IQ tests only measure cognition. They are not intended to measure creativity, personality, memory, concentration, knowledge, and other elements of intelligence, although they may show correlations with other abilities. When the word 'intelligence' is used by psychometricians, it is used in a narrow, technical sense and identified with very specific cognitive processes.

[Schizo]

What is the IQ of a lion for instance? My point is, without technology and weapons, intelligence comes to nothing.Complex speech? Try that on a lion. Now you're trying to tell me the lion doesn't understand, because it's stupider than you. Consider the lions perspective-does he care, or would he? What the hell are you? My suggestion is, take the lion seriously.
Your "point" is vastly off topic. The thread is dedicated to the human intelligence not survival of the species. But for you I will tell that:
1. Humans have been always intelligent enough to avoid lions.
2. Weapons and technology were invented by humans and are result of their intelligence.





Intelligence is a nonsense. Don't trust such an idea, trust me.
:rofl: Please post more!

[Mikemikev]

Because blacks and whites, even when matched by IQ, are only the same in their level of cognitive ability. There still remain profound psychological differences between them. IQ tests only measure cognition. They are not intended to measure creativity, personality, memory, concentration, knowledge, and other elements of intelligence, although they may show correlations with other abilities. When the word 'intelligence' is used by psychometricians, it is used in a narrow, technical sense and identified with very specific cognitive processes.

I'm not sure this is exactly correct. IQ seems to involve memory and concentration. Any individuals matched on IQ can be expected to perform similarly on purely mental tasks.

[Ixtab]

I'm not sure this is exactly correct. IQ seems to involve memory and concentration. Every test involves memory and concentration; that doesn't mean it measures it. Even personality tests involve a degree of concentration. IQ tests do not measure memory or concentration, although they involve these abilities and may show correlations with them.

[Mikemikev]

Every test involves memory and concentration; that doesn't mean it measures it. Even personality tests involve a degree of concentration. IQ tests do not measure memory or concentration, although they involve these abilities and may show correlations with them.

Yes, I agree.

[Ixtab]

This argument has been addressed several times by Lynn and Rusthon in their works. The very low IQ of some African countries only seems implausible if you don't understand the differences between familial and organic forms of mental retardation. Familial retardation is not related to any physical disorder. It's within the normal range of human differences. Organic retardation, on the other hand, is caused by disease, injury, genetic defects, etc. An individual who suffers from organic retardation is not only deficient in the narrow range of abilities that are measured by IQ tests, but typically defective in all other areas of intelligence as well. An African with a 50 point IQ is not 'retarded' in the sense that we normally understand by the term.

A race with an average IQ of 54 has the cognitive capacity of eight year old European children, although that doesn't necessarily tell us anything about their level of competency in areas that are not measured by cognition tests. Eight year old European children would certainly be able to survive in a primitive society. They could easily be taught to hunt and gather food. After all, eight year olds can be taught much more advanced things - how to read, write, do arithmetic and function relatively well in a modern civilisation."Once focused almost entirely on cognition, mental retardation now includes both a component relating to mental functioning and one relating to individuals' functional skills in their environment. As a result, a person with a low IQ may not be considered mentally retarded."