Fighting Back Against Racist Parents

[harjit]

Children of Hate
Fighting Back Against Racist Parents

By Sonia Scherr / Photography by Hannelie Coetzee and Stefan Hester

Shortly after white supremacist James von Brunn's fatal shooting attack this spring at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C., his 32-year-old son issued a statement to ABC News in which he denounced his father's ideology and described the devastating impact it had had on his family.

"My father's beliefs have been a constant source of verbal and mental abuse my family has had to suffer with for many years," he said. "His views consumed him, and in doing so, not only destroyed his life, but destroyed our family and ruined our lives as well."

Erik von Brunn's repudiation of his father's bigotry runs counter to the conventional wisdom that virulent racists will produce children like themselves. Indeed, the movement has its share of parent-child notables, including neo-Nazi leaders Tom and John Metzger, white supremacists Don and Derek Black, and Klan/skinhead organizers Ron and Steven Edwards. But the younger von Brunn is hardly alone in rejecting a parent's beliefs — and experts say that's no surprise.

"Overall, there's not a lot of evidence that, at least in the long term, kids get their prejudice from their parents," said Charles Stangor, who runs the Laboratory for the Study of Social Stereotyping and Prejudice at the University of Maryland. "I would call it more of a community effect than a parental effect. The community fosters tolerance or prejudice."

That community includes peers and other adults, such as teachers, coaches and clergy, said Frances Aboud, a psychology professor at McGill University in Montreal, Canada, who studies the development of racial prejudice in children. "There are so many other influences in a child's life [besides parents], particularly once they start kindergarten."

Children of racial extremists may have to contend with other effects of their parents' bigotry, Aboud said. "I think [they] probably become sensitive to that type of adult; other kids might not be aware that there's that kind of extreme emotional hate toward people," she said. "[Children of racial extremists] might have lived with more fear. They might have felt vulnerable themselves to that kind of hate: What if I cross my parents in some way — am I going to get that hate directed at me?"

To take a closer look at the experience of growing up in a climate of hate, the Intelligence Report spoke with three people whose fathers were deeply involved in racial extremism: the co-founder of a civil rights group who drove her father to Klan meetings when she was a teenager in Arkansas in the 1960s; a former nurse whose father was among the most powerful Klan leaders during the civil rights movement; and a teenager who had to cast aside his entire way of thinking about the world after renouncing his white nationalist father.

Their stories reveal how they developed their own views about race and sense of identity. They also show how bigotry's ill effects often extend beyond its intended targets.

As the daughter of the Arkansas Klansman said: "We are all victims of this type of hate."

[U]Taking on the Klan[/U]
One summer night in 1965, 12-year-old Carolyn Wagner watched as Klansmen bound a young black man to a tree in her father's field, accused him of violating the "sundown" rules in nearby Booneville, Ark., that forbade blacks from staying in town after dark, and lashed him a few times with a bullwhip as he cried out in pain and fear.

It was no different from beatings at other Klan gatherings her father had attended, but what happened next remains vivid in her memory: the Klansmen decided to tie the man to the railroad tracks below the pasture. When they were done, they ambled back to the field to discuss crops and politics. Wagner, a reluctant witness to her father's Klan meetings, couldn't stand it anymore. She stole down to the tracks, used a knife she kept in her boot to slash the rope that bound the man, and told him he could follow the tracks to Fort Smith, the nearest large town.

"That was a turning point," recalled Wagner, now 56 and living in Tulsa, Okla. "I felt like I had made a difference when I was able to cut that man free. I realized I can make a choice to be a passive observer or I can become involved to diminish the harm that they're doing. And that's what I did from that night on, and that's what I'm still doing."

After years working for civil rights and children's organizations, Wagner co-founded Families United Against Hate, a nonprofit group that helps people affected by bias incidents. Her experience growing up with a father in the Klan made her determined and fearless in her fight against hate. "That image of my dad and those men, and even the smells, are still with me, and they'll always be with me. And it was very important that my children never know the world I knew when I was growing up."

It was a world where Wagner's father, Edward Greenwood, and his acquaintances gathered at least once a month at each other's farms for Klan meetings, often bringing their children and grandkids. Because her father, then in his late 50s, couldn't see well enough to drive at night, Wagner ferried him to meetings in a 1951 Chevy pickup. (Back then in rural Arkansas, it wasn't unusual for children as young as 12 to drive on country roads.) The men — including lawyers, judges, cops and pastors — would begin their gatherings with a prayer and eschew alcohol. "They felt like they were doing God's work," Wagner said.

Sometimes, the gatherings would feature a beating like the one Wagner witnessed at her family's farm. The victims were usually young men who'd been picked up on a pretext, such as paying too much attention to a white woman. "We would hear terms like 'coon' hunting," she said. "My father would say, 'I'm going 'coon' hunting.'"

But more often, the men would talk big, complaining about Presidents John F. Kennedy or Lyndon B. Johnson or even threatening to blow up the Supreme Court building. They'd eat bologna sandwiches that Wagner had prepared. Campfire smoke would mingle with the sweet-sour odor of Brylcreem, sweat and Old Spice. It was the one place where her father seemed happy. "I don't remember seeing him smile or laugh unless he was with those goons," she said.

Six feet tall, skinny, and with an olive complexion and horn-rimmed glasses, Edward Greenwood had worked as a sheriff's deputy before World War II and received disability checks for an injury related to his Army service. He believed that women have their place and that children — he had five, including Wagner, the second youngest — are to be seen and not heard. He was abusive toward his family, once burning Wagner with a heated metal bar. She has no memory of liking him or looking up to him. "I never felt in any way that he was correct or behaving in a socially acceptable or a Christian manner."

But her father probably would not have found a home in the Klan if his comrades had known about his heritage. "We knew there was this dirty secret in the family," Wagner said.

In fact, her father's great-great-great grandmother, Elizabeth Greenwood, was part Cherokee and part black, a former slave who'd settled in Arkansas when it was still part of France's Louisiana Territory, according to family lore. Her father had cousins who identified as black, though he would have nothing to do with them. Wagner believes part of his racism stemmed from shame about his origins.

Wagner's mother didn't share her husband's views about race, but she felt powerless to oppose him. Divorce was taboo in her family; resources for victims of domestic abuse were nearly nonexistent. "Mother never asked what he did [at Klan meetings]," Wagner said. "It was like she couldn't bear to know."

Wagner did receive support from her maternal grandparents, who passionately disliked her father. After Wagner secretly untied the black man from the railroad tracks, her maternal grandfather taught her how to use a 12-gauge double-barrel shotgun. She cut away the springs in the seat of the pickup to create a compartment where she hid the weapon, loaded and wrapped in a blanket. Though she never used it, she says she would have done so to defend herself or to help a potential Klan victim.

It wasn't the last time she would defy all that her father represented. In April 1968, Wagner drove him to Memphis to take part in a Klan protest during the sanitation workers strike made famous by the appearance of Martin Luther King Jr. She was there when the civil rights leader was assassinated. In a Memphis newspaper, she read that the Department of Justice was planning a crackdown on the perpetrators of civil-rights era violence. After the assassination of Robert Kennedy two months later, Wagner, then 15, wrote a letter to the FBI accompanied by a list of names and addresses she'd copied from her father's Klan directory. She wanted to get them all arrested. "I included my dad on that list," she said.

Wagner, who used her maternal grandparents' home as the return address, never heard back from the FBI.

She left home the day she finished high school and at 19 eloped with Bill Wagner, now her husband of 37 years. Her father died in 1980 when she was pregnant with her younger child, William. "I am so grateful that my children will have no memory of him or his politics," she said.

But her own memories of her father came back strongly on William's 14th birthday, the day he told his parents that he was gay. That day she and her husband's biggest concern was for their son's safety. "I had a very clear understanding of who the hatemongers were," she said. They decided to move from their farm in tiny Booneville, a conservative town where homosexuality was widely condemned, to the more liberal university town of Fayetteville, some 120 miles away.

Still, they couldn't protect their son from hate. Harassment at school culminated in a brutal assault in 1996. William, then 16, left school with friends to get lunch at a nearby convenience store when six teenagers shouted anti-gay slurs. They knocked him off his feet, then kicked him as he lay bleeding on the ground. "I thought about how easily that could have been my father's group," Wagner recalled. "And I wasn't there."

Two of the attackers were convicted of assault. After the Wagners filed a complaint on behalf of their son under Title IX, the federal anti-discrimination law, Fayetteville became the first public school district in the nation to enter into an agreement with the Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights that required it to protect all students, including gays and lesbians, from harassment. The Wagners continue to advocate for young people who are targeted because of their actual or perceived sexual orientation.

Looking back on her childhood, Wagner remembers reading novels by Pearl S. Buck and biographies about women such as Harriet Tubman and Florence Nightingale. She wanted to learn about people who had survived difficult circumstances to help others, because she was determined to do the same.

"I found ways to survive," she said. "I found ways to more than survive — to endure, to become stronger and to make our little corner of the world in the South a little better."

[U]Her Father's Daughter[/U]
Cindy Foster will never forget the face in the window.

She woke up in the middle of the night, sat up in bed, and saw a man — she believes it was a white man — peering through her bedroom window. It was the early 1960s in a small Alabama city, and her family had just received a bomb threat from the Black Panthers because of her father's notoriety as a Klan leader.

Foster, then about 6, tried to scream for help but her voice failed. Then the face disappeared. She later found out it was probably an FBI agent checking on her family's safety.

The midnight memory is just one example of how her late father's Klan activities cast an uneasy shadow over her childhood. The family received other threats; she recalls long stretches of wariness punctuated by moments of fear. That legacy continued to haunt her as an adult. She suffered from nightmares, was constantly vigilant, and didn't easily trust others. She saw a therapist for several years and was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, an anxiety condition that can develop after frightening events. And she struggled to assert her own identity in the hometown where nearly everyone knew who her father was and assumed she shared his views about race.

"I just wanted to be me — not my father's daughter," said Foster, who now lives in northern Florida. (The Intelligence Report agreed not to identify her father, who died in 2003, to protect Foster's privacy.)

In fact, Foster held beliefs very different from her father's — a phenomenon she attributes partly to her faith. As a child of about 4 attending Sunday school in her family's Methodist Church, she sang that Christ's love is colorblind: "Jesus loves the little children/all the children of the world/black and yellow, red and white/They're all precious in his sight."

"I realized at a very young age that you either had to believe what the church taught or what my father stood for," she said. "And what I saw my father doing was wrong."

He didn't try to change her thinking. "He never pushed his opinion on us. He let us make up our mind. He didn't like it, but he believed it was our right to believe as we believed."

Because their father was so often away at Klan rallies, Foster and her two younger siblings were raised mostly by their mother and paternal grandfather. Sometimes, the children would join their father at a Klan event. When Foster was five, her mother reluctantly took them to a large rally in her hometown. As Foster played jacks with her younger sister, Klansmen burned three crosses, including one that had toppled over before it was set on fire, injuring a Klansman. Mostly Foster remembers hundreds of men in white robes. "I was terrified," she said. "They looked like ghosts."

Occasionally, her father enlisted Foster and her siblings to help with mailings of his Klan newsletter. Though their mother didn't like her children taking part in Klan activities, she lived in an era when women were expected to obey their husbands. "She stood by him. I never could understand why she didn't divorce him and get us out of that situation. [But] she came from a very religiously strict family. Once you married, you stayed married."

Her father's motivations were more of a puzzle. He'd served as a pilot in the Air Force and had taken law classes at the University of Alabama. "My dad was a very intelligent man, and he could have gone so far in politics or anything he'd chosen to do. And I never got a chance to ask him why — why did he hate blacks so much? That's something I'll carry to my grave.

"I think it's a shame he didn't use his talents in other ways, because he could sway people so easily — a perfect salesman."

Foster became a nurse, married and raised two children. For several years she volunteered as a Girl Scout leader, often working with black children from poor families. "I wanted to go out and do something for humanity and show that I believed differently than he did," she said.

Yet she felt guilty when she once took the girls to her home, because she knew it bothered her father, who lived next door. It was part of what she describes as a love-hate relationship with the man whose racism haunted her childhood.

"I hated what he did," she said, "but I loved him as a father."

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=1110

(continued)

[harjit]

Stephan
Sixteen-year-old Stephan Mills rejected his father's racism despite years of indoctrination. Psychologists say that is more common than many people think. Stephan's mother says that thanks to her ex-husband, Stephan "had to relearn [how] to be a civilized human."
The Price of Hate
When Stephan Mills was 10 or 11, his father sat him and his older sister down after supper one night and told them that if they ever became emotionally involved with someone of color, he would kill them.

"I just nodded in agreement," said Stephan, now 16.

The incident seemed normal to a boy who for years had been steeped in his father's bigotry. Arthur Kemp, a South African white supremacist who has ties to British and American hate groups, indoctrinated his children with racist and anti-Semitic beliefs from the time they were very young. Stephan mostly adopted those views as his own. Several years ago, however, he rejected all that his father stood for. The experience would radically change his life and lead to his ongoing estrangement from his father, who's now divorced from his mother and believed to be living in England.

"Stephan's resentment toward his father is based partly on the fact that, in his sister's words, he had to relearn to be a civilized human," said his mother, Karen Mills. (Karen and Stephan Mills live near Johannesburg, South Africa, and the Intelligence Report interviewed them by phone and E-mail).

There was a lot to relearn. Arthur Kemp "was a very involved and doting father" when his children were small, Karen Mills said. He read to them often, carefully choosing books he felt would reinforce his ideology. Among them were the original "Noddy" series, English children's books that featured Golliwogs, dark-skinned caricatures that were later removed from the text because they were deemed racist. In one of Kemp's favorite Noddy books, the Golliwogs steal Noddy's car. Kemp enjoyed telling his children that the Golliwogs' theft of the car amounted to typical behavior for blacks.

But it wasn't only in books that Kemp found justification for his racism; post-apartheid South Africa offered plenty for him to complain about. "He tried to imprint on the children how bad Africa and everything here was," Karen Mills wrote. After striking workers toppled trashcans, for instance, "Arthur took the children into the main streets of the town and made them walk among the rubbish."

He also forbade socializing with non-white children. If they arrived at a friend's party to find that a black child had also been invited, Kemp made his children go home. When Stephan was six, his father reluctantly took him and his sister to swimming lessons at a public pool where one of the children turned out to be black. "He told us to get out and that we were leaving," said Stephan, who now uses his mother's maiden name. "I was still pretty young so I didn't really understand what was going on."

Kemp's attitude didn't change even when his children's health was at stake. When the family was living in Britain, he plucked his 6-year-old daughter, Joanne, from the dentist's chair rather than allow her to be treated by an Indian dentist, Karen Mills said. As a result, she suffered for three days with a tooth abscess.

When his children grew older, he allowed them to listen only to "white resistance" bands. Rap, especially, was prohibited. Although baseball caps, sneakers, baggy pants and big T-shirts were in fashion, he considered these items "ghetto nigger" clothing and wouldn't let his children wear them.

He also relished showing them articles and statistics that purported to prove that blacks were inferior. He contended that blacks could never be race car drivers because they have poor depth perception, that they cannot swim because their bones are too dense, that they are not as intelligent because their brains are smaller.

"The children were actively encouraged to be vocal about their views and to challenge their peers," Karen Mills wrote. "In Stephan's case in particular, this resulted in him being ostracized and made an outcast as he followed his father's lead."

Stephan said he had few friends until his first year of high school. At times, he suffered from depression because his father's brainwashing had so alienated him from his peers, his mother said.

"I wasn't really someone that people wanted to hang around with," Stephan said. "They regarded me as weird because I was constantly talking about Hitler."

Karen Mills said she initially went along with her husband's views to please him, but the marriage grew troubled as he devoted himself increasingly to far-right politics. She refused to read his opus on white superiority, March of the Titans: A History of the White Race, and criticized him in front of their children.

With his marriage collapsing, Arthur Kemp became violent, especially toward Stephan, Karen Mills said. Once, when Stephan was about eight, he hit his son's face until his nose bled and blood spattered on the bedroom wall, she said. He stopped only when the maid's screams brought Karen rushing into the room and she pulled Kemp off Stephan. Later, Kemp allegedly beat Stephan while his mother was at work. The backs of Stephan's legs were so swollen that he could not bend them to get into his bath. "If you ever hit my child again," she told Kemp, "I'll kill you."

Still, she did not report the incidents to the police. "You try to block it out because maybe it's more than you can deal with," said Mills, a lawyer who now works for the South African government. "You hope that it'll resolve itself and turn a blind eye."

Kemp dismissed the allegations from his former wife in an E-mail to the Intelligence Report. "It is all a pack of lies from a mentally ill person," he wrote. "I am disappointed that you would stoop to exploiting a person with severe psychological problems in this way." Karen Mills responded that Kemp has always claimed she's mentally ill simply because she disagrees with him.

Mills still feels guilty for allowing her children to suffer what she now sees as both physical and emotional abuse. "Why couldn't I do something?" she asked. "I just never stood up to him."

Kemp's persistence in forcing his beliefs on his children — along with his disengagement from their lives as he immersed himself in white nationalism — led them to question their father and the values he espoused, Karen Mills said. In a September 2008 post on the anti-racist site Lancaster Unity, Stephan called his father a "racist ass" and said he should be deported to South Africa. He wrote: "I remember almost every night when we would ask for a bedtime story (when most NORMAL fathers would read their children a normal book) he would instead tell us stories about how the white race was all supreme and then read us chapters from his horrible book "March of the White Titans" [sic]. Well dad if you ever read this or even hear about it I just wanted to let you know that I HATE YOU!! You have no idea what i went through at school because of you, you twisted my mind and made my entire childhood a horrible misery."

As his wife and children lost respect for him, Kemp withdrew further from the family. Karen Mills believes that's because they no longer fit his image of the model right-wing family that would help him achieve his political goals. "His political beliefs are the absolute be-all and end-all of his life," she said. "I think the reason why he's cut the children off is they don't conform to his political beliefs and aspirations."

Instead, "he began to seek out people who admired him and particularly his book," she recalled. "The admiration, and in particular the view of him as this great right-wing academic, became his main driving force."

He left the family in November 2006. "Picture this situation," Stephan wrote in November 2008 on Lancaster Unity. "I am fast asleep on thursday morning and when i wake i find that he is gone and then i receive a phone call from him telling me he is on a flight to London… THIS ASSHOLE DIDNT EVEN HAVE THE MANNERS TO SAY GOODBYE TO MY FACE!! I have not seen my father in now [a]bout two and [a] bit years."

Karen Mills said Kemp has had almost no contact with his children since the divorce. "I don't think there's any way that Arthur could fix the broken relationship with Stephan," she said. Nonetheless, "Stephan has gone through something of a catharsis." In addition to his posts on Lancaster Unity, he chose to discuss his father when he was assigned to give a school speech on someone who had influenced him — only he said his father's influence had been entirely negative. Now, his social life is improving, and he has resolved to be as unlike his father as possible. "I am stuck with some of his traits and characteristics — Mom used to joke with me that I have the Kemp laziness gene — but definitely not his political views," he said.

Yet there's no bringing back the years he lost to his father's hate. "You," he wrote to him in the September 2008 Lancaster Unity post, "will never understand what you have done to me."
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=1110

[harjit]

Wow, this was about that Arthur Kemp! Unsurprising that he has a messed-up home life, and his kids want nothing to do with him.
Karen Mills said she initially went along with her husband's views to please him, but the marriage grew troubled as he devoted himself increasingly to far-right politics. She refused to read his opus on white superiority, March of the Titans: A History of the White Race, and criticized him in front of their children.

Kemp's persistence in forcing his beliefs on his children — along with his disengagement from their lives as he immersed himself in white nationalism — led them to question their father and the values he espoused, Karen Mills said. In a September 2008 post on the anti-racist site Lancaster Unity, Stephan called his father a "racist ass" and said he should be deported to South Africa. He wrote: "I remember almost every night when we would ask for a bedtime story (when most NORMAL fathers would read their children a normal book) he would instead tell us stories about how the white race was all supreme and then read us chapters from his horrible book "March of the White Titans" [sic]. Well dad if you ever read this or even hear about it I just wanted to let you know that I HATE YOU!! You have no idea what i went through at school because of you, you twisted my mind and made my entire childhood a horrible misery."
:thumbsup:

[Tellurocrat]

I see where you're going, and some actions there are commendable, like the 12-year old saving the man from the train, and others condemnable, like how many WNs are so consumed by ideology that they ignore their families, but I think much of this reaction is based on comparison to what is acceptable to the society in general.

That's what makes March of the Titans a horrible book and stories about how the white race is superior so unbearable. Otherwise, how would kids know the difference? Sure, MotT is silly and vulgar on a historical level, but how would kids know that? The superiority of the white race according to Kemp is probably based on a lot of mythology, but why would kids find a problem with that? The reaction must be partly that at the time they were influenced either by their mother or by society in general to react against those kinds of stories, or that later on in life they recognized that the myths they had imbibed as kids were unacceptable if they wanted to lead a normal life, and so they reacted strongly against them.

Doesn't have to be a strong moral choice to rebel against racist parents. In fact it's probably the easiest moral choice one will ever be faced with.

[Jake Featherston]

I see where you're going, and some actions there are commendable, like the 12-year old saving the man from the train

While I (would have) fully supported the "Sundown Towns" policy, and generally believe the 1950s-60s era Klan was a force for good (albeit a largely ineffectual one, at least in the long term), I don't think one has to be an anti-racist to feel a natural sympathy for a guy tied to railroad tracks. Unless he was some sort of murderer or rapist, I probably would have cut him loose too.

[Tellurocrat]

I agree, but I wouldn't be surprised with a considerable number of WNs and other racists of various races, who'd consider foreign races as a lethal enemy regardless of what they actually do.

[Jake Featherston]

I agree, but I wouldn't be surprised with a considerable number of WNs and other racists of various races, who'd consider foreign races as a lethal enemy regardless of what they actually do.

In some sense, they're right. But you can't be a fanatic 24/7. Well, I guess you can, but I wouldn't recommend it.

[Grapple]

You have no idea what i went through at school because of you, you twisted my mind and made my entire childhood a horrible misery."
So the son hates his father because of what the supposedly open minded liberals who run the schools did to him? Why weren’t the open minded progressives accepting of these beliefs?

[Starr]

It is one thing to have issues with your parents because they did not treat you so well, it is another entirely to dislike them in this kind of way because of their political views. Even if you disagree with their views almost all of them have the views they do out of concern for your future and the future of your children and grandchildren. I suppose it makes sense unforunately when the idea these kids are constantly getting from the larger society is that these kinds of views mean their parents are evil.

[Winston]

The children are torn between their parents and societal pressures. It's sad really.

[Stanley]

Shortly after white supremacist James von Brunn's fatal shooting attack this spring at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C., his 32-year-old son issued a statement to ABC News in which he denounced his father's ideology and described the devastating impact it had had on his family.Public denunciation of one's father for his thoughtcrime seems so Soviet. But then this piece does come from the SPLC.

[Empress Cheesatine]

Another trash bit not worth reading. As is usual, the only ones focused on when "racism" is brought up whites... Harjit's threads are great sleeping aids.

[Empress Cheesatine]

Public denunciation of one's father for his thoughtcrime seems so Soviet. But then this piece does come from the SPLC.

I believe Orwell called such intervention crimestop.

[Golobulus]

Another trash bit not worth reading. As is usual, the only ones focused on when "racism" is brought up whites... Harjit's threads are great sleeping aids.
yes, fartjit says he doesn't hate the White race, and so I'll be waiting for him to make ten thousand posts against non-white racists - Any time now.

[Universe-Hun]

I've seen this with my own eyes.
A skinhead's daughter dating non-whites; A single mother racial activist's daughter co-mingling with non-Whites.
Two cases I am personally aware of that pop to my head, and I am sure it there was more.

Kids tend to rebel against whatever their parents shove down their throat. Also in many of these cases I am sure it comes from an ignorant place, like "these fucking niggers" "goddamn kikes run the world"; kids probably overhear these rants, and while very young buy into it; but when they start to develop they start to see the hypocrisy of their parents.

Just look at any WN forum and it is overloaded with ranting, bitching, crying hypocrites. And Im sure they would conduct themselves in the same manner around their kids.

For any one who is a "race realist", the best way to go about things is to provide information, and philosophy from every direction. Make sure they do good in the public schools, and make sure they tear through your personal library.
In the end, they will reach their own conclusions, but if you, were more like a teacher than a drill instructor, then regardless of what they choose in life, it will not be because of ignorance.

[Jake Featherston]

If you associate extensively with particularly non-college educated Blacks, its almost certain you will eventually come to regret it. Teenagers and people in their 20s often don't know this, but they do tend to learn it over the years.

[Count Sudoku]

The children are torn between their parents and societal pressures. It's sad really.

We should physically form our own society then.

This does work both ways though. Some parents who are liberals have kids who are racists.

[Arrow Cross]

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/Shanebrown18/1209272322389.jpg

This is what happens to so-called "libertarian" racialists who refuse to give their children a properly strict and consequent upbringing. In a hostile era when one-worldist agenda flows into the kids' ears on more channels and through more mediums than they could count, such parents should re-double their efforts to ensure their sane beliefs are engraved in their children's minds and hearts as soon as possible.

Already in their teens, it is too late.

[GimpFuFighting]

lol yet another NOT RACIST™ self-loathing whitebread fool who doesn't realize that denouncing your 'racist' parents won't do anything for your career since nog races will see you as guilty by association.

Sigh, just another Jew puppet that deserves to be put up against a brick wall and shot. Phora's curry dog harjit wastes yet more time.

[Flint Steel]

I've seen this with my own eyes.
A skinhead's daughter dating non-whites; A single mother racial activist's daughter co-mingling with non-Whites.
Two cases I am personally aware of that pop to my head, and I am sure it there was more.

Kids tend to rebel against whatever their parents shove down their throat.

No they don't. The problem is the marxists in the schools, and the marxists in the media. They specifically target our children with their propaganda. Kids want to fit in and films stars, pop stars, journalists of their magazines and TV presenters give them an 'alternative' view of the world, a multicultural view.

[Flint Steel]

If you associate extensively with particularly non-college educated Blacks, its almost certain you will eventually come to regret it. Teenagers and people in their 20s often don't know this, but they do tend to learn it over the years.

I would say the same applies to associating with Catholics in my experience as well.

[Universe-Hun]

No they don't. The problem is the marxists in the schools, and the marxists in the media. They specifically target our children with their propaganda. Kids want to fit in and films stars, pop stars, journalists of their magazines and TV presenters give them an 'alternative' view of the world, a multicultural view.
Its a double pronged attack, yes "pop culture" and the multi-culti trends lead kids to want to fit in. But if you raise your kids right they will know what is before them.
Parents who just rant on about non-whites in front of their kids tend to push their kids away. Especially when these parents rant on about how much "better" whites are while they are drinking beer in a garage listening to RAC, doing not much in their life to show how they are "better".

Like I said, seen it with my own eyes, more than a couple times.

[Sonya]

Parents who just rant on about non-whites in front of their kids tend to push their kids away. Especially when these parents rant on about how much "better" whites are while they are drinking beer in a garage listening to RAC, doing not much in their life to show how they are "better".


I agree. Telling someone what to believe can backfire, exposing them to information and letting them think they are drawing their own conclusions is far more effective. If parents are too extreme, for instance telling their kids that all blacks are violent and stupid, they run the risk of having their view totally discredited when that kid eventually meets a "nice" black person.

[Count Sudoku]

I agree. Telling someone what to believe can backfire, exposing them to information and letting them think they are drawing their own conclusions is far more effective. If parents are too extreme, for instance telling their kids that all blacks are violent and stupid, they run the risk of having their view totally discredited when that kid eventually meets a "nice" black person.

All you have to do is tell the truth about blacks and Jews.

[Starr]

For any one who is a "race realist", the best way to go about things is to provide information, and philosophy from every direction. Make sure they do good in the public schools, and make sure they tear through your personal library.
In the end, they will reach their own conclusions, but if you, were more like a teacher than a drill instructor, then regardless of what they choose in life, it will not be because of ignorance.


The child will naturally be drawn to people who are more like themselves. The first step would be to play that up as much as possible. Make sure they do not put that instinct on the back burner because of what they are being taught about how wonderful diversity is,etc. Teach them an affinity for their own, their people, their culture,etc. Teach them all about how great their people and culture is. They will hear the exact opposite elsewhere and you will strongly need to counteract that.

If the racial realities you teach them come with a lot of extremely negative talk about other peoples you walk a fine line. Some will indeed seek these people out when they go through their rebellious stage. Many other people only rebel to what they know is the very edge of what is acceptable and do not go beyond that and they will know mixing with blacks,etc. is too far over the line. It is best, probably, to avoid this because of the first possibility. You cannot send mixed messages though. You have to be firm about your opposition to anything like that without nigger this or spic that. If you are not firm enough or send those mixed messages than they may begin to see something like race mixing as acceptable rebellion.
You also do need to teach your kids about things like black crime. For one major thing this is a matter of safety. It should be taught more in a matter of fact sort of way not with a "niggers are violent animals" attitude or anything like that.

The jewish question is a little bit more complicated. I think maybe it is best to wait until they are a little bit older with this.

[I am a Noun]

So the son hates his father because of what the supposedly open minded liberals who run the schools did to him? Why weren’t the open minded progressives accepting of these beliefs?

He hates his father because the man was behaved abnormal. If your kid is asking for a bed time story and your concerned with passing along European culture to your kids then choose something like a child's watered down version of King Arthur to read. What you don't do is read them your self-published book.

If the guy didn't know that much, I wonder what other nonsense he pulled.

[Sonya]

If the racial realities you teach them come with a lot of extremely negative talk about other peoples you walk a fine line. Some will indeed seek these people out when they go through their rebellious stage. Many other people only rebel to what they know is the very edge of what is acceptable and do not go beyond that and they will know mixing with blacks,etc. is too far over the line. It is best, probably, to avoid this because of the first possibility. You cannot send mixed messages though.

Definitely, saying "all blacks are violent and stupid" really sets you up for failure especially if you raise the kids in a safe primarily white environment. The kid WILL come across nice blacks, they will have a friend of a friend that is black and seems normal. You need to prepare them for the "exceptions", you need to tell them they will meet individual blacks that seem normal but that many whites are sadly fooled by that as put themselves in danger by thinking they are ALL like that.


You also do need to teach your kids about things like black crime. For one major thing this is a matter of safety.

The jewish question is a little bit more complicated. I think maybe it is best to wait until they are a little bit older with this.

Yes with blacks it is a safety thing. I think grouping the warnings about blacks and Jews together could lead to disaster. Children don't have to worry about being attacked by random Jews or live in fear of being suddenly surrounded by a violent pack of them when the Temple lets out.

[Michael Vilmar Avery]

Children don't have to worry about being attacked by random Jews or live in fear of being suddenly surrounded by a violent pack of them when the Temple lets out.

Are you sure about that?


http://info-wars.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/rachel-corrie.jpg


http://www.the7thfire.com/images/zionistmobattack.gif

[Felix the Cat]

But her own memories of her father came back strongly on William's 14th birthday, the day he told his parents that he was gay. That day she and her husband's biggest concern was for their son's safety. How the hell does a 14-year old know that he's "gay"? Who puts these ideas into kids heads?

[Monty]

How the hell does a 14-year old know that he's "gay"? Who puts these ideas into kids heads?

You've been here since 2005 and you have to ask?

[Felix the Cat]

It reminds me of this story (http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=34850) from a couple of years ago. It's dangerous and irresponsible to expose young children to ideas like this.

[Jake Featherston]

How the hell does a 14-year old know that he's "gay"? Who puts these ideas into kids heads?

I would think by age 14, one would know which sex one thinks about while one masturbates.

[DonaldT]

Personally I think kids shouldn't be introduced to race issues and political issues until they're well into their 20s. Even Adolf Hitler agreed on that.

Though, the problem is, anti-racists don't seem to think the same thing. They're basically determined to indoctrinate kids as young as 3. Same goes for Marxists.

[Felix the Cat]

Regarding Kemp, are his ideas at all unusual in South Africa? I'd expect attitudes like this to be fairly normal there. He may be an extreme case but there's bound to be a culture clash when SAians settle in Britain and other European countries where race still isn't a big deal.

[Nemesis]

Sixteen-year-old Stephan Mills rejected his father's racism despite years of indoctrination.

Because of state sponsored indoctrination, no doubt.


Personally I think kids shouldn't be introduced to race issues and political issues until they're well into their 20s. Even Adolf Hitler agreed on that.

Though, the problem is, anti-racists don't seem to think the same thing. They're basically determined to indoctrinate kids as young as 3. Same goes for Marxists.

Exactly. Harjit, this is a stupid fucking thread. Like we're the main indoctrinators in America. What a joke.

My parents we're nigger/fag/spic loving hippies...and look at me! I've been told I'm Hitler's reincarnation.

Our parents can't "indoctrinate" shit. In fact, most kids go against their parents. Throw intolerable minorities in the mix and you've got yourself a "racist".

[Nemesis]

How the hell does a 14-year old know that he's "gay"? Who puts these ideas into kids heads?

I knew I was hetero when I was 14. Hell, I knew I was hetero when I was 12. I didn't call it "hetero", I called it "fuck, she's hot".

You look at a certain person from one of the sexes and your dick gets hard. It ain't rocket science. It's not about sitting up at night trying to figure out what it is your feeling and why, you just go with it. For fags it's probably a lot more difficult, or at least it used to be, but it's not some super complicated thing that most people have to dwell on. It just happens, like hunger or fatigue. The only difference is that most fags used to keep it to themselves. Now, they're loud and proud...and really fucking annoying.

[calvin]

It was no different from beatings at other Klan gatherings her father had attended, but what happened next remains vivid in her memory: the Klansmen decided to tie the man to the railroad tracks below the pasture. When they were done, they ambled back to the field to discuss crops and politics. Wagner, a reluctant witness to her father's Klan meetings, couldn't stand it anymore. She stole down to the tracks, used a knife she kept in her boot to slash the rope that bound the man, and told him he could follow the tracks to Fort Smith, the nearest large town.

"That was a turning point," recalled Wagner, now 56 and living in Tulsa, Okla. "I felt like I had made a difference when I was able to cut that man free. I realized I can make a choice to be a passive observer or I can become involved to diminish the harm that they're doing. And that's what I did from that night on, and that's what I'm still doing."

Yeah right! This is spawned from a more selfrighteous version of the impulse that causes so many false confessions to sensational murders. She's a fucking liar. Her story could be easily substantiated, but isn't. Another holocaust victim "raised by wolves" fantasy.

[Thomas_Sankara]

Personally I think kids shouldn't be introduced to race issues and political issues until they're well into their 20s. Even Adolf Hitler agreed on that.

Though, the problem is, anti-racists don't seem to think the same thing. They're basically determined to indoctrinate kids as young as 3. Same goes for Marxists.
You're right, it's only the "Marxists" who indoctrinate children: :tard2:

http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/classes/133p/133p04papers/133p04papimg/hitleryouthCr.jpg

http://gulagbound.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/hitler-youth.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_nk0nTbUo2m4/R_zn5SGx-vI/AAAAAAAAAd0/DXen_lqa154/s400/hitleryouth.jpg
<FLAME DELETED>

[Basil Fawlty]

@Thomas Sankara - no flaming anywhere except in the lounge.

[Thomas_Sankara]

@Thomas Sankara - no flaming anywhere except in the lounge.

Understood and acknowledged.

[DonaldT]

You're right, it's only the "Marxists" who indoctrinate children: :tard2:

http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/classes/133p/133p04papers/133p04papimg/hitleryouthCr.jpg

http://gulagbound.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/hitler-youth.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_nk0nTbUo2m4/R_zn5SGx-vI/AAAAAAAAAd0/DXen_lqa154/s400/hitleryouth.jpg
<FLAME DELETED>

http://www.hollow-hill.com/sabina/images/no-shit-sherlock.jpg

I'm merely pointing out that anti-racists indoctrinate kids just as much (If not more) than racists nowadays. This point is in response to the OP and the topic in general.

Anti-racists seem to be under the impression that racists brainwash kids whereas marxists and anti-racists don't. And you have basically embodied this is your post above.

[Thomas_Sankara]

http://www.hollow-hill.com/sabina/images/no-shit-sherlock.jpg

I'm merely pointing out that anti-racists indoctrinate kids just as much (If not more) than racists nowadays. This point is in response to the OP and the topic in general.

Anti-racists seem to be under the impression that racists brainwash kids whereas marxists and anti-racists don't. And you have basically embodied this is your post above.

You said Hitler didn't believe in indoctrinating children. and as grand Fuhrer und Reichskanzler, he had enough say to stop such movements as the Hitler Youth (which in case you didn't notice, bore his name). so why didn't he?

Personally I think kids shouldn't be introduced to race issues and political issues until they're well into their 20s. Even Adolf Hitler agreed on that.

Well quite obviously, your fuhrer didn't say what he said he did, now did he? that or he was a hypocrite and a liar...

[DonaldT]

You said Hitler didn't believe in indoctrinating children. and as grand Fuhrer und Reichskanzler, he had enough say to stop such movements as the Hitler Youth (which in case you didn't notice, bore his name). so why didn't he?

Well Adolf Hitler wrote that, and yes, it is rather contradictory, however, even if he didn't follow it word for word, he still probably believed this to a certain extent.

Well quite obviously, your fuhrer didn't say what he said he did, now did he? that or he was a hypocrite and a liar...

'Your Fuhrer?' What makes you think I support Adolf Hitler? That's a pretty big assumption and show of ignorance on your part, TS.

Anyway, yes, Adolf Hitler was rather contradictory and there are many, many racist people who indoctrinate kids.

That being said TS, are you balanced enough to admit anti-racists and marxists are just as guilty, if not more guilty, of indoctrinating kids? Furthermore, are you even-handed enough to admit that anti-racists complaining about child manipulation is in itself extremely contradictory?

Any indoctrination of kids (Both racist and anti-racist) bothers me to a certain degree. The difference being, anti-racists are praised for deliberately doing it. Whereas, most racist indoctrination by parents occurs unintentionally.

[Thomas_Sankara]

'Your Fuhrer?' What makes you think I support Adolf Hitler? That's a pretty big assumption and show of ignorance on your part, TS.

your ilk make no distinction for our apparachiks, so why should I extend the same courtesy?


Anyway, yes, Adolf Hitler was rather contradictory and there are many, many racist people who indoctrinate kids.

yes, the man was clearly insane.

That being said TS, are you balanced enough to admit anti-racists and marxists are just as guilty, if not more guilty, of indoctrinating kids? Furthermore, are you even-handed enough to admit that anti-racists complaining about child manipulation is in itself extremely contradictory?

I don't know exactly see how anti-racists "indoctrinate", seeing as there is no vanguard of anti-racists, but rather many loose coalitions that don't organize beyond saying slogans and handing out pamphlets. Marxists, yes, they do have youth groups and etcetera, but unlike the Hitler youth, in many countries, membership of the communist youth was more a privilege than a legal obligation.

Any indoctrination of kids (Both racist and anti-racist) bothers me to a certain degree. The difference being, anti-racists are praised for deliberately doing it.

And who praises indoctrination? saying "teh j0oz media" or some other politically equivalent catch-all boogeyman doesn't satisfy the question.

Whereas, most racist indoctrination by parents occurs unintentionally.

Since you've made no research into it, you don't know if that's BS or not. for all we know, many people who get threatened/punished with disownment or physical violence for having a black boyfriend or a multiracial plethora of friends would probably consider their parent's actions "indoctrination".

[DonaldT]

your ilk make no distinction for our apparachiks, so why should I extend the same courtesy?

You don't need to. Though, anti-racists slogan seems to be 'equality,' so one could say you're being extraordinarily hypocritical and only being fair-minded when it suits you.

yes, the man was clearly insane.

Can I just point out that Marx, Lenin and Stalin were also insane?

I don't know exactly see how anti-racists "indoctrinate", seeing as there is no vanguard of anti-racists, but rather many loose coalitions that don't organize beyond saying slogans and handing out pamphlets.

Well, if media organizations, such as the ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) have anti-racism scribbled into their actual charters, I would say it's basically an anti-racist organization. Many media organizations are like this and basically disallow anything remotely racist and are told to promote diversity by their bosses.


Marxists, yes, they do have youth groups and etcetera, but unlike the Hitler youth, in many countries, membership of the communist youth was more a privilege than a legal obligation.

So, you're comparing all racist organizations to Adolf Hitler? Nice.

Almost all marxists are anti-racist.


And who praises indoctrination? saying "teh j0oz media" or some other politically equivalent catch-all boogeyman doesn't satisfy the question.

I don't understand anything you just wrote in the above quote.


Since you've made no research into it, you don't know if that's BS or not. for all we know, many people who get threatened/punished with disownment or physical violence for having a black boyfriend or a multiracial plethora of friends would probably consider their parent's actions "indoctrination".

I take it you did research?

[Thomas_Sankara]

You don't need to. Though, anti-racists slogan seems to be 'equality,' so one could say you're being extraordinarily hypocritical and only being fair-minded when it suits you.

Both the Muslims and the Christians have the goal of "bringing people to see the true path". does that mean they have a natural alliance?



Can I just point out that Marx, Lenin and Stalin were also insane?

In fairness, Stalin is a bit debatable, especially after World War II, but can you tell me how Marx or Lenin did anything that could quantify them as "insane"?


Well, if media organizations, such as the ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) have anti-racism scribbled into their actual charters, I would say it's basically an anti-racist organization.

That's ridiculous. That's more of a by-law than an actual pursuited goal. the GOP in America has in it's by-laws it's definition on marriage, so by your reasoning, the GOP is a marital think-tank.

Many media organizations are like this and basically disallow anything remotely racist and are told to promote diversity by their bosses.

That just means they don't promote racism. that doesn't make one an actively anti-racist organization, like say, antifascist action or AKM.


Almost all marxists are anti-racist.

by definition, technically, but de facto, not really. The Khmer Rouge based a huge amount of their ideology on ethnic hatred of the Vietnamese.


I don't understand anything you just wrote in the above quote.

the usual far-right modus operandi is to blame everything on the mythical jew who lives in the shadows, under the bed, and in every politician's closet around the world, all for the seemingly pointless and unstated goal of "conquering" the white race (even though if Jews were out to do that, they'd benefit more from controlling asians since asian countries seem to have their economic affairs in better order). tl;dr: I was saying "don't just use the jews as an excuse".



I take it you did research?

you're saying "no u" to avoid having to answer what I asked.

[Starr]

I don't know exactly see how anti-racists "indoctrinate", seeing as there is no vanguard of anti-racists, but rather many loose coalitions that don't organize beyond saying slogans and handing out pamphlets. Marxists, yes, they do have youth groups and etcetera, but unlike the Hitler youth, in many countries, membership of the communist youth was more a privilege than a legal obligation.

".


One example among so many:

Our Teaching Tolerance program is working to foster school environments that are inclusive and nurturing – classrooms where equality and justice are not just taught, but lived. The program points to the future, helping teachers prepare a new generation to live in a diverse world.

As one of the nation’s leading providers of anti-bias education resources, we reach hundreds of thousands of educators and millions of students annually through our award-winning Teaching Tolerance magazine, multimedia teaching kits, online curricula, professional development resources like our Teaching Diverse Students Initiative and special projects like Mix It Up at Lunch Day. These materials are provided to educators at no cost.

Teaching Tolerance has produced award-winning documentary films about the civil rights movement and the struggle for social justice, bringing history to life on the screen and teaching students that they can make a difference in the world around them. Two of these films – Mighty Times: The Children’s March and A Time for Justice – have won Academy Awards in the short documentary category.

http://www.splcenter.org/what-we-do/teaching-tolerance

[Julian Curtis Lee]

The commies have long planned to pit children against their parents and that's come a long way for them. They've done it largely by promulgating bizarre propaganda to the kids via media, and even more by conning parents into letting the state have their kids from 7 am to 3 pm every day. In the end kids want to have a positive racial identity, and if the parents just love their kids every way they can, that healthy normalcy will get established.

[Transcendentally Challenged]

Being a psychotic idiot, who takes children out of the pool because blacks are present, hardly seems like any sort of decent upbringing.

There is one thing about instilling the healthy racialist instinct, and another thing about turning into an obsessed idiot about the possibility of children 'communicating' with blacks in any way.

[Bronze Age Pervert]

Being a psychotic idiot, who takes children out of the pool because blacks are present, hardly seems like any sort of decent upbringing.

There is one thing about instilling the healthy racialist instinct, and another thing about turning into an obsessed idiot about the possibility of children 'communicating' with blacks in any way.

Would your parents let you swim with a pack of gypsies in a public pool?

[Bismarck]

Women are always looking for something to cry about, i think it's because extreme emotions caricacture life and provide a sense of dramatic adventure, without fighting anyone or going anywhere.

[Fiona]

This cause is one that's been on the back foot for more than half a century. Fighting the uphill battle is emotionally draining because we only ever lose ground.

It's important for racialists to care for their mental health because we are under so much strain. I find making racial slurs like the average joe six pack does is a good way to blow off steam.

Having said that, getting kids to rebel against their parents is like shooting fish in a barrel. My parents have liberal beliefs so I'm rebelling against them with my nazi sympathy. It a story old as animal existance.

[Nemesis]

My parents have liberal beliefs so I'm rebelling against them with my nazi sympathy. It a story old as animal existance.

Is that Minnie Driver?...

The difference is that most people do it without realizing it, making your appoach really weird. Usually it's when most people realize that fact that they take a step back and reevaluate their views and in an effort to not be such a predictable reactionary, try to at least find some middle ground.

Nazism's fun...until you put them in power. Then you can't fill your lungs without someone's say so and sooner or later you're looking East for lebensraum and in the end picking your 10 year old sisters raped corpse out of the burning rubble that was once your home.

There are consequences to fanaticism.

[Fiona]

Is that Minnie Driver?...

The difference is that most people do it without realizing it, making your appoach really weird. Usually it's when most people realize that fact that they take a step back and reevaluate their views and in an effort to not be such a predictable reactionary, try to at least find some middle ground.

Nazism's fun...until you put them in power. Then you can't fill your lungs without someone's say so and sooner or later you're looking East for lebensraum and in the end picking your 10 year old sisters raped corpse out of the burning rubble that was once your home.

There are consequences to fanaticism.

no. that's what communists and neo-cons do to me.

[Nemesis]

So you let those you despise shape the kind of person you are?

I'm not a fan of any form of Totalitarianism, but obviously Nazism hits a soft spot for any racist...if you became a Nazi because you truly believed in it's core values, it's methods, it's agenda and all of that good stuff then I'd respect you for it. But for that line of reasoning, I can't. That's pathetic. You let shitheads troll you to the brink of insanity, pushing you into an anti-social subculture that's demonized to death. Any future ambitions you may have could be haunted by this type of a past, and any great points you might make will be simply dismissed as the ramblings of a mad woman. It's a waste and it's for the wrong reasons.

[Fiona]

I don't understand what you are saying

[Nemesis]

I don't think I could make any simpler.

Never mind. Have fun with that. :hitler:

[Fiona]

I don't think I could make any simpler.

Never mind. Have fun with that. :hitler:


you've just made assumptions about what i think and inserted them instead of real debate

[Fiona]

So you let those you despise shape the kind of person you are?

I'm not a fan of any form of Totalitarianism, but obviously Nazism hits a soft spot for any racist...if you became a Nazi because you truly believed in it's core values, it's methods, it's agenda and all of that good stuff then I'd respect you for it. But for that line of reasoning, I can't. That's pathetic. You let shitheads troll you to the brink of insanity, pushing you into an anti-social subculture that's demonized to death. Any future ambitions you may have could be haunted by this type of a past, and any great points you might make will be simply dismissed as the ramblings of a mad woman. It's a waste and it's for the wrong reasons.


you've added this since i replied

my response. you are rambling.

Death to the bankers!

[Donau Schwaben]

if you became a Nazi because you truly believed in it's core values, it's methods, it's agenda and all of that good stuff then I'd respect you for it.

Nemesis has won the argument .

[Donau Schwaben]

you've just made assumptions about what i think and inserted them instead of real debate

hobby nutzi ?

[Donau Schwaben]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Nemesis again.

[Fiona]

Nemisis went on a rant, not pertaining to the argument. It seemed to be based instead on my avatar.

Now I've roundly kicked both your asses.

[Donau Schwaben]

Nemisis went on a rant, not pertaining to the argument. It seemed to be based instead on my avatar.

Now I've roundly kicked both your asses.

Work sets you free.My daddy had a right facing eagle and my uncle had a left facing eagle.You are a fake.Now I kicked your ass feeyona!

[Fiona]

Work sets you free.My daddy had a right facing eagle and my uncle had a left facing eagle.You are a fake.Now I kicked your ass feeyona!

perhaps if you read my original post you might notice that you have not kicked my ass in the slightest. My avatar has nothing to do with this discussion. your obsession with it is what's making you more my bitch with each post you make.

[Donau Schwaben]

perhaps if you read my original post

"I'm rebelling against them with my nazi sympathy."

You nazi rebel you.

[Fiona]

http://abagond.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/ad-hominem.jpg?w=500&h=384