Will Ireland become an anti-Catholic tyranny?

[Niccolo and Donkey]

Will Ireland become an anti-Catholic tyranny? (http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/8337/)

Spiked Online

Rob Lyons

March 23, 2010


Last weekend, Pope Benedict XVI issued a pastoral letter to the Catholics of Ireland. He was responding to revelations about decades of child abuse and the apparent cover-up of the actions of one particularly notorious priest, Father Brendan Smyth, by senior figures in the church, including the current head of the Catholic Church in Ireland, Cardinal Sean Brady. Yet while the behaviour of the church has been disgraceful, the constant demands to expose every wrongdoing by every institution in society has become a serious problem, too.

The recent revelations relate to the way the church handled allegations against Smyth made in the 1970s. Brady was a priest and a teacher in a diocese where two children alleged that they had been abused by Smyth. Brady was asked to interview the children, who were made to swear an oath of secrecy, by Bishop Francis McKiernan. While Smyth was removed from ‘pastoral duties’, his actions were not reported to the civil authorities and his crimes remained secret until 1991, when he was jailed for seven years. While recently admitting that he had been involved with the handling of the case, Brady has argued that he was not the designated person with the authority to inform the police. Given that Brady would have been well aware both of the seriousness of the allegations and of the fact that Smyth had been dealt with rather leniently, this looks like an abdication of responsibility.

The role of the Catholic Church in Irish life until recent years was as an overweening force for reaction, sustaining a backward, clerical state long after its European neighbours had thrown off the shackles of the clergy. Moreover, a long line of revelations about child abuse has demonstrated that the church has been more concerned with its standing in society than with dealing properly with child molesters in its ranks.

Yet the calls for Brady to resign are troubling, too. What underpins them is a desire to tear the church down, to break it as a force in society and gain revenge for the years when it stifled Irish society. The effect has been to diminish the church’s influence, but this hardly represents a triumph for the supporters of secularism. Instead, these recent developments help to undermine the idea that there can be any kind of independent authority in the country. More broadly, there is a mood - by no means exclusive to Ireland - in which any attempt to do things in private, in a way that is not accountable to the public and which does not bow to the authority of the state, is deemed to be unacceptable. Every tiny detail must come out, to a pornographic degree, because the public has The Right To Know.

Never mind the effect this has on the parties involved. Never mind that it is not really the public that is making these demands, but a hodge-podge of media commentators, campaigners and politicos. Never mind that it is the state, not the public, that benefits. The casualties in this war on secrecy are not just the old bastions of reaction, but everyone else’s right to privacy from the authorities, too.

There is a place for dealing with offences outside of the orbit of the state. The church, for example, has always had a desire to deal with things in-house. Given the complete control it has over the lives of its clergy, it’s easy enough to make the lives of priests a misery if they step out of line or become an embarrassment. This is nicely illustrated by the setting for the TV comedy Father Ted: three priests - the eponymous crook Ted, the child-like idiot Dougal and the brain-pickled alcoholic Jack - are posted to the remote and barren parish of Craggy Island. For Ted, this is punishment. For the others, it is a desperate attempt to get them as far away from civilised society as possible. The show makes perfect sense, though, because that is what the church has always done with its priests.

Smyth’s crimes warranted rather more in the way of punishment than a miserable spell on some real-life Craggy Island; he fully deserved to be defrocked and imprisoned for his crimes. But when the wrongdoing is relatively minor, there is surely a place for dealing with offences quietly and privately, and this doesn’t just apply to the church. Schools, too, should be able to punish pupils without calling in the police every five minutes or filling in a 50-page report. Members of parliament should be able to deal with their own errant colleagues, not be forced to kow-tow to Scotland Yard in contradiction to hundreds of years of tradition about the sovereignty of parliament. Even family life, a last bastion of privacy, faces endless demands to be exposed to public scrutiny on the basis that ‘we’ must know the depths of depravity being plumbed behind closed doors.

In order for society to function, there must be a private sphere in which our thoughts and actions are not automatically accountable to the outside world. There must also be a range of institutions in society that can act as alternative pockets of power and influence to hold the state to account (admittedly, not something the Catholic Church’s decades-long domination of public life in Ireland ever contributed to positively). Our current circumstances, where the state is everything and can demand that we all account to it, is a heavy cross to bear.

[curtalus]

Yet while the behaviour of the church has been disgraceful, the constant demands to expose every wrongdoing by every institution in society has become a serious problem, too.
The actions of the Church are criminal as they hide felons from justice; and anyone that condemns anyone for molesting children does right. That this jack off tries to spin having a soul a a problem is itself indicative of the problem within the Church: They still have not accepted that they are NO longer a law unto themselves, and that other standards rule the roast.
the calls for Brady to resign are troubling, too. What underpins them is a desire to tear the church down, to break it as a force in society and gain revenge for the years when it stifled Irish society.Lets get real,the calls for him to resign are based on the fact that he enabled kiddie touchers and is in fact a criminal himself thereby.
Instead, these recent developments help to undermine the idea that there can be any kind of independent authority in the country. More broadly, there is a mood - by no means exclusive to Ireland - in which any attempt to do things in private, in a way that is not accountable to the public and which does not bow to the authority of the state, is deemed to be unacceptable. Every tiny detail must come out, to a pornographic degree, because the public has The Right To Know.Isn't this the same organization that killed people because of inner convictions? They are so two-faced it is sad. This is from centuries of credulous peasants simply believing like ignorant children the lies of Mother Church; however, that time is over.
The casualties in this war on secrecy are not just the old bastions of reaction, but everyone else’s right to privacy from the authorities, too.This man is arguing that wanting to find out child molesters from among the Catholic hierarchy, were there are quite a few power-mad individuals of all sorts no doubt, is tantamount to invasion of privacy on a large scale. This too coming from the apologist for an organization that still have an office that engages in official censorship and that purports to have the power to control what others read, say and think. Too much belief in your own silly dogmas will cause this sort of irrational pleading.
The church, for example, has always had a desire to deal with things in-house. Given the complete control it has over the lives of its clergy, it’s easy enough to make the lives of priests a misery if they step out of line or become an embarrassment.And this is just too bad as your likes have nothing to do with the law. And miserable lives are not secular punishment: period!
But when the wrongdoing is relatively minor, there is surely a place for dealing with offences quietly and privately, and this doesn’t just apply to the church. Schools, too, should be able to punish pupils without calling in the police every five minutes or filling in a 50-page report. Members of parliament should be able to deal with their own errant colleagues, not be forced to kow-tow to Scotland Yard in contradiction to hundreds of years of tradition about the sovereignty of parliament. Even family life, a last bastion of privacy, faces endless demands to be exposed to public scrutiny on the basis that ‘we’ must know the depths of depravity being plumbed behind closed doors.Ans so here it is: This person believes that there are relatively minor molestations that occur between priest and children; that punishing errant school pupils is morally and legally equivalent to punishing priests that touch children; that elected members of Parliament --who are a law making body--having the power to impeach each other means that the Church should have control of its own child molestation litigation; and. that finally somehow it is the same to demand that the church give up deviants to the state, as it is for the state to be destroying and invading the nuclear family.

The Church protecting its molesters is really just an attempt to protect everyone's privacy and freedom you see. This guy is a nut job.

[Basil Fawlty]

There is no doubt that the Church was highly complascent in the way it handled these shocking incidents at the time. This was in no small part due to larger factors beyond just internal Church discipline and administration.

But the people who are leading this concerted attack on the Church are not in the least bit concerned with the victims of abuse, nor with the question of justice. They are motivated by one single aim: to neutralise the Church as a moral authority and as an influential social institution. The left-liberal faction who comprise the Dublin middle class (a small minority in the country), who dominate the national media here, who take their lead from abroad in all things, and despise all things authentically Irish or Catholic (they also despise the more "backward" Protestant churches, especially the Presbyterians), want to occupy the position fomerly held by the Church. These cultural subversives, whom Desmond Fennell calls the Correctorate, want to enthrone themselves as our moral guardians and preach the gospel of "liberal progressivism" which includes the mandatory raft of measures like "gay marriage", baby killing, abandonment of sovreignty, the cult of the ego, mindless consumerism, importing hordes of foreigners who must be adored, and so on.

[Petr]

The left-liberal faction who comprise the Dublin middle class (a small minority in the country), who dominate the national media here, who take their lead from abroad in all things, and despise all things authentically Irish or Catholic (they also despise the more "backward" Protestant churches, especially the Presbyterians), want to occupy the position fomerly held by the Church. These cultural subversives, whom Desmond Fennell calls the Correctorate, want to enthrone themselves as our moral guardians and preach the gospel of "liberal progressivism" which includes the mandatory raft of measures like "gay marriage", baby killing, abandonment of sovreignty, the cult of the ego, mindless consumerism, importing hordes of foreigners who must be adored, and so on.
Thus modern democracy is actually a cover for an oligarchy run by liberal elitists.


Petr

[curtalus]

There is no doubt that the Church was highly complascent in the way it handled these shocking incidents at the time. This was in no small part due to larger factors beyond just internal Church discipline and administration.What factors are these, Basil?

But the people who are leading this concerted attack on the Church are not in the least bit concerned with the victims of abuse, nor with the question of justice. They are motivated by one single aim: to neutralise the Church as a moral authority and as an influential social institution.Truly however this does not lessen the burden for those in the Church that have done what they have done. If a person where to seek to bring justice for any offense, what matters their personal motivations just so that the guilty are brought to judgment? This being said I agree, that these people have other motivations than justice, but you will find that the Will of the Lord finds a way to use just such as these. Put differently: Do you find it objectionable that these people are the instrument of justice? If, yes then it would behoove you to push the Church to do these things itself openly, and not play backroom games about such serious matters.

The left-liberal faction who comprise the Dublin middle class (a small minority in the country), who dominate the national media here, who take their lead from abroad in all things, and despise all things authentically Irish or Catholic (they also despise the more "backward" Protestant churches, especially the Presbyterians), want to occupy the position fomerly held by the Church. These cultural subversives, whom Desmond Fennell calls the Correctorate, want to enthrone themselves as our moral guardians and preach the gospel of "liberal progressivism" which includes the mandatory raft of measures like "gay marriage", baby killing, abandonment of sovereignty, the cult of the ego, mindless consumerism, importing hordes of foreigners who must be adored, and so on.I am sure that all of this is true,but does any of this negate the fact that grown men were touching children and that the Vatican and its creatures covered that fact not only from the faithful--to whom they owe in my mind an obligation--but also the the law? Surely you agree that even if Jacobins are in power, that molesting children remains wrong?

The motivations behind the attack are not so important in a case like this as the factual basis backing up the allegations. Did it happen or not, is more important in the scheme of things, than what is the accuser wishing in his heart to gain. Not that I do not take that into account, just that it is less important than the veracity of the accusation.

[Basil Fawlty]

What factors are these, Basil?Firstly, the times change and priorities and attitudes with it. For example, the contemporary horror at molestation and its status as principal evil. Up to the late 70's child porn was being openly produced in Denmark and sold internationally. This would be unthinkable now. Even though it was not apporved of socially, it was not deemed to be the deepest depths of evil.
Secondly, the status of the Churches in society at the time. They commanded great respect and were acknowledged as moral authorities. The general public would find such activties unthinkable or else didn't want to think about such things.
Thirdly, the position of the Church in Irish society in relation to society at large. Most policemen, lawyers, politicians who were appraised of these incidents at the time knew that little but damage to themsleves could come of pursuing it. When they tried they were ignored, disbelieved or fobbed off with a "we'll take care of that" by the higher ups.
Fourthly, the testimony of a child against an adult was not considered.
Fifthly, most of the children involved were in care of some kind or came from the poorest and most powerless sectors of society. No one listened to them - children or adults - about anything.
Truly however this does not lessen the burden for those in the Church that have done what they have done. If a person where to seek to bring justice for any offense, what matters their personal motivations just so that the guilty are brought to judgment? The only people who can and do seek justice are the victims of abuse.
This being said I agree, that these people have other motivations than justice, but you will find that the Will of the Lord finds a way to use just such as these. Put differently: Do you find it objectionable that these people are the instrument of justice?I do not accept that the liberal media are instruments of justice. They are self-serving parasites, cynically using these people's plight to advance their own vile agenda.
If, yes then it would behoove you to push the Church to do these things itself openly, and not play backroom games about such serious matters. The current Archbishop of Dublin has been very good in this regard. One couldn't really ask him to be more cooperative and concerned than he is. Alas this was not the case with the previous few incumbents.
The instruments of justice in these cases are the victims themsleves, those police who have done a good job, those churchmen who have cooperated and the courts.
I am sure that all of this is true,but does any of this negate the fact that grown men were touching children and that the Vatican and its creatures covered that fact not only from the faithful--to whom they owe in my mind an obligation--but also the the law? Surely you agree that even if Jacobins are in power, that molesting children remains wrong? Of course, but we never hear about the real extent of child sex abuse, which happens in homes. Clerical abusers are a small minority amongst the perpetrator groups.
The motivations behind the attack are not so important in a case like this as the factual basis backing up the allegations. Did it happen or not, is more important in the scheme of things, than what is the accuser wishing in his heart to gain. Not that I do not take that into account, just that it is less important than the veracity of the accusation.The accusers are the victims. I'm talking only of the parasites who use all this for their own ends.

[Jake Featherston]

the people who are leading this concerted attack on the Church are not in the least bit concerned with the victims of abuse, nor with the question of justice. They are motivated by one single aim: to neutralise the Church as a moral authority and as an influential social institution. The left-liberal faction who comprise the Dublin middle class (a small minority in the country), who dominate the national media here, who take their lead from abroad in all things, and despise all things authentically Irish or Catholic (they also despise the more "backward" Protestant churches, especially the Presbyterians), want to occupy the position fomerly held by the Church. These cultural subversives, whom Desmond Fennell calls the Correctorate, want to enthrone themselves as our moral guardians and preach the gospel of "liberal progressivism" which includes the mandatory raft of measures like "gay marriage", baby killing, abandonment of sovreignty, the cult of the ego, mindless consumerism, importing hordes of foreigners who must be adored, and so on.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Basil Fawlty again."

[shanemac]

There is no doubt that the Church was highly complascent in the way it handled these shocking incidents at the time. This was in no small part due to larger factors beyond just internal Church discipline and administration.

But the people who are leading this concerted attack on the Church are not in the least bit concerned with the victims of abuse, nor with the question of justice. They are motivated by one single aim: to neutralise the Church as a moral authority and as an influential social institution. The left-liberal faction who comprise the Dublin middle class (a small minority in the country), who dominate the national media here, who take their lead from abroad in all things, and despise all things authentically Irish or Catholic (they also despise the more "backward" Protestant churches, especially the Presbyterians), want to occupy the position fomerly held by the Church. These cultural subversives, whom Desmond Fennell calls the Correctorate, want to enthrone themselves as our moral guardians and preach the gospel of "liberal progressivism" which includes the mandatory raft of measures like "gay marriage", baby killing, abandonment of sovreignty, the cult of the ego, mindless consumerism, importing hordes of foreigners who must be adored, and so on.

Good post.

Zealots of all types have a tendency to take things to the extreme, and therefore throw out babies with bathwater. Social "progress" was held back in Ireland because of the catholic church. If you ask me, that's mainly a good thing... but of course is the opposite of what "progressives" want.