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Petr
04-06-2010, 07:15 PM
http://creationsafaris.com/crev201004.htm#20100405a

Human Genome “Infinitely More Complex” Than Expected

04/05/2010

April 05, 2010 — Ten years after the Human Genome Project was completed, now we know: biology is “orders of magnitude” more complicated than scientists expected. So wrote Erika Check Hayden in Nature News (http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100331/full/464664a.html) March 31 and in the April 1 issue of Nature.1

An air of daunting complexity haunts the article. The Human Genome Project was one of the great scientific investigations of the end of the 20th century. Some compared it to the Manhattan Project or the Apollo program. It used to be tedious, painstaking work to read the sequence of DNA letters. Now, deciphering genomes is a matter of course. But with the rush of data coming from genomes of everything from yeast to Neanderthals, one thing has become clear: “as sequencing and other new technologies spew forth data, the complexity of biology has seemed to grow by orders of magnitude,” Hayden wrote.

A few things were surprisingly simple. Geneticists expected to find 100,000 genes in the human genome; the count is more like 21,000. But with them came a huge surprise in the accessory molecules – transcription factors, small RNAs, regulators – all arranged in dynamic interacting networks that boggle the mind. Hayden compared them to the Mandelbrot set in fractal geometry that unveils deeper levels of complexity the closer you look.

“When we started out, the idea was that signalling pathways were fairly simple and linear,” says Tony Pawson, a cell biologist at the University of Toronto in Ontario. “Now, we appreciate that the signalling information in cells is organized through networks of information rather than simple discrete pathways. It’s infinitely more complex.”
Hayden acknowledged that the “junk DNA” paradigm has been blown to smithereens. “Just one decade of post-genome biology has exploded that view,” she said, speaking of the notion that gene regulation was a straightforward, linear process – genes coding for regulator proteins that control transcription. “Biology’s new glimpse at a universe of non-coding DNA – what used to be called ‘junk’ DNA – has been fascinating and befuddling.” If it’s junk, why would the human body decode 74% to 93% of it? The plethora of small RNAs produced by these non-coding regions, and how they interact with each other and with DNA, was completely unexpected when the project began.

These realizations are dissipating some of the early naivete of the Human Genome Project. Planners predicted we would “unravel the mysteries behind everything from evolution to disease origins.” Cures for cancer were envisioned. We would trace the path of evolution through the genetic code. That was so 1990s. Joshua Plotkin, a mathematical biologist at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, said, “Just the sheer existence of these exotic regulators suggests that our understanding about the most basic things – such as how a cell turns on and off – is incredibly naive.” Leonid Kruglyak, a geneticist at Princeton University in New Jersey, commented on the premature feeling that the data would speak for itself: “There is a certain amount of naivety to the idea that for any process – be it biology or weather prediction or anything else – you can simply take very large amounts of data and run a data-mining program and understand what is going on in a generic way.”

Some are still looking for simple patterns in the complexity. Top-down approaches try to build models where the data points fall into place:

A new discipline – systems biology – was supposed to help scientists make sense of the complexity. The hope was that by cataloguing all the interactions in the p53 network, or in a cell, or between a group of cells, then plugging them into a computational model, biologists would glean insights about how biological systems behaved.

In the heady post-genome years, systems biologists started a long list of projects built on this strategy, attempting to model pieces of biology such as the yeast cell, E. coli, the liver and even the ‘virtual human’. So far, all these attempts have run up against the same roadblock: there is no way to gather all the relevant data about each interaction included in the model.
The p53 network she spoke of is a good example of unexpected complexity. Discovered in 1979, the p53 protein was first thought to be a cancer promoter, then a cancer suppressor. “Few proteins have been studied more than p53,” she said. “...Yet the p53 story has turned out to be immensely more complex than it seemed at first.” She gave some details:

Researchers now know that p53 binds to thousands of sites in DNA, and some of these sites are thousands of base pairs away from any genes. It influences cell growth, death and structure and DNA repair. It also binds to numerous other proteins, which can modify its activity, and these protein–protein interactions can be tuned by the addition of chemical modifiers, such as phosphates and methyl groups. Through a process known as alternative splicing, p53 can take nine different forms, each of which has its own activities and chemical modifiers. Biologists are now realizing that p53 is also involved in processes beyond cancer, such as fertility and very early embryonic development. In fact, it seems wilfully ignorant to try to understand p53 on its own. Instead, biologists have shifted to studying the p53 network, as depicted in cartoons containing boxes, circles and arrows meant to symbolize its maze of interactions.
Network theory is now a new paradigm that has replaced the one-way linear diagram of gene to RNA to protein. That used to be called the “Central Dogma” of genetics. Now, everything is seen to be dynamic, with promoters and blockers and interactomes, feedback loops, feed-forward processes, and “bafflingly complex signal-transduction pathways.” “The p53 story is just one example of how biologists’ understanding has been reshaped, thanks to genomic-era technologies,” Hayden said. “....That has expanded the universe of known protein interactions – and has dismantled old ideas about signalling ‘pathways’, in which proteins such as p53 would trigger a defined set of downstream consequences.”

Biologists made a common mistake of assuming that more data would bring more understanding. Some continue to work from the bottom up, believing that there is an underlying simplicity that will come to light eventually. “It’s people who complicate things,” remarked one Berkeley researcher. But one scientist who predicted the yeast genome and its interactions would be solved by 2007 has had to put off his target date for a few decades. It’s clear that our understanding remains very rudimentary. Hayden said in conclusion, “the beautiful patterns of biology’s Mandelbrot-like intricacy show few signs of resolving.”

There’s a bright side to the unfolding complexity. Mina Bissell, a cancer researcher at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in California, confesses she was was “driven to despair by predictions that all the mysteries would be solved” by the Human Genome Project. “Famous people would get up and say, ‘We will understand everything after this’,” Hayden quoted her saying. But it turned out for good, in a way: “Biology is complex, and that is part of its beauty.”

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1. Erika Check Hayden, “Human genome at ten: Life is complicated,” Nature (http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100331/full/464664a.html) 464, 664-667 (April 1, 2010) |



Who predicted the complexity: the Darwinians or the intelligent design proponents? You already know the answer. The Darwinians have been wrong on this matter time and time again. The origin of life would be simple (the Warm Little Pond of Darwin’s dreams). Protoplasm would be simple. Proteins would be simple. Genetics would be simple (remember Darwin’s pangenes?). The carrier of genetic information would be simple. DNA transcription would be simple (the Central Dogma). The origin of the genetic code would be simple (the RNA World, or Crick’s “frozen accident.”). Comparative genomics would be simple, and we would be able to trace the evolution of life in the genes. Life would be littered with the trash of mutations and natural selection (vestigial organs, junk DNA). Simple, simple, simple.

Simple-minded.

Julian Curtis Lee
04-06-2010, 08:21 PM
I always knew this would be the way it would turn out.

Looking deeply into the material world, whether the micro or the macro (Hubbell's outer phantasms in space, for example) --
one will always encounter the infinitude of God; the realm of all possibilities, only.
In fact, in nature one can only encounter the spacious of mind; the spaciousness of the Pure Consciousness (God.)
The deeper you look, the more that comes true.

I am pleased to finally see this report. In ways that will later unfold, it bodes hugely well for White people.

Brechun
04-06-2010, 08:25 PM
It never ends when you hear about how astoundingly complex and slow the pace of genetic research really is. One day you hear how close we are to homing in one the genetic dynamics of every trait imaginable, then another day, we're still really far off.

All of this reminds me of how central the issue of genetics is to the NN debate. Much of it's pure hysteria primarily based on the blank slate obsession of many racialists, with decades old behavior genetics studies and other studies of population genetics painting a picture that's astoundingly unlikely to be changed much by genetic sequencing technology.

Think back to the Geoffrey Miller's pointless Economist article, "The Looming Crisis in Human Genetics" from a few months back. And look what we just turned up.

Julian Curtis Lee
04-06-2010, 08:28 PM
"However the mind conceives "the Order" to be (niyati), the Order becomes."
-- Yoga Vasistha

"According to your faith be it unto you"
-- Jesus Christ, Matthew 9:29

I am delighted with this news, and will be delighted with the continuing consternation of world-worshippers and science-worshippers. (Who never comprehend they are just encountering their own minds in the material world, as an adjunct of God's mind, nothing more.)

New Dawner
04-06-2010, 08:30 PM
I always knew this would be the way it would turn out.

Looking deeply into the material world, whether the micro or the macro (the outer cosmo) --
one will always encounter the infinitude of God; the realm of all possibilities, only.
In fact, one can only encounter the spacious of mind; the spaciousness of the Pure Consciousness (God.)

I am pleased to finally see this report. In ways that will later unfold, it bodes hugely well for White people.

Agreed on all counts.

New Dawner
04-06-2010, 08:39 PM
“Biology’s new glimpse at a universe of non-coding DNA – what used to be called ‘junk’ DNA – has been fascinating and befuddling.” If it’s junk, why would the human body decode 74% to 93% of it? The plethora of small RNAs produced by these non-coding regions, and how they interact with each other and with DNA, was completely unexpected when the project began.

Typical arrogance, in how they dismissed it as junk. Because they could not understand it. That accounts for the majority of those atheist scientists, at any rate. And then comes the others, the insiders - those who knew all along it was not "junk" but for their own dark agendas agreed, and indeed aided their patsy colleagues along to such conclusions.

Julian Curtis Lee
04-06-2010, 09:07 PM
Some Jew-created paradigms about race and White people, now hanging off the necks of Whites like some fancy slave-keeping necklace, are about to be exploded.

Brechun
04-06-2010, 09:12 PM
Some Jew-created paradigms about race and White people, now hanging off the necks of Whites like some fancy slave-keeping necklace, are about to be exploded.

What do you mean?

Monty
04-06-2010, 09:25 PM
Regardless of the fact of irreducible complexity, the naturalist will not budge:

Some future day may yet arrive when all reasonable chemical experiments run to discover a probable origin for life have failed unequivocally. Further, new geological evidence may indicate a sudden appearance of life on the earth. Finally, we may have explored the universe and found no trace of life, or processes leading to life, elsewhere. In such a case, some scientists might choose to turn to religion for an answer. Others, myself included, would attempt to sort out the surviving less probable scientific explanations in the hope of selecting one that was still more likely than the remainder

This is a candid admission and shows just how relentless the pursuit of naturalism is among scientists. The terms of the scientific debate between creationists and evolutionists have been defined in naturalistic categories, which necessarily controls the outcome.
http://www.meetthepuritans.com/2010/04/05/bruce-waltke-and-evolution/#more-739

KerguelenExileDissident
05-15-2010, 06:54 AM
This is a slap in the face to those who thinks science has all the answers and we know all we need to know to fix health problems.

New Dawner
05-15-2010, 09:08 AM
I, too, support the defrosting of this thread!

Opus131
05-15-2010, 01:52 PM
Modern scientists are a sham. There isn't one single genius among the lot of them. No wonder we haven't made any real concrete scientific discovery since the goddamn 50s. God, its amazing just how far a civilization can fall.

Angler
05-15-2010, 02:06 PM
Genetics is much more complex than was expected; therefore, evolution is wrong, and ID is correct. That appears to be the essential argument here. :tard:

Well, then...perhaps someone can explain why the "intelligent designer" put DNA that codes for a clawed hand into a snake's genome, waiting to be activated by mere chance mutations like a biological time-bomb:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/img/2009/world/1609_snake_sp.jpg

http://www.thephora.net/forum/showpost.php?p=775781&postcount=10

This is only one example of such things happening, but it's one of the best ones I've seen.

Evolution is a fact, people. Get over it.

Impérialiste
05-15-2010, 05:31 PM
This is a slap in the face to those who thinks science has all the answers and we know all we need to know to fix health problems.

Except scientific experimentation determined over time that junk DNA is not junk. In other words, intelligent design types contributed nothing to the debate but mooched off of what scientists had discovered. The scientist continually reasons by induction. The Christian jumps in and says, "They don't have all the answers!" But one can't conclude intelligent design is a fact from this.

This is all too predictable. 50 years from now when geneticists decipher the significance of junk DNA and have another issue that must be resolved, Petr will paste an argument on that unresolved issue and give yet another logical fallacy: "They don't have all the answers, therefore God exists."

Hilarious.

Petr
05-15-2010, 06:32 PM
Except scientific experimentation determined over time that junk DNA is not junk. In other words, intelligent design types contributed nothing to the debate but mooched off of what scientists had discovered.
It is the Darwinists and other various materialist ideologues who are shamelessly "mooching off" real science. Evolutionist theory did not help solving the junk DNA riddles, in fact it hindered solving it.

This is all too predictable. 50 years from now when geneticists decipher the significance of junk DNA and have another issue that must be resolved, Petr will paste an argument on that unresolved issue and give yet another logical fallacy: "They don't have all the answers, therefore God exists."
Stupid village-infidel babble, rehashing tired old slogans and strawmen.


Petr

Remote
05-15-2010, 07:19 PM
Evolution is a fact, people. Get over it.
The wisdom of the world is evil; one must believe things because they are absurd.

(That's what the Jew Book told me to do, anyway.)

Impérialiste
05-15-2010, 11:22 PM
It is the Darwinists and other various materialist ideologues who are shamelessly "mooching off" real science. Evolutionist theory did not help solving the junk DNA riddles, in fact it hindered solving it.


Stupid village-infidel babble, rehashing tired old slogans and strawmen.


Petr
So what's "real science"? Jesus turning water to wine? I wonder how that works.

Btw, I bumped into Christian Mathematics recently with Laplace Transformers.

(3s + 1) / (s^2 + 4) = (3s) / (s^2 + 4) + 1 / (s^2 + 4). A fact is s/(s^2 + 4) gives coskt, and k/(s^2 + 4) = sinkt. I'm confused. . .hmm 3(s/(s^2 + 4)) gives 3cos2t since k^2 = 4, and k = 2. There is 1 / (s^2 + 4). K must be 2; it has to be! I'll put a 2 there and divide it by (1/2) since (1/2) * 2 = 1. Ah, that fits what I want. Therefore, the answer is 3cos2t + (1/2)sin2t.

That is a great representation of theological thought. You clowns are representative of confirmation bias. However, this example of a confirmation bias is derived from a proof. Your confirmation bias is derived from a voted-on compiled list of books written predominantly by the ancestors of AIPAC members.

Angler
05-15-2010, 11:32 PM
Except scientific experimentation determined over time that junk DNA is not junk. In other words, intelligent design types contributed nothing to the debate but mooched off of what scientists had discovered. The scientist continually reasons by induction. The Christian jumps in and says, "They don't have all the answers!" But one can't conclude intelligent design is a fact from this.

This is all too predictable. 50 years from now when geneticists decipher the significance of junk DNA and have another issue that must be resolved, Petr will paste an argument on that unresolved issue and give yet another logical fallacy: "They don't have all the answers, therefore God exists."

Hilarious.Excellent post, Petr's obligatory ad hominem tantrum notwithstanding.

Unlike religious dogma, science is self-correcting. Scientists don't claim to have all the answers and are always willing to accept compelling new evidence in order to understand the world better. That's exactly what we saw in the OP.

New Dawner
05-16-2010, 01:02 AM
Genetics is much more complex than was expected; therefore, evolution is wrong, and ID is correct. That appears to be the essential argument here. :tard:

Well, then...perhaps someone can explain why the "intelligent designer" put DNA that codes for a clawed hand into a snake's genome, waiting to be activated by mere chance mutations like a biological time-bomb:


The code for that claw is a throw-back from it's evolutionary predecessors. It sits there latent but can occasionally become activated. The field of epigenetics is demonstrating how in humans even emotions can mutate our dna, switch some things on, other things off etc. Two twins at age 70 are no longer the same individual.

Perhaps Prahlad Jani (the yogi who apparently can go 15 days without water at the least, if not indefinitely) through his yogic practices switched back on the latent dna quite possibly lurking within us all (but not necessarily all), that harks back to a Golden Age for the species, when we were what could be described as super-human in comparison to our present state.

So this snake's reactivated dna appears to have been an accident, basically. But imagine the possibilities of beings imbued with consciousness such as ourselves purposefully activating it.

Angler
05-16-2010, 01:48 AM
The code for that claw is a throw-back from it's evolutionary predecessors. It sits there latent but can occasionally become activated.Yes, precisely.

The field of epigenetics is demonstrating how in humans even emotions can mutate our dna, switch some things on, other things off etc.While "mutate" might not be quite the proper term here, I agree with the essence of what you're saying.

Two twins at age 70 are no longer the same individual.That's true. For example:

http://www.pnas.org/content/102/30/10604.full

So this snake's reactivated dna appears to have been an accident, basically.Yep.

But imagine the possibilities of beings imbued with consciousness such as ourselves purposefully activating it.I definitely wouldn't rule that out. It may be that certain patterns of thought, indulged in for a very long time, can affect mental or even certain physical traits (e.g., certain hormone levels) via epigenetics. After all, various emotional states are tied to elevated or lowered levels of certain hormones (e.g., depression is associated with low serotonin, and stress is associated with high levels of cortisol), and prolonged changes in those hormone levels may have effects on the expression of certain parts of the genetic code. There may be other biochemical mechanisms at work, too.

Opus131
05-16-2010, 04:03 PM
Genetics is much more complex than was expected; therefore, evolution is wrong, and ID is correct. That appears to be the essential argument here. :tard:

Yes, this is a typical fallacy among religiotards. Science is wrong, therefore, religion is right. Flawless logic. :tard:

Stoic_Cynic
05-17-2010, 01:49 AM
Yes, this is a typical fallacy among religiotards. Science is wrong, therefore, religion is right. Flawless logic. :tard:This is a typical fallacy among evolvotards. Darwin is SCIENCE! therefore Religion is wrong. :rolleyes:

Monty
05-17-2010, 06:10 PM
(That's what the Jew Book told me to do, anyway.)

Most Jewish intellectuals are atheistic. They hate the Bible as much as you do, with about as much ignorance.