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Arcturus
07-26-2010, 06:26 AM
Skepdic.com, as many may know, is the handi-dandi-Randi resource for skeptics of the JREF and Michael Shermer sort. It usually does a fair job at refuting many of the popular supernaturalist, superstitious and new age vogues(not that these things really needed debunking anyway), and covers ID and creationism as well.

It is unfortunate, therefore, that they decided to throw in their 2 cents regarding race and group IQ variance. Their position, of course, is that it falls in the junk-science bin, in the same category as faith healing and urine therapy. It is unacceptable that an outfit that bills itself as an anti-hogwash, pro-science beacon of rationality would be privy to politics so. They should have simply sidestepped the issue altogether if they wanted to avoid taking a controversial stance on a politicized issue.

I could actually catalog all of the strawmen, emotional appeals and ad hominems therein, but that would serve no purpose here.


http://www.skepdic.com/iqrace.html

IQ and race

The three great strategies for obscuring an issue are to introduce irrelevancies, to arouse prejudice, and to excite ridicule....
---Bergen Evans, The Natural History of Nonsense


"IQ" stands for "intelligence quotient." A person's IQ is supposed to be a measure of that person's intelligence: the higher the IQ number, the greater the intelligence. This is inaccurate, however, since it assumes that there is only one kind of intelligence. Most people recognize that there are some people with fantastic memories, some with mathematical minds, some with musical genius, some with mechanical expertise, some with good vocabularies, some good at seeing analogies, some good at synthesizing, some at unifying, etc. Some people excel at more than one of these behaviors. It would be more accurate to speak of human intelligences than of intelligence.

Furthermore, the typical IQ test doesn't even measure rational decision-making ability.* (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=030012385X/roberttoddcarrolA/) An IQ test, therefore, should be considered a measure of some kinds of intelligence, but not all. The most accurate claim one can make about an IQ test is that it measures IQ.

Another accurate claim that can be made is that however IQ is measured it has been increasing with each generation over the past sixty years or so. James R. Flynn (http://www.otago.ac.nz/politicalstudies/jim_flynn.html) discovered this when he analyzed the data for all the countries that keep records of IQ scores. This trend is now called the Flynn effect. (http://www.indiana.edu/~intell/flynneffect.shtml) It could be due to more people with higher IQ breeding or taking the test, fewer people with lower IQ breeding or taking the test, the test getting easier, or social/cultural factors. The latter seems the most plausible. Flynn thinks that the hypothesis most in accord with the data regarding the relationship of IQ tests and intelligence is that "IQ tests do not measure intelligence but rather correlate with a weak causal link to intelligence."

The research on IQ and race by Arthur Jensen (http://www.indiana.edu/~intell/jensen.shtml), William Shockley (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/btshoc.html), Herrnstein and Murray (The Bell Curve (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0029146739/roberttoddcarrolA/)) and others have not found any significant correlations between race and intelligence. They have found correlations between race and IQ, which has been used to support the notion that some races are intellectually inferior to others. Not surprising is the fact that different researchers using different data get different results. Richard Lynn and James Flynn came to quite different conclusions regarding Asian IQ, for example.

Data showing that the Japanese had higher I.Q.s than people of European descent, for example, prompted the British psychometrician and eugenicist Richard Lynn to concoct an elaborate evolutionary explanation involving the Himalayas, really cold weather, premodern hunting practices, brain size, and specialized vowel sounds. The fact that the I.Q.s of Chinese-Americans also seemed to be elevated has led I.Q. fundamentalists to posit the existence of an international I.Q. pyramid, with Asians at the top, European whites next, and Hispanics and blacks at the bottom.

Here was a question tailor-made for James Flynn's accounting skills. He looked first at Lynn's data, and realized that the comparison was skewed. Lynn was comparing American I.Q. estimates based on a representative sample of schoolchildren with Japanese estimates based on an upper-income, heavily urban sample. Recalculated, the Japanese average came in not at 106.6 but at 99.2. Then Flynn turned his attention to the Chinese-American estimates. They turned out to be based on a 1975 study in San Francisco's Chinatown using something called the Lorge-Thorndike Intelligence Test. But the Lorge-Thorndike test was normed in the nineteen-fifties. For children in the nineteen-seventies, it would have been a piece of cake. When the Chinese-American scores were reassessed using up-to-date intelligence metrics, Flynn found, they came in at 97 verbal and 100 nonverbal. Chinese-Americans had slightly lower I.Q.s than white Americans. (Gladwell 2007 (http://www.gladwell.com/2007/2007_12_17_c_iq.html))

In his monograph on Asian Americans and IQ (http://www.questia.com/library/book/asian-americans-achievement-beyond-iq-by-james-r-flynn.jsp), Flynn claims that Chinese Americans' occupational achievements well exceed their IQ. He argues that the best explanation for this is environmental, and is due to such things as education, work ethic, and family values. Flynn also argues that the Asian-American dominance in math has been in spite of their IQ, not because of it (Gladwell 2008: 231n). In chapter eight of Outliers: the Story of Success (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0316017922/roberttoddcarrolA/), Malcolm Gladwell presents the case that the main cultural factors that explain Asian dominance in math are rooted in the history of rice growing and the way numbers are named, written, and conceived.

Few deny that there are several races or that there are obvious physical and cultural differences among different ethnic groups. Since the publication of Richard Lewontin's 1972 article "The Apportionment of Human Diversity" in Evolutionary Biology the view that race is a social construct has been accepted by most scientists. That view has been challenged by Armand Marie Leroi (http://raceandgenomics.ssrc.org/Leroi/), who argues that Lewontin's error was that

he looked at one gene at a time and failed to see races. But if many—a few hundred—variable genes are considered simultaneously, then it is very easy to do so. Indeed, a 2002 study by scientists at the University of Southern California and Stanford showed that if a sample of people from around the world are sorted by computer into five groups on the basis of genetic similarity, the groups that emerge are native to Europe, East Asia, Africa, America and Australasia—more or less the major races of traditional anthropology.Basically, Leroi's view is a return to the view that dominated before Lewontin's view took over. It had become a widespread belief that race is genetically determined in much the same way as, say, eye color. Having a certain gene or set of genes means you have blue eyes. Likewise, having a set of genes makes one Caucasian. It has always been accepted that a person's genetic makeup is a significant factor in individual intelligence in particular areas and in physical features associated with different races, such as skin color, breadth of nose, shape of eyes, etc. There is, of course, a tremendous variation in intelligence among individuals of any race. Clearly, environment plays a significant role in the development of intelligence. Over the long haul, environment determines which physical features evolve in the group. Whatever genetic differences exist among the races are due to mechanisms like natural selection and sexual selection. The notion of a "pure" race is an absurdity. Even if the Christian fundamentalists are right and there was an original Adam and Eve, no race can claim to be "pure." Each race evolved according to natural processes such as natural selection.

some race data

"There's about a 15 percent genetic variation between any two individuals," according to science writer Deborah Blum. "Less than half of that, about 6 percent, is accounted for by known racial groupings....A randomly selected white person, therefore, can easily be genetically closer to an African than another white" (Blum 1995). Others contest these figures, arguing that genetic clustering is less likely to be evident in studies that use a small number of genetic markers. The greater the number of markers used, the greater the genetic clustering (Tang et al.: 2005 (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1196372)).

Joseph Graves, an African-American evolutionary biologist at Arizona State University-West in Tempe, notes that most people and researchers who try to establish correlations between various natural abilities and skin color are not geneticists.

These people don't know evolutionary genetics. They talk about interesting issues in race and biology. And since, I think, there are no real races, I wonder what these issues are. It makes me angry that I have to take time from my research (on the genetics of aging) to argue about something that shouldn't even need to be discussed.
C. Loring Brace, an anthropologist at the University of Michigan, claims that "race is a four-letter word with no basis in biological reality" (Blum). Others claim that the assertion that race is biologically meaningless is politically motivated.

* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics#Defining_race) There is also the problem of different scientists defining 'race' in different ways (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0010014).

In any case, genetic clustering occurs due to geographical isolation over long periods of time, and continues through inheritance when individuals leave their native area and breed with others of similar background. Physical features such as skin color, shape of eyelid, color of eyes, texture of hair, etc., are genetically determined. (For example, about 90 to 95 percent of African Americans and 98 to 99 percent of Asians are Rh-positive.* (http://www.babycenter.com/0_blood-test-for-rh-status-and-antibody-screen_1480.bc)) It is also true that an individual's capacity for any particular kind of intelligence is largely dependent on genetic factors. As far as I know, nobody has yet found a correlation between the genes that determine, say, musical talent or the power to visualize or to think abstractly, and the genes that determine a set of physical characteristics that most would readily recognize as European or African. If you want to find out why Asians are over-represented in California's universities while blacks and Hispanics are underrepresented, you will probably search in vain for a genetic answer. Those who are interested in such things would do better to look at family structure, ethnic traditions, and social conditions.* (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0805811109/roberttoddcarrolA/)

spurious correlations

To correlate race and intelligence in the name of science and have the world pay attention to you is no small feat. Could it be the numbers, the statistics, which impress people? Not likely. Even the most sophisticated numerical analysis which showed a correlation between phlogiston and ether wouldn't get a hearing today. So, why does the race/intelligence bit get a hearing? How can any rational person take seriously notions such as the Aryans or racial purity? Some probably assert these things as a matter of establishing power. Being a member of a pure race is a quick and simple way to establish one's superiority. Membership is easy. You're born into it. Being the right race gives one a right to superiority and justifies inequality, regardless of one's individual deficiencies. It also justifies racism, since if inferior people are succeeding they must be cheating the truly superior people out of their just inheritance. It also justifies believing things about oneself that have no objective validity. A truly inferior being can justify thinking of himself as superior because of his race membership. He can rationalize any failures or inadequacies and attribute them to the unfair advantage given to those he considers inferior. He can even fool himself into thinking his non-white skin is white and that he somehow deserves to share in the accomplishments of anyone in his "white" race. (I have been expected to check "white" on a number of forms concerned about my "race", although when compared to a white sheet of paper, my skin color is clearly not white, but light brown. I have met very few "white" people who are white. At least they are not white in the skin areas generally exposed in public. Truly white people—albinos—come in all races.)

However, even if there were such a thing as a pure race, that fact would not justify considering that race superior to any other. One might even make a case for the inferiority of such a race. Nature clearly favors variation. Chances of survival under varied and changing conditions increase as the species is more varied. Too much similarity could mean racial disaster, extinction; while variation could mean the survival of some members of the species if disaster should strike. Likewise, a species with several varieties of intelligences, as well as individuals with varying degrees of those intelligences, could well be a sign of superiority, at least in terms of the survival potential of the race.

Are the studies of no value that show African-Americans or Asians doing differently than so-called "white" Americans on standardized IQ tests? That is, is the work of people like Herrnstein and Murray worthless? No. It is valuable data, but it is also explosive data because of our racist political history. The data is also often wrong.* (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0805811109/roberttoddcarrolA/) Such data will inevitably be exploited by white supremacists, twisted for their own political goals and used not to improve racial relations in America but to encourage further racial strife. Such data consists mainly of correlations. And while correlations should convince orthodox empirical scientists of nothing, to the racist researcher, correlations are the heart and soul of their work. The furor that The Bell Curve caused died down quickly because there occurred an ongoing saga which usurped its political and entertainment value: the O. J. Simpson trial. In fact, Herrnstein and Murray, in chapter after chapter, call for social reforms to improve the status of blacks in America. They may be disingenuous calls, but they are nevertheless inconsistent with the notion that the social condition of blacks in America is due to genetic factors. If genes led to the black underclass of young thugs who murder each other on a daily basis in almost every city in America, then there would be no point in calling for educational or vocational programs, no point in urging a change of focus for black men and women in their families, as even the black supremacist Louis Farrakhan has recommended with his million man march.

One can't deny that the majority of young men killing each other in gang wars are minorities. But one can deny that the reason they are so violent and immoral is because of their genes. That is false and an insult to the majority of blacks and other minorities who are decent, law-abiding persons. One can't deny that minorities are undereducated as a group and underrepresented in our colleges and universities, and in the professions and skilled trades. But one can deny that the reason minorities are underrepresented is that their genes makes them inferior and incapable of competing with "white" America. Even so, it is true that many minorities are not in college or working as doctors or lawyers or teachers or auto mechanics, etc., because of their race. There are social factors, such as racism and poverty, that continue to adversely affect black progress in America. There are also cultural factors that need to be addressed, but when they are—even by black leaders like Bill Cosby (http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/billcosbypoundcakespeech.htm) or others (http://mirroronamerica.blogspot.com/2006/05/impact-of-rap-music-on-young-black.html)—they are often met with the same kind of resistance that Jensen and Shockley experienced.

It is possible that some day we may be able to look at people of different races and see them as human beings without losing sight of what is special and unique about racial or ethnic membership. We do not need to be colorblind, nor should we strive to ignore racial differences. But they should be seen in a proper perspective: significant in forming us, but irrelevant to our status as human beings capable of both the highest moral and intellectual behavior and of bestial depravity and moronic incompetence.

In the meantime, we should heed Peter Singer's words:

the genetic hypothesis does not imply that we should reduce our efforts to overcome other causes of inequality between people.

...the fact that the average IQ of one racial group is a few points higher than that of another does not allow anyone to say that all members of the higher IQ group have higher IQs than all members of the lower IQ group....

And, having a higher IQ does not justify racism (Singer, 1993), or any other kind of -ism, for that matter.

Arcturus
07-26-2010, 06:39 AM
The three great strategies for obscuring an issue are to introduce irrelevancies, to arouse prejudice, and to excite ridicule.... ---

Bergen Evans, The Natural History of Nonsense


That is interesting, because those are exactly the strategies employed by the author of the IQ article.

Interestingly, skepdic also impugns the Myers-Briggs personality test: http://www.skepdic.com/myersb.html.

Monty
07-26-2010, 06:46 AM
Skepdic.com, as many may know, is the handi-dandi-Randi resource... iIt is unfortunate, therefore, that they decided to throw in their 2 cents regarding race and group IQ variance

These so-called skeptics are not true skeptics. They are self-proclaimed defenders of accepted elite orthodoxy. It is political correctness for nerds and magicians. They spend extraordinary amounts of time debunking obvious quacks and then pretend that gives them a podium to pontificate on speculative issues.

Frank
07-26-2010, 08:47 AM
Are the studies of no value that show African-Americans or Asians doing differently than so-called "white" Americans on standardized IQ tests? That is, is the work of people like Herrnstein and Murray worthless? No. It is valuable data, but it is also explosive data because of our racist political history. The data is also often wrong.*

How can it be valuable if it is wrong?

Such data will inevitably be exploited by white supremacists, twisted for their own political goals and used not to improve racial relations in America but to encourage further racial strife.

This is a laughable accusation since the IQ tests cited by so-called "White Supremacists" place Northeast Asians and Ethnic Jews at the top rungs of the ladder.

The works of people like Jensen and Lynn do not actually benefit the "White Supremacist" cause when one thinks about it rationally.

In his monograph on Asian Americans and IQ, Flynn claims that Chinese Americans' occupational achievements well exceed their IQ. He argues that the best explanation for this is environmental, and is due to such things as education, work ethic, and family values.

Nobody, who understands the concept of IQ, denies that environment does play a part in IQ.

Study claims IQ differences at least 50% genetic (http://scienceblog.com/7669/study-claims-iq-differences-at-least-50-genetic/)

It is not far fetched to conclude that groups with above or average, but close/similar, IQ scores may see disparities in success if one group places a higher collective emphasis on education and learning.

"IQ" stands for "intelligence quotient." A person's IQ is supposed to be a measure of that person's intelligence: the higher the IQ number, the greater the intelligence. This is inaccurate, however, since it assumes that there is only one kind of intelligence.

To be exact:

The Meaning and Measurement of Intelligence

1) Intelligence is a very general mental capability that, among other things, involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly and learn from experience. It is not merely book learning, a narrow academic skill, or test-taking smarts. Rather, it reflects a broader and deeper capability for comprehending our surroundings -- "catching on," "making sense" of things, or "figuring out" what to do.

2) Intelligence, so defined, can be measured, and intelligence tests measure it well. They are among the most accurate (in technical terms, reliable and valid) of all psychological tests and assessments. They do not measure creativity, character, personality, or other important differences among individuals, nor are they intended to.

3) While there are different types of intelligence tests, they all measure the same intelligence. Some use words or numbers and require specific cultural knowledge (like vocabulary). Others do not, and instead use shapes or designs and require knowledge of only simple, universal concepts (many/few, open/closed, up/down).

4) The spread of people along the IQ continuum, from low to high, can be represented well by the BELL CURVE (in statistical jargon, the "normal CURVE"). Most people cluster around the average (IQ 100). Few are either very bright or very dull: About 3% of Americans score above IQ 130 (often considered the threshold for "giftedness"), with about the same percentage below IQ 70 (IQ 70-75 often being considered the threshold for mental retardation).

5) Intelligence tests are not culturally biased against American blacks or other native-born, English-speaking peoples in the U.S. Rather, IQ scores predict equally accurately for all such Americans, regardless of race and social class. Individuals who do not understand English well can be given either a nonverbal test or one in their native language.

6) The brain processes underlying intelligence are still little understood. Current research looks, for example, at speed of neural transmission, glucose (energy) uptake, and electrical activity of the brain.

Mainstream Science on Intelligence (http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/wsj_main.html)

Another accurate claim that can be made is that however IQ is measured it has been increasing with each generation over the past sixty years or so.

However, Flynn also acknowledges that a regression to the mean average exists as well though it tends to take place later in adult life. For example Flynn admits that black Americans possess an IQ of 83.4 by age 24; the black IQ slides down a continual scale from childhood.

harjit
07-26-2010, 09:25 AM
This is a laughable accusation since the IQ tests cited by so-called "White Supremacists" place Northeast Asians and Ethnic Jews at the top rungs of the ladder.
Regarding this point, and this point alone (overall I'm not arguing against IQ differences), many white racists bring up this point of Northeast Asians and Ashkenazis to deflect the idea that their glomming onto, and salivating over, IQ data is tied to their racism. In fact, acknowledging these two is a low-cost throwaway. The main thrust of American racism has historically been to put down and keep down blacks, and the fact of IQ differences dovetails with this wonderfully.

Monty
07-26-2010, 09:30 AM
The main thrust of American racism has historically been to put down and keep down blacks, and the fact of IQ differences dovetails with this wonderfully.

1.) Again, you're over-generalizing. The Asian question comes up repeatedly in American history. And the original racial struggle was with Indian tribes seeking to push Paleface into the Atlantic.

2.) You miss the racialist point. They claim that blacks are going to be down anyway, except for a small fraction which is mulatto and middle-class. So trying to artificially or par with whites will only create more racial conflict and hurt both groups.

harjit
07-26-2010, 09:32 AM
Again, you're over-generalizing. The Asian question comes up repeatedly in American history. And the original racial struggle was with Indian tribes seeking to push Paleface into the Atlantic.
I said the main thrust, not the only instance.

Monty
07-26-2010, 09:35 AM
I said the main thrust, not the only instance.

America was originally founded as an de facto ethnostate for white, English-speaking protestants of Anglo-Saxon and Celtic descent. It was thought that only these people were fit for liberty.

harjit
07-26-2010, 09:38 AM
America was originally founded as an de facto ethnostate for white, English-speaking protestants of Anglo-Saxon and Celtic descent. It was thought that only these people were fit for liberty.
What does this have to do with my reply to Frank?

Monty
07-26-2010, 09:40 AM
What does this have to do with my reply to Frank?

You said "[t]he main thrust of American racism has historically been to put down and keep down blacks."

Frank
07-26-2010, 09:50 AM
You said "[t]he main thrust of American racism has historically been to put down and keep down blacks."

If Professor Flynn states that black American IQ's are in the low-80's by early adulthood are Whites required to keep most black folks down?

Regarding this point, and this point alone (overall I'm not arguing against IQ differences), many white racists bring up this point of Northeast Asians and Ashkenazis to deflect the idea that their glomming onto, and salivating over, IQ data is tied to their racism.

However, it is hard to rationally accuse someone of being a "supremacist" when they argue that their people are middle of the pack in IQ and seek separation rather than dominance.

harjit
07-26-2010, 09:54 AM
You said "[t]he main thrust of American racism has historically been to put down and keep down blacks."
Which doesn't contradict what you said about America's founding. Blacks were still part of the picture, even if only as farm animals.

Angler
07-26-2010, 09:55 AM
America was originally founded as an de facto ethnostate for white, English-speaking protestants of Anglo-Saxon and Celtic descent. It was thought that only these people were fit for liberty.Just out of curiosity, where is any of this written in America's founding documents?

Monty
07-26-2010, 10:00 AM
Just out of curiosity, where is any of this written in America's founding documents?

Get a book called Race: The History Of An Idea In America By Thomas F Gossett.

harjit
07-26-2010, 10:00 AM
However, it is hard to rationally accuse someone of being a "supremacist" when they argue that their people are middle of the pack in IQ and seek separation rather than dominance.
If you're pedantic about the definition of "supremacist" I agree. It still doesn't mean they don't use the data for their ends, which are to make as many people think as badly about blacks as possible, and to salivate over the fact that blacks are stupider.

harjit
07-26-2010, 10:01 AM
Just out of curiosity, where is any of this written in America's founding documents?
If there were, they would no doubt be quoted all over these race boards a million times.

Monty
07-26-2010, 10:03 AM
It still doesn't mean they don't use the data for their ends, which are to make as many people think as badly about blacks as possible, and to salivate over the fact that blacks are stupider.

You talk as if these "racists," whoever they are, simply decided to "hate" blacks, on a whim, because they are different.

Blacks were still part of the picture, even if only as farm animals.

Farm animals? You have a skewed view of history. Considering you hate your own kind, it isn't surprising.

Monty
07-26-2010, 10:05 AM
If there were, they would no doubt be quoted all over these race boards a million times.

Ever heard of the three-fifths clause? Every schoolkid learns about that one.

Felix the Cat
07-26-2010, 10:09 AM
Just out of curiosity, where is any of this written in America's founding documents?Sometimes things are so obvious it isn't thought necessary to write them down.

harjit
07-26-2010, 10:10 AM
Farm animals? You have a skewed view of history. Considering you hate your own kind, it isn't surprising.
We're talking about the time of America's founding. Blacks were slaves with no rights, no?

harjit
07-26-2010, 10:13 AM
Ever heard of the three-fifths clause? Every schoolkid learns about that one.
Nope, will have to Gizoogle it. I was schooled in Canada. Either way, if I haven't seen it hundreds of times on race boards after all this time it's probably too arcane to mean very much.

Monty
07-26-2010, 10:33 AM
Either way, if I haven't seen it hundreds of times on race boards after all this time it's probably too arcane to mean very much.

Or you have no clue what you are talking about, yet are obsessed with fighting "racism" because of your own self-hatred and rootlessness.

Arcturus
07-26-2010, 10:49 AM
Such data consists mainly of correlations. And while correlations should convince orthodox empirical scientists of nothing, to the racist researcher, correlations are the heart and soul of their work.

:rofl: I assume smoking just got a lot safer, as did driving without a seatbelt, driving drunk and fucking low-priced whores without a rubber. Those things are only detrimental if I accept that the risk varies(correlates) proportionately with the amount of risky behavior I engage in, but no real scientist cares about some silly correlations. I may even decide to go snort a fat line of lead acetate. After all, it's only correlational data that suggest Pb exposure causes permanent neurological damage, developmental impairment and a decrease in IQ (not that it would matter anyway, since IQ is a bullshit concept).

Angler
07-26-2010, 11:20 AM
Get a book called Race: The History Of An Idea In America By Thomas F Gossett.Is that one of America's founding documents?

Anyway, what I'm particularly interested in isn't the Founders' views on race, which is well-known (they tolerated and even participated in slavery), but your claim that they founded America as a Protestant nation. Were that the case, I'd expect something along those lines to have made its way into the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution, as opposed to a prohibition on an establishment of any official religion.

Roland
07-26-2010, 01:19 PM
:rofl: I assume smoking just got a lot safer, as did driving without a seatbelt, driving drunk and fucking low-priced whores without a rubber. Those things are only detrimental if I accept that the risk varies(correlates) proportionately with the amount of risky behavior I engage in, but no real scientist cares about some silly correlations. I may even decide to go snort a fat line of lead acetate. After all, it's only correlational data that suggest Pb exposure causes permanent neurological damage, developmental impairment and a decrease in IQ (not that it would matter anyway, since IQ is a bullshit concept).

The author nevertheless seems to believe that the absence of knowledge of a correlation is enough to disprove any connection:

As far as I know, nobody has yet found a correlation between the genes that determine, say, musical talent or the power to visualize or to think abstractly, and the genes that determine a set of physical characteristics that most would readily recognize as European or African. If you want to find out why Asians are over-represented in California's universities while blacks and Hispanics are underrepresented, you will probably search in vain for a genetic answer. Those who are interested in such things would do better to look at family structure, ethnic traditions, and social conditions

Albertus Magnus
07-30-2010, 10:02 PM
Is that one of America's founding documents?

Anyway, what I'm particularly interested in isn't the Founders' views on race, which is well-known (they tolerated and even participated in slavery), but your claim that they founded America as a Protestant nation. Were that the case, I'd expect something along those lines to have made its way into the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution, as opposed to a prohibition on an establishment of any official religion.

No, America was obviously not founded as a Protestant nation if one considers the fact that most of the founding fathers of the US republic were deists and theistic rationalists who advocated religious toleration and abhorred the doctrines of traditional Christianity.

Monty
07-30-2010, 10:10 PM
No, America was obviously not founded as a Protestant nation if one considers the fact that most of the founding fathers of the US republic were....

America was founded sociologically protestant. Christan morality was accepted as dominant and Roman Catholicism was to be discouraged, if not kept out entirely.

The Patriotards are wrong for claiming America was built on Evangelicalism. The secularists are wrong for claiming America was built as an bubble protected from religion.

Albertus Magnus
07-30-2010, 10:19 PM
America was originally founded as an de facto ethnostate for white, English-speaking protestants of Anglo-Saxon and Celtic descent. It was thought that only these people were fit for liberty.

This is simply not true. The founding fathers were generally opposed to organized religion, especially in its Christian form. OTOH, it is true that naturalization was reserved for free white immigrants and that most negroes were disenfranchised; however, such opinions were not as widespread as one would imagine. Some of the founding fathers advocated the integration of the negro into American society; some of the legal institutions of the period argued that negroes were born free and equal and even extended to them the rights of basic citizenship, such as voting. You paint the founders of the American republic as being one monolithic whole, which does not do justice to the history of the period.

Albertus Magnus
07-30-2010, 10:27 PM
America was founded sociologically protestant. Christan morality was accepted as dominant and Roman Catholicism was to be discouraged, if not kept out entirely.

The Patriotards are wrong for claiming America was built on Evangelicalism. The secularists are wrong for claiming America was built as an bubble protected from religion.

Again, this is simply not true. Many of the founding fathers, such as Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, were opposed to organized religion and vociferously anti-clerical, equally despising both Protestantism and Catholicism. If anything, the US was founded on religious toleration, rather than any one religious creed.

Monty
07-30-2010, 10:32 PM
If anything, the US was founded on religious toleration, rather than any one religious creed.

The fact of toleration doesn't change my arguments. Jefferson and Franklin had awful religious views, but they weren't the mainstream of the time. There's a wealth of public statements and documents talking about America as some sort of Christian country -- generically protestant and definitely not Roman Catholic. It was a vague, creedless thing, but American was believed to be part of the Christian West,

The idea of secularization had not arrived yet. it would come with immigrants who resented the low-key Protestant ethics that dominated the country/

Brechun
07-30-2010, 10:32 PM
I knew that article was pretty much crap when I first really got into this debate about 4 years ago. It's elementary level criticisms that do no good to any side of this discourse at this point in time- I mean, some of this stuff was refuted in the 70's.

The part about Flynn finding under prediction of asian achievement relative to IQ is solid, though. But that slightly lower IQ applies only to the ones in the US prior to the 60's immigration act. The author of this piece omits that, unsurprisingly.

Albertus Magnus
07-30-2010, 10:46 PM
The fact of toleration doesn't change my arguments.

It certainly undermines your argument that the US was founded as an exclusively Protestant nation.

Jefferson and Franklin had awful religious views, but they weren't the mainstream of the time.

Maybe not amongst simple, more rustic folk, but they were certainly mainstream amongst the educated classes of the period and most of the founding fathers were deists who embraced Enlightenment values.

There's a wealth of public statements and documents talking about America as some sort of Christian country -- generically protestant and definitely not Roman Catholic. It was a vague, creedless thing, but American was believed to be part of the Christian West,

Again, most of the major founding fathers of the US abhorred Christianity. The US was never founded as a Christian nation, but as a nation that was religion-neutral.

The idea of secularization had not arrived yet. it would come with immigrants who resented the low-key Protestant ethics that dominated the country/

The idea of secularization had already arrived with the founding of the US by men heavily influenced by the anti-clericalism and rationalism of the Enlightenment, men who rejected the divine right of kings and replaced the dogmas of Christianity with those of tolerance and reason.

Monty
07-30-2010, 10:56 PM
It certainly undermines your argument that the US was founded as an exclusively Protestant nation.

No, it doesn't. I mean protestant in the sense of not Roman Catholic
.

Maybe not amongst simple, more rustic folk, but they were certainly mainstream amongst the educated classes of the period..

The educated classes were heavy with ministers and theologians, You are showing some bigotry in thinking that religion was only popular among the simple and rustic.

...and most of the founding fathers were deists who embraced Enlightenment values.


So what?


Again, most of the major founding fathers of the US abhorred Christianity.

Not true. Mostly, they thought they had a better form of Christianity.


The US was never founded as a Christian nation, but as a nation that was religion-neutral.


The historical record proves otherwise. Good grief, what were those school prayers and senate chaplains about?

The idea of secularization had already arrived with the founding of the US by men heavily influenced by the anti-clericalism and rationalism of the Enlightenment

America was mostly influenced by the Scottish Enlightenment, which was dominated by moderate churchmen.

men who rejected the divine right of kings

The Puritans rejected divine right of kings generations before the Enlightenment. Ever heard of Samuel Rutherford?

...and replaced the dogmas of Christianity with those of tolerance and reason.

Thomas Paine wanted this and was considered an extremist.

Albertus Magnus
07-30-2010, 11:18 PM
No, it doesn't. I mean protestant in the sense of not Roman Catholic

Yes it does. The founding fathers believed in the separation of church and state, which indicates that the US was not founded as a Christian nation.

The educated classes were heavy with ministers and theologians, You are showing some bigotry in thinking that religion was only popular among the simple and rustic.

You are being bigoted in your blind insistence that the founders of the US were orthodox Christians. Again, the most influential thinkers and educated men of the period generally rejected Christianity; most of the founding fathers generally despised the Christian religion.

So what?

It matters a great deal. It means that the US was not founded as a Christian republic.

Not true. Mostly, they thought they had a better form of Christianity.

No, they were mostly deists who had rejected traditional Christianity.

The historical record proves otherwise. Good grief, what were those school prayers and senate chaplains about?

The fact that the founders of the US demanded the separation of church and state demonstrates that the US was not founded as a Christian nation.

America was mostly influenced by the Scottish Enlightenment, which was dominated by moderate churchmen.

David Hume, one of the most important figures of the Scottish Enlightenment, rejected Christianity.

The Puritans rejected divine right of kings generations before the Enlightenment. Ever heard of Samuel Rutherford?

So what?

Thomas Paine wanted this and was considered an extremist.

So did Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. Were they extremists?

Monty
07-30-2010, 11:28 PM
Yes it does. The founding fathers believed in the separation of church and state, which indicates that the US was not founded as a Christian nation.

The modern notion of "separation of church and state" only became public policy in the 1960s.

You are being bigoted in your blind insistence that the founders of the US were orthodox Christians.

I didn't say that. I said that America was set up as a vaguely protestant country. The rest of your post is repeating yourself, so I give up.

Albertus Magnus
07-30-2010, 11:45 PM
The modern notion of "separation of church and state" only became public policy in the 1960s.

That's beside the point, as the founding fathers of the US never set out to establish a Christian republic, a fact which is demonstrated by the constitution itself and a number of other official documents.

I didn't say that. I said that America was set up as a vaguely protestant country.

The US was never set up as a Protestant country.

This is from the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli, signed by the US and Tripoli:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion. [...]

The rest of your post is repeating yourself, so I give up.

Of course it is, because you're simply unable to refute any of it.