why do Irish Nationalists find themselves in solidarity with the 3rd world?

[Thomas_Sankara]

I mean I have some ideas, but I've been to Belfast and Dublin about 2 years ago, and everywhere you go, there are murals of leftist 3rd world heroes, like Che Guevara, Ken Saro-Wiwa, Malcolm X, Patrice Lumumba, Fidel Castro and Vladimir Lenin.

Irish were colonized people, but so were the Welsh, Basques, Scottish, and Austrians, but there is no where this affinity with them that the Irish have with leftist symbols and Internationalist Nationalism (if that makes sense), and leftist solidarity. there are almost no right-wing groups anywhere in Ireland except for Belfast, and even then, they're allied with the Loyalists and have a political agenda funded by the British state, and the skinheads aren't Irish nationalist as much as they are UK nationalists.

But go to the Republic of Ireland, and you can probably count the number of right-wingers on one hand. why is there such a strong left-wing presence in Ireland?

Another interesting thing: they find themselves in strong solidarity with the 3rd world instead of mainstream Europe. for example, more Irish people are anti-racist, in support of a Palestinian state, and for social welfare and social causes (I think they donate more to charities than anywhere else on earth per capita) than not. they also have some of the most liberal integration and immigration policies in Europe.

so why is this, and not the case with other European nations and peoples?

[Dante]

Communism has had a lot of influence on the Irish nationalists for some time, going all the way back to the 19th Century.

[Charlie Robespierre]

But go to the Republic of Ireland, and you can probably count the number of right-wingers on one hand. why is there such a strong left-wing presence in Ireland?
Not true. The dominant political ethos in the south is centre right liberal/conservative. It's true the north is hard left though.

That may change as elections loom in the spring but that is the present configuration with a centre-right consensus having been the historical pattern in the 26.

[LordHawHaw]

Not true. The dominant political ethos in the south is centre right liberal. It's true the north is hard left though.

That may change as elections loom in the spring but that is the present configuration with a centre-right consensus having been the historical pattern in the 26.

Hey Mick. A question. How come you usually have George Galloway as your avatar? :confused:

[Charlie Robespierre]

Hey Mick. A question. How come you usually have George Galloway as your avatar? :confused:
Anti-Zionist, God fearing and likes to give the British establishment a bit of a fright at various times.

[LordHawHaw]

Anti-Zionist, God fearing and likes to give the British establishment a bit of a fright at various times.
Thanks for responding. I can take Anti-Zionism, God Fearing(dom) and pissing off the establishment. I just don't like his constant kow-towing to the wogs (but not indigenous British people). I'm not hassleing you. Just my thoughts. :)

[calvin]

Irish were colonized people, but so were the Welsh, Basques, Scottish, and Austrians

The ancient Picts resisted the Romans and were never subjugated by them. These Picts later lost a major battle to the Scots Irish Kings of Dalriada, after which the two kingdoms united under a Scottish king. After this union Scotland was never conquered either by Saxon, Viking, Norman, or English. Scotland has never been subjugated in war and has resisted every effort by every people who have ever tried to do so. Where the fuck does this dimwit get "colonized" from.

[LordHawHaw]

The ancient Picts resisted the Romans and were never subjugated by them. These Picts later lost a major battle to the Scots Irish Kings of Dalriada, after which the two kingdoms united under a Scottish king. After this union Scotland was never conquered either by Saxon, Viking, Norman, or English. Scotland has never been subjugated in war and has resisted every effort by every people who have ever tried to do so. Where the fuck does this dimwit get "colonized" from.

He's just a typical commie who learns slogans but not much more. He's 20. :rolleyes:What do you expect?

[Captain Blackbeard]

Irish were colonized people, but so were the Welsh, Basques, Scottish, and Austrians,

You forget the English. ;)

The English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish were all colonised by various people eg: Normans, Vikings, etc...

The reason why your visits to Ireland have produced such scenes is simply because anything which fucks the British is good enough for them. The same applies for the opposite side too. The Prods will happily side with Israel and any other cause simply because the stone's throw away is siding with the Palis or some other far flung, non-relevant cause.

[Errigal]

Not true. The dominant political ethos in the south is centre right liberal/conservative. It's true the north is hard left though.

That may change as elections loom in the spring but that is the present configuration with a centre-right consensus having been the historical pattern in the 26.

The north of Ireland is hard left? Perhaps if you only can see Sinn Fein voters but if one notices the other humanoids wandering around the northern part of the island you will see they are quite conservative too.

[Basil Fawlty]

But go to the Republic of Ireland, and you can probably count the number of right-wingers on one hand. why is there such a strong left-wing presence in Ireland?You have it the wrong way round. Most Irish are right wing of some kind whereas leftism has always been a minority pursuit and has never gained any real purchase on power.

Another interesting thing: they find themselves in strong solidarity with the 3rd world instead of mainstream Europe. for example, more Irish people are anti-racist, in support of a Palestinian state, and for social welfare and social causes (I think they donate more to charities than anywhere else on earth per capita) than not. they also have some of the most liberal integration and immigration policies in Europe.Most Irish people are not anti-racist, they are non-racist, something quite different. Irish 3rd world charity is rooted in the missionary Catholicism tradition and has nothing to do with leftism. Ireland is not liberal towards immigration, in fact the constitution was altered a few years ago by a massive majority (82%) to make it even more difficult for foreigners to come here and gain citizenship through having children. There is no right of citizenship to foreigners, it is a privilege that is granted to those who fulfill certain conditions. Since the economy went pear-shaped, many foreigners have left, especially after the passing of an employment law which makes it difficult for non-Eu citizens to get work. Multicult propaganda and thought crime laws are very lax to the point of lip-service to satisfy Brussels.
The reason there is no Euro style nationalist movement here is because the mainstream parties are all nationalist to some extent.

[Basil Fawlty]

Thread moved to the Ireland section - please open threads in the appropriate sections.

[007]

Y
The reason why your visits to Ireland have produced such scenes is simply because anything which fucks the British is good enough for them.

In a nutshell.

[Nemesis]

The ancient Picts resisted the Romans and were never subjugated by them. These Picts later lost a major battle to the Scots Irish Kings of Dalriada, after which the two kingdoms united under a Scottish king. After this union Scotland was never conquered either by Saxon, Viking, Norman, or English. Scotland has never been subjugated in war and has resisted every effort by every people who have ever tried to do so. Where the fuck does this dimwit get "colonized" from.

Yeah, Rome tore through Europe and got up to Scotland and said "let's just build a wall". :p

[Errigal]

You forget the English. ;)

The English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish were all colonised by various people eg: Normans, Vikings, etc...

The reason why your visits to Ireland have produced such scenes is simply because anything which fucks the British is good enough for them. The same applies for the opposite side too. The Prods will happily side with Israel and any other cause simply because the stone's throw away is siding with the Palis or some other far flung, non-relevant cause.

Yeah, yeah everybody's the last of the Mohicans nowadays. The "English" were living in harmony with nature when suddenly the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Normans shattered their innocence. Spare me.

[Captain Blackbeard]

Yeah, yeah everybody's the last of the Mohicans nowadays. The "English" were living in harmony with nature when suddenly the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Normans shattered their innocence. Spare me.

You lost me after the second 'yeah'. Has the word 'colonised' been magically changed overnight without me knowing? Will there be new history books to be read?

[Errigal]

You lost me after the second 'yeah'. Has the word 'colonised' been magically changed overnight without me knowing? Will there be new history books to be read?

No it just seems more than a little comical for you to claim to belong to a people "colonized" in the same way, say, the Fijians have been colonized. The "English" did not exist until at least the Angles and Saxons got settled in. I'd even say the English were not recognizably English until the heirs of the Normans really got into the swing of things around the time of Chaucer.

If you want to be one of those short and dark little "Celts" who claim to be a a sort of North Atlantic Bushman then feel free but don't claim your people were English all the way back then. Were the Gauls Frenchmen before meeting and merging with the Franks? I wouldn't say so.

[Kodos]

Irish 3rd world charity is rooted in the missionary Catholicism tradition and has nothing to do with leftism.

Charity is one thing political support for em is leftists by nature.

[Basil Fawlty]

Charity is one thing political support for em is leftists by nature.
In an Irish context these are two different things. However, what you say is plain false, de Valera was no more a leftist than the man in the moon yet he supported Nehru and the INC.

[Captain Blackbeard]

No it just seems more than a little comical for you to claim to belong to a people "colonized" in the same way, say, the Fijians have been colonized. The "English" did not exist until at least the Angles and Saxons got settled in. I'd even say the English were not recognizably English until the heirs of the Normans really got into the swing of things around the time of Chaucer.

If you want to be one of those short and dark little "Celts" who claim to be a a sort of North Atlantic Bushman then feel free but don't claim your people were English all the way back then. Were the Gauls Frenchmen before meeting and merging with the Franks? I wouldn't say so.

I'm afraid you have further confused the discussion. Is there a problem with the historical fact that England and the English have been colonised in their history? I don't see what Fijians, North Atlantic Bushmen and some very loose lessons in ethnicity has to do with it in all honesty.

[Kodos]

In an Irish context these are two different things. However, what you say is plain false, de Valera was no more a leftist than the man in the moon yet he supported Nehru and the INC.

I never found anything admirable about De Valera (Michael Collins is a far more admirable character), he made Ireland a catholic theocracy of mass unemployment (what was typical unemployment in Ireland under Valera, 40%) too bad the British government lost its nerve about executing him because he was a US citizen...

[Basil Fawlty]

I never found anything admirable about De Valera (Michael Collins is a far more admirable character), he made Ireland a catholic theocracy of mass unemployment (what was typical unemployment in Ireland under Valera, 40%) too bad the British government lost its nerve about executing him because he was a US citizen...What business is it of yours? De Valera led the best government this state has ever had and your comments about theocracy are absurd. Why do Americans think they have the right to tell other people how to order their own affairs? Worse than that, you think people you disapprove of should be put to death in matters that have nothing to do with you.
But this is a distraction away from your silly comment about how support for self-determination amongst the colonies equals leftism. This means the Kngdom of France was leftist in the mid-1770's because it supported the American colonists. Ridiculous!

[Flying Drumhead Court-Martial]

Irish were colonized people, but so were the Welsh, Basques, Scottish, and Austrians,

Sure thing, guy.

[Thomas_Sankara]

The north of Ireland is hard left? Perhaps if you only can see Sinn Fein voters but if one notices the other humanoids wandering around the northern part of the island you will see they are quite conservative too.

I think he meant the Irish-Irish, as in, not the Scots-Irish, but the indigenous, oppressed, colonized, raped Irish. you know, the Catholics and Gaelic people who had Britain's boot-heel up their ass for 1000+ years?

[Errigal]

I'm afraid you have further confused the discussion. Is there a problem with the historical fact that England and the English have been colonised in their history?

Yes, that historical fact is not historically factual. The English have not been colonized because they were not the English until after 1066 they were Saxons, Jutes, Angles, various Celts etc.


I don't see what Fijians, North Atlantic Bushmen and some very loose lessons in ethnicity has to do with it in all honesty.

That is correct, the various additions of tribes and waves of conquest that created what we know as England is quite different from Fijians or Bushmen suddenly being colonized and overwhelmed by exotic Europeans. You still seem in your post to like the idea that the English are a colonized people too. That claim makes no sense until the very recent mass immigration starting in the 1950s to now.

[Thomas_Sankara]

You have it the wrong way round. Most Irish are right wing of some kind whereas leftism has always been a minority pursuit and has never gained any real purchase on power.

Idk, because except for abortion and Catholicism, indigenous Irish people in Northern Ireland are some of the most leftist people I've seen, some of the most politically educated, and some of the most dedicated to leftist causes (in the tradition of Bobby Sands, Peatsai O hEadhra, etc.), and Sinn Fein (and it's youth wing Ógra Shinn Féin ) continues to be a very left-leaning, anti-racist, anti-colonialist, Pro-Cuba and borderline Marxist party that continues to gain seats in UK elections, and I'd go as far as to call the issues of An Phoblacht I've seen, heavily Marxist and Socialist.

The reason there is no Euro style nationalist movement here is because the mainstream parties are all nationalist to some extent.

oh come on, Irish nationalism isn't nearly the same thing. Sinn Fein, the old volunteer army, and the IRA have all been heavily influenced by marxism and Catholic "liberation theology", and many of them formed a solidarity bloc with other colonized peoples, i.e, the basques, the Palestinians, etc. as far as spiritual and ideological support. Irish nationalists share nothing at all in common with say, German nationalists or British nationalists. Irish nationalism for one, was never based in theories of exclusionary ideology, but rather national liberation (at least, this is what I have been reading)

from wiki:

A feature of nationalism in many modern European countries is a hostility to foreign immigration - for example, the Front National of Jean Marie Le Pen in France. At present, this is not true of Irish nationalism, despite large and rapid immigration into Ireland in recent years.

it goes on to say that immigration laws have been altered to keep most non-EU citizens out, but that hardly translates to xenophobia, as Ireland is a historically poor country and unemployment is the highest in Europe, next to Spain and Greece, so I'm thinking it's more economic protection than bigoted xenophobic intention. That and I've looked it up, and racial incidents are very very rare in Ireland, to the point of almost being unheard of (although Belfast is truely a hateful city of division, xenophobia, and violence)

[Thomas_Sankara]

I guess my original post was misleading, as I was referring mostly to Northern Ireland, and in particular, the Republican sections of Derry and Belfast, which are covered in socialist murals, antifascist graffiti, the solidarity parades, the anti-fascist leagues, the support for left-wing football clubs St Pauli and Celtic, heavily in favor of Sinn Fein, probably the most leftist mainstream party in Europe.

honestly, it's things like Sinn Fein and Ireland's volunteer armies of the 1900s that makes it so beloved throughout the world as a symbol of fighting against colonialism and imperialism.

[Captain Blackbeard]

[the English] were not the English until after 1066 they were Saxons, Jutes, Angles, various Celts etc.
:gone:


......

[Kodos]

But this is a distraction away from your silly comment about how support for self-determination amongst the colonies equals leftism. This means the Kngdom of France was leftist in the mid-1770's because it supported the American colonists.

That was different they supported an insurrection against an enemy state, thats good realpolitik. Supporting "self determination" in principle IS leftist.

[Basil Fawlty]

That was different they supported an insurrection against an enemy state, thats good realpolitik. Supporting "self determination" in principle IS leftist.An obviously ridiculous thing to say. Has it not occurred to you that supporting Indian/African independence might also help your own cause? On your view Irish support for the Boers was "leftist".

[Felix the Cat]

That reminds me of this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Erskine_Childers)

[Basil Fawlty]

Idk, because except for abortion and Catholicism, indigenous Irish people in Northern Ireland are some of the most leftist people I've seen, some of the most politically educated, and some of the most dedicated to leftist causes (in the tradition of Bobby Sands, Peatsai O hEadhra, etc.), and Sinn Fein (and it's youth wing Ógra Shinn Féin ) continues to be a very left-leaning, anti-racist, anti-colonialist, Pro-Cuba and borderline Marxist party that continues to gain seats in UK elections, and I'd go as far as to call the issues of An Phoblacht I've seen, heavily Marxist and Socialist.Yes, this is true. However, this is evidence of successful action by British intelligence. Here's the formula for the republican movement - the more militarised, the more right wing, the more politicised, the more left wing. The so-called Peace Process involved a long and bloody power struggle in the republican movement to bring about a cease fire. The most militarised elements were most hostile to what became known as the Peace Process (PP). They were sidelined or eliminated largely through the use of traitors in the movement under the control of British intelligence. A number of actions in 1980's resulted in the deaths of the most influential opponents of the PP. The organisation you admire so much is riddled with British agents so much so that it became little more than a sock-puppet of British intelligence. The real nationalists were pushed to the side or killed by your friends. Pushing Marxism has had the result of alienating SF's natural constituency and was no doubt encouraged by their British puppet masters. A high profile incident in the south seriously damaged SF's election hopes there when Gerry Adams became involved in the plight of Nigerian mothers of nominal Irish citizens. Pregnant women were arriving here to have their babies to take advantage of the old law whereby birth here was sufficient for citizenship. These women were being deported and the local leftists were up in arms about the deportation of citizens (their babies). A constitutional referendum put an end to this scam (by a massive majority) by making the right to citizenship jus sanguinis.

Unless SF shoot themselves in the foot by drawing attention to the more leftist items on their agenda they could tale advantage of the current situation and do well in the forthcoming general election. However, things are not looking good for them in the North where their active role in administering British rule in Ireland is costing them dearly. You see, leftists are useful idiots.
oh come on, Irish nationalism isn't nearly the same thing. Sinn Fein, the old volunteer army, and the IRA have all been heavily influenced by marxism and Catholic "liberation theology", and many of them formed a solidarity bloc with other colonized peoples, i.e, the basques, the Palestinians, etc. as far as spiritual and ideological support. Irish nationalists share nothing at all in common with say, German nationalists or British nationalists. Irish nationalism for one, was never based in theories of exclusionary ideology, but rather national liberation (at least, this is what I have been reading)This is a recent aberration. Traditional Irish nationalism has more in common with European nationalism than it does with this deviation.
it goes on to say that immigration laws have been altered to keep most non-EU citizens out, but that hardly translates to xenophobia, as Ireland is a historically poor country and unemployment is the highest in Europe, next to Spain and Greece, so I'm thinking it's more economic protection than bigoted xenophobic intention. No, it's due to the nature of Irish society which is clannish and closed to outsiders. Even an Irish person moving to a new village will not be fully accepted in their lifetime, foreigners stand no chance. This is not to say that they will be rude or hostile to outsiders, just that they will never accept them as part of their community.
That and I've looked it up, and racial incidents are very very rare in Ireland, to the point of almost being unheard of (although Belfast is truely a hateful city of division, xenophobia, and violence)You only seem to be able to look at things through an ideological prism and you are dependent on Wikipedia for your knowledge of Ireland. Absence of racist incidents is not evidence of anti-racism or leftism as much as you would like to interpret it as such. The great majority are opposed to mass immigration but at the same time do not harbour racist sentiments. These two issues have no necessary connection.

[Felix the Cat]

No it just seems more than a little comical for you to claim to belong to a people "colonized" in the same way, say, the Fijians have been colonized. The "English" did not exist until at least the Angles and Saxons got settled in. I'd even say the English were not recognizably English until the heirs of the Normans really got into the swing of things around the time of Chaucer.What the Danes did in northern "England" was clearly "colonization", and involved a lot of nastiness (repaid in kind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Brice%27s_Day_massacre)), though I agree it seems petty to bring it up now given the distance of time.

[Errigal]

What the Danes did in northern "England" was clearly "colonization", and involved a lot of nastiness (repaid in kind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Brice%27s_Day_massacre)), though I agree it seems petty to bring it up now given the distance of time.

Yes such things were colonization by anyone's definition but the descendants of those Danes went on to be a part of the collectivity known as England. Captain Blackbeard here likes the idea that the English are a colonized people in the same way so many parts of the world were after 1492. Like I said everybody wants to be the Last of the Mohicans. Everybody wants to be Sitting Bull and nobody wants to be General Custer now that the age of empires is over. Whatever. It's a very common trend now. King Arthur has been re-imagined as a sort of Nelson Mandela with armour. Hey, cool, I'm all like go for it.

[Charlie Robespierre]

The north of Ireland is hard left? Perhaps if you only can see Sinn Fein voters but if one notices the other humanoids wandering around the northern part of the island you will see they are quite conservative too.
Always on that Anglican-Canadian perch, on patrol in anticipation of the day when we’re all going to stuff your cousins into Gas Chambers? Well, it won’t be today.

Look at the question. Does it say unionists? No, it doesn’t say unionists. It says Irish nationalists in very clear lettering. And I framed my response in that sense. I’ll be sure to remember to be more precise for Officer Errigal in the future though.

[Errigal]

Always on that Anglican-Canadian perch, on patrol in anticipation of the day when we’re all going to stuff your cousins into Gas Chambers? Well, it won’t be today.

Look at the question. Does it say unionists? No, it doesn’t say unionists. It says Irish nationalists in very clear lettering. And I framed my response in that sense. I’ll be sure to remember to be more precise for Officer Errigal in the future though.

No the opening post and your response talks about all of Ireland across the political and social spectrum.

Calm yourself by the way.

[Hartmann von Aue]

This means the Kngdom of France was leftist in the mid-1770's because it supported the American colonists. Ridiculous!

Well, for better or for worse, it was under the sway of what would become the left in France when it supported the American colonies.

[Basil Fawlty]

Well, for better or for worse, it was under the sway of what would become the left in France when it supported the American colonies.You can't possibly be serious.

[Thomas_Sankara]

The great majority are opposed to mass immigration but at the same time do not harbour racist sentiments. These two issues have no necessary connection.

if a country harbors no racist sentiments, even if they have tough immigration laws, I have no problem with it.

besides, Ireland was historically colonized. it'd be hypocritical if I said that immigrants have a right to go there.

Unless SF shoot themselves in the foot by drawing attention to the more leftist items on their agenda they could tale advantage of the current situation and do well in the forthcoming general election. However, things are not looking good for them in the North where their active role in administering British rule in Ireland is costing them dearly. You see, leftists are useful idiots.

Sinn Fein from what I read, has always done poorly in recent history in the Republic of Ireland. however, according to data (it is from wiki, but it's accurate), Sinn Fein's share of the vote continues to rise in European elections:

Total 197,715 11.10% 205,613 11.24%

and they've had only a 0.95% decrease in support in local elections:

Total 883 21 54 54 7.34% (-0.95%)

as far as their traditional rivals and right-wing party the Unionists, they lost seats, and even a flagship seat in East Belfast.

so, for European elections, it grew by more than 10% in between elections 2004 and 2009, even as their leftist agenda (which you say they don't like) became known. So at least in NI, it can be said that they agree with SF on the issues, or else they wouldn't vote for them (unless it's based out of some tribal devotion, but that's not giving the Irish credit for their intelligence)

[Errigal]

That was different they supported an insurrection against an enemy state, thats good realpolitik. Supporting "self determination" in principle IS leftist.

Modern imperialism is far more a leftist than a rightist phenomenon, if by "leftist" you mean socialist-progressive and "rightist" you mean patriotic-conservative. The "mission to civilize" is about as leftist as a person can get. For example, Jules Ferry's call for a French overseas empire to "to civilize the inferior races" came from a man who was as liberal-progressive as a man could be. The people pushing North American Indians into residential schools were overwhelmingly of the same stripe too. Conservatives by definition would rather see the other fellow in a far off land left alone with his own habits and traditions rather than have so-called progress forced upon him.

[Kodos]

Modern imperialism

Im a fan of Pre Wilsonian Imperialism, also some people really shouldn't have nukes.

[Captain Blackbeard]

Captain Blackbeard here likes the idea that the English are a colonized people in the same way so many parts of the world were after 1492.

Thank you for putting false words into my mouth, but I'll talk for myself if that's all the same to you, Errigal.

The point I came in on was:

Irish were colonized people, but so were the Welsh, Basques, Scottish, and Austrians,

Going by your logic, the only ones colonised after your allowed time period is the Irish and the Basques, yet no other British nation was thrown before your Celtic snobbery.

[Charlie Robespierre]

No the opening post and your response talks about all of Ireland across the political and social spectrum.

Calm yourself by the way.
Everyone but the wilfully obstinate understood the context of my comment.

[Errigal]

Thank you for putting false words into my mouth, but I'll talk for myself if that's all the same to you, Errigal.

I'm not basing my caricature of your views just on your posts in this one thread, I'm basing it on many. If you don't think the Union or Empire worked out well for England and the English that's fine but you do seem to want to make up a national narrative that doesn't match the facts.



The point I came in on was:



Going by your logic, the only ones colonised after your allowed time period is the Irish and the Basques, yet no other British nation was thrown before your Celtic snobbery.

I may be a snob but I'm not a Celtic one; I'm what they call a "mudblood" in the Harry Potter universe. I have too much Norse mercenary and Ulster-Scots in my family tree to be the Voldemort of the Celts or whatever.

[Errigal]

Everyone but the wilfully obstinate understood the context of my comment.

I understood what you said and added to it. I don't disagree with you.

[Captain Blackbeard]

I'm not basing my caricature of your views just on your posts in this one thread, I'm basing it on many.

Fair enough then.

If you don't think the Union or Empire worked out well for England and the English that's fine but you do seem to want to make up a national narrative that doesn't match the facts.

Under the Union we all did very well. Each member of the British Isles simply excelled under the Union. I wouldn't deny that, and never have, but the one thing I do try and make others appreciate and understand is the Union wasn't an English Union nor was it culturally favourable to the English.

[Errigal]

Fair enough then.



Under the Union we all did very well. Each member of the British Isles simply excelled under the Union. I wouldn't deny that, and never have, but the one thing I do try and make others appreciate and understand is the Union wasn't an English Union nor was it culturally favourable to the English.

Looking at England from the outside I'd say the better parts of its character got crowded out by the Industrial Revolution and then the Big Bang of the City. The first brought the rise of the mass man - both the workers and the owners - and the second did enormous economic and cultural damage over the Thatcher years and later as England was supposed to become not much more than the hinterland of the stockbroker belt.

[Basil Fawlty]

Under the Union we all did very well. Each member of the British Isles simply excelled under the Union. I wouldn't deny that, and never have, but the one thing I do try and make others appreciate and understand is the Union wasn't an English Union nor was it culturally favourable to the English.The union was a disaster for Ireland.

[Errigal]

The union was a disaster for Ireland.

Yes, as much as a person can be certain of such speculations on history I'm certain the Act of Union was a tragically wrong turn for everyone.

[Basil Fawlty]

Yes, as much as a person can be certain of such speculations on history I'm certain the Act of Union was a tragically wrong turn for everyone.Perhaps, but I was making a very specific (and demonstrable) claim. The Act of Union 1801 was against Ireland's interests and the effects were tangibly catastrophic.

[Errigal]

Perhaps, but I was making a very specific (and demonstrable) claim. The Act of Union 1801 was against Ireland's interests and the effects were tangibly catastrophic.

Yes that's what I was saying.

[Captain Blackbeard]

The union was a disaster for Ireland.

Very much so for the low class Irishman, but someone somewhere always benefits.

[Errigal]

Very much so for the low class Irishman, but someone somewhere always benefits.

No even the better off Irishman was better off with his own parliament in Dublin. The families represented in Grattan's parliament and their less wealthy neighbours would have all been better off engaging in self-governance over the 19th century. The potato blight still would have happened, all the unresolved issues on land ownership would have come to a boil and the culture wars of the RCC against its continental enemies would still have shaken Irish politics but all Irish would have been better off. The 19th and early 20th century would have been a rough ride in Irish politics no matter what but it would have turned out far better with self-rule.

[Basil Fawlty]

Very much so for the low class Irishman, but someone somewhere always benefits.That's simple, Britain benefited.

[Lud]

Supporting "self determination" in principle IS leftist.

Weikel, in so many areas your politics are upside-down. Only an American AEI / Bill Kristol or Goldberg fan could have such screwed up political bearings.

[Kodos]

Weikel, in so many areas your politics are upside-down. Only an American AEI / Bill Kristol or Goldberg fan could have such screwed up political bearings.

You're a fan of Wilsonian principles now (conservatives and realist support Westphalian principles)?

[Felix the Cat]

No even the better off Irishman was better off with his own parliament in Dublin. The families represented in Grattan's parliament and their less wealthy neighbours would have all been better off engaging in self-governance over the 19th century.
How broad was the franchise in those days? How long would Catholics have tolerated rule by the Anglo-Irish if given an alternative? What were the consequences in Ireland of the expansion of the franchise after 1867?

[Errigal]

How broad was the franchise in those days?

It was quite narrow. Off the top of my head I think it was one in forty.


How long would Catholics have tolerated rule by the Anglo-Irish if given an alternative?

Catholics were allowed to vote under the 1793 Act.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Relief_Act_1791#The_Irish_Act_of_1793

The later Catholic emancipation legislation would have gone ahead and political factions and cliques would shift and re-form as different groups were given the vote. Industrial workers in Ulster may have bridged the religious divide to gang up on the mill and shipyard owners; the Tories and the "castle Catholics" could have formed a coalition against the United Irishmen types. There are all sorts of likely coalitions. The 19th century would be a politically bumpy ride no matter what.


What were the consequences in Ireland of the expansion of the franchise after 1867?

There was so much other stuff going on back then that I think it was lost in the shuffle.

[Ardito]

Irish nationalism is and has always been leftist in character. It makes perfect sense, therefore, for Irish nationalists to identify with other leftists internationally.

[Basil Fawlty]

Irish nationalism is and has always been leftist in character. It makes perfect sense, therefore, for Irish nationalists to identify with other leftists internationally.Irish nationalism has never been leftist in character. Wherever did you get such a notion?

[Ardito]

Irish nationalism has never been leftist in character. Wherever did you get such a notion?

It has always justified itself by appealing to the people, rather than to any kind of higher principle. It is only, for example, Catholic, to the extent that Irish people tend to be Catholic. The call is not "The king is a heretic, therefore, we should become a separate nation with a righteous king", it's "The king is evil because he oppresses the Irish, therefore, we should become a separate democratic nation".

[Man of Ash]

It has always justified itself by appealing to the people, rather than to any kind of higher principle. It is only, for example, Catholic, to the extent that Irish people tend to be Catholic. The call is not "The king is a heretic, therefore, we should become a separate nation with a righteous king", it's "The king is evil because he oppresses the Irish, therefore, we should become a separate democratic nation".
It is still right-wing insofar as it appeals to the people as an ethnos, not an economic class. It would be absurd to call figures like Pearse and DeValera leftists.

By the way, welcome to the Phora.

[Ardito]

It is still right-wing insofar as it appeals to the people as an ethnos, not an economic class. It would be absurd to call figures like Pearse and DeValera leftists.

The impression I have of it, having been around a lot of Irish nationalists in my life, is that it only appeals to the Irish ethnos because, throughout history, typically only Irish people have been an "oppressed" class in Ireland. I haven't detected any strong anti-immigrant or anti-liberal current in Irish nationalism. It's only pro-Irish and pro-Irish tradition to the extent that it's anti-British.


By the way, welcome to the Phora.

Thankyou.

[Basil Fawlty]

It has always justified itself by appealing to the people, rather than to any kind of higher principle.God and Patria are higher principles. God is the highest. It is only, for example, Catholic, to the extent that Irish people tend to be Catholic. The call is not "The king is a heretic, therefore, we should become a separate nation with a righteous king", it's "The king is evil because he oppresses the Irish, therefore, we should become a separate democratic nation".This is wrong. The call is "there is no king, only a foreign tyrant."

[Ardito]

God is the highest.

I agree. This is my grievance with Irish nationalism. It's only incidentally religious, to the extent that Irish people are. It wants to preserve things which are peculiarly Irish, such as being Catholic, simply because they are peculiarly Irish, not because it thinks they have any inherent value of their own (although it may also do this incidentally). It's a subtle distinction, but I think it's very important.

[harjit]

Our resident Irish nationalists Basil and Mick/Keith's Cornershop seem to viscerally prefer backward 3rd world muds to such advanced peoples as Americans, English and Jews.

[Basil Fawlty]

I agree. This is my grievance with Irish nationalism. It's only incidentally religious, to the extent that Irish people are.Rubbish, Irish nationalism makes no sense without God and it's decline parallels the decline of fidelity with Catholicism, the one truly universal religion.
I don't know what you are talking about when you speak of Irish nationalism. I wonder if you have ever even been to Ireland.
It wants to preserve things which are peculiarly Irish, such as being Catholic, simply because they are peculiarly Irish, not because it thinks they have any inherent value of their own (although it may also do this incidentally). It's a subtle distinction, but I think it's very important.You are confused. All nationalists believe that the particularities of their people are worth preserving. This is a universal value. I believe that all peoples should preserve their particularity insofar as it does not violate their obligation to certain basic universal moral obligations that might be owed, e.g. not believing themselves to be intrinsically superior and therefore released from such moral obligations. This is why I regard biological racism as a wicked doctrine apart from its also being false. It's also why I would regard Judaism as false and wicked insofar as it cultivates a superior attitude towards non-Jews.
So you see, traditional Irish nationalism (you are addressing an exponent of it!) has this universal dimension. The forces that seek to eliminate our particularity also seek to eliminate the particularity of all peoples everywhere. This is why I can and do find common cause with all the people of the earth who are under attack by the forces of global capital. This stance does not entail socialism therefore characterising us as leftists is false.

[Basil Fawlty]

Our resident Irish nationalists Basil and Mick/Keith's Cornershop seem to viscerally prefer backward 3rd world muds to such advanced peoples as Americans, English and Jews.I think all right thinking people do, regardless of their other commitments. :rofl:

[Errigal]

I think all right thinking people do, regardless of their other commitments. :rofl:

Yeah that's true, at least an Ecuadorian or Cambodian might be able to have a sincere and thoughtful conversation and laugh at themselves occassionaly.

[Rosarium]

Sinn Fein, the old volunteer army, and the IRA have all been heavily influenced by marxism and Catholic "liberation theology",

Sinn Féin was around long before Liberation Theology, never mind the volunteers. You completely underestimate just how staunchly Catholic (which Liberation Theology is not) the Irish people are. The Provisional IRA came into being out of a rejection of leftist principles of the IRA and a desire to protect the Catholics of the North. One of the Provo's first actions took place on a church ground as they defended it from Orange mobs.

The leftist aspects of Irish politics are always superficial. When you actually dig down to it you realise they are a minority. Vocal though.

Keep in mind that during the Easter Rising the majority of the volunteers were right-thinking Catholic Irishmen with James Connolly and his socialists being in a minority.

and many of them formed a solidarity bloc with other colonized peoples, i.e, the basques, the Palestinians, etc. as far as spiritual and ideological support. Irish nationalists share nothing at all in common with say, German nationalists or British nationalists. Irish nationalism for one, was never based in theories of exclusionary ideology, but rather national liberation (at least, this is what I have been reading)

Of course Irish nationalism has nothing in common with British or German nationalism.. that's because British and German nationalism is state-worship. It's about making the state into a golden calf. Irish nationalism does have things in common with some sections of Spanish nationalism though.

For all of the vaunted republicanism in Ireland not many Irishmen are really republicans.

[Charlie Robespierre]

To a point you can get distracted by left or right with the Irish question. The Anglo-Americans and the Europeans seem to me to have different definitions of these terms. The Irish have again gone their own way with these signifers -- certainly historically they have. So many of us wind up talking past each other.

The bottom-line is whether Irish nationalists have striven to obey God and are they ethnocentric? The answer is a resounding is yes and yes on both accounts.

Even Connolly reaches this standard towards the end and climax of his tragedy.

I'm not sure there are international comparisons. Perhaps Croatia might be one.

[Steinbrink]

Communism has had a lot of influence on the Irish nationalists for some time, going all the way back to the 19th Century.


True.

All one has to do is look at their constitution, and trace the origins of it.

[Errigal]

To a point you can get distracted by left or right with the Irish question. The Anglo-Americans and the Europeans seem to me to have different definitions of these terms. The Irish have again gone their own way with these signifers -- certainly historically they have. So many of us wind up talking past each other.

The bottom-line is whether Irish nationalists have striven to obey God and are they ethnocentric? The answer is a resounding is yes and yes on both accounts.

Even Connolly reaches this standard towards the end and climax of his tragedy.

I'm not sure there are international comparisons. Perhaps Croatia might be one.

Quebec is similar. There are patriotic social democrats, deeply Catholic trade unionists, liberals in the continental European and Rathmines style, "castle Catholics", lots of similarities. Comparing the Irish to the Croats does them a disservice I think. Funny thing is the Croats were historically in the role of the Ulster Planters more than anything: securing a frontier between large powers by settlement.

[Steinbrink]

I mean I have some ideas, but I've been to Belfast and Dublin about 2 years ago, and everywhere you go, there are murals of leftist 3rd world heroes, like Che Guevara, Ken Saro-Wiwa, Malcolm X, Patrice Lumumba, Fidel Castro and Vladimir Lenin.

Irish were colonized people, but so were the Welsh, Basques, Scottish, and Austrians, but there is no where this affinity with them that the Irish have with leftist symbols and Internationalist Nationalism (if that makes sense), and leftist solidarity. there are almost no right-wing groups anywhere in Ireland except for Belfast, and even then, they're allied with the Loyalists and have a political agenda funded by the British state, and the skinheads aren't Irish nationalist as much as they are UK nationalists.

But go to the Republic of Ireland, and you can probably count the number of right-wingers on one hand. why is there such a strong left-wing presence in Ireland?

Another interesting thing: they find themselves in strong solidarity with the 3rd world instead of mainstream Europe. for example, more Irish people are anti-racist, in support of a Palestinian state, and for social welfare and social causes (I think they donate more to charities than anywhere else on earth per capita) than not. they also have some of the most liberal integration and immigration policies in Europe.

so why is this, and not the case with other European nations and peoples?

It's a good question. The answer might be something to do with the EU handouts they get in return for their support for the commie EU.

As they say follow the money.

v=1yJ87y7BR80

Ogenoct provides some further clues..........http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=36025

Gerry Adams welcoming Africans into Europe's backyard.

[Steinbrink]

some more info......on the Sinn Fein / 'Irish' position on foreigners.......


Many Voices One Country: Cherishing all the children of the nation equally - Towards an anti-racist Ireland

* Get PDF (228 KB)

As Ireland becomes a more multi-cultural country, the challenge is to embrace our growing diversity as a source of strength and opportunity. To do this we must begin by opposing racism, discrimination and intolerance of any kind wherever it occurs. We all know that racism does not grow by accident.

Everywhere it has taken hold it is because unscrupulous people in politics and other spheres of society have nurtured it for their own cynical interests. It is up to political leaders to make clear that they will not play party politics with the race issue and that they will not tolerate racism in any form in their party.

Sinn Féin believes that it is essential that we speak out and act against racism. This requires a multi- faceted response: politically, educationally and working with communities, and on an all-Ireland basis. Sinn Féin will continue to give political leadership on this issue.

Sinn Féin calls on all political parties in Ireland to sign an anti-racist pledge and make a commitment that they will not play party politics with the race issue and that they will not tolerate racism in any form in their party.


http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/16524

[Felix the Cat]

Irish nationalism is pragmatic. It adopted republican revolutionary ideas in the 1790s; revolutionary socialist ones after 1917, and again after 1945; and fascist ones in the 1930s. The cause remains the same but the methods change according to circumstances.

[Vindex]

The Irish find solidarity with the turd world, till they have them swarm their shores. Then the laws of nature otherwise known as reality come into play.

I wonder how many Jews have a hand in Irelands self genocidal policy.

[Basil Fawlty]

Irish nationalism is pragmatic. It adopted republican revolutionary ideas in the 1790s; revolutionary socialist ones after 1917, and again after 1945; and fascist ones in the 1930s. The cause remains the same but the methods change according to circumstances.You're right about the pragmatism but socialism was largely absent in 1919-23 and the brief dalliance with (pseudo)fascism was by anti-republicans. The Blueshirts were formed to defend the interests of big farmers.

[Charlie Robespierre]

The utopian appeal of leftism brings out the activists in the way that rightism doesn't. So with a highly-motivated mass-activist base PSF could bring the political challenge to unionism in a short period of time. Leftism has a tendency to freeze over though so if PSF want unionists to defect in numbers they are going to have amend their iceberg ideology. This task will probably be left to the centre-right parties in the south if they ever implement their plans to move north which have been delayed by the current economic crises.

I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from Gerry Adams. He's a kind of world-celebrity in the way that a whole spectrum of influential Irish political players presently active just aren't.

[Steinbrink]

One look at the Irish constitution and one can easily see what kind of 'Utopia' was 'swallowed'.

I don't agree with British Imperialism, but to side with International Communism.

[Errigal]

One look at the Irish constitution and one can easily see what kind of 'Utopia' was 'swallowed'.

I don't agree with British Imperialism, but to side with International Communism.

The Irish Republic is communist in character?

[Charlie Robespierre]

One look at the Irish constitution and one can easily see what kind of 'Utopia' was 'swallowed'.

I don't agree with British Imperialism, but to side with International Communism.:rofl:
In fact the Irish Constitution is a sturdy rightist Constitution and the Irish government was snubbing the Soviets long after it was fashionable for Western nations to decline a Soviet embassy.

[Steinbrink]

The Irish find solidarity with the turd world, till they have them swarm their shores. Then the laws of nature otherwise known as reality come into play.

I wonder how many Jews have a hand in Irelands self genocidal policy.

That's the question.

[Basil Fawlty]

The Irish Republic is communist in character?Yes, that's why the Soviet's blocked Ireland's entry into the UN for so long. :rofl:

[Felix the Cat]

Yes, that's why the Soviet's blocked Ireland's entry into the UN for so long. :rofl:
This is an interesting story:

70417

[Basil Fawlty]

are you sure your from this planet ?
Where did you find that? It doesn't come up on a forum search.

[Steinbrink]

Where did you find that? It doesn't come up on a forum search.

only you would know about that, only you.

[Basil Fawlty]

only you would know about that, only you.Post a link to where M&K says that.

[Basil Fawlty]

@Steinbrink - I've deleted the offending post. Any more smear attempts against other posters will have consequences.

[Charlie Robespierre]

I'm surprised this battery-powered action figure of Rosenberg knows who Galloway is.

Galloway is interesting for his international commitments and his broad support for unipolar actors. He's also a vocal force in attempting to dissuade Anglo-America from their lethal routine of unilateral militant interventionism.

His domestic commitments do have a certain eccentric character I'll grant but are ultimately of minor concern as I'm neither a member of English society nor an Englishman myself.

[LordHawHaw]

I'm surprised this battery-powered action figure of Rosenberg knows who Galloway is.

Galloway is interesting for his international commitments and his broad support for unipolar actors. He's also a vocal force in attempting to dissuade Anglo-America from their lethal routine of unilateral militant interventionism.

His domestic commitments do have a certain eccentric character I'll grant but are ultimately of minor concern as I'm neither a member of English society nor an Englishman myself.

So you don't mind if he helps Britain along to destruction then?

[Charlie Robespierre]

So you don't mind if he helps Britain along to destruction then?
Not being English this is not among my personal priorities, no, whereas the removal of the British state as a menace on the world and regional stage is further up my priority list.

As for The English Demographic Wars, that's the Englishman's battle.

[Steinbrink]

I'm surprised this battery-powered action figure of Rosenberg knows who Galloway is.

Galloway is interesting for his international commitments and his broad support for unipolar actors. He's also a vocal force in attempting to dissuade Anglo-America from their lethal routine of unilateral militant interventionism.

His domestic commitments do have a certain eccentric character I'll grant but are ultimately of minor concern as I'm neither a member of English society nor an Englishman myself.



There's nothing interesting about Galloway, he's just another mouth piece.

[Basil Fawlty]

There's nothing interesting about Galloway, he's just another mouth piece.Even Galloway's flatulence would make more sense than anything emerging from your mouth.

[Steinbrink]

@Steinbrink - I've deleted the offending post. Any more smear attempts against other posters will have consequences.



your idol and 'founder'.......


James Connolly

Class Government and Class War
(May 1901)

The Workers’ Republic, May 1901.
Reprinted in Red Banner, No.17 (PO Box 6587, Dublin 6).
Transcribed by Aindrias Ó Cathasaigh.
Marked up by Einde O’Callaghan for the Marxists’ Internet Archive.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Socialists are always accused of trying to create ill feeling, to bring about a class struggle, to “set class against class”. Of course, the real fact is, we only point out what already exists, analysing the political and industrial institutions under which we live and critically noting the forces which produce them in any given phase. The necessary result of our analysis is to discover that the very basis of Society today is a struggle between two classes, the Landlord and Capitalist who own all the means of production, and the propertyless class who are only allowed to use and operate these means of life when it suits the convenience or interest of members of the other class to allow them.



Looks very Marxists.

Q: why did nobody pipe up to say "can't you think for yourself Connolly ?"

[Basil Fawlty]

your idol and 'founder'.......My idol? Didn't know that.
He died a good Catholic making his confession and receiving the last rites. Not very "Marxist" of him I would have thought.

[Rosarium]

The socialists were a minority participant in the Easter Rising :munch: ..

[Steinbrink]

James Connolly

Class Government and Class War(May 1901)

The Workers’ Republic, May 1901.
Reprinted in Red Banner, No.17 (PO Box 6587, Dublin 6).
Transcribed by Aindrias Ó Cathasaigh.
Marked up by Einde O’Callaghan for the Marxists’ Internet Archive.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Socialists are always accused of trying to create ill feeling, to bring about a class struggle, to “set class against class”. Of course, the real fact is, we only point out what already exists, analysing the political and industrial institutions under which we live and critically noting the forces which produce them in any given phase. The necessary result of our analysis is to discover that the very basis of Society today is a struggle between two classes, the Landlord and Capitalist who own all the means of production, and the propertyless class who are only allowed to use and operate these means of life when it suits the convenience or interest of members of the other class to allow them.



Class War = Marxist.

[Basil Fawlty]

Class War = Marxist.He doesn't say war, he says struggle. Ever consider that it might be true?

[Steinbrink]

He doesn't say war, he says struggle. Ever consider that it might be true?


Have you ever read Marx ?

If you knew anything you'd know what i'm talking about.

[Basil Fawlty]

Have you ever read Marx ?Yes but you obviously have not.
If you knew anything you'd know what i'm talking about.You don't know what you're talking about.

[LordHawHaw]

Not being English this is not among my personal priorities, no, whereas the removal of the British state as a menace on the world and regional stage is further up my priority list.

As for The English Demographic Wars, that's the Englishman's battle.
First they came for the English,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't English.

Then they came for the Welsh,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't Welsh.

Then they came for the Scots,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Scot.

Then they came for Irish
and there was no one left to speak out for us.

Pastor O'HawHaw.

[Basil Fawlty]

First they came for the English,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't English.

Then they came for the Welsh,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't Welsh.

Then they came for the Scots,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Scot.

Then they came for Irish
and there was no one left to speak out for us.

Pastor O'HawHaw.Who is 'they' in this context?

[LordHawHaw]

Who is 'they' in this context?

Whoever is social-engineering the displacement of the European peoples. Care to make a guess?

[Basil Fawlty]

Whoever is social-engineering the displacement of the European peoples. Care to make a guess?The ruling elites of globalised capital. Where were the English when the Irish faced their darkest hours?

[LordHawHaw]

The ruling elites of globalised capital. Where were the English when the Irish faced their darkest hours?

These are different times. The future of European man is at stake. Are we to continually dredge up the past while these same elites laugh? Scotland suffered under the English also. So what? We live in the now.

[Basil Fawlty]

These are different times. The future of European man is at stake. Are we to continually dredge up the past while these same elites laugh? Scotland suffered under the English also. So what? We live in the now.I've noticed throughout my life the English are always telling the victims of their crimes to either get over it or they complain about their inconvenient memory. I've no desire to see harm come to the English people but it's a bit offensive to be always told that we have to show solidarity now and put the past behind us. It's still very much part of the present and I wish it were in the past. Maybe a weak or internally divided Britain is better for the Irish people? Maybe if you have your own troubles that will guarantee that you don't come over here again. I don't really know one way or the other, but it's not immediately obvious to me why we should really care about your predicament.

[Dan Dare]

... I don't really know one way or the other, but it's not immediately obvious to me why we should really care about your predicament.

If England falls along with the rest of western Europe, do you really believe the wogs will end at Holyhead?

[Basil Fawlty]

If England falls along with the rest of western Europe, do you really believe the wogs will end at Holyhead?Who sad anything about the rest of Europe? I was asking why the Irish should care about the English?

[Dan Dare]

Who sad anything about the rest of Europe? I was asking why the Irish should care about the English?

Well the English predicament is shared with that of all western Europeans, but even if it weren't, there is simply no way that Ireland could avoid contagion. It is in your own basic interest to care about what happens to the English, it's somewhat baffling that your myopic nostalgia and keening sense of grievance continue to prevent you from acknowledging that simple fact of life.

[Basil Fawlty]

Well the English predicament is shared with that of all western Europeans, but even if it weren't, there is simply no way that Ireland could avoid contagion.I don't think that's entirely true.
The rest of Europe, which I travel in frequently enough, does not strike me as being in the kind of predicament of England. Even Scotland is relatively free of certain defining features of the place south of the border. We have managed to avoid, so far, the worst features of the British experience.
It is in your own basic interest to care about what happens to the English, it's somewhat baffling that your myopic nostalgia and keening sense of grievance continue to prevent you from acknowledging that simple fact of life.It might be in our basic interest to see the other island internally fragmented. The devil makes work for idle hands and all that.

[Dan Dare]

I don't think that's entirely true.
The rest of Europe, which I travel in frequently enough, does not strike me as being in the kind of predicament of England. Even Scotland is relatively free of certain defining features of the place south of the border.

That won't remain the case for very long should the SNP prevail and Scotland gain its independence. One of their principal beefs with the Westminster Parliament's continuing mandate over immigration is that Scotland does not receive its 'fair share' of new entrants.

I don't know where you've been travelling but my recent sojourns in France, Germany, Switzerland and Austria yielded exactly the opposite impression. Surely you can't be unaware of the 'Sarrazin Affair' which transfixed Germany last summer and continues to do so.

It might be in our basic interest to see the other island internally fragmented. The devil makes work for idle hands and all that.

What possible scenario do you envisage that might raise such an irrational fear?

[Basil Fawlty]

That won't remain the case for very long should the SNP prevail and Scotland gain its independence. One of their principal beefs with the Westminster Parliament's continuing mandate over immigration is that Scotland does not receive its 'fair share' of new entrants.

I don't know where you've been travelling but my recent sojourns in France, Germany, Switzerland and Austria yielded exactly the opposite impression. Surely you can't be unaware of the 'Sarrazin Affair' which transfixed Germany last summer and continues to do so.Britain feels totally different, lock-down, the omnipresence of cctv, binge drinking, multiculti gone mad. Apparently there are ten times more inter-racial unions than anywhere else. I'd believe that based on my own eye-ball experience.
Nothing quite like this prevails in the rest of Europe.
What possible scenario do you envisage that might raise such an irrational fear?How is understanding history irrational?

[Dan Dare]

Britain feels totally different, lock-down, the omnipresence of cctv, binge drinking, multiculti gone mad. Apparently there are ten times more inter-racial unions than anywhere else. I'd believe that based on my own eye-ball experience. Nothing quite like this prevails in the rest of Europe.

Some of that is certainly true, but similar phenomena are visible all across western Europe. I'm unsure about your comments concerning inter-racial unions and have never seen comparative statistics (I'd be surprised if they are even collected in France, for example). However I do know, and can provide supporting citations, that 98% of English men and 99% of English women are not involved in an inter-racial union. So that's one instance at least in which the Mk I eyeball has led you to an erroneous conclusion.

How is understanding history irrational?

It isn't, but holding irrational fears based upon nothing is particular certainly is. By your reckoning, the English should be unconcerned about the predicament of the Germans, or the French, and be hoping that those countries become internally fragmented. Just how silly would that be?

[Basil Fawlty]

It isn't, but holding irrational fears based upon nothing is particular certainly is. They are not irrational fears, if only they were.
By your reckoning, the English should be unconcerned about the predicament of the Germans, or the French, and be hoping that those countries become internally fragmented. Just how silly would that be?The Germans and the French did not spend the best part of eight and a half centuries in occupation of your country and still ongoing. I really wonder about you, you take this Clarkson thing a bit too far sometimes.

[Errigal]

They are not irrational fears, if only they were.
The Germans and the French did not spend the best part of eight and a half centuries in occupation of your country and still ongoing. I really wonder about you, you take this Clarkson thing a bit too far sometimes.

Dan is putting on an act or has been putting on an act for so long that he can't tell whether he's in character anymore.

[Dan Dare]

Dan is putting on an act or has been putting on an act for so long that he can't tell whether he's in character anymore.

Ooh Errigal you aren't half a card.

But can you shed any light on these atavistic fears of Basil's that lead him to hope that England will be broken up into smaller pieces? Basil seems unable to articulate them for himself, so what do you think he is concerned about that might happen in the future?

[Dan Dare]

They are not irrational fears, if only they were.

You seem to having an awful difficulty in explaining what they really are.

The Germans and the French did not spend the best part of eight and a half centuries in occupation of your country and still ongoing.

It wasn't for the want of trying.

[Errigal]

Ooh Errigal you aren't half a card.

But can you shed any light on these atavistic fears of Basil's that lead him to hope that England will be broken up into smaller pieces? Basil seems unable to articulate them for himself, so what do you think he is concerned about that might happen in the future?

If the English seemed to be able to treat their neighbours with more respect then I wouldn't wish them ill either. I have quite a few English relatives and like the countryside there but the English as a nation are tough to love. Funny thing too is that, thanks to the sharp regional and class differences, there are vastly different sorts of Englishmen who are annoying or obnoxious in their own distinctive ways.

[Basil Fawlty]

You seem to having an awful difficulty in explaining what they really are.I have no difficulty because I already have. Would you trust someone who has spent most of your life trying to destroy you?
It wasn't for the want of trying.France and Germany have spent over 800 years trying to invade England? And you call me paranoid?

[Dan Dare]

If the English seemed to be able to treat their neighbours with more respect then I wouldn't wish them ill either. I have quite a few English relatives and like the countryside there but the English as a nation are tough to love. Funny thing too is that, thanks to the sharp regional and class differences, there are vastly different sorts of Englishmen who are annoying or obnoxious in their own distinctive ways.

I didn't get the impression it was lack of 'spec that is causing Basil to have the heebie-jeebies but rather something much more sinister.

Of course as you know I will always defer to your compendious knowledge of English social structures and regional differences. Your treatise on the grunting inarticularcy of the residents of County Durham is one to treasure.

[Errigal]

I didn't get the impression it was lack of 'spec that is causing Basil to have the heebie-jeebies but rather something much more sinister.

Of course as you know I will always defer to your compendious knowledge of English social structures and regional differences. Your treatise on the grunting inarticularcy of the residents of County Durham is one to treasure.

Not treatise required; just noticing how many people from the north of England are thick as shit is research enough.

I'm glad you mentioned that actually. You are here telling the Irish to grow a thicker skin when you went ape and brought up a dead grandfather when I introduced my observations on the bovine character of the northern English.

[Errigal]

You bring out the worst in me Dan. Why can't you just speak politely to us foreigners? Other people seem to be able to do it, why are the English so damned bad at it?

[LordHawHaw]

You bring out the worst in me Dan. Why can't you just speak politely to us foreigners? Other people seem to be able to do it, why are the English so damned bad at it?

Because the English believe that they are the Herrenvolk.

[Errigal]

Because the English believe that they are the Herrenvolk.

Well I have to say I'm glad I'm not English.

[LordHawHaw]

Well I have to say I'm glad I'm not English.

Me too. Having said that, some of my best friends are English.......

[Dan Dare]

I have no difficulty because I already have. Would you trust someone who has spent most of your life trying to destroy you?

No I certainly wouldn't, but who is that you think has been and is still trying to destroy you? And how have they been going about it?

France and Germany have spent over 800 years trying to invade England? And you call me paranoid?

I didn't actually say that, although the Froggies for one have form going back over a thousand years, with periodic repeat efforts since then. The Germans' more recent efforts came to naught, as I think you are well aware.

I forget to mention Spain and Holland, putative and successful invaders, respectively. We should call for their break-up as well, one can never be too careful.

[Basil Fawlty]

No I certainly wouldn't, but who is that you think has been and is still trying to destroy you? And how have they been going about it. I'd always thought you had some interest in your own history, perhaps you neglected that part which occurred to the west.

[Charlie Robespierre]

First they came for the English,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't English.

Then they came for the Welsh,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't Welsh.

Then they came for the Scots,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Scot.

Then they came for Irish
and there was no one left to speak out for us.

Pastor O'HawHaw.
I rail against Britain's banking oligarchy. I denounce bloodthirsty militarism. That's rendering a service to the English. It's more incidental than intentional I'll admit but it's a service nevertheless. Alas, English political factions are far too bound to the system to heed my call. They prefer to be scandalised by my failure to fall in line with the mythologies of British imperialism!

[harjit]

Meanwhile, the intrepid wog watches and waits. :bandito:

[Dan Dare]

I'd always thought you had some interest in your own history, perhaps you neglected that part which occurred to the west.

No I haven't neglected it. I am reasonably familiar with the history of the English occupation of Ireland (or parts of it) since the 11th century, not that such occupation has been total or even particularly malevolent for much that period, despite the monochromatic and lopsided impression that you wish to project.

But the difference between me and you is that I don't believe that the historical clock stopped in 1922.

That aside, readers will have noted that you have once again declined to respond sensibly to my direct questioning. We still do not understand what grounds exist for your irrational Anglophobia in 2011.

[Kodos]

I forget to mention Spain and Holland, putative and successful invaders, respectively. We should call for their break-up as well, one can never be too careful.

The Dutch were invited as Liberators and the English Fleet let him through, one could argue that the French had a successful invasion during the reign of Edward II (his wife crossed the channel with an army deposed and executed him).

[Dan Dare]

I had intended to note in response to Basil's comments about CCTV (and other surveillance technologies) which are now ubiquitous throughout the UK, many of which originated as a response to the threat of Irish terrorism.

The vehicle numberplate detection system, for example, which is now operational at all English ferry-ports and at undisclosed locations throughout the country but including all motorways, owes its origins to the 'Vengeful' system developed and implemented for the purposes of tracking the movements of suspected terrorists in Northern Ireland.

A number of other systems could also be cited of similar provenance.

Just another legacy of the 'Troubles'.

[Dan Dare]

The Dutch were invited as Liberators and the English Fleet let him through, one could argue that the French had a successful invasion during the reign of Edward II (his wife crossed the channel with an army deposed and executed him).

Kodos, you need to develop a sense for when someone is taking the mickey.

[Kodos]

Kodos, you need to develop a sense for when someone is taking the mickey.

I have it IRL but my sperg sense is not always good for it while reading.

[Basil Fawlty]

I had intended to note in response to Basil's comments about CCTV (and other surveillance technologies) which are now ubiquitous throughout the UK, many of which originated as a response to the threat of Irish terrorism.
Unlikely. There was a very long gap in my visits to Britain - two years ago after a gap of almost 15. The previous visit was post-cease-fire. The glaring profusion of cctv has been subsequent to that.

[Basil Fawlty]

No I haven't neglected it. I am reasonably familiar with the history of the English occupation of Ireland (or parts of it) since the 11th century, not that such occupation has been total or even particularly malevolent for much that period, despite the monochromatic and lopsided impression that you wish to project.Do tell me which part you thin was not malevolent?
But the difference between me and you is that I don't believe that the historical clock stopped in 1922.
A very silly comment without any justification.
That aside, readers will have noted that you have once again declined to respond sensibly to my direct questioning. We still do not understand what grounds exist for your irrational Anglophobia in 2011.That's already been answered.

[Steinbrink]

I mean I have some ideas, but I've been to Belfast and Dublin about 2 years ago, and everywhere you go, there are murals of leftist 3rd world heroes, like Che Guevara, Ken Saro-Wiwa, Malcolm X, Patrice Lumumba, Fidel Castro and Vladimir Lenin.

Irish were colonized people, but so were the Welsh, Basques, Scottish, and Austrians, but there is no where this affinity with them that the Irish have with leftist symbols and Internationalist Nationalism (if that makes sense), and leftist solidarity. there are almost no right-wing groups anywhere in Ireland except for Belfast, and even then, they're allied with the Loyalists and have a political agenda funded by the British state, and the skinheads aren't Irish nationalist as much as they are UK nationalists.

But go to the Republic of Ireland, and you can probably count the number of right-wingers on one hand. why is there such a strong left-wing presence in Ireland?

Another interesting thing: they find themselves in strong solidarity with the 3rd world instead of mainstream Europe. for example, more Irish people are anti-racist, in support of a Palestinian state, and for social welfare and social causes (I think they donate more to charities than anywhere else on earth per capita) than not. they also have some of the most liberal integration and immigration policies in Europe.

so why is this, and not the case with other European nations and peoples?

more evidence to back up what your saying.


http://i51.tinypic.com/2w5lm69.jpg


Pretoria - Steve Hofmeyr has dumped U2 tickets worth R5 000 into the Jukskei River in protest against Bono's comments on the "shoot the farmer" song.

Hofmeyr said in a tweet: "I have just dumped my R5000 worth of U2 tickets in the Jukskei. I'm going home. I can find no context for that song. Sorry&goodbye".

Irishman Bono, who is in South Africa for the band's 360 Degrees tour, has caused a stir in the country by expressing support for the singing of the "shoot the farmer" song.

"I was a kid and I'd sing songs I remember my uncles singing... rebel songs about the early days of the Irish Republican Army," he said, proceeding to sing a song whose lyrics spoke of carrying guns and readying them for action.

"We sang this and it's fair to say it's folk music... as this was the struggle of some people that sang it over some time," he told the Sunday Times.

But the rocker went on to say such songs shouldn't be sung in the wrong context.

"Would you want to sing that in a certain community? It's pretty dumb," he said.

"It's about where and when you sing those songs. There's a rule for that kind of music."

The Johannesburg concert is being held in the FNB Stadium near Soweto.


http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Steve-Hofmery-dumps-U2-tickets-20110213


I think it fairly obvious which side the micks/navvies/potato eaters are on.

[Charlie Robespierre]

Your battery's run out yet Steinplank?

MacBride's Brigade in the Anglo-Boer War (http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume8/issue1/features/?id=228)

At the top of Dublin’s Grafton Street, at the corner of Stephen’s Green, stands a handsome triumphal arch—still referred to by some locals as ‘traitors’ gate’—which commemorates the ‘officers, non-commissioned officers and men’ of the Royal Dublin Fusiliers who fell in the second Anglo-Boer war (1899-1902). One will search Ireland in vain to find a counterpart: a memorial to those Irish soldiers who died fighting in the two Irish commandos in the Boer army. It is a strange omission since at the time ‘pro-Boer fever’ engulfed nationalist Ireland. Pro-Boer demonstrations were held, pro-Boer rioting occurred, the flag of the Transvaal Republic—the vierkleur—was to be seen in Dublin, where for a period there even existed a no-go area at night for forces of the crown.

South Africa had not witnessed mass Irish immigration, nonetheless in the mid-1890s, Dublin Castle officials began to notice that numbers of advanced Irish nationalists were making for the unsettled South African, or Transvaal, Republic. These included Celtic Literary Society members John MacBride and Arthur Griffith. By 1896 there were about 1,000 Irish living in the mining settlement of Johannesburg as well as others in Pretoria and in more far-flung dorps, such as Middelburg where Griffith edited the precursor to the United Irishman. Unlike the English uitlanders, these Irish settlers supported Kruger’s regime and in turn when a 1798 celebration was held in Johannesburg—an event which eclipsed that in Dublin—Afrikaners were prominent at the march and banquet.

Organisation of the Irish commando

For reasons unclear, Griffith returned to Dublin in October 1898, but there were more new arrivals in the Transvaal from Ireland by the day. When it became clear that the South African Republic would go to war with Britain, clandestine Irish meetings were held in John Mitchell’s clothes cleaning shop in Johannesburg and by September 1899, with the help of a shadowy South African-Irishman named Solomon Gillingham, a proposal for a 700-strong Irish Transvaal Brigade was accepted by the Boer government. This was one of a handful of foreign commandos raised to support the Transvaal and its sister republic, the Orange Free State. ‘Foxy Jack’ MacBride from Mayo declined the command so instead the Irish lads turned to a colourful American called John Blake. Tall and broad-shouldered, he looked like Buffalo Bill and had spent many years in the 6th US cavalry in the wild west fighting the Apache and the Navaho.

In all, some 300 men joined the Irish brigade, including a Catholic chaplain, some Gaelic speakers and about forty Protestants. There were two sets of fathers and sons. Only a few men, however, had fighting experience. Little if any thought was given to the prospect of joining a Calvinist army and, as in Ireland, the plight of the black population was not an issue; hatred of the English and the prospect of the rebirth of the wild geese was the simple rationale. Despite the attraction of the new brigade, some Irish, in the words of the Irish pro-Boer campaigner Michael Davitt, ‘have the good sense to remain with their Boer officers’. These Irishmen were to be found in at least six other Boer commandos.

On 6 October 1899 the Irish Transvaal Brigade mobilised and boarded trains for the Transvaal-Natal frontier. Issued at first with single-shot Martini rifles, soon most of the Irish commando had acquired captured Lee Enfield and Lee Metford rifles. They were also issued with horses and had to spend several painful days on the highveld learning to ride. On Wednesday 11 October, in a severe thunderstorm, the brigade crossed into British territory. Ahead lay the colony of Natal with its Irish governor, its Irish prime minister and several Irish regiments of the British army.

The siege of Ladysmith

The Irish commando was in the van of the Boer army when the town of Newcastle was occupied and looted. The dividing line between commandeering and looting is fine and the Irish corps were sometimes accused of crossing it. Perhaps because of this they were initially assigned to accompany and guard one of the great French Creusot fortress guns, or ‘Long Toms’, of Commandant Trichardt’s Transvaal State Artillery.
At the battle of Talana Hill on 20 October 1899 the Irish commando played a small part and it was here they first came up against Irish regiments. Throughout the war great animosity existed between the Irish who opposed each other from either side. Soon the Irish commando was ensconced on Pepworth Hill overlooking the besieged garrison town of Ladysmith, where there were members of the Irish Fusiliers, the Irish Regiment, the 5th Royal Irish Lancers and some of the Dublin Fusiliers, all of whom were very eager to get their hands on the ‘flying Fenians’ of MacBride’s Brigade.

John MacBride (leaning against the post) and Arthur Griffith (standing) in the Transvaal Republic, c. early 1898. (Brian Mooney)

At the battle of Modderspruit the Irish commando lost several men, including the eighteen-year-old Tommy Oates from Killarney, whose father was also in the unit. ‘To get my guns, the English will have to kill my Irish troops’, proclaimed Trichardt. And he was correct. The Irish commando protected the guns on Pepworth Hill, but also indulged in some fairly foolhardy horse-rustling activities on the British perimeter. Some of the brigade’s members also fought opposite the Dublin Fusiliers at the battle of Colenso on 15 December. Here MacBride had his horse shot from under him, but the major survived. The Irish were among the first to cross the Tugela River and capture Captain Long’s field-artillery pieces.
That Christmas Day 1899, under the flag sent out by Maud Gonne and the Dublin-based Irish Transvaal Committee, the Irish held a horse race behind Pepworth Hill and then a banquet was laid on for Commandant General Joubert and many Boer officers and their wives. The event was, however, ‘painfully dry’.
Irish commando members fought in the battles of Spion Kop and Vaal Krantz, as well as in the final battle of Tugela Heights when Buller’s army, with its 5th (Irish) Brigade, broke through and relieved Antrim-born General Sir George White in Ladysmith. The Irish commando fought well and indeed for a while in the driving rain held the road to the north against Lord Dundonald’s cavalry, allowing the Boers to bring up their oxen to drag out the artillery. Soon the Irish lads were safe, but bored, in the mountains of the nearby Biggarsberg.

Rivalry and reinforcements

There had also been a certain amount of dissension in Irish ranks. This was not helped by the Boer army’s democratic structure and cavalier attitude to military discipline. As the months progressed, disunity spread in Irish ranks. Colonel Blake became more distant from the unit and Major MacBride, his number two, increasingly became the de facto leader. But MacBride had enemies and when news reached camp that a second and rival Irish Transvaal Brigade was being formed in Johannesburg by a newly arrived Irish-Australian called Arthur Lynch, some members of the original Irish commando went over to the new unit. This was at most 150-strong and soon only about fifty in number. It was denounced by one member of MacBride’s outfit as ‘fifty or sixty soreheads, greasers, half-breeds and dagos...a gang of hobos’. It is as well they did not fight alongside each other.
The second Irish Transvaal Brigade was posted to the Helpmekaar Pass on the Biggarsberg where they fought well during the Boer retreat up to Laing’s Nek on the Natal border. MacBride and Blake took their unit to Johannesburg, where they were joined by fifty-eight members of an Irish-American ‘ambulance corps’ from Chicago and New York. Though there were seven American doctors among them, the rest of the men under Captain O’Connor flagrantly used their Red Cross accreditation to get out of America to Africa to fight for the Boers. The new combined Irish force now moved to the front line in the Orange Free State. Here they faced Lord Roberts’ army of 45,000 men.

The Irish Transvaal Brigade in the field, complete with flag sent from Ireland by Maud Gonne and the Irish Transvaal Committee. ‘Mind the flag', were some of the last words of John MacBride before his execution in 1916. (Priem, De Oorlog in Zuid Afrika [1900])


Report in the pro-Boer Standard and Digger's News, 19 March 1899.

A cat-and-mouse game with the British cavalry began—with the Irish as the mouse. Some of MacBride’s men were formed into a ‘dynamite squad’ or ‘wreckers’ corps’, blowing up railway bridges and facilities as the Boer army retreated. This, done with their daredevil tactics, made the Irish very valuable to the Boers. But the British advance was not halted and on 23 May 1900 the Irish brigade crossed the Vaal River and entered the Transvaal.

Retreat and ‘bitter end’

Lynch’s commando survived only a couple of months and by the time the British army was south of Johannesburg, it had disintegrated and Lynch was thinking of clearing out of South Africa. Johannesburg had been the home of many of the Irish gold miners in the two commandos and some were reluctant to leave, preferring to disappear into the side streets of the Fordsburg suburb. Others, however, were determined not to vacate the town without a struggle and one of the fiercest fire fights was in Orange Grove as the British army pressed the retreating Irish from street to street. Just after this, Lynch and MacBride came upon each other—both covered in dust, exhausted and battle weary. They exchanged greetings and parted forever.
Soon Colonel Blake had to vacate his comfortable surroundings in Pretoria’s Grand Hotel. The retreat across the eastern Transvaal highveld had begun. Before long Blake had left the Irish commando altogether to fight elsewhere and for the last two months of its existence, MacBride was in sole command.
Back in Ireland, of course, it had always been ‘MacBride’s Brigade’ in any case. A campaign there against recruitment to the British army met with some success. Then Maud Gonne had involved herself in intrigues with the Boer representative in Europe, unaware that he was already in cahoots with the IRB. The visit to Ireland in April 1900 of Queen Victoria had for a while dampened the Irish pro-Boer cause, but by mid-summer the Boer colours were to be seen all over Dublin. Also by then reports of Michael Davitt’s much-publicised visit to the Boer front lines had appeared in the Freeman’s Journal.
Back in the eastern Transvaal the Irish brigaders were suffering. Food was short, as were horses and clothes. Tempers frayed. There were those with horses under Major MacBride and Captain McCallum and there were the ‘foot sloggers’ under Captain O’Connor and Lieutenant Ryan. MacBride was in overall command. The Irish fought at the battles of Diamond Hill on 12 June and Dalmanutha on 27 August, but most of the time they harassed the British advance, most notably when they held the town of Belfast for several hours under heavy fire. But the game was up and by mid-September 1900 MacBride could hardly control his men as they moved over the great escarpment and down into the hot and humid lowveld. But still they fought on, now under the overall command of General Viljoen. Finally on Sunday, 23 September 1900, they reached Komatipoort and the Mozambique border. With testimonials from State Secretary Reitz and General Botha in his pocket, Major MacBride said farewell to his horse, Fenian Boy, and, with what was left of his brigade, boarded a train which clattered across the great iron bridge over the Komati River and into Portuguese territory.

MacBride's Brigade at their camp outside Ladysmith. (Davitt, The Boer Fight for Freedom [1902])

But not all the Irish brigaders had left. Blake and some of the lads remained and for the next eighteen months these Irish ‘bitter-enders’ harassed the British army along the line of the Pretoria-Delagoa railway line through the Transvaal, on one occasion, 7 January 1901, defeating a unit of the Royal Irish Regiment at Monument Hill.

Echoes

When peace came in May 1902, most of the Irish had little choice but to make their way to Europe or America, where MacBride’s men had preceded them. In 1901 Lynch had got himself elected to an Irish seat in parliament, something MacBride had not achieved; but returning from Paris to England, he had been arrested, tried and convicted of high treason. Unlike MacBride and his men, Lynch had taken out Transvaal citizenship only after war had broken out, thus laying himself open to this treason charge. But lucky as ever, and much to the regret of many of MacBride’s men, Lynch escaped the hangman’s noose and was eventually pardoned.
The Irish had fought well in the war. Accusations that they were more fond of the bottle than the battle are false: they were fond of both. We know the names of ninety-one casualties in the Irish commandos, thirty-one of whom were killed, twenty-three wounded and twenty-seven made prisoners-of-war. Compared with the 4,452 casualties in the war from Irish regiments this is insignificant, but it was the activities of ‘MacBride’s Brigade’ which had caused excitement in Ireland.

Back home nationalist Ireland was engulfed by pro-Boer fever-an anti-war demonstration (complete with Boer flag) outside Trinity College, Dublin. (Le Petit Journal, 31 December 1899)

The publication of Blake’s war memoir, Davitt’s The Boer Fight for Freedom, and later of a series of thirteen articles by MacBride in the Freeman’s Journal kept this memory alive. So, too, did the 1903 Paris wedding of MacBride and Maud Gonne, who were married under the brigade’s flag by the brigade’s chaplain. Reports of a son born in the Transvaal to MacBride would emerge only eighty years later.
In Dublin, 1899 was a dry run for 1916. When the rising finally came, though, MacBride stumbled on it by accident—but was soon once again number two in a fighting unit. Elsewhere in the city other former Irish Transvaal brigaders also fought the English again. When the British army was mopping up after the insurrection, they found rifles with Boer carvings on their butts. Shortly before Major MacBride was executed by firing squad in Kilmainham, he is reported to have said: ‘I have looked down the muzzles of too many guns in the South African war to fear death, and now please carry out your sentence’.

Donal McCracken is Dean of Arts and Professor of History at the University of Durban-Westville.


Further reading:

D.P. McCracken, MacBride’s Brigade (Dublin 1999).

D.P. McCracken, The Irish pro-Boers, 1877-1902 (Johannesburg 1989).

S. Monick, Shamrock and Springbok (Johannesburg 1989).

[Steinbrink]

At the top of Dublin’s Grafton Street, at the corner of Stephen’s Green, stands a handsome triumphal arch—still referred to by some locals as ‘traitors’ gate’—which commemorates the ‘officers, non-commissioned officers and men’ of the Royal Dublin Fusiliers who fell in the second Anglo-Boer war (1899-1902). One will search Ireland in vain to find a counterpart: a memorial to those Irish soldiers who died fighting in the two Irish commandos in the Boer army. It is a strange omission since at the time ‘pro-Boer fever’ engulfed nationalist Ireland. Pro-Boer demonstrations were held, pro-Boer rioting occurred, the flag of the Transvaal Republic—the vierkleur—was to be seen in Dublin, where for a period there even existed a no-go area at night for forces of the crown.

.....

Yes, Interesting to see them fighting against Brits.

Dosn't change my mind on the IRA being nothing but a Red op though.

[Basil Fawlty]

Yes, Interesting to see them fighting against Brits.

Dosn't change my mind on the IRA being nothing but a Red op though.Who cares what goes on in the brain of a troll?

[Dan Dare]

...That's already been answered.

Yes we're all well aware by now of your 850 years of oppression and pain but that all stopped in 1922, to the extent it actually happening for ordinary Irishmen as opposed to Fenian fanatics and their American puppetmasters.

What have the Brits being doing to destroy you since then? If you can't or won't answer the question properly we are entitled to assume it's a simply a product of your febrile imagination feeding your victim complex.

[Basil Fawlty]

Yes we're all well aware by now of your 850 years of oppression and pain but that all stopped in 1922,Tell that to the people in the north.
What have the Brits being doing to destroy you since then? If you can't or won't answer the question properly we are entitled to assume it's a simply a product of your febrile imagination feeding your victim complex.There's simply no way we can trust you based on experience and given that another intrusion always remains a possibility. Based on your attitude alone deep mistrust should be the default position of the Irish towards you lot. Btw, any chance of returning the bullion you lot stole in 1922?

[Jake Featherston]

I think it fairly obvious which side the micks/navvies/potato eaters are on.

I think its fairly obvious which side the dominant majority of Whites in Western Europe and North America are on as well.

[Errigal]

Yes we're all well aware by now of your 850 years of oppression and pain but that all stopped in 1922, to the extent it actually happening for ordinary Irishmen as opposed to Fenian fanatics and their American puppetmasters.

American puppet-masters and Fenian fanatics? Jesus. And you say you're not posting in character? Give me a break.

Do you want to know something funny Dan? Your new avatar pic showing Colonel Blimp reminds me how much my father couldn't stand that film, The Life And Death of Colonel Blimp because he rightly felt it was made by liberal smart-asses who were taking shots at our type, our crowd.


What have the Brits being doing to destroy you since then? If you can't or won't answer the question properly we are entitled to assume it's a simply a product of your febrile imagination feeding your victim complex.

I think it would be safe to say a whole new bunch of hard feelings were created from the late 1960s until the Good Friday Agreement. I think that's a pretty neutral and obvious statement.

[Errigal]

The Colonel Blimp film is online. A person could right an article or start a thread on the BS packed into that piece of work. It's propaganda for women and kids at home during the war I guess. Pub historians likely consider it a valuable historical document in the same way Jeremy Clarkson considers being able to quote Monty Python from memory to be the sign of a well rounded modern gentleman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXNNAtNsVec&feature=related

Edit:
This Colonel Blimp movie is worth watching just to see some high quality wartime dishonesty and propaganda. I'm just about 16 minutes in and the main character is taking about the "lies being spread in Germany about us killing Boer women and children in concentration camps". Unfortunately that was true.

[Dan Dare]

This Colonel Blimp movie is worth watching just to see some high quality wartime dishonesty and propaganda. I'm just about 16 minutes in and the main character is taking about the "lies being spread in Germany about us killing Boer women and children in concentration camps". Unfortunately that was true.

That must be why Churchill called (unsuccessfully) for it be banned.

But I should have thought that a dedicated Anglo-watcher like your goodself would have been aware that the Col. Blimp in my avatar has nothing to do with the film that you seem to have recently discovered.

[Felix the Cat]

This film was very popular in Europe at the time it was made:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm_Krüger

Interestingly, the article also mentions several pro-Irish movies produced by the Germans at this time.

[Errigal]

This film was very popular in Europe at the time it was made:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm_Krüger

Interestingly, the article also mentions several pro-Irish movies produced by the Germans at this time.

This is the key political point of the film. It is delivered by the exiled anti-Nazi German officer:

yaOq3iya5a4#t=1m17s
Start at about 1:17 into that clip.

The "Colonel Blimp" character, the General, is told the old rules of fair play, chivalry etc must go.

The cartoon was targeted at the type of retired military men who didn't like the idea of repeating WW1 I suppose and were therefore an obstacle to the Churchill faction:

http://www.sadiethepilot.com/aaweb/blogpix/low2_s.jpg
http://airforceamazons.blogspot.com/2008/05/while-sun-shines.html

[Thomas_Sankara]

These are different times. The future of European man is at stake. Are we to continually dredge up the past while these same elites laugh? Scotland suffered under the English also. So what? We live in the now.

Why is it that it's always "get over it" or "past is the past" whenever it comes to what England has done to Ireland? Colonization continues to this day, and when I was there, I can promise you the last thing people were thinking was "past is the past".

Irregardless on my beliefs about the "wogs at hollyhead", I know for certain that the Irish have been continuously colonized for the better part of 1000 years, and to use that as an excuse as to why Irish should forget so many years of oppression, is just ludicrous.

[harjit]

I think its fairly obvious which side the dominant majority of Whites in Western Europe and North America are on as well.
The average person isn't Bono-esque.

[LordHawHaw]

Why is it that it's always "get over it" or "past is the past" whenever it comes to what England has done to Ireland? Colonization continues to this day, and when I was there, I can promise you the last thing people were thinking was "past is the past".

Irregardless on my beliefs about the "wogs at hollyhead", I know for certain that the Irish have been continuously colonized for the better part of 1000 years, and to use that as an excuse as to why Irish should forget so many years of oppression, is just ludicrous.

Actually my bourgeois friend, my grandmother is Irish and, unlike you, I've lived in Ireland. Don't tell me about Ireland from your safe American home. I know far more than you ever will on the subject.

[Felix the Cat]

Sankara, who is the man in your avatar?

[Felix the Cat]

Interestingly, the article also mentions several pro-Irish movies produced by the Germans at this time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Leben_für_Irland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_fox_of_Glenarvon

The first is viewable here:

KcepK-MPFH8

The incompleteness of the Goebbels diaries is regrettable. I would like to know what he had to say about this.

[Jake Featherston]

Sankara, who is the man in your avatar?

Its gotta be an actor.

[Felix the Cat]

The Kruger film is also on YT

OYFnx-RsGdw

[Felix the Cat]

This is interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Leben_für_IrlandSome German viewers in ethnically mixed areas expressed fears that it would stimulate Poles to rebellion.

[Felix the Cat]

It isn't, but holding irrational fears based upon nothing is particular certainly is. By your reckoning, the English should be unconcerned about the predicament of the Germans, or the French, and be hoping that those countries become internally fragmented. Just how silly would that be? Ireland:Britain::Britain:Europe

[Thomas_Sankara]

Sankara, who is the man in your avatar?

It's Ronnie Drew, the late lead singer from the Irish band "The Dubliners". They sing a mix of traditional Irish folk songs, and Socialist hymns against things like segregation, income inequality, Unionism, etc.

[Errigal]

It's Ronnie Drew, the late lead singer from the Irish band "The Dubliners". They sing a mix of traditional Irish folk songs, and Socialist hymns against things like segregation, income inequality, Unionism, etc.

http://www.thephora.net/forum/customavatars/avatar5554_12.gif

Did that guy ever look healthy a day in is life?

[Thomas_Sankara]

http://www.thephora.net/forum/customavatars/avatar5554_12.gif

Did that guy ever look healthy a day in is life?

Unfortunately, no, none of the band members were very healthy, and they all had problems with alcoholism. Ronnie Drew died of throat cancer from years of chainsmoking and his health was already poor due to alcohol abuse, and Luke Kelly committed suicide due to rampant alcoholism and depression on his part. They're a great band though, none else like them.

[Felix the Cat]

Reverse psychology: It may be more profitable for opponents of mass immigration to Ireland to promote the idea that this is a British policy which serves British interests, and that if these people become too numerous they may one day appeal to Britain to "protect" them, as the Kosovo Albanians did in 1999.

[Rosarium]

[. . .] and Luke Kelly committed suicide due to rampant alcoholism and depression on his part.

Luke Kelly died of a brain tumour, Bobby Lynch committed suicide.

[Thomas_Sankara]

Luke Kelly died of a brain tumour, Bobby Lynch committed suicide.

oh my bad. I could've swore Luke Kelly killed himself. I guess I was wrong.