Intelligent soldiers more likely to die

[Ahknaton]

Do the thick die quick?

WORLD OF SCIENCE - BOB BROCKIE
The Dominion Post | Monday, 01 December 2008

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4778584a1861.html

Scots psychologist Ian Deary claims that clever people live longer than thickheads.

Sure, some bright people die young and many thickheads live into old age but if you measure a large bunch of people the statistics point that way.

Dr Deary and his team looked at more than 2000 Scottish children given IQ tests in 1932 when they were 11 years old. He traced most of these people again in 1997 and found that those still living at age 76 had average IQs of 102 but those who had died had average IQs of 98.

Dr Deary says more evidence comes from IQ tests on large numbers of young men recruited into the Australian Army at the time of the Vietnam War and nearly a million 19-year-olds inducted into the Swedish Army.

Twenty years after the tests, those who had died in the meantime had lower average IQs than those who remained alive.

Several other surveys point in the same direction.

Some critics find Dr Deary's claims insulting. "So, you're saying that the thick die quick?" "Anyway", they challenge, "haven't IQ tests been discredited"?

"Well, no," says Dr Deary. IQ tests have a predictive value unequalled in psychology. Hundreds of data sets since 1904 show that IQ remains almost unchanged over a lifetime, can predict educational achievement, occupational success, propensity to sickness and age of death with some confidence. It's a better predictor of life expectancy than body mass index, total cholesterol, blood pressure or blood glucose.

But why IQ should be a good predictor of life expectancy remains a mystery.

Some epidemiologists suggest that intelligent people get the easy jobs, leaving the heavier, dangerous, life-threatening work to dumber people.

Or, they suggest, most people with high IQs behave better. In early life people with higher IQs are more likely to have better diets, do more exercise, avoid accidents, give up smoking, do less binge drinking and put on less weight in adulthood.

But Dr Dreary has checked all that stuff, and finds it does not wash.

Rather, he thinks, intelligence causes the association between education, social class and health.

He favours the theory that IQ tests in youth reveal a well-wired body better able to respond effectively to environmental insults.

Some supporting evidence comes from the finding that simple reaction speed – the time taken to press a button when a stimulus appears – can replace IQ test scores as an even better predictor of an earlier death. Reaction-time tasks don't demand complex reasoning, so are unlikely to improve by education.

Dr Deary hopes his findings will explain the connection between childhood IQ, sickness and earlier deaths and help to tackle problems of health inequalities. In Christchurch, David Fergusson leads a team studying the behaviour and fates of 1265 children born there in 1977. He has already shown that those with higher IQs did better at school.

If his study continues long enough, it may throw light on the connection between IQ and life expectancy of Christchurch kids.

[New Scientist]

I've noticed that the less intelligent tend to age quicker just in watching people i knew from school age. Also If you watch vids of the scientists at the beyond belief and Ted talks, they are hard to pin down age wise by a decade often.

High IQ may be modulated by human neoteny patterns linked to alteration in hormones, that is slowed maturation allows for longer lifespan. That is a lamarckian explanation that ties together with what we know about orientals and ashkenazi jews who accelerate IQ more quickly than usual..but Dunno not really my area :hm:

[Felix the Cat]

Intelligent soldiers would tend to become NCOs, and if WWII was similar to WWI officers would have had a higher chance of being killed than ordinary soldiers

[Kodos]

Intelligent soldiers would tend to become NCOs, and if WWII was similar to WWI officers would have had a higher chance of being killed than ordinary soldiers

I think in WWI (not WWII) I would have "accidently" have shot myself in the foot at some point...

Especially if I was to participate in some kind of offensive planned by Hague.

[Felix the Cat]

Why are you picking on Haig? Look up Nivelle or Falkenhayn.

All sides had awful commanders in that war.

[Kodos]

Why are you picking on Haig? Look up Nivelle or Falkenhayn.

All sides had awful commanders in that war.

I found out he still has defenders, despite the order to walk to the enemy trenches... and something he wrote before he died (after the war) that the "well bred horse" still has as great a place in the wars of the future as ever.

The man never should have been a corporal even.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Nivelle

He sounds a helluva lot smarter then Haig, at least he understood something of the importance of artillery and supported further development of the tank.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkenhayn

Sounds like an idiot but still not the kind of monstrously incompetent idiot that "walk in line" Haig was.

[Basil Fawlty]

Apparently Haig had a special relationship with God, not unlike Cromwell, another self-righteous butcher.

[Kodos]

Apparently Haig had a special relationship with God, not unlike Cromwell, another self-righteous butcher.

Whatever you can say about Cromwell it can't be argued that he was a bad general...

[Basil Fawlty]

Whatever you can say about Cromwell it can't be argued that he was a bad general...That's true, but what good is that to him?

[OVERWATCH]

Here in the US our least intelligent racial group, blacks, are disproportionately represented in noncombat support units, while other, more intelligent racial groups (whites, asians, hispanics) tend to make up the combat arm.

[Insert witty user name here]

Source (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16297)

Being dumb has its benefits. Scottish soldiers who survived the second world war were less intelligent than men who gave their lives defeating the Third Reich, a new study of British government records concludes.

The 491 Scots who died and had taken IQ tests at age 11 achieved an average IQ score of 100.8. Several thousand survivors who had taken the same test - which was administered to all Scottish children born in 1921 – averaged 97.4.


Abstract
The Scottish Mental Survey of 1932 (SMS1932) provides a record of intelligence test scores for almost a complete year-of-birth group of children born in 1921. By linking UK Army personnel records, the Scottish National War Memorial data, and the SMS1932 dataset it was possible to examine the effect of childhood intelligence scores on wartime military service mortality in males. There were 491 matches between World War II (WWII) Scottish Army fatalities and the SMS1932 database; 470 (96%) had an age 11 mental ability score recorded. The mean (S.D.) age 11 IQ score of those who died on active service in WWII was 100.78 (15.56), compared with 97.42 (14.87) for male Army survivors (p < 0.0001; Cohen's d = 0.22). Men who took part in the SMS1932 and who were not found in the Army database had a higher mean score (100.45, S.D. =14.97) than those men who had been in the Army, regardless of whether they died or survived (mean IQ = 97.66, S.D. = 14.94; p < 0.0001; Cohen's d = 0.19). Male soldiers with a higher childhood IQ had a slightly increased risk of dying during active service in WWII. Men who did not join the Army had a higher IQ than men who did. Further research in this area should consider naval and air force personnel records in order to examine more fully the complex relationship between IQ and survival expectancy during active service in WWII.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6W4M-4V38XRW-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=4ad85aa4699ea0f6df8b3348e6b92912

[Impérialiste]

Here in the US our least intelligent racial group, blacks, are disproportionately represented in noncombat support units, while other, more intelligent racial groups (whites, asians, hispanics) tend to make up the combat arm.

A military officer told me one needs a high ASVAB score to get in infantry; it requires a lot of brain work. This study isn't surprising.

[Petyr Baelish]

Looks like the long and wide-held perception that centuries of fratricidal warfare have had a dysgenic cumulative effect upon European societies which may partly explain Europe's recent geopolitical decline is receiving empirical confirmation..


...
Scottish soldiers who survived the second world war were less intelligent than men who gave their lives defeating the Third Reich, a new study of British government records concludes.

The 491 Scots who died and had taken IQ tests at age 11 achieved an average IQ score of 100.8. Several thousand survivors who had taken the same test - which was administered to all Scottish children born in 1921 – averaged 97.4.

The unprecedented demands of the second world war – fought more with brains than with brawn compared with previous wars - might account for the skew, says Ian Deary, a psychologist at the University of Edinburgh, who led the study. Dozens of other studies have shown that smart people normally live longer than their less intelligent peers.

“We wonder whether more skilled men were required at the front line, as warfare became more technical,” [Deary] says.
...

Full Article (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16297)

[Kleinbonum]

I don't think I can buy into the broader generalization implied here from just a correlation between IQ and death rate amongst Scottish soldiers - a relative handful compared to all those who served during WWII. Clearly, a more representative sample is required. Also, this seems quite counter-intuitive given the comparatively low casualty rates amongst special forces where intelligence is much higher than amongst conventional forces.

[Felix the Cat]

Older threads on this:

http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=45175
http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=45685

[Vessper]

Is the difference that big?

[Cindy Brown]

Intelligent people are more likely to die in wars fought for intelligent causes.

Dumb people are more likely to die in wars fought for stupid causes.

[Warka]

Dumb people are more likely to die in wars fought for stupid causes.

Are you posting from Iraq or Afghanistan then?

[Ixtab]

Intelligent soldiers most likely to die in battle

Being dumb has its benefits. Scottish soldiers who survived the second world war were less intelligent than men who gave their lives defeating the Third Reich, a new study of British government records concludes.

The 491 Scots who died and had taken IQ tests at age 11 achieved an average IQ score of 100.8. Several thousand survivors who had taken the same test - which was administered to all Scottish children born in 1921 – averaged 97.4.

The unprecedented demands of the second world war – fought more with brains than with brawn compared with previous wars - might account for the skew, says Ian Deary, a psychologist at the University of Edinburgh, who led the study. Dozens of other studies have shown that smart people normally live longer than their less intelligent peers.

"We wonder whether more skilled men were required at the front line, as warfare became more technical," Dear says.

His team's study melds records from Scottish army units with results of national tests performed by all 11-year-olds in 1932. The tests assessed verbal reasoning, mathematics and spatial skills.

"No other country has ever done such a whole-population test of the mental ability of its population," Deary says. Other studies have found that childhood IQs accurately predict intelligence later in life.

A previous study found a fall in intelligence among Scottish men after the war, and at the time Deary's team theorised that less intelligent men were more likely to be rejected for military service. The new study appears to refute that suggestion. Men who didn't serve were more intelligent than surviving veterans, and of equal intelligence to those who died.

Analysing their data by rank offers some insight. Low-ranking soldiers accounted for three-fifths of all deaths, and their IQs measured by their childhood tests averaged 95.3. Officers and non-commissioned officers made up for about 7% and 20% of war deaths respectively. Officers scored 121.9, bringing up the average IQ for those who died. Non-commissioned officers scored an average of 106.7.

"We also wondered whether there was an overall small tendency for more intelligent soldiers to want to do the job well, perhaps meaning they ended up in more threatening situations," Deary says.

Phil Batterham, an epidemiologist at Australian National University in Canberra, wonders what aspects of intelligence made soldiers more likely to die in the war. "One could hypothesise that the association between greater intelligence and higher war-related mortality might be driven by the more crystallised verbal abilities, leading to greater leadership roles," as opposed to other forms of intelligence, he says.

Journal reference: Intelligence (DOI: 10.1016/j.intell.2008.11.003)
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16297-intelligent-soldiers-most-likely-to-die-in-battle.html

[Errigal]

Sadly this is quite believable. The best soldiers are the ones who get killed it seems from anecdotal evidence I've heard and read. Another reason why war is a bad idea.

[Nikolai]

Unintelligent individuals (such as negros and the lower races) can easily tap into their primal, animal instincts that allows them to be ideal soldiers, while intelligent individuals take more of a rational approach, which isn't always a wise decision in a chaotic battle situation.

[Errigal]

Unintelligent individuals (such as negros and the lower races) can easily tap into their primal, animal instincts that allows them to be ideal soldiers, while intelligent individuals take more of a rational approach, which isn't always a wise decision in a chaotic battle situation.

No I think the reason for more intelligent soldiers and officers being killed is that they end up taking the initiative while their dumber comrades are overwhelmed and just hunker down.

[Flying Drumhead Court-Martial]

Also, in the British army in WWII, as well as the German army, it was an honor to be in front line units. The best people wanted to be in the best units.

[Errigal]

The problem is it's the more cowardly, sickly, selfish and unpatriotic who crawl out of the rubble at the end of the war and get to make laws, write textbooks and edit newspapers. The patriotic men of their generation are dead or disillusioned, politically untouchable or would rather just have a quiet life.

[LordHawHaw]

Also, in the British army in WWII, as well as the German army, it was an honor to be in front line units. The best people wanted to be in the best units.
Exactly. The Wehrmacht and British Army were the place for many of the best of the best.

[LordHawHaw]

And yet the elite SS were not allowed on the front lines. Hitler made it quite clear that if people have to die in war it should be the idiots.

Er what? The WAFFEN SS were most certainly on the Hauptkampflinie after 1942. The Waffen-SS Divisions sustained quite heavy losses.

[Stoic_Cynic]

Er what? The WAFFEN SS were most certainly on the Hauptkampflinie after 1942. The Waffen-SS Divisions sustained quite heavy losses.More than American casualties in Europe and the Pacific put together, if I recall correctly...

[Felix the Cat]

Someone should merge these

45685
45175
50323

[Flying Drumhead Court-Martial]

Firstly, I said Schutzstaffel, or "elite SS" as I paraphrased, not the Waffen-SS, which is a different group entirely. I also didn't mention the Allgemeine-SS, the Germanic-SS, or the Auxiliary-SS.

Secondly, have you read Mein Kampf? It clearly states that war should be used for population reduction and that the least fit should serve on the front lines, that way when the war is won a fitter population is left to pass on their genes.

And thirdly, yes, I know they took heavy losses, but since Germany lost this is to be expected.


Where does it say that in Mein Kampf? That's certainly not how it played out. The Waffen-SS, certainly the first three divisions, were considered Germany's racial elite, the cream of the crop. The only people Hitler kept from the front lines were artists.

[Dances with Wolves]

Firstly, I said Schutzstaffel, or "elite SS" as I paraphrased, not the Waffen-SS, which is a different group entirely. I also didn't mention the Allgemeine-SS, the Germanic-SS, or the Auxiliary-SS.

Secondly, have you read Mein Kampf? It clearly states that war should be used for population reduction and that the least fit should serve on the front lines, that way when the war is won a fitter population is left to pass on their genes.

And thirdly, yes, I know they took heavy losses, but since Germany lost this is to be expected.

I must have missed that part, Delos. Do you have the vol/chapter I should look for? what should I search on in a searchable edition? Not doubting you, just want to read it for myself.

[Felix the Cat]

And thirdly, yes, I know they took heavy losses, but since Germany lost this is to be expected.
The SS (all combat branches) took heavier casualties than regular soldiers, and this was intentional. It was to be expected of elite formations that always led attacks.

I believe Himmler envisioned a legal system of polygamy for SS men to compensate for this. I don't know if this was ever implemented.

(It's interesting to compare this to the French system of Napoleon, which kept the elite soldiers as a reserve that was rarely committed to battle.)

[Dan Dare]

The SS (all combat branches) took heavier casualties than regular soldiers, and this was intentional. It was to be expected of elite formations that always led attacks.

I believe Himmler envisioned a legal system of polygamy for SS men to compensate for this. I don't know if this was ever implemented.

I'm uncertain about official support for polygamy as such, but there is little question that the SS encouraged its members to procreate to the maximum extent possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensborn

[Flying Drumhead Court-Martial]

In the third appendix to Hitler's Table Talk, it brings up polygamy. Apparently Hitler was inspired by polygamy in the aftermath of the 30 Years War in increasing the German population, and he wanted something similar after WWII was over.

[New Scientist]

The less intelligent probably have to work in the sun more and so the telomeres in their DNA break down faster than those who work in an office building (because UV cannot pass through glass*).

Also, there is the theory of the Grandmother Hypothesis which says that the longer a child has a grandmother to look after them the better off they will be. If a child has the genes for longevity then then they got it from their grandparents, who also will live to a ripe old age, helping the child to survive, allowing the child to pass on their genes to the next generation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmother_hypothesis


* This is also why truck drivers usually have one arm which is more tanned than the other!

An old thread revived.. !

Italians seem to look well and young even though they get a lot of sun. It looks like there are a lot of factors (many which interact) why the less intelligent due younger, that would require some kind of minor thesis activity to figure out.