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Znanstveni kutak Genetika, antropologija, psihologija, biologija, ekonomija, tehnologija, oružje, okultno... Neka se zna da smo i pametni.

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  #1  
Old 11-24-2005, 10:16 PM
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Default Haplogroup frequency correlations in Southeastern Europe

I have decided to investigate the correlations between haplogroup frequencies in southeastern Europe and some neighboring populations. Currently, I have collected frequency data for the main haplogroups found in the region (E3b, J2, I, R1a, R1b) for 16 populations. Most 3-letter codes should be recognizable, but KAL=Kosovo Albanians, SMA=Slav Macedonians, CAL=Calabrians. I should also note that the frequency of haplogroup I in Bulgarians is interpolated from frequencies in Romanians, Greeks, Slav Macedonians and Serbians, as it was missing in the original article. Conclusions about Bulgarians are especially weak, due to this reason, and also the small original sample (N=24).

I began by calculating the correlation matrix in my sample.



A few features strike the eye:

-The negative correlation between haplogroup R1 and haplogroups E3b, J2, and R1b
-The negative correlation between haplogroup I and haplogroups J2 and R1b
-The positive correlation between haplogroup J2 and haplogroup R1b
-The absence of a substantial correlation between "Neolithic" haplogroups J2 and E3b

As the next analysis will make clear, variation is explained by the presence of two main groupings: a "continental" group comprising of Slavic speakers and a "coastal" group comprising of all others.

The absence of a correlation between J2 and E3b is significant, because it hints that these haplogroups did not diffuse as a result of a single process. The eastern-most populations of our sample, but also the two Italian populations show a higher J2/E3b ratio compared to the "continental" populations.

The second analysis is a dendrogram using Euclidean distance of the normalized haplogroup frequencies. As is apparent, this way of representing the frequency data results in a separation of the two main clusters.



Finally, a principal components analysis is shown in the following plot. The first two components summarize about 77% of the variance.



We observe the two main "contrasts" in the data between "coastal" J2/R1b and "continental" I1b and between "Neolithic" E3b and "Slavic" R1a (*)

Several conclusions can be drawn.

-The spread of the Neolithic economy into continental Europe involved E3b bearers in a riverine expansion whose northern expression is associated with the Linearbandkeramik. This does not mean that E3b was the only haplogroup associated with these early European farmers, only that it definitely seems to correlate better with this movement compared to the other Neolithic haplogroup (J2).

-The early diffusion of E3b occurred over a haplogroup I Paleolithic background. It is likely that as groups moved northward the frequency of haplogroup E3b abated, and this is in fact shown in the frequency distribution. This movement is probably associated with the narrow-faced Danubian Mediterranean racial types.

-This native European population later received an influx of R1a speakers; the frequency of R1a is correlated with latitude. This led to a decrease of the native component in favor of the foreign R1a component (*)

-The frequency of haplogroup J2 was established by three movements: (i) the initial arrival of J2 from Asia Minor; this did not significantly penetrate into the Western Balkans; (ii) the initial dispersal of J2 into Italy and further west, and around the Black Sea in pre-Greek times, which may be associated with the arrival of gracile Mediterranean racial types into the Ukraine; (iii) the latter dispersal of additional J2 as a result of Greek colonization.

It is imperative that the fine-level phylogeography of haplogroup J2 be resolved. The high frequency of this haplogroup around the Black Sea compared to the western Balkans is highly suggestive of Greek colonization, as it is well known that Greek colonization of the Black Sea was much more intensive than Greek activity in the Adriatic. However, archaeological evidence also shows the northward diffusion of agriculturalists in Thrace to Romania, culminating in the Tripoljie culture and its steppe offshoots. We must be able to distinguish between this earlier movement and the later maritime arrival of the Greeks.

The critical question would be: what fraction of J2 lineages in the Ukraine can be explained as the result of ancient and recent Greek settlement in the Crimea, and what fraction predates the Greeks?

(*) We should note that these are rough correspondences. If the theory of riverine diffusion of haplogroup E3b into Central and Northern Europe is correct, then it is likely that E3b existed in a small frequency in Proto-Slavs; conversely, R1a diffused after the LGM before its most recent diffusion associated perhaps with Slavic languages.

Update: A reader alerts me to a different studywhich listed the Hungarian R1a frequency as substantially lower than the one used here (Semino et al. 2000). Unfortunately, that study did not list frequencies of all haplogroups needed for comparison, so it could not be used directly. If the frequency of R1a=20.4% is used, then a slightly different clustering is obtained.



Dienekes' Athropology Blog
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  #2  
Old 11-25-2005, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zrinski
It seems that with this Hungarians seem most alike to Austrians, Croats and West Ukranians.

It appears so, despite endless rants from Slav anthro horde and term "Balkanoid" they coined for ex-Yu peoples (with exception of Slovenia).

Moreover, when Croats call upon right to self determination, and if it is Central Europe, we have witnessed mockery and degradation, ignorant persistence on this “Balkan” terminology ignoring all relevant facts in order
to fit the pan-Slavic agenda of alleged brotherhood, similarities and ties of Croats and Serbs.

Well, the good old news is, Croats are Central European geographically, culturally, historically and, yes, genetically.

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Last edited by Ace Rimmer : 11-26-2005 at 12:17 AM.
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  #3  
Old 11-26-2005, 12:06 AM
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Funny things is that this is coming from Diekenes' site who claimed exactly the opposite on Stirpes....seems like he finally looked at that data.
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Old 11-26-2005, 01:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gromovnik
It appears so, despite endless rants from Slav anthro horde and term "Balkanoid" they coined for ex-Yu peoples (with exception of Slovenia).

Moreover, when Croats call upon right to self determination, and if it is Central Europe, we have witnessed mockery and degradation, ignorant persistence on this “Balkan” terminology ignoring all relevant facts in order
to fit the pan-Slavic agenda of alleged brotherhood, similarities and ties of Croats and Serbs.

Well, the good old news is, Croats are Central European geographically, culturally, historically and, yes, genetically.

How can either Serbs or Croats be viewed as 'homogeneous' peoples? They both consist of various sub-types, it's only the matter which one prevails, and in what percentage.

I don't know what a 'Balkanoid' is, but if it was an inhabitant of Balkan Peninsula, then Dalmatians and Herzegovians are Balkanoids, no matter they are Croats, and they certainly aren't 'Central Europeans'.
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Old 11-26-2005, 03:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banat
I don't know what a 'Balkanoid' is, but if it was an inhabitant of Balkan Peninsula, then Dalmatians and Herzegovians are Balkanoids, no matter they are Croats, and they certainly aren't 'Central Europeans'.

Sorry but no....Dalamtians and Herzegovinians cannot be Balkanoids.
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  #6  
Old 11-26-2005, 01:12 PM
Watzy Watzy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banat
I don't know what a 'Balkanoid' is, but if it was an inhabitant of Balkan Peninsula, then Dalmatians and Herzegovians are Balkanoids, no matter they are Croats, and they certainly aren't 'Central Europeans'.

Applying the same (exclusively geographic) principle, the Turks of Istanbul are Europeans, while Peruans and Canadians - Americans.
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Old 11-26-2005, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banat
How can either Serbs or Croats be viewed as 'homogeneous' peoples? They both consist of various sub-types, it's only the matter which one prevails, and in what percentage.

Yes? Where did the article or I said anything about homogeneity?

Quote:
I don't know what a 'Balkanoid' is, but if it was an inhabitant of Balkan Peninsula, then Dalmatians and Herzegovians are Balkanoids,

No they are not. Even geographically the term is quite dubious, let alone other (culture, sub-race...)
In my knowledge Balkan is mountain region in Bulgaria,
also prior to 1900 "Balkan" was defined geographically east of Drina,
until some CNN reporter coined the last war as "Balkan war" and since then we are stuck with it.



Quote:
no matter they are Croats, and they certainly aren't 'Central Europeans'.

Yes it does matter that they are Croats, they agitate to Zagreb
and are connected to it more than to anyone else in region.

Last edited by Ace Rimmer : 11-26-2005 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 11-26-2005, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gromovnik
Yes? Where did the article or I said anything about homogeneity?

Indeed . It seems I presumed it.

But the idea of Herzegovians (or: Herzegovinians) and Dalmatians being not 'Balkanoids' only if Roman-Catholics, helped a little.

Quote:
No they are not. Even geographically the term is quite dubious, let alone other (culture, sub-race...)
In my knowledge Balkan is mountain region in Bulgaria,
also prior to 1900 "Balkan" was defined geographically west of Drina,
until some CNN reporter coined the last war as "Balkan war" and since then we are stuck with it.

Yes, it is a little complicated, that is why I was wondering what 'Balkanoid' actually meant. It seems that it is just a vague idea.

Intuitively, if a Balkanoid is a European of those southern parts with certain characteristics such as temperament, certain mental features, even physical appearance, to me there is very little difference between the people of those Dinarid areas from Montenegro to Lika, and to Western Serbia and Sumadia. (A subjective note).

But if we speak of Balkan as a peninsula and not as some abstract idea, no line can possibly be set by the Drina river.

Quote:
Yes it does matter that they are Croats, they agitate to Zagreb
and are connected to it more than to anyone else in region.

Would this reason be enough to call them Central Europeans? If it is then I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zvaci
Applying the same (exclusively geographic) principle, the Turks of Istanbul are Europeans, while Peruans and Canadians - Americans.

Would it be the same? 'Balkanoid' is a more specific term than 'European' and 'American'. Differences between Herzegovians and Montenegrins, and between Herzegovians and Western Serbians are micro-differences. Differences between Istrians and Bulgarians hardly exist compared to those between Peruans and Canadians.
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Old 11-26-2005, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banat
Indeed . It seems I presumed it.

Indeed, it talks merely about sampling together all available data from
various ethnicities(Croatian sample consist of all Croatian regions btw.)
and clustering them together, to form dendrogram from which clearly
can be seen that Croatians are more related to CE peoples such are Slovenians and Hungarians.
While Serbs are more South-East European, clustering together with Slavic Macedonians and Bulgarians.

Quote:
But the idea of Herzegovians (or: Herzegovinians) and Dalmatians being not 'Balkanoids' only if Roman-Catholics, helped a little.

Yes, it is a little complicated, that is why I was wondering what 'Balkanoid' actually meant. It seems that it is just a vague idea.

If it is vague idea (i.e. geo-political term), then by all means yes, besides
being Roman-Catholics, their geo-political self determination does not
involve "Balkan" but Zagreb.

Quote:
Intuitively, if a Balkanoid is a European of those southern parts with certain characteristics such as temperament, certain mental features, even physical appearance, to me there is very little difference between the people of those Dinarid areas from Montenegro to Lika, and to Western Serbia and Sumadia. (A subjective note).

I agree to extent, the Dinarid area we are talking about does not involve Western Serbia and Sumadia. (A subjective note)


Quote:
But if we speak of Balkan as a peninsula and not as some abstract idea, no line can possibly be set by the Drina river.

But somehow, south of Sava is acceptable?

Quote:
Would this reason be enough to call them Central Europeans? If it is then I agree.

Yes, if we agree that Balkan is merely geo-political term, and that it in fact
does change depending on political situation(like it does throughout centuries).

Parallel can be drawn with so called "Eastern Europe", which ceased to exist in 1990 with fall of Soviet Union.
Useless term coined for all countries of Warszaw pact under Soviets.


Quote:
Differences between Herzegovians and Montenegrins, and between Herzegovians and Western Serbians are micro-differences.

Genetically speaking, recent sampling of 3 Bosnian ethnicities
revealed that Croats and Serbs differ.
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Old 11-26-2005, 06:18 PM
Caruk Caruk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gromovnik
Indeed, it talks merely about sampling together all available data from
various ethnicities(Croatian sample consist of all Croatian regions btw.)
and clustering them together, to form dendrogram from which clearly
can be seen that Croatians are more related to CE peoples such are Slovenians and Hungarians.
While Serbs are more South-East European, clustering together with Slavic Macedonians and Bulgarians.

I agree with that, I only think more of those peoples by their region, not national reference. According to that, I roughly differ Dinarid Serbs (more similar do Dinarid Croats and Muslims/Bosniaks), Pannonian ones (similar to Hungarians, Romanians and Pannonian Croats), and those of Eastern and Southern areas (similar to Romanians, Bulgarians and Slav Macedonians).

Quote:
I agree to extent, the Dinarid area we are talking about does not involve Western Serbia and Sumadia. (A subjective note)

Yes, Sumadia isn't such clear Dinarid area like the afore mentioned, and the people is somewhat milder, but Western Serbians are mostly all Herzegovians. Some of them are even called 'Eras', from (H)Erzegovina.

Quote:
But somehow, south of Sava is acceptable?

I meant that borders of an peninsula couldn't be drawn along its length. And I think that Sava-Kupa line is more acceptable, like we learned at school; I've only heard from some Slovenian sources about the Sava line.

Quote:
Genetically speaking, recent sampling of 3 Bosnian ethnicities
revealed that Croats and Serbs differ.

I've heard about that. But should those results be viewed in that way? In the example of B&H, Herzegovian portion is much greater with Croats than with Muslims and Serbs, while Eastern Bosnian portion is greater with Serbs than with Croats and Muslims. Several different groups can be noted in B&H, out of which Herzegovina, Krajina and Central areas come into view first, and the three people live in all of them, even look and behave alike.

Was there any research made that compared Croats from Herzegovina to Serbs from Herzegovina, or Muslims from Sarajevo to Serbs from Sarajevo, or, I don't know, Serbs from Banja Luka to Croats of the area?

If it is stated that this feature, or that feature is more common with Serbs than with Croats, and the other way around, I think that it would be a mistake to speak of those people 'as a whole', but rather of features. I bet Zagorje features, if there is such thing, doesn't exist with Serbs at all, as the same could be said to Croats having 'Rodopian' features, which make the two more similar to Slovenes and Bulgarians respectively. I admit, I know nothing but the mare basis of genetics, so what I said shouldn't be viewed as a criticism, but rather a common sense wondering.
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