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Znanstveni kutak Genetika, antropologija, psihologija, biologija, ekonomija, tehnologija, oružje, okultno... Neka se zna da smo i pametni.

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  #21  
Old 11-28-2005, 12:32 AM
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Zrinski Zrinski is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gromovnik
So is Central European Nordic with Slovenes that somehow follows exact route of Croatian-Slovene border.

It just shows how arrtifical that map is.
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  #22  
Old 11-28-2005, 02:34 AM
Caruk Caruk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gromovnik
How about the perfect line formed by Drina-Dunav Rivers. Since we are into aesthetic definition now.

No, you can't draw a border of a peninsula along its length and mark more than its 1/6 out of it.

Quote:
That's all let's say this and that, I , on the other hand will stick to the available data thank you. No need to deviate the subject.

No, I just pointed out how the same misinterpretation would appear if the the odds were somewhat different. In a serious discussion all possible and hypothetical situations are free to discuss.

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Which is not to be taken valid or seriously.

Only if it was a false testimony, which it wasn't.

Quote:
No, it is not exactly what you said.
This similarity of Herzegovinian Catholics and Orthodox who do not differ is merely your subjective note, while Carleton S.Coon suggests otherwise.

Coon suggests that there are significant racial differences between Orthodox and Catholic Herzegovinians?

Quote:
You are again into speculations with "if by any chance" and thus further deviate from the original data.
You are contributing with unnecessary confusion, the data is clear,
and there is no need for further interpretation and deviation.

The data *is* clear. It says that certain features are more common with Croats, while the others are more common with Serbs. And it also says that ALL the measured features are present in BOTH peoples, only in slightly different percentage, which was caused by the fact that the people wern't evenly distributed in all regions.

That is not the reason enough to say "This ultimately proves that Croats are Central Europeans, and have nothing to do with 'Balkanoids'" while the fact is that among both Serbs and Croats there are people who are genetically closer to 'Central Europeans', and those who are genetically closer to 'Balkanoids', only in somewhat different odds.

There is no reason why would any Catholic Herzegovinian or Dalmatian or Kosovar or Montenegrin think of himself as of Central European, only because those Northern Croats are genetically similar more to Austrians and Hungarians than he is.

Quote:
He listed the sources he cited besides his own work.
Among the sources are Slovene Skerlj , Italian Biasutti and Serbs Cvijic and Males,
which are not second-hand sources and data of subjective impressions thank you,
the only one here who is having a subjective note is you.

I'm making 'subjective notes'?

Alright. Tell me then what patterns did Coon observe, how did he create them and in what way did he arrange them so they could be representative? Anyway, I'm just going to this:

Quote:
No it's not misleading, it is very clear. "The Serbs are darker in pigmentation than either the Slovenes or the Croatians"


Quote:
Yes there are ways. Some overlap does exist, but we are two different people.

Quote:
He was talking on the average.

Here we come to the point: he was speaking of the average, and you presented it as in general.

The average number of the numbers 5 and 10 is 7.5. But you can't say that a 2m 70kg blond male and a 1.60m 90kg raven female, make the average of a 1.80m 80kg brown-haired hermaphrodite (!)

If we have two groups of smilies:
Group X:
Group Y:
The Group X has 9 'smilies' or 60%, and 7 'frownies' or 40%, while the Group Y has 3 'smilies' or 37.5%, and 5 'frownies' or 62.5%.

It DOESN'T say that Group X is consisted of 'smilies' and therefore is completely different from the Group Y which is consisted of 'frawnies'.

It DOESN'T say that Group Y has proven itself to be 'frawny', and therefore shouldn't ever be called a mixed group.

It DOESN'T say that the data has shown that 'smiley' Group X has absolutely nothing in similar with 'frawny' Group Y.

It DOESN'T say that Ys are 'frawnier' than Xs.

It may appear that I'm not being serious, but statistics is a tool that should be handled very carefully. No hasty generalizations are allowed, if a serious conversation is to be maintained. Otherwise it just has the effect as posting pictures of individual 'swarthy' Serbs and 'pale' Croats and claim the same.

Quote:
This is about sub-race, while Jan Czekanowski's taxonomy on sub-races is not
quite accepted, that of Carleton S. Coon is ,and is foundation for all relevant studies on the matter since the time, in what genetics approved of in his favour.

Replace Armenoid with Dinaroid and Laponoid with Alpine, and the taxonomy would appear alright.

Quote:
I sense that there is problem, deviation, subjective interpretations and importing confusion into very clear and simple topic from the beginning.

The problems is in overly simplifying statistical data, and giving it political and even sensational note. The topic would be clear and simple if the final conclusion wasn't:
Grom:

It appears so, despite endless rants from Slav anthro horde and term "Balkanoid" they coined for ex-Yu peoples (with exception of Slovenia).

Moreover, when Croats call upon right to self determination, and if it is Central Europe, we have witnessed mockery and degradation, ignorant persistence on this “Balkan” terminology ignoring all relevant facts in order
to fit the pan-Slavic agenda of alleged brotherhood, similarities and ties of Croats and Serbs.

Well, the good old news is, Croats are Central European geographically, culturally, historically and, yes, genetically.
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  #23  
Old 11-28-2005, 10:59 AM
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Zrinski Zrinski is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banat
Replace Armenoid with Dinaroid and Laponoid with Alpine, and the taxonomy would appear alright.

That is not in question, we are not talking only about taxonomy but also about ridiculous distribution which has nothing to do with facts. I mean come on....Dinaroids majority in Slavonia and northwestern Croatia?! I can only but laught to that...
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  #24  
Old 11-28-2005, 11:47 AM
Caruk Caruk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zrinski
That is not in question, we are not talking only about taxonomy but also about ridiculous distribution which has nothing to do with facts. I mean come on....Dinaroids majority in Slavonia and northwestern Croatia?! I can only but laught to that...

He mentioned the taxonomy only, so I gave an answer to that remark only.

However, that was but a counter-example, to the remark of Serbs being 'darker in pigmentation' than Croats, which is as ridiculous and which also leaves one to do nothing but laugh. There is no chance for the people of that Central belt along the flow of Velika Morava, and even Vojvodina also, to be qualified as 'darker in pigmentation' than Dalmatians and Herzegovinians. It also shows that the situation isn't that clear and simple as presented, and that there are/were opposite opinions.

Anyway, I agree with your point and I'm glad it wasn't for me trying to show that Serbs are predominately Nordids, and Croats Armenoids in the first place, which would lack seriousness the same as much as the original remark.
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  #25  
Old 11-28-2005, 02:00 PM
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Ace Rimmer Ace Rimmer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banat
No, you can't draw a border of a peninsula along its length and mark more than its 1/6 out of it.

We've already been through geographical and cultural definition,
we have proven our self it to be vague term, geo-political, similar to Eastern Europe term 1945-90, which are both meaningless and do in fact change, depending on current political situation.

We are back at geography now, ok.
Peninsula
-a large mass of land projecting into a body of water
-A peninsula is a geographical formation consisting of an extension of land from a larger body, surrounded by water on three sides.
-an area of land almost completely surrounded by water but connected to a larger piece of land
-A body of water nearly surrounded by water, and connected with a larger body by a neck or isthmus; any tract of land jutting out into the water.
-a projection of land that is almost completely surrounded by sea
-a piece of land with water on 3 sides
-A narrow piece of land jutting out into the sea.
-a piece of land that extends out into the ocean and is surrounded by water on three sides.


Peninsula

Croatia, that is also part of peninsula along it's length.
While Hungary i.e. is not part of it.
Yes it really fits definition of peninsula.



I know what is this about, it's been displayed only from Serbs, Greeks Orthodox Slavs and pan-Slavs.
Brotherhood(non-war attempt to dominate Croats) failed through Yugoslavism, now we are all Balkanoids.


Quote:
No, I just pointed out how the same misinterpretation would appear if the the odds were somewhat different. In a serious discussion all possible and hypothetical situations are free to discuss.

I do not wish to engage in hypothetical discussion but rather with available data.


Quote:
Only if it was a false testimony, which it wasn't.

Irrelevant for the matter, these people are not anthropologist or genetic experts,
their (and yours) testimony rely on someone being friendly or not, good host, overall impression ..etc
Besides we are speaking here genetically, since this is what topic is about.

Quote:
Coon suggests that there are significant racial differences between Orthodox and Catholic Herzegovinians?

Coon suggested what was quoted from the link I posted.

Quote:
The data *is* clear. It says that certain features are more common with Croats, while the others are more common with Serbs. And it also says that ALL the measured features are present in BOTH peoples,

Yes.

Quote:
only in slightly different percentage,

Slightly?
The difference with each Hg is more than 50%, while 3 Hg represented with Serbs
are completely absent with Croats.

Quote:
which was caused by the fact that the people wern't evenly distributed in all regions.

Until you present me data about genetic similarities of Herzegovinian Croats and Serbs you are here also into speculations.

Quote:
That is not the reason enough to say "This ultimately proves that Croats are Central Europeans, and have nothing to do with 'Balkanoids'"

No, the sampling of Croats ALL TOGETHER revealed that they are OVERALL
more closer to Central European populations than to Serbs who are closer to South-Eastern European populations, accept this already please.

Quote:
while the fact is that among both Serbs and Croats there are people who are genetically closer to 'Central Europeans',

You are contributing to necessary confusion again, the Croats are sampled together because they are Croats, this is common practice in entire World
the Serbs are because they are Serbs, overall the populations are clustered differently.
Serb obviously has issue with this, learn to accept it.


Quote:
and those who are genetically closer to 'Balkanoids', only in somewhat different odds.

There is no such thing as genetically "Balkanoid", neither there is such thing as "Balkanoid".
On which you persist while still failing to answer Zvaci's question and finally define "Balkanoid".

Quote:
There is no reason why would any Catholic Herzegovinian or Dalmatian or Kosovar or Montenegrin think of himself as of Central European, only because those Northern Croats are genetically similar more to Austrians and Hungarians than he is.

You have still failed to understand that all Croatian regions are sampled together
and as such display tie with Central European populations.

Quote:
I'm making 'subjective notes'?

Yes you do, you said it your self.

Quote:
Alright. Tell me then what patterns did Coon observe, how did he create them and in what way did he arrange them so they could be representative? Anyway, I'm just going to this:

It is all clear in link I provided, the text, the numbers at the end of lines
and sources he citied, which you called second hand, but when pointing out
his sources, now you want me to explain Coon's schematics on his work, I can not do this, since I am not familiar with it.

Quote:
Here we come to the point: he was speaking of the average, and you presented it as in general.

No I cited his words, I did not presented it otherwise.

Quote:
It may appear that I'm not being serious, but statistics is a tool that should be handled very carefully. No hasty generalizations are allowed, if a serious conversation is to be maintained. Otherwise it just has the effect as posting pictures of individual 'swarthy' Serbs and 'pale' Croats and claim the same.

No body here posted any pictures besides you, I am talking about genetics
, it is you who is diverting the topic and dissecting Croats by regions and thus dissecting the original article of the topic to fit your agenda.
While the original article is very clear about him self.


Quote:
The problems is in overly simplifying statistical data, and giving it political and even sensational note. The topic would be clear and simple if the final conclusion wasn't:

I am merely responding to same pattern of political issues,
which I witnessed over significant period on various forums.
Finally with new solid researches we have enough data to speak for decent amount of certainty.
But now I, somehow, do not have right to expose years lasting fraud and unjust
degradation and mockery of Croats on various boards, who were merely
calling upon their own right to self-determination, and it is Central Europe,
which has it's foundations, in history, culture and genetics.

Quote:
Grom:

Well, the good old news is, Croats are Central European geographically, culturally, historically and, yes, genetically.

Yes, I stand by it, and I have my support for said in geography, culture, history and, yes, genetics.

You , as well as any other Serb, pan-Slavs...etc. have the issue with this,
which are also politically motivated of which you accused me for.
In contrast to the line I said, I have not yet seen any fact or data
that would disapprove of me, you still have failed to present us
what "Balkanoid" is and how exactly do Croats fit the group,
either in terms of culture, history or genetics.
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  #26  
Old 11-28-2005, 02:20 PM
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Until you provide us with following, we have nothing further to discuss in my opinion.

1. Define "Balkanoid" .

2. Present us how are Croats "Balkanoid", either culturally, historically, or genetically.

2. Present us genetic data on Herzegovinan Croats vs. Herzegovinian Serbs, instead just speculating.
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  #27  
Old 11-28-2005, 05:20 PM
Caruk Caruk is offline
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1. Grom, it was you who first mentioned the term 'Balkanoid' as a coiled term for all ex-YU peoples, except for the Slovenes, and I said that I DIDN'T know what that term should actually mean, and that it was but a vague category. Now I'm being asked to precisely define the term, which isn't that easy at all. Intuitivelly, if 'Balkanoid' was 'Balkanac', that would include all inhabitants of Balkan peninsula, from European Turks and inland Greeks to Manjurian Romanians and Dalmatian Croats.

2. NOT all Croats, and I was highly specific about that. It's not my fault that you are all viewed as such due to media and common observation of the Westerners.

3. I am not speculating, I am observing. And not only I do make that conclusion. And considering Herzegovina Grom, you should once decide if Herzegovinian Serbs are just those Orthodoxes who embraced Serbian name in 19th century, like it was often suggested, or a people totally different from Herzegovinian Catholics.

I'm only going to comment the Balkan Peninsula statements, because except for that you more-less repeated the same as in previous post:

Quote:
I know what is this about, it's been displayed only from Serbs, Greeks Orthodox Slavs and pan-Slavs.
Brotherhood(non-war attempt to dominate Croats) failed through Yugoslavism, now we are all Balkanoids

Listen, to cut the long story short, you are just displaying certain mental behaviour. To dominate Croats??? What kind of logic is that???

Gromovnik, man, do you understand that Balkan peninsula is a peninsula, a GEOGRAPHIC area in South-Eastern Europe, on which there are Albania, Bulgaria, most of Greece, and PARTS of Romania, Serbia and Croatia. PART of Croatia, not whole of it, like you impose me to have said it, but about 40% or more of its territory.

How can I possibly be a pan-Slavic orientated when talking about geography, while at the same time WHOLE of my area, which is about 20% of Serbian territory, and 2,000,000 of its people is OUT OF Balkan peninsula and in Central Europe?

Is it my fault, or my pan-Slavic ideology that I learned at my geography classes the same as the rest of Europe, which is:

Quote:
Balkan Peninsula, peninsula in southeastern Europe, bounded on the east by the Black and Aegean seas, on the south by the Mediterranean Sea, and on the west by the Adriatic and Ionian seas.

Geographically, the northern boundary of the peninsula can be defined by the Sava River; the lower Danube River from the point, at Belgrade in Serbia, where the Sava joins it; and a line drawn arbitrarily from the upper Sava to the Adriatic Sea near Rijeka, Croatia.

BALKAN PENINSULA ON THE MAP ==> LINK

Source: E N C A R T A - > LINK

Make your appeals to European Union when you become a full member, or to various Geography Institutes throughout Europe and the world, explain to them that Balkan Peninsula doesn't actually exist, for it actually lacks an isthmus. If you can change your geographic position by not moving for a single inch, I'll accept that Herzegovina and Dalmatia aren't on Balkan.

Greetings from Banat, Central Europe, from a person who is most certainly not a Pan-Slavic.
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  #28  
Old 11-28-2005, 06:32 PM
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Zrinski Zrinski is offline
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The map and the defintion you here propagate is geopolitical one and not at all geographic and historical. Dalmatian Croats have nothing to do with Balkans nor have they ever had anything to do with. For gods sake this was place of greatest renesaince movement outside of Italy, France, Spain and England. Ridiculous...

As for the pigmentation it is common fact that Serbs are darker in pigmentation and dark hair-eyes colour distribution.
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  #29  
Old 11-28-2005, 06:55 PM
Caruk Caruk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zrinski
The map and the defintion you here propagate is geopolitical one and not at all geographic and historical.

I never. I'm not propagatin anything, that is schoolbook stuff, geography lessons, learned everywhere in the world, which has nothing to do with politics. It is not my fault that the term 'Balkan' has somehow become associated with primitivism, to which, and you must agree, Croatian propaganda pretty much contributed, and that those geography lessons seem to be a taboo in Croatia.

Quote:
As for the pigmentation it is common fact that Serbs are darker in pigmentation and dark hair-eyes colour distribution.

No, it isn't. In fact, I've heard these stupidities only on the Internet, where some Croats were so desperately trying to present themselves as Western Europeans, and on the other hand Serbs as a people totally different and strange to them, even racially, which is absurd.

But I explained it already in this very thread in Post #13, in the part where I presented two somewhat extreme racial types, both of which could pass as either Serbian or Croatian.
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  #30  
Old 11-28-2005, 07:45 PM
Watzy Watzy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banat
I never. I'm not propagating anything, that is schoolbook stuff, geography lessons, learned everywhere in the world, which has nothing to do with politics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banat
Croats were so desperately trying to present themselves as Western Europeans, and on the other hand Serbs as a people totally different and strange to them, even racially, which is absurd.

As one can clearly see from these quotes, you are trying to support your political Balkan agenda by stating geographical 'facts'.

Serbs do not have to be 'completely different' to be regarded completely foreign and strange to Croats.

Croats are a Western nation and it's a historic and cultural fact having very little to do with geography.

Geographically Dalmatia belong to Southern Europe/Northern Mediterranean/Eastern Adriatic - not Balkans.
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