The Phora  

Go Back   The Phora > The Academy > Race Relations
User Name
Password
Blog Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Race Relations "Us natives, born rightwise to these fine lands... or the foreign hordes defiling them." Discuss racialism and race-related topics in Europe and North America.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-12-2006, 11:55 AM
Petr Petr is offline
Established member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 21,032
Cool 12 Observations About Arabs (amusing stuff)

Written by an American who has worked extensively in the Arab world - IMHO, this guy is not expressing just standard anti-Ayrab bigotry but brutal honesty:


http://rantsand.blogspot.com/2006/09...-on-arabs.html


Saturday, September 09, 2006

Observations on Arabs


Journalist Jill Carroll is back home now, and detailing her experiences as a captive of the jihadists in Iraq in the Christian Science Monitor.
( http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0814/p01s01-woiq.html ) I'm sure the details will prove fascinating, but the upshot of what she has learned is that the Islamists are - gasp! - different from us! Furthermore, I believe that she's beginning to suspect that they are really not very nice people. Oh whatever will this poor old world be FORCED to endure next?

Since the beginning of the Iraq phase of this conflict of civilizations, I've experienced the teeth-grinding frustration of watching both pro- and anti- Iraq sides make the exact same mistake - that of supposing that these people are bascially Americans in funny costumes. In this respect, George Bush and Michael Moore are equally clueless, as was Jill Carroll apparently.

I went to live and work in Saudi Arabia in 1998, and I "made my year" as expats there put it. That phrase means that I actually stuck out the whole year, instead of "running" from my contract, an occurrence so common that you only have to say "he did a runner" to explain why someone isn't showing up for work anymore. And while my experience wasn't nearly as unpleasant as Jill Carroll's, I could have told her a thing or two before she went to Iraq armed with her overflowing good will.

In Eastern Europe and the South Balkans, whenever I have gone to live in a place which I had formed opinions about, the actual experience of living there has always radically changed those opinions, sometimes into a completely contradictory ones. Most often, my academic research led me to form a beautifully coherent model which experience turned into a semi-coherent collection of observations and tentative conclusions.

In the case of the Kingdom, I went there with a certain sympathy for Arab grievances, a belief that America had earned a lot of hostility from "blowback" from our ham-handed interventionist foreign policy and support for Israel etc.

I came back with the gloomy opinion that over the long run we are going to have to hammer these people hard to get them to quit messing with Western Civilization. And by the way, among "rational, fair-minded" non-interventionist libertarians, not a damn one of them has asked me, "What in your experience caused you to change your mind?" Instead what I get are gratuitous insults followed by insufferably condescending lectures about how wrong I am.

So, with the caveat that one of the first things I learned was that the term “Arab” covers a lot of territory, here are some observations and some tentative conclusions about Arabs, more specifically about Arabs from the oil states about why we have misunderstood each other to the point that we are fighting a war with some of them and are pissing off the rest of them. I suspect that many of these also apply to Iranian Islamists, but I have never been there and note that Iranians are not Arabs and have a different cultural history.


1) They don’t think the same way we do.

No, I mean THEY REALLY DON'T THINK THE SAME WAY WE DO. Yes, yes, I know we are all human and share the same human nature (perhaps the most disastrous mistake of Marxism was the denial of this elementary fact). But within the scope of that shared human nature, there are a lot of different ways to be human. We Americans have a basically open attitude to our fellow human beings and sometimes forget this. Combined with the fact that most Americans are linguistic idiots, we tend to assume that anyone who learns to speak English learns to think like us.


2) When you meet them in just the right circumstances, they are a very likable people.

Arabs are often easy to like, but difficult to respect - as opposed to Israelis, who are often difficult to like but impossible not to respect. From their nomadic heritage they have a tradition of generosity and hospitality to guests that warms the heart. Arab shopkeepers have a talent for making you feel guilty that you didn’t buy anything (once you get past a dislike of having them lay hands on you). Haggling is a social grace with them and when you ask the price, and agree to the first one quoted, they will often come down on the price just out of pity for your social ineptness. This does not in the least affect the fact that no friendship with you is ever going to remotely equal the obligations they have for their family, tribe or the community of the Believers.


3) Their values are fundamentally different from ours, their self-esteem is derived from a different source.

And you know what? Theirs is PHONY. Yes I know, I’m making a cultural value judgment, the cardinal sin when I was a grad student in Anthropology. With us, the most important sources of self-esteem are useful work and the love of a good woman. Being good at something that requires skill (even a hobby) and being of primary importance to somebody just because you are who you are. Work for them, is something to be avoided. The basic forms of work: making stuff, growing stuff and moving stuff around, is taken care of by a class of indentured servants, usually non-Arab Muslims from the Third World, and even today, by outright slaves. The Kingdom is a modern country, they abolished slavery in 1967, but old expats have reported seeing slave auctions as late as 1981.

On one occasion a student of mine asked me, “Teacher, what do you call a man who can be sold?” (Excellent use of the passive voice, I was proud of him.) I explained, “He is called a slave, the condition is called slavery, the verb is to enslave.” Later I had occasion to ask them about the headsman, the fellow who cuts heads and hands off in chop-chop square in front of the mosque on Fridays. The reason I asked was that from my studies I knew that in tribal societies converting from a tribal or feudal system into a system of common laws, a man condemned to death by a court of law must often be executed by a member of his own tribe, or a complete outsider so that the execution does not spark a blood feud. In the Kingdom the headsman is usually a Sudanese. My students explained, “Yes teacher, he’s a slave.” i.e. he’s a person of no importance and therefore outside the web of obligations of vengeance.

The point being, in a slave society, work is not honorable (as De Tocqueville pointed out) and cannot be a source of self-worth.

In Tunisia I saw a population doing their own work and I have worked with a fair number of Jordanians engaged in skilled labor and the professions. Note that neither is an oil state and I believe their contribution to the ranks of terrorists is far less than the oil-rich countries. It is difficult to argue that poverty is the driving cause of terrorism.

“Of conjugal love they know nothing.” (Thomas Jefferson on the French aristocracy.) In a land of arranged marriages, where the whole society is geared towards a strict segregation of the sexes and women are at least semi-chattels, romantic love is rare – and greatly desired. In the Kingdom I found a few students with a consuming interest in romantic poetry, whom I had to teach very discretely. Most of them were just obsessed with sex however. And interestingly, when visiting the West or the fleshpots of Bahrain, they are said to have a tendency to fall in love with the prostitutes they patronize.

Without honorable work, romantic love or any accomplishments not overshadowed by those the West, their sense of self-worth comes from being the possessors of the One True Religion. And Allah doesn’t seem to be delivering on his promises of being exalted above the unbelievers these days.

On the plus side, they are willing to spare you and absorb you into their community as a respected member if you convert to the One True Religion. The Brotherhood of Believers is a reality in the lands of Islam, and while it sometimes falls short of the ideal (as does our democratic ideal) it is a reality, and in its way admirable.


4) Not only can they not build the infrastructure of a modern society, they can’t maintain it either.

The very concept of "maintenance" is foreign to them. This is what drives the foreign instructors in the Gulf absolutely mad. The per capita richest countries in the world resemble Eastern Europe or Latin America in the tackiness and run-down appearance of the buildings and streets. An electronics technician new to the Kingdom once told me how his first job was to inspect a junction box in the desert. He had to pry it open with a crowbar as it had evidently not been opened since it had been installed several years earlier.

This is expressed in the inshallah philosophy, “If God wills it.” A Palestinian friend of mine explained to me that even the weather forecaster will qualify his prediction, “It will rain tomorrow. Inshallah.” Or, “I will meet you tomorrow, inshallah.” (But God understands that I am a very unreliable person.)


I remember giving a pep talk to my students before a crucial exam, “You are all going to pass the exam, right?” “Inshallah teacher.” “No, no!” I shouted, “No inshallah. Study!”

This was once also characteristic of the former communist countries. Work was indifferently performed and maintenance was a real problem. A factory owner in Poland told me that machines he bought from Sweden lasted only half as long in Poland as they did in Sweden because of poor maintenance. However as soon as people were assured that they could keep a reasonable amount of what they worked for, people reverted to their true cultural patterns, worked plenty hard and started to take care of their tools and the public spaces.


5) They do not think of obligations as running both ways.

With us, contractual and moral obligations tend to be equal and reciprocal. They don’t see it that way. The obligations of the superior to the inferior do not equal those of the inferior to the superior. Obligations within a family or clan outweigh all others. That is why we had to take care not to sit members of the same clan near each other during exams. If one asks another for help, he has to give it. In spite of promises to the school and even when the clansman is a total stranger. Obligations to other believers outweigh all obligations to unbelievers and especially when the believers are fellow-Arabs. And in contracts with unbelievers, the obligations of the Believer to the kaffir are not equal to the obligations of the kaffir to the Believer.

Consider that Muslims in England have quite un-selfconsciously demanded that a pub near a Mosque be shut down as offensive to their religion – in spite of the fact that the pub had precedence by six hundred years! Or that they demanded the right to broadcast the prayer call on loudspeakers in London while it is illegal to have a church at all in the Kingdom.


6) In warfare, we think they are sneaky cowards, they think we are hypocrites.

In our civilization, when two men get down, either seriously or just “woofing”, what do they say? Some variation of “I’m going to kick your ass.” Am I right? Here’s what I heard in the Kingdom, “Hey, don’t f**k with me, or someday you get a knife in the back.” I’m not saying that wouldn’t happen to you in the West, but most men would be ashamed to make a threat of that nature. We don’t understand that direct shock battle is not necessarily the law of nature. When overwhelming force is brought to bear on them, they become cringing and obsequious. To put it bluntly, they lie their heads off to get you to turn your back on them. Try to see it from their point of view – how else do you expect them to act when you have the overwhelming force? You expect them to meet you on equal terms when the situation is so unequal? What other tactics are available but prevarication and delay followed by a sneak attack?

Folks, what we call “terrorism” is quite close to the historically normal way of warfare among these people.



7) In rhetoric, they don’t mean to be taken seriously and they don’t understand when we do.

Thus an ultimatum is often not taken seriously and the reality comes as a surprise. Remember the “Mother of all Battles”? Like many other Mediterranean peoples, Arabs don’t seem to mind making a scene in public and have a high blown sense of drama. Paul Harvey once described how he had spent the Suez Crisis hiding under the bed in his hotel room because of the blood-curdling radio broadcasts, before he learned that Arabs talk like that when they’re arguing over a taxi. “This is my taxi and I will defend it to the death!” “You lie, it’s mine and rivers of blood will flow in the street before I give up my taxi!”

An Arab will scream at you, get into your personal space and sometimes kick dirt on your shoe – and they react with utter surprise when an American up and decks him. “What did I do?” To say the least, this makes negotiations difficult.



8) They don’t place the same value on an abstract conception of Truth as we do, they routinely believe things of breathtaking absurdity.

I cannot begin to tell you of some of the things I’ve heard from Gulf Arabs or read in the English language press in the Kingdom. “The Jews want Medina back.” (Medina was a Jewish city in the time of the Prophet.) The Protocols of the Elders of Zion has been turned into an immensely popular miniseries on Egyptian TV. The Blood Libel (the medieval myth that Jews need the blood of non-Jewish babies to celebrate Passover) is widely reported in the Arab press, and widely believed. Allah will replenish the oil beneath Arabia when it runs out.

I’ve been assured, by well-educated and otherwise sensible people that Winston Churchill was Jewish and that Anthony Quinn had been blacklisted and would never work again after making Lion of the Desert (just before he made that turkey with Kevin Costner).


9) They do not have the same notion of cause and effect as we do.

This involves some seriously weird stuff about other people being responsible for their misery because they ill-wished them. I’ve read in the English-language press of the Kingdom serious admonitions against using Black Magic to win an advantage in a dispute with a neighbor. The columnist did not deny the efficacy of Black Magic, he just said it’s forbidden to use it. On one occasion I was trying to explain the concept of "myth" to them and I used the example of the djinn. I wasn't getting through to them at all and was concerned that I had mangled the pronunciation of the word when it dawned on me that the reason they didn't understand what I was getting at, was that they had no doubt that the djinn were real.


10) We take for granted that we are a dominant civilization still on the way up. They are acutely aware that they are a civilization on the skids.

Anyone who looks at the surviving architecture of Moorish Spain can tell that Islamic civilization has seen better days. There was a time when cultural transmission between Islam and the West went overwhelmingly from them to us. (Note the recent discoveries of Sufi symbols engraved on the structural members of European cathedrals.) Now the situation is reversed, and it is humiliating for them.


11) We think that everybody has a right to their own point of view, they think that that idea is not only self-evidently absurd, but evil.

In the West, and America more than anyplace else, we have internalized the notion that everyone has a right to their own opinion, and that said opinion is perfectly valid for them. When we meet a people who think that that idea is insane and evil, we are sometimes left in the absurd position of defending their idea as “perfectly valid for them”. Doesn’t work that way for them, God’s Truth is laid out in some detail in the Koran, and not to believe it is a sin. I know I know, in America you can find lots of Christian Fundamentalists who believe that God will cast you into hell for holding the wrong opinions about Him, but even those who would make their religion into an established church seldom desire the level of enforcement in such detail as the Kingdom does or the Taliban did.


12) Our civilization is destroying theirs. We cannot share a world in peace. They understand this; we have yet to learn it.

Another culturally-imposed blindness we have is the notion that everybody can get along with enough good will. There is absolutely no evidence to support this and a great deal to oppose it. Can the subjugation of women coexist with Western Civilization with Western media ubiquitous throughout the world? Can a pluralistic and tolerant society be governed by Islamic law? Can a modern economy exist where interest is forbidden and many forms of business risk-taking are considered gambling, and thus forbidden? Can a society that educates its young men by a process of rote recitation produce critically thinking, technically educated men to build and operate a modern economy? Can you even teach elementary concepts of maintenance to a people who believe that anything that happens is inshalla (As God will it)? To compete, or even just survive in the world they must become more like us and less like themselves – and they know this.


posted by Steve Browne at 6:42 AM
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-12-2006, 11:59 AM
Petr Petr is offline
Established member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 21,032
Default

Quote:
7) In rhetoric, they don’t mean to be taken seriously and they don’t understand when we do.

Thus an ultimatum is often not taken seriously and the reality comes as a surprise. Remember the “Mother of all Battles”? Like many other Mediterranean peoples, Arabs don’t seem to mind making a scene in public and have a high blown sense of drama. Paul Harvey once described how he had spent the Suez Crisis hiding under the bed in his hotel room because of the blood-curdling radio broadcasts, before he learned that Arabs talk like that when they’re arguing over a taxi. “This is my taxi and I will defend it to the death!” “You lie, it’s mine and rivers of blood will flow in the street before I give up my taxi!”

An Arab will scream at you, get into your personal space and sometimes kick dirt on your shoe – and they react with utter surprise when an American up and decks him. “What did I do?” To say the least, this makes negotiations difficult.
This one made me laugh.

"War Nerd" agrees:

Quote:
One of the worst mistakes a propaganda guy can make is mixing domestic and foreign speeches. That's what the Arabs did, time and again, when they were having one of their backyard yelling matches with Israel. The Arab leaders would come up with these blood-curdling lines about slashing every Israeli throat and tossing the bodies into the sea for bait, that kind of crap, hours of it. Now everybody knew damn well it was pure woofing, classic Arab loudtalking, no more dangerous than a cocker spaniel barking.

But the Israelis could take those quotes, play them to the Americans, and we'd be so shocked we'd instantly give them all the tanks and bombs they needed. When the IDF shells started falling, there'd be poor ol' Nasser or Sadat or Assad cowering in the special Presidential bunker muttering, "Aw, c'mon, you knew damn well I was just trying to be popular! You didn't have to take it all so serious!"

http://www.exile.ru/2006-April-21/war_nerd.html


Petr

Last edited by Petr : 10-12-2006 at 12:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-12-2006, 12:08 PM
Ubu's Avatar
Ubu Ubu is offline
Established member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 19,764
Country: Sark
Default

Excellent article Petr, I've been saying this for years

Though it's more forgivable for Americans to make these mistakes than Europeans, who seem to have deliberately chosen to forget centuries of hard-earned experience in dealing with these people
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-12-2006, 12:42 PM
Richard Parker's Avatar
Richard Parker Richard Parker is offline
I've never forgotten him.
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 16,967
Country: Canada
Default

This is very interesting and instructive.

Everyday I feel that Japanese people have a different brain structure from us, and it is very frustrating to deal with them. But this difference must be so much worse when it comes to Arabs.

This kind of thing should be required reading for all North Americans, to understand the "other side" better.
__________________
A nation is a group of people united by a mistaken view about the past and a hatred of their neighbours.
Karl Deutsch
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-12-2006, 12:45 PM
Petr Petr is offline
Established member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 21,032
Default

Quote:
The point being, in a slave society, work is not honorable (as De Tocqueville pointed out) and cannot be a source of self-worth.
I have read that Spaniards of old shared this prejudice - that during those centuries of Spanish greatness (16th and 17th centuries), both upper and lower classes held deep ideological dislike towards manual work. The career of noble adventurous soldier was greatly preferred. That's where that whole "Quixotic" attitude originated from.

(One could actually say that the whole Arab world is now suffering from a "Don Quijote" syndrome, proudly refusing to learn the tricks of modern world)

Germanic peoples had something similar when they were still a slave society:

Quote:
Nor are they as easily persuaded to plough the earth and to wait for the year's produce as to challenge an enemy and earn the honour of wounds. Nay, they actually think it tame and stupid to acquire by the sweat of toil what they might win by their blood.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/tacitus1.html


Petr

Last edited by Petr : 10-12-2006 at 12:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-12-2006, 12:52 PM
Don Quixote's Avatar
Don Quixote Don Quixote is offline
Tilting at windmills
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 20,814
Country: Angola
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petr
I have read that Spaniards of old shared this prejudice - that during those centuries of Spanish greatness (16th and 17th centuries), both upper and lower classes held deep ideological dislike towards manual work. The career of noble adventurous soldier was greatly preferred. That's where that whole "Quixotic" attitude originated from.

Germanic peoples had something similar when they were still a slave society:


http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/tacitus1.html


Petr
All slave-owning and aristocratic-feudal societies despise labour. The Greeks called it banausia which carries a strong pejorative sense.
__________________
In any case we clearly see, and on this there is general agreement, that some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class: for the ancient workingmen's guilds were abolished in the last century, and no other protective organization took their place. Public institutions and the laws set aside the ancient religion. Hence, by degrees it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition. The mischief has been increased by rapacious usury, which, although more than once condemned by the Church, is nevertheless, under a different guise, but with like injustice, still practiced by covetous and grasping men.
Pope Leo XIII - Rerum Novarum
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-12-2006, 12:55 PM
Jimbo Gomez's Avatar
Jimbo Gomez Jimbo Gomez is offline
tired of this crap
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Age: 35
Posts: 17,666
Country: Vlaamse Leeuw
Default

I wonder how those people get anything done if they hate working. You can't import millions of chattel, sit on your ass all day and still not have your society collapse.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by il ragno
"I joined the Phora to laugh at niggers, post animated grave-dancing .gifs every time a Jew dies, and read skinhead how-to manuals on unprovoked eye-gougings in a circumspect and dignified manner - to take part in high-brow discussion, in other words. I did NOT sign on to be insulted!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by mladikov
This is a forum for Jew-hating fringers, racialist commies, cop-bashing anti-government activists, eugenicists, and postmodern hedonists, and you want us to talk in subtle, drawing-room tones?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-12-2006, 01:08 PM
Don Quixote's Avatar
Don Quixote Don Quixote is offline
Tilting at windmills
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 20,814
Country: Angola
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cesare Borgia
I wonder how those people get anything done if they hate working. You can't import millions of chattel, sit on your ass all day and still not have your society collapse.
They use foreign labour. they import people from Africa, the sub-continent and the far east for lowly work, Palestinians and Lebanese for office work, admin, education etc, and westerners for technical support.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-12-2006, 01:11 PM
Jimbo Gomez's Avatar
Jimbo Gomez Jimbo Gomez is offline
tired of this crap
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Age: 35
Posts: 17,666
Country: Vlaamse Leeuw
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil Fawlty
They use foreign labour. they import people from Africa, the sub-continent and the far east for lowly work, Palestinians and Lebanese for office work, admin, education etc, and westerners for technical support.


That society has to collapse soon enough.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-12-2006, 01:15 PM
Don Quixote's Avatar
Don Quixote Don Quixote is offline
Tilting at windmills
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 20,814
Country: Angola
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cesare Borgia
That society has to collapse soon enough.
Its the very small native population and huge oil revenues that keep it going (Saudi, that is). They throw money at everything, that's what keeps things going. When the oil dries out, that's it.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Page generated in 0.74434 seconds with 9 queries