Creationism v. Darwinism

[Fade the Butcher]

Originally Posted by Sturmwaffen

I don't know about you all, but I'm going through a major relevation in my life. I want to be baptised a Roman Catholic. Anyone else had any similar beliefs or desires?

I'm sorry to hear that.

[il ragno]

This ostensibly has nothing to do with religion. Unless maybe it does, in a way. It's certainly applicable to the discussion at hand.

The quote may not be verbatim - I'm summoning it from memory - but when Laurence Olivier was reminded of the callow and somewhat-stiff young heroes he portrayed in his tyro days, he said, "When you're young you're too bashful to play a hero effectively, so you debunk the whole idea of heroes. It's only when you're older, and time is fleeting, that you begin to appreciate the pictorial and thematic beauty of heroism."

A thought some here should mull on.

[Fade the Butcher]

Originally Posted by jcs

Rome has been the center of the world for a long while.

The world is billions of years old.

[Fade the Butcher]

Which religion is the right one? It might be a good idea to figure this out before you wind up in Hell for picking Jesus over Mohammad.

[jcs]

The world is billions of years old.

Western culture is not.

Which religion is the right one? It might be a good idea to figure this out before you wind up in Hell for picking Jesus over Mohammad.

The possibility that one might be incorrect is hardly a reason to not believe. A modification of Pascal's wager easily does away with this argument: if there is an afterlife, if one organized religion happens to be correct, one has a better chance of reaching Heaven by believing in one of these religions than not believing at all (as the chance there is 0/n).
But anyway, if one explores the theological issues, Catholicism is obviously the right religion.

[Anarch]

Originally Posted by Die

Deux Ex Machina:

And so you're going to be baptised for what?

To finish off the job.

[Lenny]

Originally Posted by jcs

Western culture is not.

Catholicism is to Western culture what concentrated mustard gas is to a human being

Originally Posted by jcs

if one explores the theological issues, Catholicism is obviously the right religion.

What a joke Most Catholic dogma is not supported by Scripture in any way, and a lot of their false teachings are even directly refuted by Scripture, or even from Jesus' own words! Some "one true religion" The reality is that Catholic dogma was mostly invented over the centuries by crooks, fanatics, greedy idiots, power-hungry Popes/RC fatcats, etc

Originally Posted by jcs

Catholicism is obviously the right religion.

Martin Luther's Triumph over the Papist Devil
From Mattheus Gnidius' Dialogi, a Reform pamphlet against the Papists Murner and Weddel, Germany, 1521.

[Fade the Butcher]

Originally Posted by jcs

Western culture is not.

Rome has never been the center of the world. Rome is not the center of the world today. Rome is just a city in Europe. Isn't Jerusalem supposed to be the center of the world?

The possibility that one might be incorrect is hardly a reason to not believe.

I never said that is the reason why I refuse to believe in Christianity. It's not. Christianity is implausible for all sorts of reasons. I asked which religion is the right one, or more accurately, how do you know which religious sect is in the possession of the sure infalliable truth of God. Of course, I am not saying there is one God here. There might just as well be several or none at all.

A modification of Pascal's wager easily does away with this argument: if there is an afterlife, if one organized religion happens to be correct, one has a better chance of reaching Heaven by believing in one of these religions than not believing at all (as the chance there is 0/n).

I'm not satisfied. If there is no afterlife, then what is the point spending your life acting as if there was one when this is the only life you have? If Islam is the one true religion and Mohammad really was a prophet, then we are both equally infidels. Let's suppose for the sake of argument though that a God did create the universe. Let's call him Larry. What makes you think Larry created a Heaven? What makes you think Larry cares about humans?

But anyway, if one explores the theological issues, Catholicism is obviously the right religion.

How is this obvious? If the truth of Catholic theology is self-evident, then how do you explain heresy?

[jcs]

Rome has never been the center of the world.

I was speaking in terms of culture. This is obvious given the context of my original statement.

I never said that is the reason why I refuse to believe in Christianity.

You didn't say it is THE reason, but you implicitly offer it as A reason, or at least some sort of objection. Obviously, your question was insincere.

I asked which religion is the right one, or more accurately

Catholicism.

how do you know which religious sect is in the possession of the sure infalliable truth of God.

Man has the faculty of reason for a... reason.

If there is no afterlife, then what is the point spending your life acting as if there was one when this is the only life you have?

What is the afterlife?--the eternal. Even if we assume that the Christian understanding of the afterlife is false, even if we adopt a staunchly phenomenalistic atheistic attitude (a la, say, Heidegger), we can find reason to turn our eyes up to the sky. "...poetically, man dwells..." That is to say, we look for something beyond the transitory, against which we measure life. What is the result?--one spends one's life acting as if one lives with some sort of meaning, some sort of significance. Christianity does this as well--and does it better. I fail to see how this could be considered a waste, even if untrue.
Plus, it's not untrue.

If Islam is the one true religion and Mohammad really was a prophet, then we are both equally infidels.

Islam isn't. There is no probability that something untrue could be true.

Let's suppose for the sake of argument though that a God did create the universe.

God did create the universe.

Let's call him Larry.

Let's call him Yahweh (I am Who Am), acting through the person of Eloi/Elohim. God couldn't be named Larry, even for the sake of argument. There is much in a name: God could only be named as He is named.

What makes you think Larry created a Heaven?

Yahweh is Being, and through His person as the Father confers being to all beings. Yahweh is the principle of existence, the Father the Creator of all that is created; nothing could exist without God.
This will be inadequate for you. "The existence of an effect does not point to the existence of a particular cause." Or some such.
Well, then my answer is this: God said He is the Creator.
Now, as to what makes me think God created a Heaven: the praeternatural is the seat of the spirit. The soul dwells in the body, but the spiritual component of man's soul, that internal aspect of man, has to it a vertical dimension. That dimension is the praeternatural realm--Heaven, Hell, Purgatory--the realm in which that part of man which is his spirit, the 'Divine Spark,' resides, even while man's soul remains embodied on this earth. When man dies, his whole soul leaves earth and enters the praeternatural realm; and following the Last Judgment, his body can traverse Heaven and Earth (Purgatory becomes useless; those in Hell are imprisoned).
That is to say, man has a spiritual dimension, and the existence of this dimension necessitates a belief in Heaven (and Hell, and Purgatory).
And God said.

What makes you think Larry cares about humans?

A God who is the ultimate principle, who is omniscient and omnipresent and omnipotent, must necessarily be perfect; meaning that He has the perfection called goodness, and thus cares for His creations.
(This also serves as a good refutation of the (psuedo-)Gnostic view that the world was created by an evil divine entity, with the True God being a perfect being removed or hidden from those living in the world. God is 'hidden' in a different sense.)

How is this obvious?

If you were familiar with theology--which you obviously aren't--you'd see how obvious it is.

If the truth of Catholic theology is self-evident, then how do you explain heresy?

Self-evident does not mean it is simplistic. Theology is tremendously complex, and God Himself is in a sense complex. Take the concept of the Trinity, for example: three persons who share one Being. Simple, insofar as God is but one principle, yet complex, insofar as this is actually fairly difficult to understand.
So it is self-evident, yet complex; and most people being morons, easily persuaded by rhetoric, easily confused by bastardizing passages from the Bible from the context of the Bible, easily giving in to their pathological desire for a dumbed-down or more individualistic notion of God--most people being morons, heresies are fairly common.

[Starr]

Originally Posted by Deconstructionist

I have never in my entire life subscribed to religion. In fact, I still haven't read much of the Bible, although I have read some parts of it assigned to me as coursework in various political theory classes. This might come as a surprise to many people seeing how I was raised in the Bible Belt of all places. I was brought up in a thoroughly secular household though. My father is a marine biologist (who also happens to be enamored with everything dinosaur) and has always held organized religion in contempt. I have entertained the possibility of exploring religion before, mostly out of intellectual and historical curiosity (some individual Christians interest me), but I can't seriously believe in creation, miracles, sacraments or other religious nonsense anymore han I can believe in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.

My parents are what could be called "cultural Christians" not too much substance, they claim to believe and they celebrate all of the holidays and that is about it. My paternal grandparents, especially my grandfather and his family were much more devout. My grandfather's brother was a minister and two of his sisters were nuns(my grandfather and his brother were not Catholic, while the two women were, which seems somewhat strange) My parents didn't even feel it was necessary to have me baptised, which my grandparents thought was truly awful.

I have been on and off(mostly off) most of my life. But there has been some very strong "on" times. I would call myself an agnostic these days.