Why does England not have sectarianism like Scotland and Northern Ireland?

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Petr

They have decayed in the course of time:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north306.html

I know it's not fair to tar all Methodists with this brush but broadly speaking these middle class Dissenter types can be very unreliable as soon as they feel personally secure enough to make a grand and public gesture of generosity with the property of someone else.

This old article posted by L. Ron Hubbard gives a practical example of lapsed Methodists in action:
http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48826

It was a "non-flag," representing the triumph of a new elite, "the New Canadian Establishment," the "Emancipated Canadian Methodist" and "mute mediocre Methodist mannikin" public service, a branch of the "Finishing School system for Wesleyans" through which Pearson and others had risen to prominence (Symons 1967, 83, 144). In the eyes of legitimist loyalism, the unimaginative Maple Leaf embodied the smalltown anglophone lower middle class, "the Honest Ontario Yeoman; the Methodist Grit Farmer Squatter-circa 1850!"

[Ignatz]

That's an interesting article because it shows that the quarrel over the flag was not an Anglo-French dispute, but a dispute between different Anglo-Canadian visions of Canada. The French were passive bystanders in all of this. They already had a flag of their own and didn't care if the "English" changed theirs.

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by L. Ron Hubbard

That's an interesting article because it shows that the quarrel over the flag was not an Anglo-French dispute, but a dispute between different Anglo-Canadian visions of Canada. The French were passive bystanders in all of this. They already had a flag of their own and didn't care if the "English" changed theirs.

Yes and the admirable Quebecers like Levesque and Laurendeau were the ones who said the proposed flag was charmless and lacked any links to history and Canada's founding peoples. It was the Balliol College, LSE, New Statesman reading types versus the rest of Anglo Canada. The Red Tory George Grant gets a mention too:

George Grant criticized the Tories' paucity of academic connections, and in 1965 almost dedicated Lament for a Nation to de Gaulle, the dirigiste conservative nationalist with a certaine idée of his country and a policy of grandeur, who was Grant's "favourite living politician" (Grant 1996, 224).

Here's an article on Grant, Micheal Ignatieff's uncle:

....Two days after her death, the Liberal Party, led by Mike Pearson, combined with the other opposition parties to bring down the Conservative government of John Diefenbaker. The issue on which Diefenbaker fell was his refusal to allow American nuclear weapons – the Bomarc missile – on Canadian soil.

In another single, defining moment – with the severing of the last link with his ancestors, the perceived sellout of Canada by an old friend and the introduction of American weapons onto Canadian soil – Grant saw what he must do. Over the next year, he composed Lament for a Nation , a 97-page polemic that was, as he put it, “a celebration of ... the memory of that tenuous hope that was the principle of my ancestors.”....

The thesis of Lament for a Nation was simple and stark. Canada had gone from colony to nation to colony, from imperial subservience to Britain to imperial subservience to the United States. In the process, it had lost its identity and its soul. Its disappearance was only a matter of time.

But this was not all. The new empire of capitalism and commerce subverted all the smaller, local and provincial attachments that once went by the name of love of country.
....
“the officials of External Affairs had mostly been educated in the twilight skepticism of Oxford liberalism.” In Grant's hands, “liberalism” became a catch-all term of abuse, a synonym for value-free secularism and supine acquiescence to the American takeover.
...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...icle984707.ece

Here's Levesque giving a very friendly report on de Gaulle's 1960 visit to Canada (in French):
http://archives.radio-canada.ca/poli...l/clips/15823/

Similarly, the October Crisis was almost entirely an internal Quebec clash with Anglo Canada wringing its collective hands as spectators. It was essentially the collège educated class of Quebec trying to put the lid on a terror campaign by the blue-collar FLQ. The murder of Pierre Laporte by the FLQ had Prime Minister Trudeau and Montreal mayor Jean Drapeau use martial law and Rene Levesque trying to keep things calm. The technocrat Robert Bourassa sort of went into hiding but was still a character in the drama in the role of Premier of Quebec.

Trudeau, Drapeau and Levesque in that order, all in English:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-Oia6N5600 

[Errigal]

From that article by Michael Ignatieff I linked to above:

The third mistake was that he gave up on his country at exactly the moment when it roused itself to action. At the moment of Lament 's appearance, Canada went through the most extraordinary reinvention of its identity in history. And to no one's surprise but his own, much of the impetus behind this was inspired by the party he detested, the Liberal Party of Canada. In the 20 years after Lament for a Nation was published, Canada staged Expo 67, the most triumphant affirmation of Canadian pride before or since; we had the Quiet Revolution and the resurgent reaffirmation of Quebec identity in North America; we had the promotion of official bilingualism; the modern Canadian welfare state – medicare and the Canada Pension Plan – was created, distinguishing us ever more sharply from the United States; we had the repatriation of the Canadian Constitution, the next-to-last symbol of our dependency on the British, and the creation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, incarnating a distinctive national rights culture; and we gave ourselves a national anthem and a flag. And last but not least, we opened our doors to immigration from the four corners of the world, transforming the population and internationalizing our identity as never before.

We are still taking the measures of these changes, but no reasonable person can conclude that the Canadian identity is weaker now than it was in 1965. Yes, we've gone into free trade with the United States and, as we did so, we feared assimilation, loss of identity and loss of sovereignty. Can we honestly say these fears have been realized?

CAPITALISM IS A BOON TO NATIONALISM

And as for George's larger argument about the impact of global consumer capitalism on national consciousness in general, the remarkable feature of modernity is not the erosion of local, national attachments, but, on the contrary, the reassertion of ethnicity, language and race as markers of national identity in the modern world.

To paraphrase Isaiah Berlin, the bent twig of national identity, pushed down by the forces of global commerce, the American way of life and communist tyranny, snapped back with the end of the Cold War, and everywhere you looked – whether it was the former Yugoslavia, Quebec, the Basque country, Scotland or the Middle East – a passionate resurgence of ethnic, religious, tribal and local identities had rewritten the history Grant had thought was leading us to imperial domination and cultural uniformity.

So he was wrong. Wrong. Wrong again.

Good old Ignatieff, a post-nationalist BBC, Harvard, Guardian, sweetheart. The "humanitarian interventionist" telling anyone who'll listen that his uncle was "wrong. Wrong and Wrong again." Well Iggy got his arse handed to him in the recent election; brought the Liberal Party lower than it had eve been since Confederation. Looks like what Iggy was selling people weren't buying.

[Delmac]

Originally Posted by L. Ron Hubbard

Liverpool was originally a Catholic team and Everton Protestant, for example.

I don't think this is really correct. Both teams were formed by Protestants. People tend to think Liverpool must be Catholic because of the relationship with Celtic, but I am pretty sure that is a late 20th century phenomenon.

Certainly I have heard many scousers protest that Everton must be the Catholic team because it is the one "real Liverpudlians" support. But then why the fondness for "When the Saints Go Marching In?"

The one thing we may be sure of is that the Nihilist team is Tranmere Rovers.

[Delmac]

One other possible reason for the lack of sectarianism in England (outwith Liverpool, always an exception in any case) is the good old English lack of vertical solidarity.

IIRC, Newman is said to have found the working-class Irish who comprised the bulk of hi co-religionists after he crossed the Tiber, less than sympathique. At a very much less historically significant level, I know that my own father, despite being educated at a Jesuit-run school (this was a condition of his mother being allowed to marry his protestant father in a catholic church), was forbidden to play with his working-class Irish classmates. This despite his mother's Irish father. Presumably the fear was that he might devolve into some kind of "Punch" stage Irishman if not isolated from his co-ethnics.

[Ignatz]

Interesting. I've had this notion since I was a kid. I'm not sure where I picked it up.

[Delmac]

Originally Posted by L. Ron Hubbard

Interesting. I've had this notion since I was a kid. I'm not sure where I picked it up.

It seems to be quite widely believed outside Merseyside. Always fun to remind plastic paddy/scouser twofers (there are a few of them) that their beloved club owes its existence to lodge members.

Here is a rather touching account of a 12 July March from a Liverpool FC forum. I am a bit of a sucker for scouse sentimentality, I'm afraid, tho' I don't endorse every sentiment expressed therein.

I was born into the community and the area to which you refer. Dryden Street is the last street sign you see on your left before you enter the tunnel from Scotland Road and that was where I was brought up.

As a kid I was well aware that there was an evil legion of gargoyles that dwelt just across Great Homer Street, which was a borderline between Cats and Dogs (Cat'lics and Proddy dogs), and to cross that green line and venture up the hill to Netherfield Road - especially on the dreaded 'twelfth' - was to open oneself up to the forces of Satan.

Priests would advise, indeed demand, that we stayed away from the celebrations of the Orange folk. Our teachers and our parental guides , particularly the granny and grandad element, tried to terrify us with grim tales of the doings of the "King Billy bastards". They attacked Catholics, spat on nuns, burned churches and, worst of all, prevented Catholics from getting jobs in Tate and Lyle's. Fucking hell! I really wanted to see these bad bastards in action. So, one 12th of July, a couple of friends and myself went off to see this legion of the damned coming home from their day of human sacrifice in Southport.

What a fucking let down! Loads of people with these orange streamers lined the route. We met other kids from our school (All Souls) there. The atmosphere was quite cheery and completely without any undertone of bloodlust. It was shite! Until the bands came along. Then it livened up.

Big fat fuckers seemed to lead every band, wellying a big drum and drunkenly dancing as they pounded out some fevered rhythm. Behind them marched the flute players, the accordionists, the slightly underfed and simple looking triangle players, all dressed like versions of Donald Duck or picture house commisionaires.

Then came young girls, dressed in orangey tinted dresses, not playing any instruments, just walking sullenly behind the superstar musicians. Two girls were dressed as King Billy and Queen Mary. Billy waved what looked like a real sword. Another lodge actually had King Billy on a real horse. It was all very strange to me, but not threatening. I actually liked the music. One band played 'The Sash' as they passed and the onlookers started singing the words, until the next band drowned them out with 'When The Saints Go Marching In'. And the banners - what the fuck was a 1690 Boyne? A car or a sewing machine?

After a while of watching this parade of what struck me as odd looking folk, we decided to sod off home. As we approached Roscommon Street school 'CofE Primary' a group of lads stood by the railings surrounding the playground. They walked towards us. Oh fuck! Here we go, I thought. We stopped as they came up to us. Their leader, a big, scruffy, hard looking bastard spoke. "Can youse gerra ball?" One of our mates had a Frido. "Yeh. Why?". The spokesman looked puzzled. "So we can play footy". Of course, what else could it be for?

One of our lads went off to get the ball. We talked with our new acquaintances. They went to this particular school - they were Prods. In return for their honesty we told them that we went to All Souls. No reaction from them. One of them had a ciggy. He lit it and offered those of us who smoked a drag. I smoked. Like ourselves, some of them were Evertonians and some Liverpudlians. The ball arrived, we climbed over the railings and organized ourselves into two teams, both comprised of Catholics and Protestants, Reds and Blues.

We played till it became too dark to play anymore. When we climbed back out of the playground we said a few cursory taras and see yers. Then we drifted off home.

Of course there would probably have been less friendly coming togethers of the faiths that night. But I can honestly say that that first friendship with Protestants was the template for all my future meetings with our neighbours of other faiths. Maybe we were lucky that we came along at the tail end of the real antagonisms that once existed in our area. Maybe we just didn't have any real 'faith' to begin with, I know I certainly don't have too much time for religion these days.

The Lodge still march today but they are a mere rump compared to the hordes of my youth. Frido footballs have long since vanished, I stopped smoking in 1986 and the lads that played football that night in Roscommon Street schoolyard are now strangers I may have passed on the streets many times over the years. Some are probably dead. Yet that night will live with me. Liverpool has grown up and so have I. And I'm proud of the fact that religious bigotry is being consigned to fading memories and, one day, will not exist at all. Glasgow may take a little longer. And maybe someone should throw a ball to the Muslims and the Jews.

[Delmac]

Heh, another post from the same fella recounting a Liverpool tale of a young Brendan Behan:

Brendan Behan stated that he had never met a bigger shower of bastards than the 'Liverpool Irish'. Apparently in a fit of who knows fucking what he decided to come to Liverpool to do some completely independent IRA-ing. Before he had struck any blows for the republic he was arrested, apparently in possession of explosives. He was convinced that he had been grassed up by the locals. And he was rght.

Behan, intelligent and commited as he was, knew fuck all about Liverpool so headed for the Scotland Road area which he understood to be the home of the Irish Catholic community. Unaware that there was a an irregular boundary between the faiths created by Great Homer Street, he took a room in Robsart Street, which was full of Protestants and Lodge loyalists. It wasn't too long before this confident, outspoken Dub', with a fondness for drink and Irish folksongs was lifted.

It was the Liverpool Irish who had given him up, but the Liverpool Irish of a Norn sensibility. Young Brendan wasn't aware of the schism that existed in the community but learned about it the hard way.

As I say, Behan acted independently and was considered a bit of a loose cannon by older IRA types. The story does suggest, though, that Liverpool wasn't considered immune from attacks by Republicans. Maybe Scotland Road's divided community came to the city's aid on this occasion, but I'm not all sure that Brendan wouldn't have suffered the same fate had he took refuge amongst the Catholics. He was sixteen and already had a degree in twatishness back in Dublin, so it was always going to go wrong for him in Liverpool, particularly as he didn't know the natives.

[Delmac]

Finally, youtube for Alan Bleasdale's film No Surrender touching on sectarianism in Liverpool in the 80s:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=928Ere5UwOI